The big man-little man debate in the WWE

[CM Steel]

Earlier this week in wrestling news, Kevin Nash said in an interview that "wrestling died when (the late) Eddie Guerrero & Chris Benoit won world title's". Which with that statement by Nash there seems to be a division in the wrestling world among big guy wrestlers and crusierweight-like wrestlers in the WWE.

Kevin Nash is taking alot of heat right now from that statement. WWE chairman Vince McMahon has always been big on his big men (no pun intended). Going back to the 6'8" Hulk Hogan in the 1980's. And ti'l this very day, Vince McMahon vision on big men wrestlers has not changed a bit.

But you have the small guy wrestlers who put on faster and exciting matches. If it wasn't for the crusierweights of the world, where would ECW, WCW, and the WWE be right now? And I think that the WWE knows this therefore creating a crusierweight show on the WWE network (whenever the network gets here).

Bigger and smaller wrestlers make the wrestling world go around. Do you agreed?

 

[Mick]

I think its tough cause im the kinda person who would rather pay to go see people like eddie, benoit, and the smaller guys put on a great technical wrestling show, and really be looking forward to it, but at the same time you got bigger guys like now ryback, who are just huge powerhouses; i wouldnt wanna pay all that money just to go see him manhandle some guys for 2 min, but at the same time, i'd really be looking forward to it...uk what i mean? wwe would get my money for the better technical matches with smaller guys, but the huge less technical guys are still an interest and excitement during the show.

 

[lucasoule]

Honestly it depends on how big the size difference is. I cant see Daniel Bryan vs Ryback being believable, but its not so farfetched to think he could take on Dolph or Jericho. Punk vs Cena is believable, but Punk vs Mark Henry or Big Show still requires a little effort to buy into (though if anyone does a good job selling it it's Punk). I think it's more a matter of who Eddie and Benoit and those guys beat that gives it credibility. HBK and Bret were considered smaller guys in their heyday too, but they werent out there with Andre or Hogan in his prime.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

The problem with Nash's comment was his over the top characterization of it.

"Wrestling died" when they made Eddie and Chris champs?

Well, what exactly does that mean? How did wrestling DIE?

Honestly, I tire of the self-promoters and that's essentially what Nash is. He's taking a jab at two people who can't defend themselves, and putting himself on a pedestal at the same time in a very passive aggressive way.

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

At the end of the day, it's all in how you book the match and tell the story. Kevin Nash's "foot in mouth" comments which if it comes from twitter, a shoot interview, facebook, etc....I always take with a grain of salt. In my mind such stunts are a way of pulling a glorified trolling rant.

Nash's track record shows that losing to guys significantly smaller to him is a non-issue, let's reference the following:

Bret Hart
Shawn Michaels
Rey Mysterio (Arguably his beating Nash was the start of his underdog run that still continues to this day.)
Chris Jericho

The psychology in those matches was excellently shown and proof that the whole idea of a "so called little man" winning can actually work when done properly. Again, Rey Mysterio has been a main fixture in WWE for a SOLID decade now, and say what you will but I honestly believe that his feud with Nash was the catalyst to that.

Bret Hart started another entertaining title run after upending Nash at Survivor Series 1995 and this added to Bret Hart's element of being able to work with a versatile base of wrestlers of all different styles and levels of strength. Just go back to matches preceding this with guys like Razor Ramon, Bob Backlund, and Bam Bam Bigelow if you need further proof.

Shawn Michaels avenged his WrestleMania XI loss to Kevin Nash by successfully defending his World Title that he won from Bret Hart at WrestleMania XII. And the way it was done it showed that it was all about the size of the fight in the dog as opposed to the size of the dog in the fight.

Chris Jericho's heel tactics and in ring cunning were exemplified in that hair vs hair match against Nash on an edition of RAW some nine years back.

In my mind, as long as the guy in the ring is capable of conveying his story and working well with who he's up against, the size is not going to matter. Despite what Nash might rant about on social media, the archives of wrestling show that David and Goliath battles work incredibly well and Nash has been in quite his fair share of them. In fact, they can be some of wrestling's most entertaining matches.

In closing, Nash can do all the glorified trolling he wants, his actions are what speak louder than his words, even if those words are completely ridiculous, tasteless and baseless (but then again who really knows what's sincere or not with the wrestling world).

 

[Milkyway!]

I've always had an odd perspective on the world of professional wrestling. To me professional wrestling is not just "fake." Wrestling has 3 key elements that cause me to have this outlook upon it:

Wrestling has a stage
When I watch a grown man jump from a ladder onto another man and they smash through a table it says one thing to me, "Holy shit. That hurt." Wrestling is a unique sport; however, most importantly wrestling is staged. The squared circle is their stage.

Wrestling is live
Wrestling is also always provided in front of some sort of live crowd, and due to this that makes it impossible to create any one moment. Remember those countless number of times the WWE has attempted to recreate, rehash, or re-do the Montreal Screwjob? Remember the countless times that this failed? Due to being live wrestling is impossible to recreate.

Wrestling is being performed
Moving onto the third element of wrestling there are two things being performed in professional wrestling. We have the actual in-ring work, and we have talking skills. The most complete professional wrestler in the world currently in my mind is John Cena. John Cena can wrestle tremendously well, and he can also talk.

Now, you could be sitting there wondering, "Milkyway! Why the fuck should I give any fucks about your nuisance ass rambling on about 3 elements of wrestling we already fucking know about?" Don't worry. Don't worry! There's a point to all this children!

These 3 elements are also the 3 key elements of theatre! In my perspective wrestling is theatre.

Taking this perspective of wrestling into consideration it is important that there is a need for suspension of disbelief when watching wrestling. Without the suspension of disbelief professional wrestling could be one of the single most boring things to ever be created; however, with the suspension of disbelief professional wrestling is spectacular art.

Without the suspension of disbelief of course we would have never been able to watch Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, Bret Hart, Eddie Guerrero, etc. Instead I'd much rather be capable of watching some of the most entertaining stars this business has ever seen.

In closing, Fuck you Kevin Nash. Fuck you.

 

[asiatic7]

I'm a fan of "smaller" wrestlers... I hate that term. When I was growing up watching wrestling, my perception was that the bigger these guys are the better they are. This is in the 80's now and at six years old, Hulk Hogan was better than Ric Flair. The fact that Hogan was 6' 8" and 305lbs. and looked like chiseled granite led me to think this way.

When I realized that guys like Mr. Perfect, Bret Hart, HBK, Owen Hart were doing these incredible things in the ring, all of a sudden, my perception changed. I started to see these big men as stiffs who were limited.

I think Vinced pushed the idea of these super heavyweights because he liked the idea of wrestlers being larger than life in every way. How often do you see a 6'8'' 300 plus lb., jacked dude walking down the street?

Some big men are an exception to the "stiff" theory. Obviously, Undertaker, Kane, Mike Awsome and Big Show. These guys show that they can move like a cruiserweight when they want to.

But to answer the question. I like both kinds of wrestlers. When matched correctly against one another, it makes for great matches (HBK vs. Taker as an example). But I lean slightly towards the "small" guys because they are more exciting to watch, because of the athleticism involved...

 

[BigSexy The IndyKiller]

I guess I would have to be the odd man out in that I can't buy into a world of wrestling run by guys half my size. Keep in mind that I'm 6'7 325 myself, but I just can't put full stock into someone whose 5'8 195 as the HEAVYWEIGHT Champion of the World. He wouldn't even the the Heavyweight Champion in MMA. While I can appreciate the high flying and grace of some of the smaller guys, I came up watching wrestling when the bigger guys dominated. Ric Flair, while not the biggest, would be HUGE compared to the guys receiving pushes nowadays.

 

[Milkyway!]

I guess I would have to be the odd man out in that I can't buy into a world of wrestling run by guys half my size. Keep in mind that I'm 6'7 325 myself,

We can't do math, can we? Half you size is 3'3.5" and 162.5 pounds. Now if I saw the fattest midget in the world wrestling, I might believe you that it is unbelievable. A guy around 6' and 230 pounds can beat a man who is 7' and 350 pounds. Easily.

but I just can't put full stock into someone whose 5'8 195 as the HEAVYWEIGHT Champion of the World.

Muhammad Ali is arguably the greatest boxer to ever live. He was only 6'2 and weighed in at 216.5 pounds. As you'll see later on in my post, most of the wrestlers you're complaining about are actually larger than Ali ever was.

He wouldn't even the the Heavyweight Champion in MMA.

Spoiler

This isn't MMA. GASP! I know. Shocker for me too!

While I can appreciate the high flying and grace of some of the smaller guys, I came up watching wrestling when the bigger guys dominated.

So. Basically you don't like change? Wrestling has been dominated by "smaller" guys since the beginning, really. Only from the late 70's - the early 90's has it ever been any different. 15 years that say otherwise is simply ridiculous to base your knowledge off what professional wrestling should be.

Ric Flair, while not the biggest, would be HUGE compared to the guys receiving pushes nowadays.

You're an idiot. Kevin Nash is an even bigger idiot for saying it, even though he's in the business. Allow me to explain why.

Source: Wikipedia
Shawn Michaels: 6' 1" - 225 lbs
Bret Hart: 6' 1" - 234 lbs
Eddie Guerrero - 5'8" - 228 lbs
Chris Beniot - 5' 11" - 220 lbs
Rey Mysterio - 5' 6" - 165 lbs
CM Punk - 6' 2" - 218 lbs
Stone Cold Steve Austin - 6'2" - 252 lbs
John Cena - 6'1" - 251 lbs
Lou Thesz - 6'2" - 225 lbs
Brunno Sammartino - 5'11" - 215 lbs
Ric Flair - 6'1" - 243 lbs

The only person less than 5'8" 195 pounds is Rey Mysterio, and when he had the belt he was a credible champion. "The Greatest Underdog to Ever Wrestle" was a damn good gimmick. Every match he had was/is exciting. He was believable due to his high flying finesse, kicks to the knees, etc.

These are some of the worlds greatest wrestlers. Ever. That's just a small list compiled, as well. The likes of Brunno Sammartino, Lou Thesz, Stone Cold Steve Austin, CM Punk, John Cena, Ric Flair, etc are on this list. If you're going to tell me these men weren't believable within the ring then you should probably just leave this forum. You're not a true professional wrestling fan. As these men have put on the greatest moments in professional wrestling history, and their pedestals they sit on prove it.

 

[Ethelion]

Didn't Vince say that today, he cares more about the superstar's popularity, not his size? This is one of the reasons why CM Punk and Jeff Hardy were pushed. And quite frankly, I believe he's right.

After he made that ludacris statement, Kevin Nash would obviously get a lot of heat for that. And he deserves every single heat that he received. Sure, he later clarified his statement that he meant that he doesn't like Eddie and Benoit as wrestlers but he likes them as persons, but it was already too little too late. He should have said it during the time he made his first statement. Glad Jericho put him in his place that wrestling was most insignificant when Nash was world champion.

Like I've agreed with Vince, it doesn't matter if you're big, as long as you're popular.

 

[BigSexy The IndyKiller]

Milkyway, that was cute. But it's funny that the same people who are pissed that Cena would be booked to beat Lesnar don't mind Punk beating Cena or anyone else larger. And even with your own chart, Flair in his prime was only smaller that two of your examples. It's all a matter of preference. You refrain from the idiot talk, and I'll refrain from the douche bag talk, even though I could NEVER get into Rey as a top guy in the company. Who, over 250 lbs, could he believably face with a shot at winning? Even Eddie, who wasn't the biggest guy in the world, used to toss him around. Shit just isn't believable to me. It may work for you, but not for me.
I'll give another example. Sean Waltman initially got over in the WWF when he pinned Scott Hall, aka Razor Ramon, on Monday Night Raw. It was such a hit that he was named the 1-2-3 Kid. It worked so well because no one expected him to beat the larger veteran. Nowadays, it happens so often that there is no longer a surprise. But admit that wrestling powered by the "small guy" just isn't as good a product as it was before.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

Milkyway, that was cute. But it's funny that the same people who are pissed that Cena would be booked to beat Lesnar don't mind Punk beating Cena or anyone else larger. And even with your own chart, Flair in his prime was only smaller that two of your examples. It's all a matter of preference. You refrain from the idiot talk, and I'll refrain from the douche bag talk, even though I could NEVER get into Rey as a top guy in the company. Who, over 250 lbs, could he believably face with a shot at winning? Even Eddie, who wasn't the biggest guy in the world, used to toss him around. Shit just isn't believable to me. It may work for you, but not for me.

I don't understand how it's not believable. I bounced in college and our best bouncer was a guy who was 5'10" tall and weighed 165 pounds. I saw him take down a guy who was 6'6" tall and weighed at least 250. Size doesn't mean shit when you know how to fight.

As far as the topic goes you really need both to make it work. But given a choice I would take the better worker(big or small)over a guy who is just big any day of the week. Most of the greatest of all time were smaller guys.

 

[BigSexy The IndyKiller]

I guess I was just brought up watching the bigger guys. Plus it meant more whenever the smaller guy would pull it off against the odds of facing the bigger guy. Now it's no surprise because it happens all of the time. Even with the Big Show, even if he didn't hold the belt all of the time, she should rarely lose cleanly. Not even to Cena. Same goes for Kane. That would provide a better story than having the small guys constantly dominating your big guys. It also makes your bigger guys look weak...

 

[asiatic7]

Muhammad Ali is arguably the greatest boxer to ever live. He was only 6'2 and weighed in at 216.5 pounds. As you'll see later on in my post, most of the wrestlers you're complaining about are actually larger than Ali ever was.

Good point. Joe Louis was small by todays standards too. He weighed no more than 196lbs. when he fought. Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson all these guys were small by todays standards. It's not totally unbelivable that "small" guys can beat big guys. Louis beat a 6'5'' 260lb. Primo Carnera, and like I said, He was under 200 lbs. himself. Tyson knocked out bigger men than himself. Pinkelon Thomas, James Smith, Tony Tubbs. Not that any of the guys they beat were whirl beaters, but don't ever count the "small guys" potential to chop down a bigger foe. Ali, Frazier, Louis and to some degree, Tyson will kill the current crop of Heavyweights headed up by the Klitshcko Bros. Guys who are 6'5"- 6'8', 245-260lbs.

Also, this phenomenon about big guys only started about 25 years ago. Before there was a Hulk Hogan, there was Bob Backlund, Bruno, Jack Brisco, Terry Funk, Buddy Rogers. These guys were world champions for their respective companies. None of them were 6'8" 310lbs. and jacked to the gills.

A guy like Andre The Giant stood out because at the time, he was one of a kind.

Kevin Nash is entitled to his own opinion. I don't think wrestling died when Eddie and Benoit became champions. I think it showed the world that there's more to wrestling than seven feet tall monsters with three moves and Nash knows that. Guy like Eddie and Benoit make guys like Nash look limited. Nothing against big guys like I said in my previous post, because there are some exceptions...

 

[asiatic7]

I guess I was just brought up watching the bigger guys. Plus it meant more whenever the smaller guy would pull it off against the odds of facing the bigger guy. Now it's no surprise because it happens all of the time. Even with the Big Show, even if he didn't hold the belt all of the time, she should rarely lose cleanly. Not even to Cena. Same goes for Kane. That would provide a better story than having the small guys constantly dominating your big guys. It also makes your bigger guys look weak...

Yes, Good point! I hate to see Big Show have to sell an A.A. or an RKO. He's a f#%kin' GIANT!!! Can you imagine Andre The Giant being tossed around by Rick Rude or JYD or anybody else for that matter? I can settle for a guy having to out wit a Big Show or Kane or Mark Henry, even using underhanded tactics to win, but clean pinfalls? What's left for them after the big man mystiqe is gone?

 

[MWRedskins]

The problem with Nash's comment was his over the top characterization of it.

"Wrestling died" when they made Eddie and Chris champs?

Well, what exactly does that mean? How did wrestling DIE?

exactly. it wasnt that comment on how he likes bigger guys than smaller guys, no. pretty much all of us knew Nash felt that way, but he said wrestling died when they were in the ring hugging at WM and wrestling fans like myself disagree. you dont have to be a huge guy to put on a great match. CM Punk has proven that, so has Bryan and Punk has made his beating a big guy look believable.

 

[Dirk]

While I agree 100% with you, Mack, in the sense that smaller guys are more entertaining, you have to concede that the fans love their big guys, even the IWC. Just look at all the Ryback threads (that started even when we saw very little of the guy) and all the hate that Rey and other small guys get on WZ. That ol' American saying that bigger is better applies here, unfortunately.

 

[CM Steel]

While I agree 100% with you, Mack, in the sense that smaller guys are more entertaining, you have to concede that the fans love their big guys, even the IWC. Just look at all the Ryback threads (that started even when we saw very little of the guy) and all the hate that Rey and other small guys get on WZ. That ol' American saying that bigger is better applies here, unfortunately.

Manure, I'm 6'3" and a half so I'm not offended at all. Yes bigger is better. But it doesn't hurt at all to have a little of both. I love the smaller wrestlers from over the years. They put on epic matches. That's just where I'm at with it.

 

[PowerHouse]

This is why Kevin Nash doesn't have a job with either TNA or WWE right now. Both Eddie G and Benoit could wrestle circles around Kevin Nash on his best day. He never put on a good match due to his own merit or prowess in the ring. Yeah seeing big guys in the ring is fun Guys like Ryback and Lesnar who can actually wrestler. But Nash was never any good in the ring. He got by on his clout in the business. Pulling strings holding guys down who were better than him cause he waneted to be on top. He never could compare to HBK or HHH in terms of workrate. He was jealous of Eddie and Benoit. Best thingfor Nash to do is hang up the boots and let the guys who actually put on good matches have their time, no matter how big or small.

 

[Jomo_mark]

I'm a fan of both actually, big and small guys are needed in wrestling, they add to different aspects. "Smaller" guys are there as they (mostly) put on great matches, e.g. Rey Mysterio, CM Punk etc. However, seeing Punk beat the Big Show, well one may argue that with martial arts or stuff it's possible, but it's VERY hard to believe. With that said, I for one have no problem with someone like Punk beating the Big Show. Punk is much more interesting and of course draws a lot more. However, I do also understand why people would have a problem with it.

 

[The Extract]

Milkyway, that was cute. But it's funny that the same people who are pissed that Cena would be booked to beat Lesnar don't mind Punk beating Cena or anyone else larger.

Don't get me wrong here. I almost completely agree with everything you say. Except the part I just quoted. Brock is being paid a few million dollars for only a few apperances. That's why people got pissed off that Cena went over Brock. To me, it made Brock look weak(though many people don't beat "Super Cena"). Punk is still believeable(IMO) because it has happened before! MitB 2011! Summerslam 2011!

Back to topic. I like big guys wrestling, as long as they can move(i.e. Kane, Show). So(and I cannot express this enough) no Khalis!! I enjoy seeing small guys in the ring too. As long as they entertain, I like them! That's all I need.

 

[theBec2101]

Why not mix it up like they have been doing for years. I dont see the problem. I like some of the David vs Goliath matches. Nash is just hurt for somereason. I dont agree with most of the stuff he says, but he got us to listen to him, right. So who really cares its not like he thoughts are going to change anything.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and Stone Cold Steve Austin were the same size.
They were roughly the same height, and neither was noticeable bigger than the other. Eddie and Chris Benoit though were both much shorter. There's a difference between 6'0 or 6'1 and 5'9.

 

[PRMETFAN]

I like my men big...omg i can't believe i wrote that since i am totally heterosexual. I myself perfer the champs to be huge tough guys like Brock,Hogan,Goldberg,The Rock,Batista,Undertaker,etc.

I think only guys that could easily crush normal men should have belts or be the face of the "E". I absolutely hated when Cody Rhodes a guy that i know i can beat up in a bar fight was holding the intercontinental belt.

Smaller wrestlers like Punk,Bryan,etc are great and many maybe in fact be the best technical wrestlers but only the huge tough muscular monsters have the chance to becoming house hold names and get known to the non-wrestling fan to make them become interested in wrestling and spend their money on it.

 

[TheCrusher]

Going back a ways to Milky Way's comment about wrestling being theatre--it is. But what did the Greeks do with their main characters? They put them on platformed kothornoi sandals so that they stood a foot taller than the supporting cast and chorus. There really is something amazing in seeing the giants out there crushing the snot out of a guy who's "only" 6'0" and 220.

That being said, I actually agree with many of the points being made about the smaller guys creating great theatre as well. When I went to RAW last year, and saw in person how freaking high in the air Evan Bourne was it was one of the most impressive moments of the night. And from inside an arena, I was darned impressed with how fast Kofi Kingston covered the length of the ring and how high he got a dropkick without having to squat or load up. While I got to see Triple H fire Vince that night, the best theatre of the evening was probably Santino and Zack Ryder clowning it up for a Superstars match.

I have thrilled to some little guy beating big guy matches, but there has to be restraint in how much it is used. If it becomes anything other than a huge surprise, it takes the mystique out of the whole thing (for both guys.) I watched my 5'6" buddy manage to come on top of fight with a 6'5" 270 guy in a bar one night in college. I was amazed and gave my buddy plenty of respect until three months later when my 6'0" roommate took the same guy out in about five seconds. The big man lost his mystique (but never really did learn to stop running his mouth to other people's girlfriends) and my little buddy's amazing accomplishment was considerably less amazing.