Well, Israel's Gone Batshit Crazy

[Razor]

This thread requires a bit of backstory.

1) Israel has a longstanding blockade against Gaza. You know, the whole "they bomb our citizens" thing. Alright, I can dig. A blockade can block the flow of weapons and whatnot into Gaza, as the Israelis believe is necessary. Way to defend your country.

2) Gaza has become more than just blockaded. The Red Cross has been denied access, as has AP journalists. Gaza is in dire need of medicine and building supplies. You know, to keep their citizens from dying of the flu and to rebuild those buildings that got bombed.

3) An international flotilla that included EU politicians formed in international waters. The flotilla was not armed, but did include 10,000 tons of aid materials. A Holocaust survivor and a Nobel Laureate were on board.

4) The flotilla floated along, in direct defiance of the Israel blockade.

Now we have a live feed that shows Israeli commandos air dropping onto a Turkish vessel and shooting unarmed civilians. CNN is reporting 9 dead as of the posting of this thread, I have read elsewhere that up to 19 are dead and around 30 are wounded.

Israel is claiming that their military was being threatened with live fire from the flotilla, so they attacked to protect their own soldiers.

Turkey is understandably pissed. Civilians have stormed the Israeli embassy and refused to allow anyone in or out. International outrage has been seen. The United States has officially come out saying:

[The White House] "deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy."

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All I have to say is...wow. The story from Israel makes no sense at all.

For one, what international flotilla that is making a point of peacefully sending aid to Gaza would actually attack Israeli forces with:

"severe physical violence, including live fire, weapons, knives and clubs."

While the UN does not support the blockade, and therefore any attempt to enforce it by Israel can not be seen as internationally justified, Israel's boarding of the vessels was necessary for the blockade to remain intact.

However, that does not excuse the showing of violence today. No flotilla named the "Freedom Flotilla" is going to attack Israeli troops. That's ******ed, and for Israel to even try to claim such a happening is hilariously faulty.

Israel overstepped their bounds. The Turkish government is going to have to come up with someway to keep their citizenry from wanting war on Israel. International backlash will proceed, which will most likely lead to a UN resolution. If the US blocks such a resolution, we will suffer irreparable harm to our international relations.

Al-Jazeera article

CNN article

CNN Q&A on issues like the blockade and the flotilla

BBC article

But its alright, because Netanyahu regrets the deaths.

 

[Барбоса]

I would say that while Israel is rightly being condemned for this, the guerilla warfare being carried out against her from numerous sides has led to such increased paranoia.

No flotilla named the "Freedom Flotilla" is going to attack Israeli troops.

I find this just plain wrong. You really think that Jihadist terrorists are not capable of employing the same kind of deception that has worked so often in military history since the Trojan Horse...

The idea of a blockade is to stop anything getting in, even if it includes humanitarian aid. It might not be popular but if the Freedom Flotilla refused to listen to Israeli warnings or ignored the virtual state of war around Gaza then it was putting itself in harms way.

 

[Razor]

I find this just plain wrong. You really think that Jihadist terrorists are not capable of employing the same kind of deception that has worked so often in military history since the Trojan Horse...

They weren't Jihadists. They were a part of the Free Gaza movement. I'll quote directly from the CNN Q&A.

Who has organized the flotilla?
The Free Gaza Movement, a Cyprus-based human rights group, has brought together a number of organizations to form the Freedom Flotilla. The coalition includes the European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza. Another pro Palestinian group, Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), a Turkish organization, also sent a boat. The flotilla left Cyprus on Sunday and had been due to arrive in Gaza on Monday.

Are you telling me that the entirety of the flotilla were Jihadists, and were using this Freedom Flotilla as a way to sneak in a (essentially) suicide attack on Israeli blockade soldiers? Please.

The idea of a blockade is to stop anything getting in, even if it includes humanitarian aid. It might not be popular but if the Freedom Flotilla refused to listen to Israeli warnings or ignored the virtual state of war around Gaza then it was putting itself in harms way.

Okay. So the fact that they were bringing in 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid to Gaza excuses Israel air dropping in and killing 15 unarmed civilians, while wounding tens more? That's bullshit.

Israel had the right to board the ship and look through the aid being sent in. However, it did not have the right to open fire on unarmed civilians.

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As a update, there are rumors that Turkey has vowed to escort future Gaza aid with the Turkish navy.

If this is in fact true, then this is very important.

Turkey is a part of NATO. If Israel boards any Turkish navy vessel or fires upon them, then Israel is at war with Turkey.

Any attack on a NATO country is an act of war with all of the NATO allies. It's the same reasoning used to gather up NATO allies for the Afghanistan offensives after the 9/11 attacks.

That, of course, means that the United States would be war with Israel.

 

[Барбоса]

Are you telling me that the entirety of the flotilla were Jihadists, and were using this Freedom Flotilla as a way to sneak in a (essentially) suicide attack on Israeli blockade soldiers? Please.

I did not say that. They don't need to be all Jihadists. It only takes a few to turn the situation into a mess

Okay. So the fact that they were bringing in 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid to Gaza excuses Israel air dropping in and killing 15 unarmed civilians, while wounding tens more? That's bullshit.

Israel had the right to board the ship and look through the aid being sent in. However, it did not have the right to open fire on unarmed civilians.

Trying to enter a city under military blockade certainly opened the flotilla to being boarded by the Israelis for inspection. If those aboard did not understand that by entering what amounts to a warzone then they are stupid

Does it excuse what happened? Of course not.

However, I think it would be naive to say that there was not some provocation of the Israeli boarding party. Perhaps not to the extent that the Israelis claim with shots being fired at them but I severely doubt that everyone on the flotilla was cooperative.

As always with this kind of incident, we will get the story from both sides but in reality the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. I heavily doubt that the Israelis boarded that ship with the purpose of killing innocents in order to dissuade future aide missions. However, Israel has to treat each of these missions with the same suspicion: as a potential threat. It only takes one slip

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Gone Batshit crazy? Add in 'even more' between 'gone' and 'batshit' and it'd be somewhat more accurate.

Sigh, when are these countries going to give up on these ridiculous viewpoints and beliefs and just recognise each other as human beings? Ok, you don't agree with how one another conducts themselves, that doesn't justify blowing each other up once a month, or shooting at people who just want to help people who are suffering.

It's also important to note that this is the second attack of this magnatude to occur at sea in the last month. I'm of course referring to the submarine attack by N. Korea on the S. Korean freighter a few weeks ago.

When exactly will all this unneccessary death end, if ever?

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Gone Batshit crazy? Add in 'even more' between 'gone' and 'batshit' and it'd be somewhat more accurate.

Sigh, when are these countries going to give up on these ridiculous viewpoints and beliefs and just recognise each other as human beings? Ok, you don't agree with how one another conducts themselves, that doesn't justify blowing each other up once a month, or shooting at people who just want to help people who are suffering.

It's also important to note that this is the second attack of this magnatude to occur at sea in the last month. I'm of course referring to the submarine attack by N. Korea on the S. Korean freighter a few weeks ago.

When exactly will all this unneccessary death end, if ever?

See the problem with this view point is the fact that there is thousands of years of hatred. You can not just tell the Israelies and the Arabs to recognize each other. It has to take an entire generation. Maybe two generations. However that's not the original point of this thread. I agree that the firing on the Flotilla was unnecessary but it had to be done. They ignored warnings from the military to stand down and be inspected.


To tell you the truth I wish there was an end to all of this paranoia,violence, what have you. It's just not gonna happen in our generation. Keep in mind this is from someone who's Jewish.

 

[secret titan]

That, of course, means that the United States would be war with Israel.

This is something we DON'T want. Israel is one of our most powerful allies, and trigger happy at that. Nothing good could come of this.


Perhaps they will let this group through, but, I can see problems in the future.

 

[X]

This is nothing new. Israel has consistently been one of the worst violators of human rights on the planet, this is HARDLY the first time they've killed unarmed civilians considering they used to cluster-bomb residential neighborhoods full of children without batting an eyelash. But of course you can't actually come out and condemn Israel for those things, because than you're automatically an anti-semite for even suggesting they could do something wrong. In fact I wouldn't be shocked to see a few people come into this thread right now and start calling us Anti-semites for daring to question the all-powerful state of Israel.

I have almost no respect for that nation. Aside from their civil liberties, which is one of the best things about the country, they have one of the more despicable goverments on the planet currently in my view. I don't give a fuck if a Palestinian murdered your children with IEDs, that doesn't give you the right to do the same.

Nothing new here. Same old shoot-first, ask questions later Israel at work here. I really wish we'd stop giving them so much of our damned money.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

This is nothing new. Israel has consistently been one of the worst violators of human rights on the planet, this is HARDLY the first time they've killed unarmed civilians considering they used to cluster-bomb residential neighborhoods full of children without batting an eyelash. But of course you can't actually come out and condemn Israel for those things, because than you're automatically an anti-semite for even suggesting they could do something wrong. In fact I wouldn't be shocked to see a few people come into this thread right now and start calling us Anti-semites for daring to question the all-powerful state of Israel.

I have almost no respect for that nation. Aside from their civil liberties, which is one of the best things about the country, they have one of the more despicable goverments on the planet currently in my view. I don't give a fuck if a Palestinian murdered your children with IEDs, that doesn't give you the right to do the same.

Nothing new here. Same old shoot-first, ask questions later Israel at work here. I really wish we'd stop giving them so much of our damned money.

Perhaps if you lived in Israel every day when they did not have the truce with Hammas you'll change your mind. I was there in 2001. A lot of crazy shit happened after I left. The Kibutz where I stayed got rocketed. However, if you had a pro Al-Qaeda group trying to do that here, this would be a different story entirely.

 

[X]

Perhaps if you lived in Israel every day when they did not have the truce with Hammas you'll change your mind. I was there in 2001. A lot of crazy shit happened after I left. The Kibutz where I stayed got rocketed. However, if you had a pro Al-Qaeda group trying to do that here, this would be a different story entirely.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the personal perspective from either side, the Israelis or the Palestinians. As the old adage goes Doug, two wrongs don't make a right. Sure, it makes it easier to understand why a decision to take innocent lives like this was made. But it doesn't make those decisions right. If a man murdered your wife and then you went and murdered his, you've still committed an act that can be deemed morally wrong by just about every philosophy or religion in existence, not to mention the law. An eye for an eye makes the world blind as they say.

I'm not taking anything away from what the Palestinians or Al-Qaeda have done in that area Doug. But it doesn't make killing innocent people right. They had nothing to do with your suffering and loss.

 

[Davi323]

I can honestly say that I don't know the full story. I am not going to defend nor condemn Israel until more facts come out...but given that most of the responses have assumed Israel just acted out of craziness, what happens if it comes out that Israel actually did have cause? What if they really were being fired on, what if the floatilla actually was what Israel claims? Basically, I am reserving judgment until more is known. Israel may have royally fucked up...but they may also have had good reason to believe the floatilla was't innocent at all, and there is a lot more we simply don't know. Batshit craz? Maybe...but what if they aren't?

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Razor Why in the fuck would you quote an Al Jazeera article? They are an Anti-Israel organization who constantly promote Jihadist programs, Anti-Israal gibberish, Anti-American propoganda, you name it. Please find another source that's credible.

 

[X]

Razor Why in the fuck would you quote an Al Jazeera article? They are an Anti-Israel organization who constantly promote Jihadist programs, Anti-Israal gibberish, Anti-American propoganda, you name it. Please find another source that's credible.

It's an AP article Doug, meaning it's picked up by just about every single news organization on the planet Earth. You can read the article on literally any news web site you want to choose man, this isn't some made up propaganda by Al Jazeera.

Here's a link to the article on Yahoo News: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

 

[RockFan89]

I'll give a quick run down on the history of this conflict since Israel was created (at least based on what I have read).

Israel was created after WWII and for the next few decades they were warring with neighboring Arab states, (the Arab nations attacked them first). Israel had the upper hand in these battles and in the processes acquired more land, including Gaza.

One of the methods used to resolve this conflict was land for peace. Just a couple of years ago Israel handed back control of Gaza to the Palestinians who then elected Hamas to power (I've heard some say Hamas forcefully took it over, but I am not sure). Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist and has made it clear they want to destroy the nation. Hamas has fired thousands of rockets into Israel. In response, Israel started firing back at Gaza in 2008 (a war in which Israel was accused of war crimes, including using white phosphorus on innocent people). Israel also implemented a blockade requiring all shipments to Gaza be required to go through certain ports where they will be inspected, this is so that more weapons or more powerful weapons don't get into the hands of Hamas. It should be noted that aid can get to Gaza (and that even Israel itself has provided aid for the citizens of Gaza) as long as it travels through the appropriate channels.

On the night of the incident, there were other ships in which Israeli commandos boarded and there was no incident. There have also been ships that have more recently sent aid without incident.

For my take, Israel absolutely has the right to defend itself. It is easy for us to be critical and second guess the decisions from half way around the world. Israel has been attacked relentlessly ever since they were established, so I don't blame them for being very apprehensive to the Muslim world. Of course not everyone who criticizes Israel is anti-Semitic (just as everyone who criticizes Obama isn't a racist), but the denial of Israel's right to exist by people as prominent as Helen Thomas is extremely troublesome.

It is also incredible to me the double standard the world has. Israel kills about 20 people who were not obeying their orders to not break a well established blockade on a nation that is run by a terrorist organization and the world begins to riot, while Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban and other radical Muslim terrorist groups kill thousands of innocent people every year, not to mention their deplorable treatment of women, and those same people say nothing. In fact, many Muslim nations were dancing in the streets after 9/11, that is the type of evil that the Israeli's must be on constant guard against.

Did Israel make a mistake here by using so much force, I think so, but do I blame Israel for their distrust of the people on the boat, no.

See the video at this link for some of the hate the Arab world has for Israel:

http://blog.eyeblast.tv/2010/06/ara...gyptian-lawyer-who-wants-israeli-women-raped/

 

[Vash21]

Israel has every right to defend itself, there have been numorous inspections without incident and for everyone to call out Israel for lying about the fact that they were assaulted when they tried to board that ship is a bit hypocritical.

Organizers of that fleet have come out and said that the aid was not the goal, the goal was to create an international incident that would force Israel to lift the blockade.

Sure lift the blockade allow terrorists like Hamas to bring guns, rockets, chemical weapons whatever they like into Israel as Helen Thomas a White House reporter stated the Jews need to get the hell out of Palestine and go back home, where they were systematically hunted down and murdered 60 years ago. Yea get me a bus ticket stat!

Hamas and organizations will not rest until every Israeli is either dead or leaving what they believe is their land. They would prefer dead.

Israel sends aid into Gaza all the time, if these "peace" activists truly cared about the people of Gaza they would just dock at Israeli ports after allowing their cargos to be inspected and then just truck the stuff into Gaza. In some cases the activists have even refused to turn over their cargo for transport into Gaza.

Wanna know how the average Israeli feels, go build a house in central Afganistan, Saudi Arabia, or Iran and let your female family members leave the house in a tank top and shorts and smile at a man they don't know. See what happens.

The Israeli people are surrounded by people who hate them and want them to cease to exist. I for one don't blame them for being a bit paranoid.

Can you honestly tell me that the Israeli military just sailed up close and started to open fire with no provocation at all? If that was the case why didn't they just sink the ships to begin with.

The loss of life was regrettable, but Israel has the right to defend itself.