The Key To Making A Popular Face Is......

[SSJPhenom]

First being a popular heel. I was talking with my father yesterday, who is also a huge wrestling fan, and we started thinking; almost all of the most popular faces in the history of wrestling were popular heels before they became major faces. Stone Cold Steve Austin was a heel at first, the Rock was a heel at first, HBK, Kurt Angle, HHH, John Cena, ‘Taker, Orton, Batista, Edge, Kane, Foley, Big Show, Punk, Flair, Macho Man, Diesel, and so on were all major heels before they became major faces.

What got us thinking about that is the way that the WWE is booking Roman Reigns. They’re booking him as this underdog type of super hero and it’s just not working. First of all, he doesn’t look at all like somebody that would be an underdog and also, WWE is not letting him be the bad ass that he looks like he is. So if WWE wanted to get Reigns over as a huge face that could carry the company in the future; why not do what a lot of us thought they were going to do and have Reigns turn heel? It would’ve been perfect to have him win the title at Survivor Series by selling out to the Authority and then have him feud with Ambrose for the next couple of months. They would’ve had their top heel and top face from that moment for the for seeable future and they would’ve had a pretty interesting storyline. They still could’ve had Sheamus start the League of Nations and then after they garnered some legit heat, have Sheamus cash in maybe on Ambrose after he somehow beat Reigns for the title maybe at the Royal Rumble or Elimination Chamber and then have it be a triple threat at WM between Ambrose, Reigns, and Sheamus. This is all assuming, of course, that Rollins isn’t back in time for Mania which I don’t think he will be.

What do you guys think? Is the key to being an over/popular face being an over/popular/major heel first? Does it make it easier for a person to become a popular face if they were once a major heel? Let me know your opinions.

 

[BuriedByCena]

Everyone liked Roman when he was in the shield. Why? He didn't talk much, did some power moves and kicked butt. He was the tough guy/muscle. I liked him back then.

Then WWE decided to turn him into Cena 2.0. They made him talk....big mistake. He stopped acting tough. He is bascally the exact opposite of what he should be.

I agree with you. If Roman/WWE wants him to get cheered as a mega face....he needs to be heel first to win us over. He needs to prove he doesn't suck. He needs to entertain us so we can fall in love with him.

It is 2015 and WWE just doesn't get it. Kissing babies and smiling is lame. He should be punching fans in the face as he walks down to the ring. He should be spearing people back stage like Rhyno and then spitting on them. He should be beating people with a night stick Big Bossman style.

I don't even want to talk about it anymore. WWE just bores and frustrates me. I have no idea how they plan on getting 100K people at wrestlemania with Roman leading.

 

[Jeff Deliverer of Mail]

Problem with that is, the WWE has a big issue with turning wrestlers nowadays. What is the last face/heel switch you can remember off the top of your head right now ? ( not including Big Show who averages one a year ).

I can't think of any significant change recently. It used to be done more often and at times, completely unexpected.

 

[MC_Live]

It's not necessary for someone to be a heel to become a popular babyface. Ricky Steamboat, Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, and I believe Magnum T.A. were all popular babyface without being heels first. Ricky Steamboat is the ultimate example of a career long babyface. But, more often than not, the biggest babyfaces were successful heels. I was part of a conversation just last night with a group of people in the business about what's harder, being a face or a heel.

In the modern age of wrestling, I think it's harder to get people to cheer for you than to get them to boo you. But, once you get really good at being a heel, people will cheer you. So while it isn't necessary to make a popular babyface a heel first, it's very helpful. In the case of Roman Reigns, WWE is trying to force Roman Reigns into the top spot without it being organic. If you're not of a certain level of performance, which Roman Reigns hasn't quite yet reached, then the crowd today won't accept you. I think Roman should have screwed Ambrose and become the corporate Champion at Survivor Series. That way, he could have gotten a good heel run in. If he took the time to learn and grow while not having to worry about getting the crowd on his side, I think it would do wonders in his character development.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I can't think of any significant change recently. It used to be done more often and at times, completely unexpected.

Not sure if you would consider it significant but New Day is the most recent that I can think. Lesnar went clear heel to pseudoface. Kane for what that was worth. Cesaro has bounced around. Paige clearly. Rollins over a year ago.

But I mostly agree with the OP. For the most part the smart audience want to believe they are building their own superstars and heroes. Those are the guys that get the real emotion out of people. WWE did a great job building The Shield for transition but couldn't maintain the momentum for Reigns once he became his own character, got hurt, and restarted.

Even a lot of Daniel Bryan's success came from his time as a heel. It enabled him to take his entertainment to another level and get the crowd to emotionally embrace him.

I don't think a guy has to be a heel to get there but it sure helps. A guy like Rey Mysterio didn't use a heel storyline to get to a prominent place but so many others were heel before they peaked. Jericho, Austin, The Rock is probably the best example, Cena, Orton etc.

I worry now that New Day is going to get to the next level and we lose what they are now doing. I would be happy for them but really miss the heel work they are currently doing. It you look at the amount of time they got on Raw this week, I think it is safe to argue that they a ton of non-wrestling time that would rival Cena, Rock, Vince, Authority, and Punk at their peaks.

But now I'm rambling. Yes, there is a lot of truth to the "you got to first be bad to be the best" theory. It is not a rule but it seems to be how things most often go.

 

[Navi]

What got us thinking about that is the way that the WWE is booking Roman Reigns. They’re booking him as this underdog type of super hero and it’s just not working. First of all, he doesn’t look at all like somebody that would be an underdog and also, WWE is not letting him be the bad ass that he looks like he is. So if WWE wanted to get Reigns over as a huge face that could carry the company in the future; why not do what a lot of us thought they were going to do and have Reigns turn heel? .

What do you guys think? Is the key to being an over/popular face being an over/popular/major heel first? Does it make it easier for a person to become a popular face if they were once a major heel? Let me know your opinions.

I think it's easier to be a heel than a face really, you have more to work with. You can be as nasty as you want, cheat whenever it suits you to win, and have all sorts of reinforcements at your beck and call. Being a face means you have to work within the rules, when others aren't and spend your time climbing over obstacles put in your way.

In the case of Roman Reigns, I agree with what you say, he is not an underdog. He never acted like one and certainly doesn't look like one. What they should have done was have him go after the Authority the way Ambrose went after Rollins. That got Ambrose over with the fans big time.

Reigns has this nonchalant attitude and doesn't seem to care what they do to him. Like the other night for example, when he took the WHC belt from the ring after giving Sheamus a superman punch. He should have refused to give it back when HHH asked for it. He should have demanded a match that night, not had the heel ask for one. Then HHH would and could have granted his request with the stipulation of the time limit. That would have shown that Reigns actually cares about winning this title. When the number one contender has that attitude it's hard to buy into it as a fan. It's like I want him to win it more than he does.

With Daniel Bryan they booked him as an underdog perfectly. He got in their faces and wouldn't take their shit. He battled them on every level and gave them as many problems as they gave him. Remember the YES movement and the occupy RAW? Fans saw that he wanted the title shot, and he wanted to win it at all costs, they bought into it, and got behind him in a big way.

This is what Reigns has to do, he has to show he wants it badly enough to actually do something out of character. I mentioned it on another thread, he shouldn't be standing around waiting for the next shoe to fall, he should be the one spearing HHH at every opportunity, get the Authority on the run. Show them and the fans he wants the title at all costs, and the fans will get behind him. A lot of them might not like Reigns, but they like the Authority even less, and they will end up cheering him. This standing around and waiting game is doing him no favours, he has to be a face will heelish tendencies and he's not afraid of using them if he has to, to get what he wants. If that makes any sense. It does to me.

 

[mancini999]

faces need to have an edge to them or they have a monster hill to climb for people to care about them

 

[ShinChan]

I think Yes!
Being a major heel first will most probably lead to being much over face...... We have so many examples like Daniel Bryan, John Cena, Randy Orton, Stone Cold, The Rock.....
So Yes! If you want Roman Reigns over with the crowd, make him a badass heel who talks less but beats the hell out of his opponents...

 

[MTL722]

I think it's easier to be a heel than a face really, you have more to work with. You can be as nasty as you want, cheat whenever it suits you to win, and have all sorts of reinforcements at your beck and call. Being a face means you have to work within the rules, when others aren't and spend your time climbing over obstacles put in your way.

Wrestling is funny because even though you are dead on about it being easier to be a heel than a face, all the things you listed that make wrestlers heel are what Eddie Guererro utilized to be a face. It really is all about facial expressions and intent, as well as your dance partner. Then again, Eddie was a different breed of 'sports entertainer" (ugh)

I disagree that you need to first be a heel to be a "popular" face. Bayley is an extremely popular face. Never even a subtle hint of being a heel. I think the best thing you can do to be a face is just appeal to children. Its tough for a parent to boo a wrestler that their child loves. Im not saying it doesnt happen, but how fucking strange would that look?

 

[d_henderson1810]

Everyone liked Roman when he was in the shield. Why? He didn't talk much, did some power moves and kicked butt. He was the tough guy/muscle. I liked him back then.

Then WWE decided to turn him into Cena 2.0. They made him talk....big mistake. He stopped acting tough. He is bascally the exact opposite of what he should be.

I agree with you. If Roman/WWE wants him to get cheered as a mega face....he needs to be heel first to win us over. He needs to prove he doesn't suck. He needs to entertain us so we can fall in love with him.

It is 2015 and WWE just doesn't get it. Kissing babies and smiling is lame. He should be punching fans in the face as he walks down to the ring. He should be spearing people back stage like Rhyno and then spitting on them. He should be beating people with a night stick Big Bossman style.

I don't even want to talk about it anymore. WWE just bores and frustrates me. I have no idea how they plan on getting 100K people at wrestlemania with Roman leading.

"Kissing babies and smiling is lame".

Smiling, as you put it, can get someone over, if it is a smile of insincerity or disingenuousness. Two examples I bring to the table are (1) The New Day. The New Day are hugely popular, but they play the smiling, dancing, singing goofballs. When they were faces, no-one liked them for this, but now, they are loved, because underneath, it is all varnish, and they are insincere heels who "act" like good guys.

The other one, and this surprised me, but one of the highest rating GMs ever was John Lauranitis. RAW ratings were good when he was GM, and I wonder if it is because he didn't play a straight-out heel, like Mr McMahon and others, but acted fairly, but never seeming totally trustworthy.

People like C.M. Punk just "happened" to get screwed over on his watch. but he could never be held responsible for it. He played the "snake in the grass/snake oil salemsman type", who you don't know if you can trust or not.

So, smiling and kissing babies can work, if it is not "genuine". Hell, Brother Love got heel heat for saying "I LUVVVVV YOUUUUU!"

If they ever had a politician type character in WWE, who kissed babies and smiled for the camera, the right person in the role could get massive heel heat, since people hate politicians anyway, and the character's "fakeness" would get him over more.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Wrestling is funny because even though you are dead on about it being easier to be a heel than a face, all the things you listed that make wrestlers heel are what Eddie Guererro utilized to be a face. It really is all about facial expressions and intent, as well as your dance partner. Then again, Eddie was a different breed of 'sports entertainer" (ugh)

I disagree that you need to first be a heel to be a "popular" face. Bayley is an extremely popular face. Never even a subtle hint of being a heel. I think the best thing you can do to be a face is just appeal to children. Its tough for a parent to boo a wrestler that their child loves. Im not saying it doesnt happen, but how fucking strange would that look?

Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat was popular, and never played a heel during his career (I wonder what a heel Steamboat would have been like). I do think it hindered his career because of it, though.

 

[whoopin' ass]

I think the key to a popular face is making them human. Don't go over the top and make them a superhero like Hogan or Cena. We expect them to lose sometimes but at the same time, don't go overboard. They are supposed to be there because they are top level competitors - how do we buy into that when they lose 10 matches just to win 1? They are going to fight - some days they win, some days they lose but they learn and get better each time. I think the audience needs to be able to see themselves in the person which is why Bryan is so popular - he may lose but he learns and comes back to try again, he is not huge and jacked like a HHH so people could see themselves hanging out with him somewhere. If the fan can relate to them, then they will support them. Look at Foley - fans got behind him because they could relate. Same with Austin - people get pissed at their boss like he was, we just can't go around stunning people. I think that if people see them as a person just like you and me, they are more willing to support them compared to the superheroes.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I think the key to a popular face is making them human. Don't go over the top and make them a superhero like Hogan or Cena. We expect them to lose sometimes but at the same time, don't go overboard. They are supposed to be there because they are top level competitors - how do we buy into that when they lose 10 matches just to win 1? They are going to fight - some days they win, some days they lose but they learn and get better each time. I think the audience needs to be able to see themselves in the person which is why Bryan is so popular - he may lose but he learns and comes back to try again, he is not huge and jacked like a HHH so people could see themselves hanging out with him somewhere. If the fan can relate to them, then they will support them. Look at Foley - fans got behind him because they could relate. Same with Austin - people get pissed at their boss like he was, we just can't go around stunning people. I think that if people see them as a person just like you and me, they are more willing to support them compared to the superheroes.

How many times did "Stone Cold" Steve Austin ever lose a match, or suffer a clean pinfall? Very rarely.

Does that not make him a "Superman", or do you have to act cheesy to be "Superman"?

Name me one guy Austin put over. Hell, he didn't even job to the Rock until WM19.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Well I'd be lying if I said I didn't think a very similar thought in regards to making a popular face. I don't think it's quite that easy but I think the reason why heels often become strong babyfaces is simply because you're given a lot more room to show off your skill set as a heel. Heels can get away with a lot more in the creative department, they can take more risks and they are free to try new things. Wrestling has almost always been built around a face and because of that the powers that be are going to be a lot more pickier on what that face can and can't do, they often expect the faces to uphold a certain good guy image and there's a lot of restrictions that can come with that. A lot of top faces (Hogan, Austin, Rock, Bret, Flair, Batista and Edge to name a few) have said they would much rather work a heel because they are given that freedom, they can have more fun with their character and they have more room to make it work. It's also the reason why a lot of top wrestlers do their best work as a heel, just ask CM Punk.

When it all comes down to it the fans will always gravitate to talented individuals with a developed character whether they are a face or not and if the heel has been given a chance to be more developed and show off their talents more than their face counterparts then fans are going to notice them more. At the end of the day it's really not about being a heel first, it's about being given enough freedom to get over on your own merits, it's the same reason why Zack Ryder got so over doing an internet show.

 

[Checkmate]

While I do agree that one of the best ways to make a huge babyface is to turn a mega heel, there are other ways, they just have to be done correctly.

Somebody above mentioned Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat as a guy who was babyface for his entire career. Steamboat was certainly over, but this was in part due to the heels he got to work with. Babyfaces need heels. The better the heel, the better the babyface is for it, and vice-versa.

Currently, Bayley is an incredibly over babyface. Granted, she's relatively new, and is only really exposed to the NXT audience, but still, she's a babyface, and she's crazy over. Why? Because (1) she's had great heel talent to work with in Sasha Banks, Charlotte, and Becky Lynch, and (2) her babyface push felt very natural. People tend to like characters that evolve naturally and logically, be they face or heel.

Lots of wrestlers, past and present, have said how much they like working as a heel rather than a babyface, because there is often more wiggle room to build a character. Good guys have to play by rules. Bad guys don't. Thus, character growth can happen for a heel very quickly, whereas a babyface doesn't always have noticeable week-to-week progression. Also, while storylines are often crafted around a babyface (for example, chasing or defending a title), the heel's role can be varied greatly from storyline to storyline in his or her efforts to antagonize the babyface.

So, yeah, making a heel is one solid way to build a character that can eventually become a popular babyface. But, I'd argue that a popular character is a popular character, face or heel. Once they've made it, they've made it. Granted, there are plenty of exceptions all over the place, but sometimes, that's creative failing to take the ball and run with it.