The FTS vs. X Random Debate Thread

[X]

Because FTS and I are always getting into random debates in the Bar Room, and we frequently find ourselves asking each other "Why are we discussing this in the Bar Room...", well, now we don't have to anymore FTS. That's right, now we can make them real bonafide posts!

FTS and myself were just having a minor debate about the Israel-Palestine conflict, something that's obviously very controversial, and obviously very delicate subject matter, particularly for him. If anyone wants to jump into the discussion, feel free to. THIS INCLUDES YOU RAZOR!

Still waiting for the rampant human rights violations. What I read here is that they detain people that may be firing rockets at them, or they destroy houses where bomb making materials are hidden.

Pillay said rights violations included arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment, extrajudicial execution, forced eviction and home demolition, settlement expansion and related violence and restrictions on freedom of movement and expression.

It's a bit more serious than you make it out to be FTS. If it were American soldiers doing this, it'd be all over the news.

The main point of the "rampant" human rights violations is that people are being detained in the occupied territory. Well, so the fuck what. Stop walking into pizza parlors with bombs strapped to your chest. It's not like in America where it happens once. It is a pattern of terrorism. The people being detained can blame their leaders. Like I said, at some point, you need to fight dirty. Furthermore, Israel just gave the Suez back to Egypt once Egypt stopped attacking Israel. If the Palestinians want their land back, they should fucking stop attacking Israelis.

I agree with you that violence isn't the answer FTS. You know me man, I'm a damn tree-hugging, pot-smoking pacifist sonofabitch. Please keep in mind that just because I'm not a big supporter of Israel, doesn't mean I support Hamas or other hate groups. Many of those Palestinian terrorist groups are simply hate groups, and nothing more. They aren't seriously interested in trying to make a settlement with the Israel government, all they want to do is continue to fight fo it. They need to accept that they've simply lost that war. How many times do countries need to attack Israel before they realize that is one tough fucking army to beat?

Notice how I didn't post in the torture thread. And, you and I have different definition of drastic and torture.

Aw, shucks, I wanted to hear your opinion on torture. Though I can guess what your answer likely is.

Oh no!!!! Not malodorous bags and discomfort for terrorists. *gasp* Whatever will we do?

So you have no problem with abusing prisoners? Or how about Israel illegally expanding their settlements in the occupied territory, something the US government has voiced displeasure over as well. Just because Palestinians flaunt international laws, that doesn't make it okay for Israel to too. That's my point here.

And I completely live in the real world where I would rather see Israel fight dirty to preserve a race that has been persecuted for millenia instead of fighting a war for another 2000 years or being wiped off the face of the Earth. Do you condone a nation attempting genocide? That is what Hamas condones. If they had their way, they would kill every last Jew. And here you are on their side.

Hamas is a joke, a sad joke, and has been for awhile. They are a hate group, nothing more. I think you're dramatizing the threat to the Jewish population though FTS, there's hardly a genocide going on right now.

Not strapped to their chests, but planting them along the roadside and destroying Taliban vehicles seems fine to me.

In public areas, killing dozens of innocent people? Because that's what Al-Qaeda does.

When it's a matter of preventing genocide, anything you do is on the high moral ground.

It's not a genocide FTS, they aren't fighting Jews to try and kill them because they are Jewish, they're fighting Israel to get their land back. But, since Israel is an almost entirely Jewish nation, that would make most of their soldiers Jewish. So, really, any attack or fighting with Israel could be construed as "genocide". I really don't think there's any genocide going on right now though, that's quite a bit hyperbolic.

And the nation shuts down for Christmas and Easter. IDF forces are training right now to facilitate safety during the Christian holidays. There are Ramadan truces in all battles with Muslims. If only every nation followed the examples of tolerance set by Israel.

I agree that Israel is a socially tolerant nation, definitely. Their policy on the rights of gays and other minorities is exemplary, and among the most liberal in the world. That's something I'll definitely praise them for. I'm just saying, let's not pretend the nation isn't a Jewish nation. Because it is.

Not supporting Israel is an endorsement of Hamas.

...Umm, huh? How does that work? I don't support either side. When did I ever say I supported Hamas, or terrorism? I sure as hell did not. I'm just saying that I strongly dislike the human rights violations that are committed by Israel. How is that voicing my support for Hamas? I definitely do not support or condone Hamas in any way.

Darfur isn't our business. You said today that we should support Africans. That's not our business.

Yeah, because there's an obvious and real issue in both of those countries. There is a genocide in Darfur, there are ruthless and brutal dictators on that continent. That's not the same as the Israel-Palestine situation. Getting involved in the Israel-Palestine situation would be like the US getting involved in the Russian invasion of Georgia last year. It's a military conflict. I see no reason to get involved in a military conflict with such ambiguous motives as this one has. This isn't an issue like the social ones plaguing Africa.

Furthermore, Israel provides us with intelligence, so it is in our best interest to protect them.

Guess I can't argue with you there, you've got a point.

Aren't you glad I made this thread?

 

[FromTheSouth]

Because FTS and I are always getting into random debates in the Bar Room, and we frequently find ourselves asking each other "Why are we discussing this in the Bar Room...", well, now we don't have to anymore FTS. That's right, now we can make them real bonafide posts!

If only there were a bored g-mod who wanted to find them all and bring them in here. We'd get credit for 200 posts today.

FTS and myself were just having a minor debate about the Israel-Palestine conflict, something that's obviously very controversial, and obviously very delicate subject matter, particularly for him. If anyone wants to jump into the discussion, feel free to. THIS INCLUDES YOU RAZOR!

For the third time.

It's a bit more serious than you make it out to be FTS. If it were American soldiers doing this, it'd be all over the news.

True, but if we were the victims of hundreds of terrorist attacks, daily rocket attacks, and attempts at genocide, I don't think the press would be as bad as it was for water boarding. That, obviously is an opinion, but a pretty strong feeling of mine.

I agree with you that violence isn't the answer FTS. You know me man, I'm a damn tree-hugging, pot-smoking pacifist sonofabitch. Please keep in mind that just because I'm not a big supporter of Israel, doesn't mean I support Hamas or other hate groups. Many of those Palestinian terrorist groups are simply hate groups, and nothing more. They aren't seriously interested in trying to make a settlement with the Israel government, all they want to do is continue to fight fo it. They need to accept that they've simply lost that war. How many times do countries need to attack Israel before they realize that is one tough fucking army to beat?

See, here is where we differ. I think they know Israel is a beast militarily. I also think that they are intent on fighting until Israel just gives up. I think Israel can be cut some slack for doing everything it can to end the conflict. It's almost like the justification for using the A-bombs....How much worse would it be if Israel didn't fight a little dirty. I think the only way to stop terrorism is to make people reticent to join, because once they're in, the brainwashing starts. If you can get to young people, and let them know they may have to wear malodorous bags, or worse, you cut the forces down, and make the war winnable.

Aw, shucks, I wanted to hear your opinion on torture. Though I can guess what your answer likely is.

I'm against torture. I just have a looser definition of torture. Battery clamps on the nipples......without consent is torture. Waterboarding doesn't offend me too much. You scare them a little. It's war, it's not pretty, not one bit of it is moral, but it just seems necessary.

So you have no problem with abusing prisoners? Or how about Israel illegally expanding their settlements in the occupied territory, something the US government has voiced displeasure over as well. Just because Palestinians flaunt international laws, that doesn't make it okay for Israel to too. That's my point here.

But my point is that trying maintain the high moral ground isn't working. If you can't win and look good, then just go ahead and win.

Hamas is a joke, a sad joke, and has been for awhile. They are a hate group, nothing more. I think you're dramatizing the threat to the Jewish population though FTS, there's hardly a genocide going on right now.

But they are symbolic of the threat. Iran does advocate the genocide of the Jews, and that threat is becoming more real every day. There is Libya, and Lebanon, and Jordan that could all go back on peace agreements. And they all use fear tactics. Israel striking a little fear back into them seems to be, at the very least, holding them at bay.

In public areas, killing dozens of innocent people? Because that's what Al-Qaeda does.

OK, no. But I don't condone everything Israel does. I don't think that flying helicopters into neighborhoods to get one cell and anything else that's there is bad, but that's stopped. And like I said, the situation warrants a little leeway. Israel acts in defense. Anything they do offensively would trigger a chain reaction.

It's not a genocide FTS, they aren't fighting Jews to try and kill them because they are Jewish, they're fighting Israel to get their land back. But, since Israel is an almost entirely Jewish nation, that would make most of their soldiers Jewish. So, really, any attack or fighting with Israel could be construed as "genocide". I really don't think there's any genocide going on right now though, that's quite a bit hyperbolic.

Why do you think that genocide isn't happening? Israel has to fight like hell for preservation.

I agree that Israel is a socially tolerant nation, definitely. Their policy on the rights of gays and other minorities is exemplary, and among the most liberal in the world. That's something I'll definitely praise them for. I'm just saying, let's not pretend the nation isn't a Jewish nation. Because it is.

It's a Jewish nation in the same way this is a Christian nation. It might be the basis for some of the laws, but it is not THE law. It's a nation of Jews, not a Jewish nation. I love word games. I know that it's semantics, but Iran is a theocracy, and I do not think Israel and Iran are comparable.

...Umm, huh? How does that work? I don't support either side. When did I ever say I supported Hamas, or terrorism? I sure as hell did not. I'm just saying that I strongly dislike the human rights violations that are committed by Israel. How is that voicing my support for Hamas? I definitely do not support or condone Hamas in any way.

Yeah, I went for style points on that one.

Yeah, because there's an obvious and real issue in both of those countries. There is a genocide in Darfur, there are ruthless and brutal dictators on that continent. That's not the same as the Israel-Palestine situation. Getting involved in the Israel-Palestine situation would be like the US getting involved in the Russian invasion of Georgia last year. It's a military conflict. I see no reason to get involved in a military conflict with such ambiguous motives as this one has. This isn't an issue like the social ones plaguing Africa.

And this is disagreement number two. Israel is one bad falafel from all out attack from their neighbors. Instead of waiting for a big fire, they put out the small ones to keep them from flaring up too high.

Guess I can't argue with you there, you've got a point.

Aren't you glad I made this thread?

This is going to get testy. I am going to read this in one year and see where we've gone.

 

[X]

If only there were a bored g-mod who wanted to find them all and bring them in here. We'd get credit for 200 posts today.

This is long overdue man.

True, but if we were the victims of hundreds of terrorist attacks, daily rocket attacks, and attempts at genocide, I don't think the press would be as bad as it was for water boarding. That, obviously is an opinion, but a pretty strong feeling of mine.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to our definitions of torture though. If the Nazis and Japanese torturers used waterboarding, it likely isn't something to be used or condoned.

See, here is where we differ. I think they know Israel is a beast militarily. I also think that they are intent on fighting until Israel just gives up. I think Israel can be cut some slack for doing everything it can to end the conflict. It's almost like the justification for using the A-bombs....How much worse would it be if Israel didn't fight a little dirty. I think the only way to stop terrorism is to make people reticent to join, because once they're in, the brainwashing starts. If you can get to young people, and let them know they may have to wear malodorous bags, or worse, you cut the forces down, and make the war winnable.

I agree with you about trying to stop the spread of brainwashing-esque terrorist cells by getting to the young people, but fighting dirty isn't going to help that cause. If anything it's going to enrage Palestinian youth more, and actually make them turn to a group like Hamas.

I think there needs to be some serious discussion between the two parties. Serious discussion, not the kind involving Hamas.

But my point is that trying maintain the high moral ground isn't working. If you can't win and look good, then just go ahead and win.

Which is where we disagree. You support that the ends justify the means. I don't.

But they are symbolic of the threat. Iran does advocate the genocide of the Jews, and that threat is becoming more real every day. There is Libya, and Lebanon, and Jordan that could all go back on peace agreements. And they all use fear tactics. Israel striking a little fear back into them seems to be, at the very least, holding them at bay.

Iran is insane, and we can't expect anything other than that insanity out of them. However I'm sure even they aren't crazy enough to launch an attack on Israel. They know god damn well that the US would get involved in that one in about ten seconds.

OK, no. But I don't condone everything Israel does. I don't think that flying helicopters into neighborhoods to get one cell and anything else that's there is bad, but that's stopped. And like I said, the situation warrants a little leeway. Israel acts in defense. Anything they do offensively would trigger a chain reaction.

So I guess we agree than technically. I'm not saying that I support the Palestinians and oppose the Israelis, and I hope you aren't getting that impression from me, I have distaste for some of the tactics used by both sides.

Why do you think that genocide isn't happening? Israel has to fight like hell for preservation.

Show me any evidence of a genocide, or a serious threat to the existence of the Jewish people, and I'll concede this to you. But what is going on right now between the Israelis and Palestinians is not genocide. It's simply not, not unless you consider Arab terrorists attacking white Christian soldiers as genocide as well. It's a military conflict, not one of race.

It's a Jewish nation in the same way this is a Christian nation. It might be the basis for some of the laws, but it is not THE law. It's a nation of Jews, not a Jewish nation. I love word games. I know that it's semantics, but Iran is a theocracy, and I do not think Israel and Iran are comparable.

Christians do not account for nearly as large of a percentage of the population in America as Jewish people do in Israel.

Yeah, I went for style points on that one.

I was hurt.

And this is disagreement number two. Israel is one bad falafel from all out attack from their neighbors. Instead of waiting for a big fire, they put out the small ones to keep them from flaring up too high.

And what has been the result of every attempt at that against Israel? Total and utter failure. At this point I think all of these nations you think are a "falafel away from attack" realize that attacking Israel, especially in this day and age, is a very foolish move.

This is going to get testy. I am going to read this in one year and see where we've gone.

Aye, this should be good. We should keep jumping from topic to topic though, it sucks when a certain topic gets beaten to death and grows boring. This thing has Thread of the Year potential.

 

[FromTheSouth]

This is long overdue man.

This is usually where the agreements would stop. I'm softening in my old age.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree when it comes to our definitions of torture though. If the Nazis and Japanese torturers used waterboarding, it likely isn't something to be used or condoned.

Racist. I wouldn't call waterboarding torture. Pulling out someone's fingernails is torture. Breaking their fingers with a hammer is torture. The rack is torture. Forcing someone to watch Lex Luger matches is torture. Waterboarding is like a trip to a horror movie.

I agree with you about trying to stop the spread of brainwashing-esque terrorist cells by getting to the young people, but fighting dirty isn't going to help that cause. If anything it's going to enrage Palestinian youth more, and actually make them turn to a group like Hamas.

This is another example of my vision of the future being different that yours. I see a mixture of fear and propaganda going a long way. Like I said, this war that's been going on since the Jews beat the Persians will continue for another 3,000 years if Israel doesn't make a move to end it. Hamas has no desire to end it, because it hurts recruiting. Israel has to end it. Fuck style points.

I think there needs to be some serious discussion between the two parties. Serious discussion, not the kind involving Hamas.

Hamas is an entrenched member of the PLO now. I agree, except that it's not plausible.

Which is where we disagree. You support that the ends justify the means. I don't.

Not generally. I guess I am bit of a consequentialist when it comes to moral relativity.

Iran is insane, and we can't expect anything other than that insanity out of them. However I'm sure even they aren't crazy enough to launch an attack on Israel. They know god damn well that the US would get involved in that one in about ten seconds.

But it's coming. Israel keeps rumbling that they're going to go bomb the Iranian nuclear sites. I can't say that I would be against that action in and of itself. However, the consequences for Israel would be dire, and it might set off WWIII.

So I guess we agree than technically. I'm not saying that I support the Palestinians and oppose the Israelis, and I hope you aren't getting that impression from me, I have distaste for some of the tactics used by both sides.

No, I know where you're coming from. I don't always think what Israel does is kosher lmao either. But when I separate myself from America, I can see why they do it.

Show me any evidence of a genocide, or a serious threat to the existence of the Jewish people, and I'll concede this to you. But what is going on right now between the Israelis and Palestinians is not genocide. It's simply not, not unless you consider Arab terrorists attacking white Christian soldiers as genocide as well. It's a military conflict, not one of race.

Israel is surrounded by people that think that the Jewish people are not fit to live on this Earth. We have been enslaved, deposed, murdered, and persecuted throughout history. We are a bit on edge at times. But, some idiot over there getting a hold of a nuke is all it takes for genocide.

Christians do not account for nearly as large of a percentage of the population in America as Jewish people do in Israel.

You couldn't say that when Israel was reestablished.

I was hurt.

Well, I guess this calls for a bonerjam!!!

And what has been the result of every attempt at that against Israel? Total and utter failure. At this point I think all of these nations you think are a "falafel away from attack" realize that attacking Israel, especially in this day and age, is a very foolish move.

But the people who attack us define victory in odd ways. Just getting us riled up gives them propaganda material, and that is as viable as a weapon in that region as any gun. Ten Muslim deaths lead to 100 recruits, no matter the justification.

Aye, this should be good. We should keep jumping from topic to topic though, it sucks when a certain topic gets beaten to death and grows boring. This thread has Thread of the Year potential.

Thread of the decade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FromTheSouth]

Pillay said rights violations included arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment, extrajudicial execution, forced eviction and home demolition, settlement expansion and related violence and restrictions on freedom of movement and expression.

This ^^^^ is from a post earlier in this debate.


I want to state, that I learned a bit more about this while watching the Israeli PM, Benjamin Netanyahu, speak at the UN today. These charges, levied by the United Nations, were all in response to actions taken after a round of rocket attacks. Israeli intelligence pinpointed, and the satellite images stil exist, the rockets attacks as coming from schools, homes, and mosques. These attacks continued for days. The Israeli Air Force was the ordered to drop leaflets over the area, warning of an attack, and advising evacuation. Text messages were sent to the occupied territories, phone calls were made. There was a full weeks warning before the attacks started. Israel then bombed the neighborhood that the attacks were centered in. How can you call this rampant violations of human rights? The UN does, but the UN is impotent, anti-semitic, terror appeasing meeting of the weakest willed individuals in the world. What other nation gives a weeks notice to the specific neighborhood they are going to bomb? No one. Israel did everything they could to limit collateral damage.

This is what I meant by playing dirty. You're not supposed to bomb neighborhoods, but when your attackers choose that neighborhood as their base, hide amongst the women and children, and refuse to wear uniforms, what do you do? Do you just allow the attacks to continue? Of course not, you weight the options, and realize that your citizens are going to die if some of their's don't. You say a prayer and ask for God's forgiveness, and then you do what is necessary to protect your people.

 

[X]

Yep, it's that time again. As usual we end up discussing political issues in the Bar Room, so here we are again! Today's topic is healthcare in America.

No, I'm sure free health care is a good idea, but here in the real world, the government can't run it efficiently. I mean, it's fun to live in a fantasy world where everyone lives in a collective and runs around happy, naked, and free, but frankly, that's not going to happen and anyone who thinks it is or wishes for it is naive, at best.

...But it does work FTS. It works all over the globe every single day. The UK, Sweden, France, Canada, and really most countries on this planet have a form of universal healthcare. If it works for everyone else, why can't it work for us? And don't give me this "People die waiting in lines in those countries!" BS, because citing what might happen to 0.01% of the population isn't a valid reason to excuse an entire system that has been proven to work around the globe.

That's dumb. Why is everyone left of center so determined to demonize profits.

I'm not trying to demonize profits, I'm trying to demonize certain things that have been exploited for profit in this country, like education, and like our prison system, and most blatantly our healthcare system.

So, you're saying doctors should work for free?

Not at all. But insurance companies shouldn't stand to profit from the deaths of human beings. It's blood money. Doctors don't stand to make more money if their patient dies, infact it's the opposite if anything.

Insurance isn't a right. Nowhere in our Constitution does it say that everyone has a right to free health care. We provide it for the poor and the elderly, and everyone else should get a fucking job and pay for it themselves.

So what if it's not in the Constitution? A whole lot of shit was left out of the Constitution's first draft, things that we later came to recognize as being essential human rights. If good health isn't a human right, than what the fuck is? No one deserves to suffer and die because they don't have enough money FTS. No one.

I don't get it, if you're against socialized healthcare, why aren't you against the other forms of socialism in our country? Like our fire and police departments? Your building is on fire? Pay for that fucking fire to get put out damnit! That's basically what you're saying here, if our police and fire department systems have shown that socialism has worked, I see no reason why healthcare couldn't. It already DOES work for many other countries around the globe, countries with far better quality of life rates than ourselves.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Yep, it's that time again. As usual we end up discussing political issues in the Bar Room, so here we are again! Today's topic is healthcare in America.

Yeah, this one will be short. I've been round and round with everyone on this one.

...But it does work FTS. It works all over the globe every single day. The UK, Sweden, France, Canada, and really most countries on this planet have a form of universal healthcare.

We do too. It's Medicare and Medicaid, and they are abysmal. I think the insurance companies could run it better. The government has allowed energy coops, and if they would do the same with healthcare, we'd be fine. I just think that the idea of the government running it is scary.

If it works for everyone else, why can't it work for us? And don't give me this "People die waiting in lines in those countries!" BS, because citing what might happen to 0.01% of the population isn't a valid reason to excuse an entire system that has been proven to work around the globe.

It's not just the people who die waiting in line. It's the ones who suffer for months on end waiting for an MRI, when it's a non emergency situation. It's fucking stupid to think that the government prioritizing procedures is a good idea. When your knee hurts and you can't walk, it's an emergency to you. It takes literally a tenth of a second for google to pull up thousands of cases like this. I'm sorry, if I sprain an ankle, I want it taken care if immediately. This doesn't happen consistently in countries with national healthcare. Use Google, it will tell you that I am right.

I'm not trying to demonize profits, I'm trying to demonize certain things that have been exploited for profit in this country, like education, and like our prison system, and most blatantly our healthcare system.

Insurance was started by private industry. So, just because the worst President this country could ask for, the poster child of the do nothing congress, a lwayer for an organization that teaches hookers how to smuggle teen prostitutes and cheat on their taxes, a unapologetic socialist, a liar, and a failue thinks it's a good idea, he should be able to take over an entire industry? That's fucking dumb, and you know it. Just because the government thinks it's a good idea, doesn't mean they own it. Take the automobile for inst...oops. The stupid fucking jackass failure already tried that one too.

Not at all. But insurance companies shouldn't stand to profit from the deaths of human beings. It's blood money. Doctors don't stand to make more money if their patient dies, infact it's the opposite if anything.

They don't profit from the death of people. They profit from keeping them alive. It's the government that pockets the extra money from less people feeding off of their coiffures. We've got your money for this year, so go ahead and die.

So what if it's not in the Constitution? A whole lot of shit was left out of the Constitution's first draft, things that we later came to recognize as being essential human rights. If good health isn't a human right, than what the fuck is? No one deserves to suffer and die because they don't have enough money FTS. No one.

And no one deserves to have to give more of their money to pay for someone who chooses to fail in life. And, while you can give me all the examples of people who grew up with bad lives and are doomed by the system, the fact is, opportunity exists for everyone, and if people choose to not take advantage of those opportunities, then fuck em. I already pay taxes for welfare, why the fuck should I have to pay more?

I don't get it, if you're against socialized healthcare, why aren't you against the other forms of socialism in our country? Like our fire and police departments? Your building is on fire? Pay for that fucking fire to get put out damnit! That's basically what you're saying here, if our police and fire department systems have shown that socialism has worked, I see no reason why healthcare couldn't. It already DOES work for many other countries around the globe, countries with far better quality of life rates than ourselves.

This isn't a reach at all, is it? If we could actually talk about the topic at hand instead of making loose connection that don't work, that would be great. I pay for fire, police, and ambulance service because those protect my immediate concerns. I pay for county hospitals so the crackhead with the bullet in his ass can live. I do not pay taxes so that someone else can choose not to work and take advantage of yet another entitlement.

 

[X]

Yeah, this one will be short. I've been round and round with everyone on this one.

Yeah I know, but I've stayed out of the discussion so far. Why not have a quick go-round with you about health care, keep our minds sharp on this Sunday afternoon.

We do too. It's Medicare and Medicaid, and they are abysmal.

I think abysmal is being a bit harsh FTS. They aren't run with great efficiency, but we're certainly better off than if we didn't have them at all. Why is it such an issue with those on the right that we might run into some trouble or lose some money with universal healthcare (we would actually be saving money in the long run), but it's well worth it to provide health care to everyone in our country. I know you love your capitalism FTS, but we shouldn't be trying to find profits in every single facet of life from prisons to cancer patients.

I think the insurance companies could run it better. The government has allowed energy coops, and if they would do the same with healthcare, we'd be fine. I just think that the idea of the government running it is scary.

Why is that scary? The government runs our fire stations, our police departments, our highways. Who else should handle this? You can say the insurance companies, but they're just as bad as the government is, if not worse.

It's not just the people who die waiting in line. It's the ones who suffer for months on end waiting for an MRI, when it's a non emergency situation.

Who's suffering for months on end waiting for MRIs? An MRI isn't going to take away their pain. If you don't want to wait, you can choose to pay for your own insurance and get a higher quality. But not having any access at all is unacceptable.

It's fucking stupid to think that the government prioritizing procedures is a good idea. When your knee hurts and you can't walk, it's an emergency to you. It takes literally a tenth of a second for google to pull up thousands of cases like this. I'm sorry, if I sprain an ankle, I want it taken care if immediately. This doesn't happen consistently in countries with national healthcare. Use Google, it will tell you that I am right.

But the health care proposition would still allow you to get your ankle taken care of immediately if you want it to. You can still purchase your own private health care, but there should be a public option. Everyone should have access, everyone. If you love your private insurance so much, you can keep it. This isn't going to affect you.

Insurance was started by private industry. So, just because the worst President this country could ask for, the poster child of the do nothing congress, a lwayer for an organization that teaches hookers how to smuggle teen prostitutes and cheat on their taxes, a unapologetic socialist, a liar, and a failue thinks it's a good idea, he should be able to take over an entire industry? That's fucking dumb, and you know it.

What's dumb is that absolutely asinine description you just gave to Obama. It's clear that your hatred for him stems from the fact that he's a Democrat. Because anyone looking at the man rationally knows he isn't a fucking socialist. If Obama is a socialist, than FDR is fucking Karl Marx himself. A little bit of socialism doesn't hurt FTS, countries like Sweden have proven this to be definitively true. And ACORN does SO much more good than what you perceive as bad FTS. Of course you don't like them, they register poor voters who almost universally always vote for Democrats.

Just because the government thinks it's a good idea, doesn't mean they own it. Take the automobile for inst...oops. The stupid fucking jackass failure already tried that one too.

Obama hasn't done very well with economic reform thus far, but this topic isn't about that. The policies he's enacted with the automobile industry though is hardly going to give long-lasting damage to our country.

They don't profit from the death of people. They profit from keeping them alive. It's the government that pockets the extra money from less people feeding off of their coiffures. We've got your money for this year, so go ahead and die.

Of course they profit off of illness FTS, if they don't think your worth the expensive surgery you need, they won't give it to you. I could cite you a shitload of Google entries of stories like this too if I wanted.

And no one deserves to have to give more of their money to pay for someone who chooses to fail in life.

Now that's just fucking ridiculous. So we shouldn't try to help those who have made mistakes? So I guess your against drug rehabilitation as well than? Are you against homeless shelters? "Fuck that hobo, he shouldn't have been a crackhead, go die of pneumonia in the street!"

And, while you can give me all the examples of people who grew up with bad lives and are doomed by the system, the fact is, opportunity exists for everyone, and if people choose to not take advantage of those opportunities, then fuck em. I already pay taxes for welfare, why the fuck should I have to pay more?

Oh I don't know, to save lives? If saving lives isn't worth your money than what the fuck is? You pay taxes already for things like welfare, is a raise in taxes really that big of a deal? My mother lived in Sweden for nearly twenty years and she can tell you from first hand experience that the higher taxes in the country are well worth it for the high quality of life and health care they receive, and just about everyone in that country agrees with that assessment.

This isn't a reach at all, is it? If we could actually talk about the topic at hand instead of making loose connection that don't work, that would be great. I pay for fire, police, and ambulance service because those protect my immediate concerns.

But you still pay for them to help everyone else as well FTS. You don't sign a contract with the police department to protect you alone, you help pay for everyone's safety. Everyone pitches in. What is the big problem with this? It works.

I pay for county hospitals so the crackhead with the bullet in his ass can live. I do not pay taxes so that someone else can choose not to work and take advantage of yet another entitlement.

Yeah, because a public option is obviously going to make people think "Hey, I don't have to work anymore!"...how do you reach that conclusion? People still need money to live, it isn't like welfare where they receive a check in the mail, universal healthcare isn't going to buy them food and diapers for their children.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Yeah I know, but I've stayed out of the discussion so far. Why not have a quick go-round with you about health care, keep our minds sharp on this Sunday afternoon.



I think abysmal is being a bit harsh FTS. They aren't run with great efficiency, but we're certainly better off than if we didn't have them at all. Why is it such an issue with those on the right that we might run into some trouble or lose some money with universal healthcare (we would actually be saving money in the long run), but it's well worth it to provide health care to everyone in our country. I know you love your capitalism FTS, but we shouldn't be trying to find profits in every single facet of life from prisons to cancer patients.

I don't know how we'd save money. Under the Baccus plan I would be spending two and a half times on my health care what I am now. $960 a year now, $2500 a year under the government. And, the thought that I could keep my current coverage is bullshit, because the government will be taxing the shit out of the insurance companies to pay for the plan, and that would be passed on to me.

Why is that scary? The government runs our fire stations, our police departments, our highways. Who else should handle this? You can say the insurance companies, but they're just as bad as the government is, if not worse.

The local governments run these. Local government stands a chance at being efficient. The federal government doesn't, especially with Nobama in charge. I call him Nobama because there isn't a spending bill he votes no one.

Who's suffering for months on end waiting for MRIs? An MRI isn't going to take away their pain. If you don't want to wait, you can choose to pay for your own insurance and get a higher quality. But not having any access at all is unacceptable.

Because letting the government run insurance rates through the roof will solve problems. It's not like keeping what we have at the current rate is an option at all.

And the attitude that an MRI isn't going to fix anything is exactly what I'm talking about. National healthcare cuts corners on diagnostic procedures. Once again, use Google. Nothing can be fixed until it is diagnosed. If we've learned anything from the 700,000,000 dollars of unspent stimulus money, it's that that the government isn't interested in paying out immediately. The government will hold onto money and make people wait for diagnostic procedures. The government still hasn't paid dealers for Cash for Clunkers. Once they have our money, they don't want to part with it.

But the health care proposition would still allow you to get your ankle taken care of immediately if you want it to. You can still purchase your own private health care, but there should be a public option. Everyone should have access, everyone. If you love your private insurance so much, you can keep it. This isn't going to affect you.

But it isn't a public Option. It's a public "our new taxes raised your rates so high that you have no choice but to sign up with us" option. This dumbass President thinks that just because he grew up poor everyone else should have to as well.

What's dumb is that absolutely asinine description you just gave to Obama. It's clear that your hatred for him stems from the fact that he's a Democrat. Because anyone looking at the man rationally knows he isn't a fucking socialist. If Obama is a socialist, than FDR is fucking Karl Marx himself. A little bit of socialism doesn't hurt FTS, countries like Sweden have proven this to be definitively true. And ACORN does SO much more good than what you perceive as bad FTS. Of course you don't like them, they register poor voters who almost universally always vote for Democrats.

The only think asinine is your constant support of the man. He is a corrupt liar who only associates with other corrupt liars. All the bullshit you spew about Bush is true of Obama. It has nothing to do with the party he's in. I constantly celebrate Bill Clinton. It's about the lies he spews, his failures, and this idea that Capitalism is so bad. All he wants to do is make people slaves to the government. He hates freedom, which is why he refuses to fight for it. He's a corrput peice of shit President, and I will be so happy the day he leaves office, in three years.

And ACORN registers lots of voters, whether they're alive or not (Nevada). That organization is almost as corrupt as Obama. How many tax dodgers did he put in high office this week? Oh, it's only a child molester now. Well, that's better. Call me when he's done rewarding criminals with jobs in his administration.

Obama hasn't done very well with economic reform thus far, but this topic isn't about that. The policies he's enacted with the automobile industry though is hardly going to give long-lasting damage to our country.

No, giving control of a company to the unions will have long lasting negative effects on the country. That' stupid to think otherwise. The Unions are the reason the industry is in that mess, and now they have more power.

Of course they profit off of illness FTS, if they don't think your worth the expensive surgery you need, they won't give it to you. I could cite you a shitload of Google entries of stories like this too if I wanted.

Insurance companies grant every realistic request. Sometimes they deny requests for experimental procedures. England denies MRI's left and right so that no one can get treatment because they don't know what the fuck is wrong with them.

Now that's just fucking ridiculous. So we shouldn't try to help those who have made mistakes? So I guess your against drug rehabilitation as well than? Are you against homeless shelters? "Fuck that hobo, he shouldn't have been a crackhead, go die of pneumonia in the street!"

Honestly, people make choices, and I am tired of paying for their mistakes. Where was the government to pay for my DUI? Too busy giving money to crack mom who want to have eleven children. I don't understand why I have to pay for my own mistakes just because I'm not part of a giant democratic voting bloc. Can you explain that to me, or is it just a big coincidence?

Oh I don't know, to save lives? If saving lives isn't worth your money than what the fuck is? You pay taxes already for things like welfare, is a raise in taxes really that big of a deal? My mother lived in Sweden for nearly twenty years and she can tell you from first hand experience that the higher taxes in the country are well worth it for the high quality of life and health care they receive, and just about everyone in that country agrees with that assessment.

I pay enough already, and raising my taxes to pay for more people to make bad decisions doesn't interest me.

But you still pay for them to help everyone else as well FTS. You don't sign a contract with the police department to protect you alone, you help pay for everyone's safety. Everyone pitches in. What is the big problem with this? It works.

That has fucking nothing to do with healthcare. The police maintain order. National healthcare encourages hypochondiracs to run up my tax liability. I pay enough already.

Yeah, because a public option is obviously going to make people think "Hey, I don't have to work anymore!"...how do you reach that conclusion? People still need money to live, it isn't like welfare where they receive a check in the mail, universal healthcare isn't going to buy them food and diapers for their children.

Whatever, it's a stupid fucking idea.

I'm not debating this anymore either. National healthcare is another example of lefty entitlements that enslave people to the government in order for the left to maintain power. The government demonizes profits and uses these lies to try and pass their initiatives. For all you say about Bush, all of you, you can go fuck yourselves, because this ignorant jackass that people like you elected is going to run this country straight into the ground. Everything was fine until the left took control of congress, and since they got the White House it is even worse. You all are just happy to keep getting free stuff from the government, and enjoy being told that someone cheated to get rich, not that they worked hard, that you are content to let it happen.

 

[X]

Well, I wish I could have responded to FTS' response about healthcare, but unfortunately it was more one giant insult filled with talking points than an actual rebuttal, and FTS kind of admitted that. So, on to our latest bar room argument, taken from this thread: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?p=1433799#post1433799

We're discussing Obama.

That's not for sure.

So far? It sure is for sure.

Obama has done less with his mandate than I thought was even possible.

He's done a few things. Lifting the ban on stem cell research comes to mind, must I really pull out that Obameter link again FTS? He's certainly done things.

I thought he would do something with the sweeping power he took over with. All he's really done is piss off everyone in the middle east, not close Gitmo, and go on vacation. Whoo fucking hoo.

Cool he was on vacation? That should be good compared to how long Bush spent on vacation and on his ranch.

The Obama haters are realists.

They sure as fuck are not, the Obama haters compare him to fucking Hitler and use more hyperbole than I thought was humanly possible. They're fucking clowns.

They see a man with unprecedented support and power squander it all and fall into the partisan bickering he promised to start. What has he changed? What reason do I have for hope? Absolutely nothing.

Maybe so, but comparing the man to Adolf fucking Hitler is absurd.

Furthermore, and I hope someone can answer this. I hope it's X. X, you constantly railed on Bush for wasting the lives of American soldiers. I can find the posts if you want.

Yep, I'm against most war FTS.

Now, Obama rushes cash for clunkers, rushes a stimulus, and tries to ramrod national healthcare, a plan that won't even take effect until 2013, down our throats

We need national healthcare, be it sooner or later. It needs to be taken care of right now.

and yet, he refuses to talk to the commander in Afghanistan and has moved as slow as molasses to send more troops to Afghanistan while more American boys die every day.

False. In his first few months in office he sent 4,000 more troops to Afghanistan and helped construct a warplan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29898698/

No matter what you think of whether we should be fighting anywhere or not, we're there, and we need more troops to save American lives.

He's sent more troops. Are we hating on him now because he isn't perfect and doesn't send the exact amount of troops needed every 2 weeks or something? If you're hating on Obama for this, you must fucking despise Bush for constantly derailing funds and troops from Afghanistan to Iraq.

 

[X]

Yep, it's that time again. We've gotten into another random political debate in the Bar Room. Post count = penis size, so here we are. This argument is taken from this thread:

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?p=1503442

Anyone who defends anyone who is associated with a group whose only goal is to get into little boys pants is a sick fuck.

Okay so if I were to say a statement like "Hitler did alot of good things for Germany before he invaded Poland and started his genocide", that'd make me a sick fuck for defending an earlier part of his life? All Jennings said was that he admired Hay for founding a completely DIFFERENT homosexual rights group that has absolutely ZERO to do with NAMBLA. Zip, zilch, nada, nothing.

Support for the organization is just as bad as being in it. Tell me one productive thing that organization as done.

HE NEVER SUPPORTED THAT ORGANIZATION, EVER!

He was a speaker for STORM, a group of Marxists who call for a proletariat revolution. Yep, like I said, Commie.

To protest police brutality. Yeah, what a dick.

OK, I am firmly against Jennings policy of not reporting a relationship between a teacher and a fifteen year old student. The "safe schools" czar probably shouldn't be obstructing justice in order to protect a child molester.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/06/fox-news-correction-false_n_311734.html

The kid was of legal age in Massachusetts. 16 is the age of consent there. Fox News had to issue a damn apology for that bullshit. Come on man, don't you look into any of these stories? Or do you just hear them on some radio show and just go from there?

I am against Communism.

That's nice. But you pretending that communists are immoral people and inferior to you is fucking insulting and is the kind of shit that led to McCarthyism.

Anything else about their policies I need to hit?

And, whenever you want to address the tax dodger being put in charge of the Department of the Treasury, I'll be waiting.

Something he has apologized for time after time and that happened years and years ago. I really fail to see how this makes him a terrible human being and incapable of doing his job.

 

[Minor League Brian]

Man, I hate when you too argue. I agree with FTS on the bare bones of most of what he says, but then he gets deeper into things and I think he's a loon. Then I agree with X often enough, but he gets up on that high horse and it drives me mad. Not to mention some of your his views I think are just plain silly.

Dear God its hard to pick sides and join in.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Yep, it's that time again. We've gotten into another random political debate in the Bar Room. Post count = penis size, so here we are. This argument is taken from this thread:

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?p=1503442

Okay so if I were to say a statement like "Hitler did alot of good things for Germany before he invaded Poland and started his genocide", that'd make me a sick fuck for defending an earlier part of his life? All Jennings said was that he admired Hay for founding a completely DIFFERENT homosexual rights group that has absolutely ZERO to do with NAMBLA. Zip, zilch, nada, nothing.

Hitlet built the roads in Germany!!!! (because they would allow his tanks to get to Poland faster.) That's like saying I would be a good guy for lighting a fire to warm someone before dumping it over and burning his house down.

HE NEVER SUPPORTED THAT ORGANIZATION, EVER!

You're probably right. But you shouldn't make statements in support of high ranking officials in that organization.

To protest police brutality. Yeah, what a dick.

Another fun issue for another day. I think people are too hard on the police, and it's gotten to a point where a cop can't even defend himself from a drugged out, belligerent asshat who attacks him. But, just like with Obama, Jennings and Jones continually involve themselves with group of questionable mission, and those organizations should and do reflect badly on the President. That is the way the game is played.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/06/fox-news-correction-false_n_311734.html

Yes, please accuse me of only reading neo-con monthly and then quote the Huffington Post. Pot, meet kettle.

The kid was of legal age in Massachusetts. 16 is the age of consent there. Fox News had to issue a damn apology for that bullshit. Come on man, don't you look into any of these stories? Or do you just hear them on some radio show and just go from there?

Safe school czar encouraging a child to continue a relationship with anyone who picked him up at a bus station.....

He is making the schools safe.....for predators.

That's nice. But you pretending that communists are immoral people and inferior to you is fucking insulting and is the kind of shit that led to McCarthyism.

I never said that. I just said they have no place in government. The job of the government is to use the prescribed methods to fix the situation, not change the fundamental role of the government.

Something he has apologized for time after time and that happened years and years ago. I really fail to see how this makes him a terrible human being and incapable of doing his job.

But, when Michale Chertoff had one illegal immigrant working for him, his name was run into the ground for fucking weeks, but suddenly it's a bad thing when the other side plays the game?

 

[X]

Hitler built the roads in Germany!!!! (because they would allow his tanks to get to Poland faster.) That's like saying I would be a good guy for lighting a fire to warm someone before dumping it over and burning his house down.

See, this statement might be correct if it weren't for the next thing I'm about to tell you...

You're probably right. But you shouldn't make statements in support of high ranking officials in that organization.

Harry Hay has never been a member of NAMBLA either. Ever.

Another fun issue for another day. I think people are too hard on the police, and it's gotten to a point where a cop can't even defend himself from a drugged out, belligerent asshat who attacks him. But, just like with Obama, Jennings and Jones continually involve themselves with group of questionable mission, and those organizations should and do reflect badly on the President. That is the way the game is played.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you've never known any shady characters FTS? Barack Obama has met and associated with thousands of people. Pick any politician out of a hat, and I guarantee you can find shady people they've dealt with in the past. What I fail to see is how this reflects poorly on Obama.

Yes, please accuse me of only reading neo-con monthly and then quote the Huffington Post. Pot, meet kettle.

I guess a driver's license isn't proof enough for you? The boy was of legal age. There is no issue here, no "obstruction of justice", nothing illegal whatsoever.

Safe school czar encouraging a child to continue a relationship with anyone who picked him up at a bus station.....

Yes, how dare he tell the boy to use a condom. It'd be better if he just said "You dumbass!", sent him on his way, and the kid gets AIDs. There was nothing illegal of the relationship. He wasn't a child, he was sixteen years old which is the age of consent in Massachusetts. Again, nothing illegal here. These allegations are nothing but a thinly veiled smear attempt at a man for being homosexual.

He is making the schools safe.....for predators.

I'd love to see you back that statement up.

I never said that. I just said they have no place in government. The job of the government is to use the prescribed methods to fix the situation, not change the fundamental role of the government.

Oh okay, so can I assume you're in support of the elimination of these political parties in the United States altogether? People don't have the right to choose their own politics in America anymore?

But, when Michale Chertoff had one illegal immigrant working for him, his name was run into the ground for fucking weeks, but suddenly it's a bad thing when the other side plays the game?

When did I ever say anything about Chertoff?

 

[FromTheSouth]

See, this statement might be correct if it weren't for the next thing I'm about to tell you...



Harry Hay has never been a member of NAMBLA either. Ever.

Man, I am not going to look for the article where a member from the 80's said he can't remember a meeting not attended by Hay. He may have never been a card carrying pedophile, but he was an ardent supporter.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you've never known any shady characters FTS? Barack Obama has met and associated with thousands of people. Pick any politician out of a hat, and I guarantee you can find shady people they've dealt with in the past. What I fail to see is how this reflects poorly on Obama.

But I don't appoint them to high ranking positions in the government.

I guess a driver's license isn't proof enough for you? The boy was of legal age. There is no issue here, no "obstruction of justice", nothing illegal whatsoever.

He was 16. The legal age to marry in Utah is like 4, that doesn't mean it's right.

Yes, how dare he tell the boy to use a condom. It'd be better if he just said "You dumbass!", sent him on his way, and the kid gets AIDs. There was nothing illegal of the relationship. He wasn't a child, he was sixteen years old which is the age of consent in Massachusetts. Again, nothing illegal here. These allegations are nothing but a thinly veiled smear attempt at a man for being homosexual.

I don't think it's a smear against a homosexual. It's a smear against Obama. Take it for what it is, but the other side did the same thing to Bush. That's just how it goes. No one is above it.

I'd love to see you back that statement up.

He encouraged a relationship between a teenager and an adult.

Oh okay, so can I assume you're in support of the elimination of these political parties in the United States altogether? People don't have the right to choose their own politics in America anymore?

We should get rid of them all. It would eliminate party line voting and force people to vote based on issues, in a perfect world. My parents would just vote for the white guy.

When did I ever say anything about Chertoff?

I am equating this to the uproar over Chertoff's maid.