The Official Shawn Michaels Thread
- Thread starter Little Jerry Lawler
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Because he's not as intresting or polarizing as Cena & Triple H.
Anyway, HBK returning is pointless. He's not going to have a feud with Jack Swagger now is he. In reality he'll have yet another feud with Triple H, Cena or Orton.
WrestleMania can't come soon enough if he's really going to retire.
In my humble opinion Michaels is the best total package of a wrestler that the WWE (or any other wrestling promotion) ever produced. I hate to be quoting (or paraphrasing) his DVD, but I honestly think he's peerless in a league of his own.
That said, he has the absolutely WORST inverted atomic drop the business has ever seen. But he keeps using it in all of his matches for some reason...
That said, he has the absolutely WORST inverted atomic drop the business has ever seen. But he keeps using it in all of his matches for some reason...
wow just wow. What has HBK done that Cena or HHH hasn't? Let me break it down here for you.In regards to Hunter I love the guy, think he is the 2nd best overall talent in the bussiness behind HBK. I thought he was great when he came into the WWF back in the mid 90's and knew he would be a STAR.
That being said you want to talk about what HBK has done that HHH hasn't? First of all HHH can thank HBK every day that he is where he is today. If not for the Clique, and DX how long would it have taken (if it had at all) for McMahon to realize how great HHH was? If he tried to push the WWF towards the attitude era without HBK and did the stuff they were able to go together by himself he would have gotten fired. End of story.
So again in summary HHH owes HBK just about everything he has right now. He had talent, but without HBK the man never would have reached where he did.
As far as Cena goes....if you really think he matches up at all with HBK then you don't even need to debate back and forth with me about this. In every area in regards to talent that you want to measure it Cena couldn't lace HBK's boots. Across the board, wrestling ability, the ability to tell a story in the ring, mic work, and the list goes on and on.
i have no doubt Cena loves the business, but everything Cena has been accomplishing is not due to his talent. It's due to the WWE shoving him down our throats like they did Hogan.
You talk about how HBK didn't draw money when he was champ, take a look at the show around him at that time. They can thank HBK that the WWE was even still around for the attitude era, cause if he wasn't as good as he was then they would have folded. You put that belt on him today, and you see what kind of money he brings in.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
In regards to Hunter I love the guy, think he is the 2nd best overall talent in the bussiness behind HBK. I thought he was great when he came into the WWF back in the mid 90's and knew he would be a STAR.
That being said you want to talk about what HBK has done that HHH hasn't? First of all HHH can thank HBK every day that he is where he is today. If not for the Clique, and DX how long would it have taken (if it had at all) for McMahon to realize how great HHH was? If he tried to push the WWF towards the attitude era without HBK and did the stuff they were able to go together by himself he would have gotten fired. End of story.
So again in summary HHH owes HBK just about everything he has right now. He had talent, but without HBK the man never would have reached where he did.
As far as Cena goes....if you really think he matches up at all with HBK then you don't even need to debate back and forth with me about this. In every area in regards to talent that you want to measure it Cena couldn't lace HBK's boots. Across the board, wrestling ability, the ability to tell a story in the ring, mic work, and the list goes on and on.
i have no doubt Cena loves the business, but everything Cena has been accomplishing is not due to his talent. It's due to the WWE shoving him down our throats like they did Hogan.
You talk about how HBK didn't draw money when he was champ, take a look at the show around him at that time. They can thank HBK that the WWE was even still around for the attitude era, cause if he wasn't as good as he was then they would have folded. You put that belt on him today, and you see what kind of money he brings in.
You do realize that Rock, Austin, Foley, Kane, and Taker were in the Attitude Era with HHH, right? So HHH wouldn't have to do it by himself and he did pretty well when HBK was out for those four years. HBK should be thanking HHH for those great matches at Summerslam, Bad Blood, and the Royal Rumble.
Tell me about Michael's great mic work because I never saw it. Give me three Shawn Michael's promos that are better than Cena's. You would have a hard time finding them. Cena can tell a story in the ring better than anybody and that includes HBK and if you bring up HBK/Angle, that was not storytelling rather than a spotfest. You can't prove that without HBK, the WWE would have folded because one superstar gone wouldn't make the business fold because Vince wouldn't have let it happened.
It's been stated that HBK doesn't want to be champion. Being champion entails you have to be on RAW every week and work house shows. Shawn Michaels doesn't work too many house shows and it's about time for him to start putting people over, which he hasn't done. I would love to see him feud with Swagger or Miz because it would help them without hurting HBK one single bit. If he is needed by Vince to go to Smackdown if Hardy leaves, then he should go to Smackdown because that what is best for the company and HBK is a company man from what I've heard.
No one can deny that Rock, Austin, Foley, Kane, and 'Taker were huge parts of the Attitude era, but it also can't be denied that HBK had alot to do with HHH's success during those 4 years that he was out. Simply put, if you take away the original DX, then who knows if HHH would still be around today. I do agree, however, that when HBK came back into the WWE, HHH did a very good job of making him relevant with the fans again.
HBK on the mic is just as good as any other superstar in the business, especially when him and HHH do their DX cuts. Go back and look at some of his promos when he was fueding with Diesal or when he was fueding with Austin, those were great. Also, I'm not going to give you a great big long list of Michaels matches that had great storytelling in them, all you have to do is look at The Brain's list, pick anyone of those matches, they were all great.
It is true about HBK not wanting to be the champion and why should he? He is 44 yrs old. I think that it is better for him to not be the champion and, rather, let the young guys come up through the ranks. The only reason that he should be the champion is if WWE has no one else to take the title, but then HBK would be reduced to a transition champion and he is way to good for that. I do agree that he needs to start putting over younger talent, it would be great for WWE to have new stars and who better to do it then The Showstopper, The Main Event, The Headliner, The Icon, etc etc.?
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
I looked through The Brain's list and the only ones I consider great are the HIAC with Undertaker, against HHH at Summerslam, and his WM one with Jericho. I take into account the storytelling during the match, the in-ring wrestling, and how each competitor played their part.
I know people will say on here that he helped Shelton Benjamin and Mr. Kennedy and so forth. Benjamin hasn't done anything relevant since then and we all know what happened to Kennedy.
The problem with a debate like this is no1 wants to be neutral....
How can anyone deny that shawn michaels is one of the greatest in ring performers of all time? That is a fact,but he has also been very fortunate to work with other great workers at the best time,that is what shawn has always been good at. Workin with guys when the time is right,he works with the best when they are at their best. It is arguable that at the time he worked with angle their was no greater in ring technician,hence the reason they put him with shawn. when orton was going over as a super heel back in 2007 they put him with shawn, this has been a common occurrence because wwe are not stupid. they know that shawn can work with all guys of all shapes,sizes and abilities.
It is smart business,because shawn really is the best,he can work with anybody,but it is not as one sided as people make out. people often forget abt razor in THAT ladder match,they even forget abt brett at WM12 cus he was as gud as ever during that match,yet everyone raves abt shawn. He is the best,but he has been fortunate to work with the best arnd at the time
How can anyone deny that shawn michaels is one of the greatest in ring performers of all time? That is a fact,but he has also been very fortunate to work with other great workers at the best time,that is what shawn has always been good at. Workin with guys when the time is right,he works with the best when they are at their best. It is arguable that at the time he worked with angle their was no greater in ring technician,hence the reason they put him with shawn. when orton was going over as a super heel back in 2007 they put him with shawn, this has been a common occurrence because wwe are not stupid. they know that shawn can work with all guys of all shapes,sizes and abilities.
It is smart business,because shawn really is the best,he can work with anybody,but it is not as one sided as people make out. people often forget abt razor in THAT ladder match,they even forget abt brett at WM12 cus he was as gud as ever during that match,yet everyone raves abt shawn. He is the best,but he has been fortunate to work with the best arnd at the time
Shawn is the one who laid the ground work for attitude. He was the one in Vince's ear about changing directions. The Ringmaster, Rocky Maivia, and thee blueblood benefited from that. I'm not trying to short change these guys on their accomplishments, but at the time it was Shawn who had the influence to initiate the change.
I've always thought Shawn was very good on the mic. I'm not saying he was the best, but still good.
Shawn doesn't need to be champion or be at all the house shows. He shouldn't have to be. I think he is at a point where Vince needs him more than he needs Vince. I'm not saying that Vince NEEDS him, but I think Shawn would be perfectly content to call it quits and stay home with the family. As far as him putting others over, I think WWE should be careful here. Do you really think the Miz is in Shawn's league. This would be like Flair putting over Kenny Dykstra. We saw how that worked out. I could see Swagger. He looks to be a future star.
Regardless of his contributions to attitude, his mic skills, or his reduced schedule, it's hard to deny his work in the ring. I could see how you don't thinke he's the best ever. I can even see why you think he's a little overrated. Despite that he's still had some classic and entertaining matches. What are some of your favorite matches in WWE? I'm curious what kind of match you find entertaining if you don't like HBK matches.
Cena vs. Edge vs. Show better than HBK vs. Taker? Seriously?
Yeah thats worrying, because Wm25 was a VERY poor mania,and the only bright spot on the card was taker/hbk.
The triple threat was better than orton/HHH but to say that it was better than taker/hbk is a bit of a stretch. Edge put in a very good performance takin bumps from both guys,but ultimately the styles didnt mesh and it looked a bit of a mess.
The triple threat was better than orton/HHH but to say that it was better than taker/hbk is a bit of a stretch. Edge put in a very good performance takin bumps from both guys,but ultimately the styles didnt mesh and it looked a bit of a mess.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
I enjoyed watching Cena/Edge/Show more than I did HBK and Taker. I've watched that HBK/Taker match plenty of times and all I saw was Sweet Chin Music, lay around, Tombstone, lay around and so forth. To me that was 2nd worst of Undertaker's past five WM matches.
Some of my favorite matches are Undertaker vs. Angle at No Way Out 2006, Taker vs. Orton at Armageddon 2004, Orton vs. Edge at Vengeance 2004, and Benoit vs. Angle at Royal Rumble 2003.
HBK can do wonders for the Miz or Swagger. I thought that was how generally midcarders become future champions besides winning a midcard belt. Cena helped put Swagger over and I don't see why HBK can't do the same. He probably isn't going to be world champion anymore so he can help put the younger guys over before he retires.
HBK more than likely will put the younger guys over,hes done it in the past and to great effect.
The match at wm25 was brilliantly structured and had a lot of depth. The live audience were visibly captivated and the atmosphere surrounding the match was obvious even if u were watching it at home. There was a lot more depth to it then sweet chin music,lay around,tombstone,lay around. It was brilliantly crafted,and i for one during the contest wasnt even sure if taker was definitely going to win,thats the sign of a great match and great showmen
The match at wm25 was brilliantly structured and had a lot of depth. The live audience were visibly captivated and the atmosphere surrounding the match was obvious even if u were watching it at home. There was a lot more depth to it then sweet chin music,lay around,tombstone,lay around. It was brilliantly crafted,and i for one during the contest wasnt even sure if taker was definitely going to win,thats the sign of a great match and great showmen
Good choices for your favorite matches. I still prefer HBK, especially in the
90's, but to each his own. I'm going to have to watch HBK vs. Taker from mania again. I was at mania and I can tell you being in the middle of the live crowd for that match was awesome. A hot live crowd can always add more to a match.
I'm all for HBK putting Swagger over. Swagger is the future and this could be a good feud. I disagree on the Miz. It's not that I don't want to see Shawn put others over. I just don't think much of the Miz. I don't see him as a main event guy.
You know I am going to have to disagree with you on the match. There was definately more to it than what you say. It was a perfectly structured match and each man played there part very well. Shawn, the quicker more agile one, spent most of the match running from Taker, going after his legs and such. 'Taker stalked HBK and when he finally got his hands on him, he imposed his will. That was their parts and that is how it was played.
Great choices for matches. Each of those matches were great(IMO). Especially the 'Taker vs Angle match at No Way Out. I put that amongst my favorite 'Taker matches.
I do think that Swagger could benefit from a HBK fued more than the Miz. If the Miz was to beat HBK in a match, I would go ape shit, however Swagger and HBK could tear the house down in a match or a series of matches. It would be outstanding and it would solidify Swagger as a future main eventer.
Shawn Michaels is the best wrestler in the history of WWE. I know most of us won't recognize PWI rankings, but since 1994 (including a 4 year "retirement" from HBK), he has 9 PWI Matches of the Year, soon to 10 when Undertaker-HBK wins for their match this year at WM25. The only debatable match in this 9 year run is 1995's match of the year against Diesel from WM11...that PPV sucked in general, so I guess that wins by default. He is no longer a wrestler involved in the title picture, he is a feud wrestler, which puts him in a completely different class of wrestlers. He doesn't need to be at the top of the card because he works unbelieveable angles against great talent and tells the stories that keep us watching. No one can tell me that any story in 2009 has been better than the 6 week program he worked with the Undertaker. HHH-Orton was good up until WM25, but that is the 2nd best story this year, which really says something. Remember to enjoy what HBK does when he returns. You won't be seeing it for much longer.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
Michaels is not the best wrestler in the history of the business as that honor goes to Hogan but we can discuss that later. The PWI is mostly a joke when it comes to their match of the year and especially when it comes to HBK. Let's go through what shouldn't have been MITY concerning good ole Michaels.
2005- This honor should have went to Undertaker/Orton in the same PPV as Angle/HBK. The Michaels-Angle match turned into a spotfest halfway through and involved little to no storytelling whatsoever. Orton/Undertaker was a much better match that was great the whole way through.
2006- This was a flat-out joke right here. Undertaker and Angle had a epic match at No Way Out and Vince McMahon-HBK was passable at best. Maybe because it was Vince in there that they gave it match of the year.
2008- Batista and Cena was ten times better than HBK/Flair. The HBK-Flair match was basically two old guys trying to carry each other to a great match but failed miserably. If it wasn't for the retirement angle (which was awful), this match would have been forgotten.
2009- So far this is considered match of the year by most, but not by me. I would take any Jericho-Mysterio match they have had over the Wrestlemania match. Jericho and Mysterio put on three or four great matches against each other and I was excited for every minute of their matches, more so than HBK/Taker.
So I don't take what the PWI has to say concerning match of the year with a grain of salt because they are usually wrong most of the time.
I usually agree with the PWI match of the year, but not always. I voted for Angle vs. Taker in 2006. Although I think HBK vs. Y2J should have won in 2003. So I think take one away from HBK in 2006, but give him one that he didn't get in 2003 and it balances out. I don't think he should have won in 93 either. That should have been Bret Hart vs. Mr. Perfect from King of the Ring. I would also say HBK vs. Jarrett was a lot better than HBK vs. Diesel in 95. Just for the record the fans vote for the PWI awards (supposedly?)
Oh wow, I'm dying to read this one.
Great choice for you to pick 'Taker vs Orton. That was a great match, but it wasn't the best match of their fued. What about the other two Angle ve HBK matches of that year? The 30 min iron man match on Raw was outstanding. I'm not even going to say anything about their WM 21 match because all you are going to say is, "Blah blah spotfest blah blah."
Wow! Hell has frozen over. We actually agree on something. Angle vs. Taker was a much better matchl; in ever way, shape, or form. You may actually have a point here.
Batista and Cena was a joke of a match. Especially since Cena was hurt. All this match was, was high impact move after high impact move. There is nothing worse than seeing two big guys with limited moves trying to make a decent match. I don't care if the story was told or not, this match blows. BTW, about the retirement angle, aren't you the one saying that its all about storytelling and entertaining? Well the story in the match was told, the torch for best ever was passed to HBK and the retirement angle was very entertaining leading in to the match.
Mysterio vs Jericho, now those were some great matches, however, they were not epic. Now you put, arguably(anyone else besides you would agree), the two best in the WWE right now in a WM match just to see who is better? It was epic and entertaining. The weeks leading into the match were very entertaining, especially when HBK went all anti 'Taker with the white get up.
This is just your opinion. I'm sure that they have some merit as they remain the most popular wrestling magazine out there.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
Concering the Cena/Batista match, I would rather see two guys with "limited movesets" as you call it having a good match than two old guys trying to have a good match. I believe Cena was hurt during the last part of the match but the rest of was still better than HBK/Flair. The HBK/Flair was like the Hogan/Rock match before it. It wasn't a great match, just a great hyped match. My criteria for a great match is different than yours so naturally we are going to disagree on this.
TheIconHBK
Dark Match Jobber
the wrestlemania ladder match was amazing both HBK n' Razor on top of there game personally i preferred there second one at summerslam 95 but it hardly gets a mension
HBK n' JJ intercontinental title from in your house 2 was another superb match
also HBK had a serious of WWF title matches across ther european tours with macho man randy savage again high quality matches
this BS that HBK is overated because of five moves thats how wrestling is now cena uses same 5 moves as does triple h and everyone else
not trying to argue with anyone and imo HBK has always put on high quality matches with all sorts of guys and when he does come back you know the crowd reaction is gonna be wild
HBK n' JJ intercontinental title from in your house 2 was another superb match
also HBK had a serious of WWF title matches across ther european tours with macho man randy savage again high quality matches
this BS that HBK is overated because of five moves thats how wrestling is now cena uses same 5 moves as does triple h and everyone else
not trying to argue with anyone and imo HBK has always put on high quality matches with all sorts of guys and when he does come back you know the crowd reaction is gonna be wild
1. Without HBK there was never going to be an attitude era, this is a fact. McMahon has said as much. "The Ring Master", and "Rocky Maivia" would have never got the chance to be Stone Cold and the Rock. DX never would have happened, and HHH never would have gotten to be himself like he did with Shawn. Even after HBK kept pressing Vince he still didn't like it, but he respected Shawn enough to try it, and look what happened.
"Tell me about Michael's great mic work because I never saw it. Give me three Shawn Michael's promos that are better than Cena's. You would have a hard time finding them."
2. I can easily name 3 promos just since Shawn has come back and lost his edge on the mic in 2002. His promo's during the Hogan fued completely over shadow anything Cena has done. All of his promo's during that fued are better than anything Cena has ever done. Nevermind how much better his old school (98 and prior) promo's were than Cena's.
"Cena can tell a story in the ring better than anybody and that includes HBK"
Um yeah. Obviously you are a Cena fan. I can name 20 wrestlers that are far better in the ring and tell a better story than Cena. Cena isn't even in the same league as Shawn right now, the HBK in the 90's was light years ahead of anything Cena can ever hope to accomplish when it comes to telling a story in the ring. Anyone who even tries to say Cena is better in the ring than someone like Shawn either is joking or isn't a fan of when wrestling used to be good.Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
1. Without HBK there was never going to be an attitude era, this is a fact. McMahon has said as much. "The Ring Master", and "Rocky Maivia" would have never got the chance to be Stone Cold and the Rock. DX never would have happened, and HHH never would have gotten to be himself like he did with Shawn. Even after HBK kept pressing Vince he still didn't like it, but he respected Shawn enough to try it, and look what happened.
"Tell me about Michael's great mic work because I never saw it. Give me three Shawn Michael's promos that are better than Cena's. You would have a hard time finding them."
2. I can easily name 3 promos just since Shawn has come back and lost his edge on the mic in 2002. His promo's during the Hogan fued completely over shadow anything Cena has done. All of his promo's during that fued are better than anything Cena has ever done. Nevermind how much better his old school (98 and prior) promo's were than Cena's.
"Cena can tell a story in the ring better than anybody and that includes HBK"
So tell me how did DX actually revolutionize or impacted the Attitude Era. I personally think DX was just a rip-off of the nWo and it was obvious to see.
List these mythical 20 wrestlers that are better in the ring and tell a better than story than Cena. I will be anticipating your response to that one. Cena is better and has been better overall the last three or four than HBK. If you can see me right now, I'm typing this with a straight face.
Without DX there would have been no beer drinking, flipping the bird, swearing, or anything else the attitude had. The faction may have been a rip off and paraody of the nWo, but the ideas behind the attitude era that eventually became what it was came from Shawn. You don't believe me? How about reading Bret Hart's book, he blames Shawn for what wrestling became.
Would you like this all time or current? I will do both for you.
All time not in any order:
1. HBK
2. Flair
3. Bret Hart
4. HHH
5. Randy Savage
6. Sting
7. Scott Hall
8. Owen Hart
9. Steve Austin
10. The Rock
11. The Undertaker
12. Jericho
13. WCW and ECW's Rey Mysterio (what WWE has done to him is terrible)
14. RVD
15. Raven
16. Taz
17. Sabu
18. Ted DiBiase
19. Jake Roberts
20. Mr. Perfect
I could go on if you would like?
20 currently wrestling not in any order:
1. HBK
2. Angle
3. HHH
4. Orton
5. Jericho
6. AJ Styles
7. Taker.
8. Edge
9. Christian
10. CM Punk
11. Morrison
12. Jeff Hardy
13. Batista
14. MVP
15. Kennedy (he is still active and will end up in TNA once his non compete clause is up)
16. Matt Hardy
17. Shelton Benjamin
18. Somoa Joe
19. Jay Lethal
20 Christopher Daniels.
Again I could keep going if you want?
What you need to understand is that just because you are the most popular doesn't mean you are the most talented. Not everyone listed up there is considered one of the best ever, but take one look at a match like Shelton Benjamin vs. HBK and you see a match and story telling in the ring that Cena could only hope to get close to.
The only decent Cena match I have ever seen was the ones HBK carried him through.
Also if you decide to dismiss any of these I would like a reason and an example of when Cena has told a better story in the ring than the person you discredit.
I have been trying to tell people this in this thread and in the HHH thread. Idk why they can't comprehend it. Do you also agree that, without Shawn, HHH wouldn't be as popular as he is today?
I know that you could go on. Any wrestling fan should be able to go on. Great list by the way. I'm not to familiar with the TNA ones, but I am sure that they can't be as bad as Cena.
Be ready, because when it is replied to something like, "I'm sure if Cena wasn't the most talented then he wouldn't be the most popular," or, "Look at where Benjamin is today, HBK did nothing for him," will be said. But you aren't talking about putting anyone over now are you?
They will argue that Cena carried those matches and HBK was along for the ride. However, we know better.
