The good, The bad, The Heart Break Kid! aka Milk's review on Shawn Micheals

[HBK-aholic]

I fail to see how that Undertaker/HBK match is one of the all-time greats besides on name alone.

Way to ignore everything else I said. Anyway, I don't believe I said the match was one of the best ever, but it was certainly the best of the night. By far.

All I saw was Sweet Chin Music, kick out, Tombstone, kick out, Sweet Chin Music, kick out. I agree with Jake that Undertaker carried most of that match because IMO Undertaker had more offense and picked up the slack for Michael's lack of offense.

And you say you don't hate Shawn. It's unbelievably obvious. First his great feud with Jericho was all Jericho, now his great match with The Undertaker was down to The Undertaker. You're saying "I don't hate him, I respect him" but showing absolutely none of that in your posts.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Sure, if you think WWE wanted that to be the biggest draw. I mean, I'm pretty sure the two title matches were supposed to take that crown.

Since when were title matches supposed to be the biggest draws at WrestleMania?

Again, very worrying when people would rather watch Shawn/Taker when both are close to retirement.

It depends how successful the show is. Maybe, just maybe, people weren't as sold on HBK vs. Undertaker as you think.

LOL, Shawn put a lot into those matches. It's not his fault JBL is a horrible worker. The matches weren't bad, but weren't great.

I think we'll both agree that HBK is a superior worker to Cena & Batista. Shame that Shawn Michaels couldn't match either of them when it comes to matches against John Layfield.

I'm sure he would. However then you'd get the "Shawn is holding people down he shouldn't be champion" types who like bitching about everything.

Dpends, he's hardly feuding with any younger wrestlers. Maybe feuds against The Miz & John Morrison aren't presented to him, maybe he turns them down flat, or maybe WWE just know not to bother asking the temprimental Heartbreak Kid.

Not really. For a great feud, both have to be into it.

I never said the HBK/Jericho feud was great. I've always despribed it as good. You can have good feuds with only one wrestler.

Limited? Seriously? So his promos against Jericho are the same as his promos in Montreal, which was the same as his promo against The Undertaker, which is the same as his promos in DX? If you think they're the same you're blind.

If he's not limited then why did he do the exact same act from one feud straight into the next?

And how is he not more limited now that he found God?

I'm honoured.

You're easy.

And he does that VERY well . There's nothing wrong with his gimmick, if it draws females there's nothing wrong with that, he's just expanding the audience of WWE.

For every female it draws, it turns off several males.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Since when were title matches supposed to be the biggest draws at WrestleMania?

Since they usually include the biggest stars?

It depends how successful the show is. Maybe, just maybe, people weren't as sold on HBK vs. Undertaker as you think.

More people were sold on HBK/Undertaker than any of the other matches, which was my point.

I think we'll both agree that HBK is a superior worker to Cena & Batista.

Ahuh.

Shame that Shawn Michaels couldn't match either of them when it comes to matches against John Layfield.

Meh, matter of opinion. The only great match Batista's ever had in my opinion was against Cena. Even his Stretcher match with Shawn wasn't great.

Dpends, he's hardly feuding with any younger wrestlers. Maybe feuds against The Miz & John Morrison aren't presented to him, maybe he turns them down flat, or maybe WWE just know not to bother asking the temprimental Heartbreak Kid.

I don't think he'd have any problem feuding with the 2 of them.

I never said the HBK/Jericho feud was great. I've always despribed it as good. You can have good feuds with only one wrestler.

Arguable, but still, that feud's success was down to both of them.

If he's not limited then why did he do the exact same act from one feud straight into the next?

You mean apart from WWE booking him as a broken man?

And how is he not more limited now that he found God?

Eugh.

You're easy.

For every female it draws, it turns off several males.

I very much doubt that many people would stop watching the WWE because they disliked one wrestler.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Since they usually include the biggest stars?

Nope. I'll give you a couple of examples. Not for your benefit, but because I'm bored.

WrestleMania 23: Big Show vs. Floyd Mayweather
WrestleMania 22: Battle Of The Billionaires
WrestleMania 19: Hogan vs. Vince
WrestleMania 8: Hogan vs. Sid
WrestleMania 1: Roddy Piper & Paul Orndorff vs. Hulk Hogan & Mr. T (Non-Title)

There are more.

Meh, matter of opinion. The only great match Batista's ever had in my opinion was against Cena.

It's not even Batista's best SummerSlam match. That'll go to the hugely underrated match he had in 2005 against...wait for it....John ''Bradshaw'' Layfield.

I don't think he'd have any problem feuding with the 2 of them.

You don't?

I added the third option for a reason. Maybe he'd happily have a feud with a younger wrestler. But it's likely WWE don't bother to ask him because they don't want the possibility of the old HBK showing up again.

That finding God stuff is rubbish. With his stature in the company WWE management will know what they can and can't ask of him. He might have mellowed, but he'd still be easy to piss off.

Arguable, but still, that feud's success was down to both of them.

Not really. You could have replaced HBK with anybody.

You mean apart from WWE booking him as a broken man?

Broken in a different way. Several months before he was nearly forced to retire. He should have been happy/-er that JBL was willing to give him the money that he needed. He also let him out of a legally binding contract. That Bradshaw is a lot nicer than people give him credit for. I for one will never forget how the APA used to let Spike Dudley drink with them, sometimes. Or how JBL gave the rub to that black guy who he had as his man servant. The one who was fired for having a relationship with a teenage boy. I forget his name.

I very much doubt that many people would stop watching the WWE because they disliked one wrestler.

They did, in 1996.

 

[supersayian]

Milkway needs to be banned please. this kid is a real smart ass if you ask me. i think he is trying to just get attention. He keeps going back and forth on hating Shawn and Respecting him. now how does that make any sense what so ever? it does not thats why. you keep saying how all these guys are better then him. well where are they now. lets take a look shall we. Hogan in a divorce and i think the sick perve thinks his daughter is a peice of meat. Rock in Hollywood making movies some okay others bad beyond belief. Foley oh yeah he is in TNA where he is holding there tittle what a joke or was anyway. i like foley and don'tt get me wrong he is great but not on the level of HBK at all my friend. lay off the Roids.

Foley had a really good promo with Edge right before Hell IN A Cell with taker last year. best in a while.

HBK had 4 weeks of great promos outsmarting Taker and getting in his head like no one has ever before. i see a rematch on the horizon there.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Meh, matter of opinion. The only great match Batista's ever had in my opinion was against Cena. Even his Stretcher match with Shawn wasn't great.

His match against Undertaker was one of if not the best match out of Wrestlemania 23. It was a better all-around match than HBK vs. Cena maybe except for the ending.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Milkway needs to be banned please. this kid is a real smart ass if you ask me. i think he is trying to just get attention. He keeps going back and forth on hating Shawn and Respecting him. now how does that make any sense what so ever? it does not thats why. you keep saying how all these guys are better then him. well where are they now. lets take a look shall we. Hogan in a divorce and i think the sick perve thinks his daughter is a peice of meat. Rock in Hollywood making movies some okay others bad beyond belief. Foley oh yeah he is in TNA where he is holding there tittle what a joke or was anyway. i like foley and don'tt get me wrong he is great but not on the level of HBK at all my friend. lay off the Roids.

Foley had a really good promo with Edge right before Hell IN A Cell with taker last year. best in a while.

HBK had 4 weeks of great promos outsmarting Taker and getting in his head like no one has ever before. i see a rematch on the horizon there.

There's no reason in taking outside factors concerning Rock, Hogan, and Foley to praise Shawn Michaels. We are talking in-ring accomplishments here and not outside influence. I guess you are another of those who think the Rock sold out because he left to make movies. He did all that he can do in the WWE and left to pursue another career so are we supposed to hate him for that?

It doesn't matter where they are at now. When they were in the ring wrestling, I consider them better than Shawn Michaels.

 

[Milkyway!]

You could say that about anyone. As much as certain fans like to say "___ is carrying the business", it's usually bullshit. No one person has ever carried a company single handedly.

Actually. Stone Cold did a very very good job at carrying the business single handidly for quite sometime. If you remember one of the bigger parts of the Austin/Mcmahon fued, and the first time Austin got fired, there was an Undertaker vs Kane match. Now usually that would sell very high, seeing as how those three (Austin, Taker, Kane) were legitimately that top three main events. Now who in the world do you know, actually paid and bought that, because of Kane vs Austin? Simple. I know no one. Everyone wanted to know if Austin was going to get fired, simple as that.

Hulk Hogan carried the business on his back for quite sometime. THe first 6 wrestlemanias would have flopped, had Hogan not been there. WWE would have NEVER and would NEVER be able to go national. Without Hulk Hogan. Hulk carried the business on his back, and his accomplishments are still being shown today. People all over the world get WWE now. Without Hulk Hogan, I'm willing to say that would have never been done.

John Cena, is single handidly carrying the show. You remember last year when Punk held the title, and Cena was off it. Ratings droped to an all time low during the decade, to a 2.7. It hadn't been done since Shawn Michaels held the title in '96. When John came back, ratings shot back up to a steady 3.3-3.5. People still watch wrestling today, mostly, to see John Cena come over the odds. Johns amazing on the microphone. Hes a decent-good inring competitor. He draws like nobody's business. John Cena is currently carrying the show, alone. Guys like Randy, Jericho, dare I say Edge, Big Show, etc. Aren't drawing a lick. John Cena is carrying the show ALONE.

Now lets take Shawn Michaels. In '96 the company was entrusted upon his back. Instead of doing anything note worthy with one of the best ever (Bret Hart) he was pretty stingy with the belt. He didn't draw, yet refused to give it up, or only wanted it more. Shawn, when the business was down, hurt the business.

Honestly, Shawn has the abilities to go as far as you say he can go Becca, anyone thats ever seen Shawn Michaels about two week before Wrestlemania, and during Wrestlemania knows that. But, he doesn't put everything out on the line, each and everytime he steps in the ring. Thats why hes just a simple, Upper midcard wrestler to me.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Actually. Stone Cold did a very very good job at carrying the business single handidly for quite sometime. If you remember one of the bigger parts of the Austin/Mcmahon fued, and the first time Austin got fired, there was an Undertaker vs Kane match. Now usually that would sell very high, seeing as how those three (Austin, Taker, Kane) were legitimately that top three main events. Now who in the world do you know, actually paid and bought that, because of Kane vs Austin? Simple. I know no one. Everyone wanted to know if Austin was going to get fired, simple as that.

Hulk Hogan carried the business on his back for quite sometime. THe first 6 wrestlemanias would have flopped, had Hogan not been there. WWE would have NEVER and would NEVER be able to go national. Without Hulk Hogan. Hulk carried the business on his back, and his accomplishments are still being shown today. People all over the world get WWE now. Without Hulk Hogan, I'm willing to say that would have never been done.

John Cena, is single handidly carrying the show. You remember last year when Punk held the title, and Cena was off it. Ratings droped to an all time low during the decade, to a 2.7. It hadn't been done since Shawn Michaels held the title in '96. When John came back, ratings shot back up to a steady 3.3-3.5. People still watch wrestling today, mostly, to see John Cena come over the odds. Johns amazing on the microphone. Hes a decent-good inring competitor. He draws like nobody's business. John Cena is currently carrying the show, alone. Guys like Randy, Jericho, dare I say Edge, Big Show, etc. Aren't drawing a lick. John Cena is carrying the show ALONE.

Everything you've just said is utter bullshit. For a person to draw, they need to be cutting good promos against people, and having good matches. What do you need for that to happen? Other wrestlers. Your statement at the end their is completely ignorant. If people were only watching for Cena, no one would watch when Cena wasn't there. Instead, while ratings are less, they're still higher than they have been, and much higher than TNA is putting out. No one carries a company single handedly, because you need other talent to have a good company.

Now lets take Shawn Michaels. In '96 the company was entrusted upon his back. Instead of doing anything note worthy with one of the best ever (Bret Hart) he was pretty stingy with the belt. He didn't draw, yet refused to give it up, or only wanted it more. Shawn, when the business was down, hurt the business.

Refused to give it up? For a start, that's stupid because if he refused to give it up he'd still be champion. And secondly, if McMahon didn't want Shawn to be champion, Shawn would know about it. Look what happened to Hart when he refused to drop the belt.

 

[Big Sexy]

I'm not going to go back an quote everybody's posts because that would take way too much time, but I will respond to the main criticisms of Shawn Michaels in this thread. I am by no means going to say that Shawn is the greatest wrestler ever and everyone should praise him because he is far from that, but to say that he was nothing more then a glorified mid carder is ridiculous.

One of the things I've read in this thread is that HBK was bad on the mic. To be perfectly honest I really haven't heard too many people say that before so I'm just going to come to the conclusion that it is just the opinion of a select few. I personally find his promos to be very entertaining. There's only a few other guys that I would rather hear on the mic over Shawn Michaels.

The second thing I've heard a lot of is HBK's inability to draw. There are two reasons for this. One is that WCW just had an all around better product at this time. It didn't matter who the champion was, no one was going to draw well at that time. Actually during his title reign in DX he didn't draw that badly at all because he had better talent to work with. Which brings me to my second reason his first reign didn't draw that well. The talent just wasn't there. With the exception of Bret Hart and the Undertaker there weren't any established guys for him to work with. Bret Hart was taking time off during most of Michaels reign and the Undertaker was in a feud with Mankind, so HBK had no one to work with. When you're putting HBK into feuds with the likes of Sid, Vader, and British Bulldog he never had a chance to draw. Considering everything that was going on at this time HBK did the best he could with what he was given.

The third thing that I've heard a lot about was the fact that HBK wouldn't put anyone over. However, I have yet to see a good example of guys he refused to put over. To my knowledge the only person he ever refused to lose to was Bret Hart and it's not like Hart needed a good rub from HBK to be over.

HBK is a great wrestler and a legit main event talent. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a huge Bret Hart fan or they have their head up their ass

 

[tehblogger]

Yeah. Um, people, it's SHAWN MICHAELS. Yes, the man is quite clearly a massive prick, and I'm not sure that's really changed, but he is One Of The Best Workers Of All Time. I can think of a few people who are slightly better workers, but it's a pretty short list. He cuts excellent promos and plays his character well.

The only real overrating that goes on is with certain people on this forum who think he's The Best Worker Ever (patently untrue), and The Best Promo Cutter ever (also patently untrue). True to form, Michaels' fans also refuse to accept that he's ageing and that Jericho carried that entire brilliant feud last year: Michaels' in-ring work is not as good as it consistently was and while he tried with the "broken man" character, you could tell from his promos his heart wasn't really in it and he was longing to get back to being The Showstopper. He also was involved in the two worst matches of 2008 - vs Flair at Mania and vs Batista in that horrible stinkfest of a stretcher match at One Night Stand - although, in all fairness, those were/are the two worst workers around.

But with all that said, for all that's he slightly overstayed his welcome and could probably put a few more young guns over - he's still SHAWN MICHAELS.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Michaels' fans also refuse to accept that he's ageing

Um, no they don't. In fact we use it to just further show how what he's doing is great.

and that Jericho carried that entire brilliant feud last year:

Because it's an absolutely bullshit statement. The feud would NOT have been 'brilliant' if Shawn was being carried throughout it, and to argue otherwise is silly. You can't have a brilliant feud if both aren't active participants.

Michaels' in-ring work is not as good as it consistently was and while he tried with the "broken man" character, you could tell from his promos his heart wasn't really in it

Excuse me?? All I saw from Shawn was his heart being into it..when Jericho punched his wife..when he felt a failure because he couldn't provide for his family. The pain in his eyes was obvious. He played the character brilliantly.

He also was involved in the two worst matches of 2008 - vs Flair at Mania

That match was absolutely brilliant. It wasn't technically sound, but since when is that the most important thing? That match was all abotu the emotion, all about Flair's career, and his apology to Flair at the end was great. Not a technically sound match, but no one else could have given him such a great last match and I'm sure he agrees.

and vs Batista in that horrible stinkfest of a stretcher match at One Night Stand - although, in all fairness, those were/are the two worst workers around.

I'm just glad Shawn got through that match safely. Batista and stretcher match do not go, I was on the edge of my seat scared he'd kill Shawn at any moment.

 

[tehblogger]

Because it's an absolutely bullshit statement. The feud would NOT have been 'brilliant' if Shawn was being carried throughout it, and to argue otherwise is silly. You can't have a brilliant feud if both aren't active participants.

No, Jericho was just beyond brilliant. He was superlative. Michaels was Ok, nothing more. Jericho put his heart and soul into those promos and made people buy it. Michaels - well, he was trying hard, but you could tell he didn't really want to. Much more fun being the Showstopper.

Excuse me?? All I saw from Shawn was his heart being into it..when Jericho punched his wife..when he felt a failure because he couldn't provide for his family. The pain in his eyes was obvious. He played the character brilliantly.

I'm used to operatic level melodrama. It wasn't done all that badly, it just could have been done better. He never really had that defining cathartic moment when he realises Jericho's ripped him apart and that he has nothing left: the moment that would have made the feud legendary. The progression of character was not clearly delineated.

That match was absolutely brilliant. It wasn't technically sound, but since when is that the most important thing? That match was all abotu the emotion, all about Flair's career, and his apology to Flair at the end was great. Not a technically sound match, but no one else could have given him such a great last match and I'm sure he agrees.

Such an emotional match that nobody cared when he lost. Go back to the video when Michaels gets the pin and listen to the pop. Then listen to the pop when Matt Hardy showed up in the MITB match of that year to further his feud with MVP. Compare and contrast. The spectacle of Michaels trying his heart out, but clearly trying far too hard, was painful.

Um, and yeah. Jericho showed that he is far better at working with Old People at Mania 25.

I'm just glad Shawn got through that match safely. Batista and stretcher match do not go, I was on the edge of my seat scared he'd kill Shawn at any moment.

Fair point. You weren't the only one. It was still a horrible match, though.

 

[tehblogger]

Lol, now I'm going to argue with myself.

No, Jericho was just beyond brilliant. He was superlative. Michaels was Ok, nothing more. Jericho put his heart and soul into those promos and made people buy it. Michaels - well, he was trying hard, but you could tell he didn't really want to. Much more fun being the Showstopper.

Though possibly there's no one on the roster who's a good enough actor to have done any better, apart from Jericho himself - and probably Edge.

I'm used to operatic level melodrama. It wasn't done all that badly, it just could have been done better. He never really had that defining cathartic moment when he realises Jericho's ripped him apart and that he has nothing left: the moment that would have made the feud legendary. The progression of character was not clearly delineated.

Ever seen Die Walkure? There's this wonderful moment when Siegmund realises he's for it, says "fuck it" (in Wagnerian German) and decides to fight anyway. Because that's what a hero does, even at their lowest point. That feud could have been so much better if Michaels' character had really been pushed to plumb the depths.

Such an emotional match that nobody cared when he lost. Go back to the video when Michaels gets the pin and listen to the pop. Then listen to the pop when Matt Hardy showed up in the MITB match of that year to further his feud with MVP. Compare and contrast. The spectacle of Michaels trying his heart out, but clearly trying far too hard, was painful

.

Yeah, he really shouldn't have done that moonsault onto the announce table. Not only did it totally fuck up an already shitty match, but it really made you think "Damn, Michaels wants Flair gone THAT badly?!?"

Um, and yeah. Jericho showed that he is far better at working with Old People at Mania 25.

Though in fairness to Michaels, Steamboat > Flair, who sucked horribly for maybe half his career, and wasn't as good as people think for the other half. Though maybe people are now starting to realise this. After all, Steamboat got a hell of a long way in our little tournament, and is only losing now to a gimmick that absolutely favours his opponent, Edge, in every way.

 

[Miko]

Yeah I think HBK's overrated, I think most of his classic's arent anywhere near as good as people make them out to be. HBK gets the benefit of Bret Harts incredibly biased idea of who is a great wrestler, that is, anyone with a technical game is automatically better than all others.

Anyway, as a ring performer HBK was good, before his back injury and for a while after he returned, I still think alot of his classics arent as good as the hype they recieve though, Mindgames with Mankind for instance, good match, seen plenty better. His match with Undertaker at WrestleMania, good match, Taker vs Batista was better.

The drawing power = great wrestler argument, while I dont use it so much is a sound argument, after all, what better way to determine who is the greatest performer of all time than to check who the majority of people pay to see, after all, the collective opinions of millions of fans are far better than that Dave Meltzer bloke I've been hearing so much about.

Anyway, lost track of where I am, oh yeah, Shawn Michaels wouldnt make my list of top 10 wrestlers, that being said, neither would Kurt Angle, so my opinion isnt internet friendly.

 

[CoreyGrandy]

The problem with this thread, Milky, is that you never explicitly state how it is you determine that Shawn Michaels is such a terrible wrestler other than saying "Well I lurve Brat Hurt and he's be ma hurro, so I guss eyez gots ta ha3t sean mikaels zomg". I am a Canadian, I saw the Screwjob, I didn't like it, I moved on. There are so many sides to argue for and I have my own personal opinions, and you have yours, that is fine.

I however, don't call Bret Hart a bad wrestler because I personally believe he spent nearly a decade whining over something that he had his own part in causing. I think it took him, and the rest of my country too long to get over the incident and it's people who can't get past something that has a legitimate reason for happening (though I will admit, it was carried out in a way that was not as beneficial to all parties as it could have been).

You base your dislike for Shawn Michaels on something he helped concoct personally, behind the scenes. What you fail to realize is, that to anybody who writes without bias, you look like a whiny toddler. When you can prove to me that Shawn Michaels is not as technically sound, fascinating, awe-inspiring or important as Hulk Hogan (based on on what they exhibit in the ring, not their personal lives, backstage antics or money drawn), I might see you as a worthwhile human, until then you're wasting my time.

 

[BooCocky]

First off, Shawn Michaels could have a good match with anyone.

He's had a lot of lackluster matches. His matches with JBL sucked, the majority of his matches with Jericho in 08 sucked. His match with Ric Flair sucked.

He's not overrated.

On the internet he is.

He was the top guy when the WWF product was stale

Exactly, and they were drawing like 2.0's. Which proves he isn't a drawing wrestler.

If he was drawing, he wouldn't have main-evented so many PPV's both with and without the title ( HIAC 1997).

Matches like HIAC usually sell themselves.

He was more versatile in the ring. He is the one of the few good workers left, and is still entertaining. He also pioneered "attitude".

I strongly disagreed with everything you said. Most Michaels matches are the same. He's hardly entertaining anymore, because he doesnt give a fuck. Also, I strongly believe Austin started the Attitude era and HBK was practically injured throughout it.

Am I the only one who thought his Jericho feud was a complete bore? Jericho came out, he cut the same promo week after week in some stupid ass fucking voice. The matches were sub par at best, and the whole entire feud dragged way too long.

HBK is a great wrestler and a legit main event talent. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a huge Bret Hart fan or they have their head up their ass

Shawn is a very good wrestler, most of his matches are watchable, but the one thing is, you could never build a wrestling program around him. When wrestling became big, HBK was hardly main eventing any PPV worthwhile. I will give you this though, he did lose to Cena at WM and cleanly lost a rising Jeff Hardy. But I really wouldnt call him a legit main eventer. He is an upper mid card filler and is used when the champ has nothing left...

 

[Milkyway!]

So the 2nd quote above is NOT you?

I wasn't meaning that in terms of, hes a better wrestler. While Hulk Hogan did have very good wrestling skills, Hulk did more for the business than any one man's ever done. You can not deny the fact that Hulk is undouptedly one of the greatest superstars to have ever lived. His drawing powers, is enough to make him a legend. His wrestling/promo cutting abilities, are enough to make him immortal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rey_Misterio,_Sr.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rey_Mysterio,_Jr.

Thought I'd quote your bible. Misterio Sr. has never been "Rey Mysterio". And Rey Jr., if you check out his history was know as Rey Misterio Jr. before coming to America. Facts juniour, check 'em.

Yes, but in America hes known as Rey Mysteryo Jr. I don't study mexican wrestling, I could actually give a crap about it. I only take what I'm given here in America. And in America, if you haven't noticed, its Mysteryo.

And yet, to you, he's "that Liger guy". You certainly are a genius smark.

^_^ Thats because I know so little about Liger. I'm researching and watching his matches, as we speak though. During at which time I said "That Liger guy" is simply because I had never heard his name outside of Wrestlezone.

What is with you? You get called out on stuff and just decide to change your story. Fight for your opinion son, christ.

Notice the word hayday. I'd hardly call what he was doing in The Rockers his hayday. During the Rockers he wrestled a more cruiserweight style. During his hayday, or a word we use down here, for prime. He was what I explained him as being. And, thats not my opinion, its just facts.

1) Why does it need to be according to Triple H? It's common knowledge my friend. 2) Then call her a valet, a female manger, whatever. "Valett type thing" Makes you sound 6.

Because she wasn't necassarily billed as his Valet. I was simply making the comparison, between HHH and Shawn's useage of female wrestlers. Because, I had been watching and reading a lot of HHH's work, during the time when I was writing that.

Then talk about what you know instead of begging others for help.

Never once did I beg for help. I simply said "I am having trouble finding any information on Shawn outside of Wikipedia, any help would be much obliged" I'm pretty sure if I were begging I'd put "I need help for christs sake please someone, anyone, I'll even take blade for christs sake just help" Theres a much bigger diffrence in asking someone for some sites on where to find the best Shawn Michaels information, than there is in begging someone to help.

Then you're biased, get out.

Actually I'm not biased, simply stating the fact I think Shawn Michaels isn't as good as everyone makes him out to be through the process of freedom of speech, on a forum, at which I have every right to be posting on. I think I'll stay in.

You made a bad review, and contradicted yourself bunches of times. Then you outright lied. Why should I even begin to take this seriously?

Indeed, I made a bad review. Thats why its got 7 1/2 pages, and its hardly been out for 27 hours now.

None of which you bothered to cover.

If you had been here, or had gone back and read the other thread, then you would know that I'm doing this in parts, in hopes to keep quality in the posts. I don't want to slop it together out of boredom. The parts of the past 7 1/2 years. Is coming.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Shawn Micheals is overrated to hell and back. Hes good, but not that great. His time in the WWE has been nothing of anything great. His ability to draw sucks balls. His wrestling abilities are average compared to that of Bret Hart's, Ricky Steamboats, an 80's Ric Flair, Harley Race, Hulk Hogan. Hes not that entertaining either, the only thing Shawn Micheals has going for him at the moment, is he can wrestle, and he can wrestle good. Now if you're Harthan, that makes him the best in the world right now. But if you're Milk, that doesn't mean much. What's he doing for the company? Whats he doing for the fans? I mean if I want to watch a fun match, I'll turn on some indy's and watch some flippy things. Shawn Micheals is a poor entertainer, and this is a form of entertainment, not so much is it about wrestling ability these days. So Shawn Micheals, hang up the boots. You've still got some of the wrestling, but you've never been entertaining, back in the 90's that was okay, it wasn't so much about entertainment back then, today in 2009, thats not okay, its a purely entertainment sport. In the end, its still the same, overlyhyped, overrated, Shawn Micheals, and you just downright need to retire. Before you hurt yourself. Again.

I've bolded the only true thing in this whole paragraph. Yes, Shawn Michaels was not a good draw during his time on top of the company. But, there are so many other factors to account for during this time (from about mid-1995 to early 1998) that, personally, I think it's safe to say that no one could have been a draw during Michaels' time on top. However, this still doesn't take away from the fact that I think he is best at being someone who splits his time between the upper mid-card and main event, just like such guys as The Undertaker, Chris Jericho, and Kurt Angle.

However, how I feel about where Michaels should be on the card says nothing about how I feel about his abilities to wrestle and entertain. Michaels is easily one of the greatest 25 wrestlers of all time, there's no doubt in my mind about that. His matches speak for themselves. In fact, I can't think of anyone currently in WWE that can consistently put on well-paced and suspenseful matches. Hell, he wasn't even in a match in this year's Royal Rumble, yet he still managed to change the snoozefest that was Cena/JBL 325 into something that at least partly justified the cost of my purchasing the event.

While Michaels may not be the best wrestler to head a company that is in dire need of new fans, he sure as hell is a wrestler you'd want to have if you needed to retain them. This, I believe, is the number one reason people sing HBK's virtues so much, and also why he hasn't retired. When worse comes to worst, both McMahon and the fans say, "Well, at least Michaels will be wrestling tonight."

Honestly, bro, no offense, but I find it a little hypocritical that you simultaneously think that Michaels is overrated and HHH is so great. HHH's drawing abilities are no better than Michaels', and he'll never be as good of a wrestler as Shawn Michaels.

 

[Milkyway!]

Honestly, bro, no offense, but I find it a little hypocritical that you simultaneously think that Michaels is overrated and HHH is so great. HHH's drawing abilities are no better than Michaels', and he'll never be as good of a wrestler as Shawn Michaels.

Watch anything from 2002, when HHH made his return. The crouds were so loudly popping for him, that I almost went deaf, and my volume was only on half. Come on now, these days, HHH is just as bad as Shawn when it comes to feeding his ego. But, at one point in time, HHH was as good as I think he is. By all means, I said in that thread a 100 times, HHH is not a very good WRESTLER, but he is one hell of an entertainer. His drawing abilities, were very good during his prime, now though, hes just been over exposed, and shoved down our throats a bit too much. For anyones liking.

I've bolded the only true thing in this whole paragraph. Yes, Shawn Michaels was not a good draw during his time on top of the company. But, there are so many other factors to account for during this time (from about mid-1995 to early 1998) that, personally, I think it's safe to say that no one could have been a draw during Michaels' time on top. However, this still doesn't take away from the fact that I think he is best at being someone who splits his time between the upper mid-card and main event, just like such guys as The Undertaker, Chris Jericho, and Kurt Angle.

I'm willing to put my life on the line, to say Stone Cold could draw agaisnt WcW. I could be wrong, but, with the ratings that guy pulled single handidly is enough to do me in. Now, to judge everyone agaisnt the best player of the business, ever, would be unfair, and unjust. But I believe you look at someone like John Cena, without him, the show failed to hell, and I believe had he not made his return the following week, we would see the same 2.7 result, if not lower. John Cena is the only draw on Raw right now. How is it fair to put someone like John Cena, and Shawn Michaels in the same catagory as a Main Eventor, when Shawn, couldn't even draw flies. Simple, its not. Thats the ONLY reason I'm not willing to put Shawn in the Main Event tier of wrestlings finest.

 

[Big Sexy]

Watch anything from 2002, when HHH made his return. The crouds were so loudly popping for him, that I almost went deaf, and my volume was only on half.

Any time a major superstar returns after being gone almost a year he's obviously going to get a large pop for the first few weeks he's back.

I'm willing to put my life on the line, to say Stone Cold could draw agaisnt WcW

If Steve Austin had the title during the time period that HBK had his first reign, I can almost guarantee he would not have drawn that much better.

I could be wrong, but, with the ratings that guy pulled single handidly is enough to do me in.

Single-handedly? Really? Did you forget about the Rock, the Mr McMahon character, an improved Undertaker, an improved Triple H, Mick Foley. Austin drew very good ratings but he had a lot of help.

How is it fair to put someone like John Cena, and Shawn Michaels in the same catagory as a Main Eventor, when Shawn, couldn't even draw flies. Simple, its not. Thats the ONLY reason I'm not willing to put Shawn in the Main Event tier of wrestlings finest.

What exactly is your main event tier? Because the way you're talking the only people it includes are Hogan, Austin, and Cena.

 

[Spunky]

The only real overrating that goes on is with certain people on this forum who think he's The Best Worker Ever (patently untrue), and The Best Promo Cutter ever (also patently untrue).

Shawn Michaels isnt in my top 5 wrestlers, So im being completely biased. Fact is he really is one of the best of our time, Wether people want to admit it or not.

True to form, Michaels' fans also refuse to accept that he's ageing and that Jericho carried that entire brilliant feud last year.

Well Shawn Michaels vs Chris Jericho was ALOT better than the Jericho vs The Legends, And Jericho hasn't had a decent feud since, He had a load of good matches, But nothing that stands out.

Michaels' in-ring work is not as good as it consistently was.

Yet he is still one of the best on the roster.

and while he tried with the "broken man" character, you could tell from his promos his heart wasn't really in it and he was longing to get back to being The Showstopper.

Well duhhhh, He explained all that during the fued. He couldn't be the Showstophaaaaa because JBL kept screwing, And using him.

He also was involved in the two worst matches of 2008 - vs Flair at Mania
and vs Batista in that horrible stinkfest of a stretcher match at One Night Stand - although, in all fairness, those were/are the two worst workers around.

Yet HBK vs Naitch was voted match of the year by alot people, It actually reignited my passion for wrestling. Not going to argue with you about Batista, But without that match, HBK vs Y2J wouldn't have gone down.

But with all that said, for all that's he slightly overstayed his welcome and could probably put a few more young guns over - he's still SHAWN MICHAELS.

He hasn't over stayed his welcome, If it wasn't for him giving everything he had for us his body would be in better shape, And wrestler to how you described.

 

[Harthan]

^_^ I love all the shots being thrown at me, just because I'm a diehard Bret Hart fan, and lothe Shawn Micheals for what hes done.

Boo hoo, Shawn was an asshole. So he told Bret to fuck off. So he screwed him out of his title. Let's all blindly heap love on Bret Hart, because he was TOTALLY without guilt, or anything. It's not like he was about to screw Vince over by leaving his company, not to mention as world champion. Yeah, Shawn as a dick in those days, but Bret was going to do something just as bad to Vince, and Vince (and Shawn) protected the WWF's interests. There's something he's done for the WWF, since you're looking for them.

With all blind hate set aside. Shawn Micheals has had a good career folks.

Fantastic career is a better term, but sure.

While, I don't like much what he does with putting people over, because the people he puts over don't really need it.

Since when does putting people over make you a good wrestler? It makes you a good person, sure, but fuck that. Besides, off the top of my head, I could tell you that Shawn helped to make Edge, Chris Benoit, Shelton Benjamin's singles career, and he made Cena look a hell of a lot better than he ever did before in any of their matches. If I dug around for a while I could probably double that list. There's four people, three of whom are former world champions, and one of whom may yet become one, who have benefited a great deal from Shawn Michaels help.

His wrestling, isn't doing much for the company either.

Let me break this down for you...Shawn has great build up, with the promise of a great PPV match...which leads people to buy PPVs. Get this - people buying PPVs? That's pretty damn good for the company.

Sorry Harthan

Oh, it's quite alright.

, but no matter how much you deny this, at the end of the day. People are NOT watching the Pay per views, because they are looking forward to Shawns matches.

Really? Oh, let's see. I'd say he had the most anticipated match at WrestleMania 25, No Mercy 2008, Unforgiven 2008, the Great American Bash 2008, probably tied at Mania 24, he helped make the 2008 Royal Rumble one of the best ever...and that's in a time span where he's been working a light schedule. I'd go on, but I've made my point - Shawn consistently has an anticipated, great match on PPV, and people buy them in whole or in part for him.

Hands down. Sure hes a good show, during the show, but people really only look forward to a good show.

What now? I don't know what this says, exactly. Try English I, it's great. I think you're saying he has a good match, but not a good buildup? Well, that's flat out wrong. Watch any PPV buildup of his - he comes out with intense, heartfelt promos that make you want to see him kick some ass.

Then again, you did say Steamboat vs Jericho at Backlash was a bad match too. >.>

What now? That was a great match, and I never claimed otherwise.

I don't like Shawn Michaels promo cutting skills.

That's really your problem, because the vast majority of people...do.

Simply because he says hes the best, when theres people MILES ahead of him when it comes to terms of sucess, and entertainment. Yes, Harthan, Wrestling = entertainment. Professional wrestling doesn't = wrestling anymore.

Uhh, yeah. No one watches wrestling for wrestling matches...Milk, face the fact you're in the huge minority here, and that your opinion is not entirely valid as an impartial judgment of Shawn Michael's career.

It's a purely entertainment aspect, and you know it.

Err, no. Not really, at all. I said before - if you want pure entertainment, I direct you to this year's crap being handed out by the networks. If you want sports entertainment, which is what wrestling is...then watch wrestling. The entertainment is half of it, and the wrestling is half of it...and it's been this way for a long long time.

Men like Bruno Samartino, Ricky Steamboat, Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Mick Foley are all better than Shawn Micheals will ever be.

They're about on the same level, excepting Hogan, Steamboat, and maybe Sammartino.

I just find it atrocious that anyone can put Shawn Micheals in the same catagory as these men.

I find it atrocious that you make such laughable arguments about Michaels, and continue to misspell his name.

Mick Foley has done more for superstars, in terms of making Stars into superstars, than Shawns ever even thought about.

I agree. But, really, who gives a shit?

Steamboat was a better wrestler from day one. Putting on clinics with the likes of Flair, making Stone Cold the wrestler he was, and really created the style Shawn Micheals uses today.

Steamboat's a wrestling god, and I won't deny this. I think it's funny, though, that you're lauding his matches, with Flair, Stone Cold, and his style in general, as making him great...and yet, you claim Shawn might be a great wrestler, but his lack of charisma (in your horribly misguided eyes), somehow makes him inferior. So Steamboat's a great wrestler because he can wrestler, but Shawn isn't? Remind me of your logic train?

Steve Austin is easily the best superstar on the face of this planet. Ever.

Well, sure. But not really. Hogan is bounds ahead of Austin.

Revolutionizing the business still today with his styles.

Some would argue he ruined wrestling. Not me, really, but some.

Hulk Hogan did more for the WWE than anyone, ever. Making the WWE go national, cutting out territories, and having the 2nd longest WWE champion reign, ever.

Sure, he's great. I'd freely admit he's a better all around wrestler than Shawn. All I would claim is that Shawn is the best wrestler from 2002 and beyond, into the modern day.

Bruno Samartino held the title longer than anyone ever, and was the biggest draw for the WWE, which layed a foundation for Hulk to really pick up and run on.

This is actually rather silly. Sammartino was a technical god, and that's why he's a great. Yet, just like with Steamboat, somehow this makes Sammartino a great wrestler, but Shawn, who also has incredible wrestling skills, doesn't get by on the same token.

Bret Hart was simply a more upgraded, better technical, more entertaining wrestler. That got screwed out of ever going back to the WWE, because of baby back b**** Shawn Michaels.

I made this argument before, but I'll make it again. Bret was going to fuck Vince over, and was basically a petty bitch about things because he refused to go down in Montreal. If he'd manned up and taken a loss, that would have worked. If he'd worked out something with Vince beforehand, that would have worked. Instead, he intended to screw Vince over by going to WCW as WWF champ (regardless of whether he'd relinquish the title or not, because you know WCW would have taken advantage of that as well), and hurting Vince's image and company. Vince protected his image, and it's really irrelevant whether Shawn was involved or not, because he was the best wrestler to drop the title to at the time.

John Cena is revolutionizing the business today. In what a top WWE superstar is like, and setting a role model for everyone to follow. In a time when Wrestling is declining, John is keeping Raw ratings at a steady 3.3 no matter what (yes I know they've been up for the last few months) and I'm willing to say is easily the best superstar of this decade.

Ratings have been slipping quite a bit lately, actually, and Cena is still hanging around on Raw...as the top face, no less. I'm not saying Shawn could necessarily do better (the interest in wrestling in general is waning), but at least he's putting on epic matches.

So honestly, what has Shawn ever done for the business.

Some of the best matches...ever? That's not enough for you?

I put Shawn an upper midcard level, anyday of the week.

Which is silly, because he's clearly a main eventer. You're being rather stupid, actually.

But compared to the main eventors like these. Nuh-uh. No flipping way.

Hogan, Steamboat, Sammartino, sure. The rest? Not so much. Shawn is the best wrestler in the timespan since his return, which is rather indicative of an era of wrestling in general.

Shawn can simply put on a good match.

I'm not quite sure how many times I have to tell you this, but professional wrestling is, by and large, about actual wrestling. Furthermore, by this argument, Steamboat and Sammartino were shit, so you're contradicting yourself.

Indy guys can put on a good match, a better match than Shawn can, next thing you know, they will be the greatest superstars ever. Even though their promos are usually a borefest and their entertainment//charisma are at an all time low.

This is flat out silly. There's great technical wrestlers in the indies, sure, and I love that. Many don't, and that's great for them. Shawn, however, is a better wrestler than anyone in the indies, and he backs it up with mic skills 100 times better than any of theirs. Shawn builds a match, and then delivers 110% of it, and that, at the end of the day, is why Shawn is the best wrestler in the world today.