The 4 Horsemen are back... well, sort of.

[It's Damn Real!]

Keep in mind here, everyone, one of the defining precursors to all of this Horsemen/Fourtune business was the very fact that Flair took on a new predecessor in Kazwhich seemingly left AJ in the dust as he began to lose in frustrating ways/matches.

While it's certainly still plausible that AJ doesn't use this as a springboard to turn face again, it's unlikely–*why else even focus on the number of members allowed in the group by noting that a fifth member would have to be excluded while running a secondary story line that preceded the formation of the stable where AJ's "in" with Flair was being lost to newcomer Kazarian?

One way or another, an AJ/Kazarian feud is most certainly being teased, and if ya ask me the writing is on the wall plain as day with how it'll pan out. Besides, who better to lead the charge against Fourtune than their former member/leader in AJ Styles –*the most over face in the company before RVD & Hardy showed up?

 

[Next Jericho]

The Four'tune is like the horsemen but only modern and better for example.

James J. Dillon = Ric Flair, Manger.

Baby Doll = Kaz (no only kidding its Chelsea) , Valet.

Ric Flair = A.J Styles, Champion.

Ole Anderson = Robert Roode, Tag team.

Arn Anderson = James Storm, Tag team.

Tully Blanchard = Desmond Wolfe, Mid Card.

The new guy is Kaz, X-Division.

Think about Evolution they did not have a manger or valet so each version can have new people or take them away.

 

[Ferbian]

I think it would be a bad choice to make an early feud between two of the faction members, A.J to me is really the one who should benefit from this faction over anyone else, Desmond Wolfe is a second to benefit from it, Randy Orton style most likely.

Kaz being benefitted over Aj Styles is fine for Kaz, but I don't really see it making much sense, due to the fact that A.J is the top dog of the company when it comes to popularity, they should really be focusing on making him one of the greats, while Kaz and Desmond Wolfe benefit from being associated with them, Batista and Randy Orton style.

I don't think AJ should turn face again anytime soon, while it's somewhat annoying seeing a young attempt to rip off Ric Flair, I still think he's been a decent heel since being associated with Ric Flair, and they need to continue doing that.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I think it would be a bad choice to make an early feud between two of the faction members, A.J to me is really the one who should benefit from this faction over anyone else, Desmond Wolfe is a second to benefit from it, Randy Orton style most likely.

Kaz being benefitted over Aj Styles is fine for Kaz, but I don't really see it making much sense, due to the fact that A.J is the top dog of the company when it comes to popularity, they should really be focusing on making him one of the greats, while Kaz and Desmond Wolfe benefit from being associated with them, Batista and Randy Orton style.

I don't think AJ should turn face again anytime soon, while it's somewhat annoying seeing a young attempt to rip off Ric Flair, I still think he's been a decent heel since being associated with Ric Flair, and they need to continue doing that.

But that's just it, Ferbian – it's not a feud between two of the faction members. It's a feud between two of the members who both thought they were members –*one of which was not one because there was only room for four. Besides, it's not as though the seeds of dissension weren't planted weeks ago to begin with.

AJ doesn't really need this rub as much as Kaz does, so if they're looking to elevate Kaz, what better way than to put him into a program with AJ Styles – and better yet – the newly re-face'd AJ Styles, the former "face of TNA himself?

I don't doubt he's finally gotten the hang of being a heel, but it is still awkward seeing him try to pull it off from time-to-time.

I'm certainly not against not turning him heel, but in some fashion the fifth member will have to be dropped – there's only room for one fifth here, and that's Ric Flair himself.

 

[Ferbian]

But that's just it, Ferbian – it's not a feud between two of the faction members. It's a feud between two of the members who both thought they were members –*one of which was not one because there was only room for four. Besides, it's not as though the seeds of dissension weren't planted weeks ago to begin with.

Very well, my mistake, I don't really watch TNA that much, only on occasions, but I still think it's a mistake to even want to make them feud each other, A.J who is definitely a main event player, and should be kept build as a main event player, as opposed to feuding with Kaz who by my assumption is nothing but a mid-carder getting a push through Ric Flair's association, a push that someone else probably could benefit more from.

AJ doesn't really need this rub as much as Kaz does, so if they're looking to elevate Kaz, what better way than to put him into a program with AJ Styles – and better yet – the newly re-face'd AJ Styles, the former "face of TNA himself?

I don't doubt he's finally gotten the hang of being a heel, but it is still awkward seeing him try to pull it off from time-to-time.

Indeed, there is some awful times he tries to be like Ric Flair, Ric Flair is in a league of his own when it comes to microphone skills and legacy, something A.J while he's good, will never reach.

I'm certainly not against not turning him heel, but in some fashion the fifth member will have to be dropped – there's only room for one fifth here, and that's Ric Flair himself.

Well didn't The Four Horsemen have 5 members at one point through what I think was JJ Dillon being their manager? something that Ric Flair could take the role of now (mind you I'm not good on the 80's factions or names, I know of The Four Horsemen, but I don't know much of its members from time to time, especially with the large changing of members it had through the years)

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Very well, my mistake, I don't really watch TNA that much, only on occasions, but I still think it's a mistake to even want to make them feud each other, A.J who is definitely a main event player, and should be kept build as a main event player, as opposed to feuding with Kaz who by my assumption is nothing but a mid-carder getting a push through Ric Flair's association, a push that someone else probably could benefit more from.

But at the same time, who could benefit from the Flair rub more –*AJ or Kaz? AJ, as we already agree, was already over as it is, and the only reason he "needed" Flair was to really get over as a heel, not to get over in general – Kaz can't lay claim to the same fortunes () at all. He's been a rather bland and boring X Division performer for a while now who's had a number of incredibly unmemorable feuds over the last two years.

Kaz doesn't have the personality or the credentials (yet), but he does have the body and the talent to achieve both IMO – given the right set of circumstances and the right push. This could very well be it.

Indeed, there is some awful times he tries to be like Ric Flair, Ric Flair is in a league of his own when it comes to microphone skills and legacy, something A.J while he's good, will never reach.

Sure, I agree there, but very few in this day and age are as good as the Flair types. That era of personalities in pro-wrestling is about as unrivaled as it gets.

Well didn't The Four Horsemen have 5 members at one point through what I think was JJ Dillon being their manager? something that Ric Flair could take the role of now (mind you I'm not good on the 80's factions or names, I know of The Four Horsemen, but I don't know much of its members from time to time, especially with the large changing of members it had through the years)

Not that I know of outside of JJ Dillon being the manager, but I could certainly be wrong here. Either way, that's why I was saying there could only really be one "fifth" with Ric Flair – if AJ and Kaz both made the cut, Wolfe is the odd-man out because BMI count as two by default being a tag-team, and Wolfe is the best heel in the group, so why bail on him over Kaz or AJ?

 

[hewittor]

Oh my God, that Lethal and Flair exchange was great...not on that, but it was hilarious. My wife is not really into TNA, but when she heard that I had to rewind the DVR. Great opening segment TNA. I also hope AJ is kicked out...I want my Phenomenal face back a face.

 

[TheBWO]

First let me say---in my opinion.....the promo that Lethal cut last night was ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS!! Even my stepdaughter was laughing at it, and she doesn't get wrestling, Flair, TNA, or anyone else. Not that I want to see a knockoff of Charlie Haas in TNA, but you have to admit....mannerisms, cliche's.....Lethal had them down. I'm sure once Flair's blood pressure returned to normal backstage he had to give him props.

Now...if Flair wanted to give the faction credibility, and is even comparing them to the Horsemen, then they should show up--for one, well dressed. The Horseman always did. You look respectful, you look top of the line, --people willl see you as top of the line. It's what the MEM tried doing, and really unsure how successful that was (i.e. PPV buy rate, ratings, etc) but it at least was a step in the right direction until it became muddled with Booker leaving, and then Steiner, etc. Nonetheless, --well--we have Abyss making a heel move, it would be time to swap one for a face. Only...really, TNA doesn't have that many heels and way to many faces IMO. I think Flair should pull a swerve and keep the stable in tact,..at least for a while, until TNA can either get Dreamer on board with whatever direction that's going, and whatever side he'll be on---and 3-D walking the fence each and every week.
Secondly, the original Horsemen did things in groups....all the time...(at least at the Superstation studios)...every beatdown was always 4-1, or 4-2. Tiring? yes...but that's also what made them so hated. You get tired seeing gang fighting each and every week until the big card in the Omni, ...and win or lose....it was a better show because it was booked right. Make Fourtune/Fortune do gang beatdowns until the week of the PPV, with some interference until the week of the PPV, and maybe have them take a beating to even it out.

 

[Ferbian]

But at the same time, who could benefit from the Flair rub more –*AJ or Kaz? AJ, as we already agree, was already over as it is, and the only reason he "needed" Flair was to really get over as a heel, not to get over in general – Kaz can't lay claim to the same fortunes () at all. He's been a rather bland and boring X Division performer for a while now who's had a number of incredibly unmemorable feuds over the last two years.

Yes but if Kaz is really such a boring X-division performer, who the hell are we to be pushing him then as opposed to pushing someone like I mentioned, Desmond Wolfe, who could be a decent main event player.

A.J doesn't need Flair that's true, but I'd much rather see him benefit for the Flair rub than Kaz, and to have Kaz doing nothing but the actual X-Division thing, but that's just me, because I believe that Kaz has spend way too much time doing things with TNA and not getting anywhere, why should we bother with him now?

It's like saying "Let's push John Morrison" because he's also a flippy kind of person in the ring, which many X-Division wrestlers can brag about being, he's also bland on the microphone and almost awful, and he's been stuck in the mid-card for his whole damn career, why should we bother with him now?

Kaz doesn't have the personality or the credentials (yet), but he does have the body and the talent to achieve both IMO – given the right set of circumstances and the right push. This could very well be it.

Yes body and talent, well I know this is TNA, but it's not everything, while some may not like it, professional wrestling has always leaned to a personality and charisma, look at ALL of the big guys in this business, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, John Cena, Sting.

I know those names aren't even half the names of big people in the business, but they're great examples of people who just as well as having great talent in the ring, some of them are put over due to having a great personality, Hulk Hogan and John Cena aren't A.J in the ring, they're not Flair, they're not even Triple H in the ring, but they were insanely over because of their personalities.

Sure, I agree there, but very few in this day and age are as good as the Flair types. That era of personalities in pro-wrestling is about as unrivaled as it gets.

That is very true, there's only 3 wrestlers in this business I of personal preferences could put close to Ric Flair in-ring and microphone wise, and that's Shawn Michaels, Roddy Piper and Chris Jericho, and none of them has the credentials that Flair had for example, Roddy is the only one who had microphone skills that could level Flair, but the two others come fairly close.

Not that I know of outside of JJ Dillon being the manager, but I could certainly be wrong here. Either way, that's why I was saying there could only really be one "fifth" with Ric Flair – if AJ and Kaz both made the cut, Wolfe is the odd-man out because BMI count as two by default being a tag-team, and Wolfe is the best heel in the group, so why bail on him over Kaz or AJ?

Oh yes my bad, I'm counting badly today seeing as I counted there to already be 5 members, not 6.

Either way, while this whole thread revolves around "The Four Horsemen" then I don't really see why with the fact that it's not called anything with "The Four" that it can't be a 6 man faction.

And even with that, I still see A.J being the one who should stay in this faction, A.J could use this faction to get the rub in the business ala Triple H, at least in dominance by being the leader of the dominating faction, something Kaz couldn't even dream of harvesting when it comes to getting a positive benefit out of this faction.

 

[Judah's Lion]

i'm a huge fan of stables as a rule. two of my favorites of all time are the 4 Horsemen and Evolution. i find it as no coincidence that both involved Flair.

now this new stable, Fourtunate, could be really awesome. Flair as the mentor and leader and manager and mouthpiece and cheater-that-helps-win-matches is gold. he can even wrestle from time to time as he is doing with Lethal. that is solid to me and a very obvious choice for this new stable.

Beer Money is fantastic. they actually remind me of the original Brain Busters with Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson. in fact, i think it's interesting that Roode started off in Team Canada as "the Canadian Enforcer" much like Double A was "the enforcer" in his day. and a good tag team to hold and chase the belts is great. this could also do wonders for the Tag Division in general as having the Guns chase the belts and finally overcome the very heel stable (not just the team, mind you, but the entire stable that desperately tries to hold onto the belts) could be a great push for them and give lots of exposure to the entire division. so Beer Money is a lock.

as far as the other three, Styles & Wolfe & Kaz, i'm very conflicted. i can't think of any one of these three guys that would make a perfect fit for the original Flair of Horsemen or Triple H of Evolution character.

Styles is great as a face and i'm starting to really appreciate his heel run also. but IMO, he doesn't need the stable or Flair as much anymore. still needs some work on the mic, but he can pick that up from watching old tapes or hanging with Flair in the back when the cameras aren't rolling. Styles might just be better off feuding in the Main Event and taking on guys like RVD, Hardy, Sting, Angle, Anderson, etc.

Wolfe, to me, has the perfect persona, look, moveset and mic skills to play a "lone wolf" gimmick, no pun intended. so maybe have him leave the stable, though i'm not sure how i'd write that into a storyline. but still, have him leave and throw him in the mix with all the guys listed above in the AJ paragraph. he's a very credible main event player, given that he's not jobbing week in and week out.

Kaz is awesome. i love his intensity in the ring. and for whatever reason, he's just not getting over. so arguably, he should stay in the stable and take all the benefit he can from Flair and Beer Money. but i just don't see it.

so maybe write it this way and keep it simple: Flair ditches the aforementioned three (Styles & Wolfe & Kaz) and says that he's gonna build a stable of winners and champions and that these three have been losing too much. they're all losing to Angle and Lethal lately, so it's not too hard to write that and make it believable.

so then, have Beer Money, the only guys that have won a match in weeks, stick around and give them the tag belts to stay in the stable. that gives us two of the four required guys to fit in the Fourtunate (discounting Flair as he'll be the fifth).

here's where i'd say that the best fits are Morgan (kind of the Batista role) and Pope. Pope could easily fill that original Flair role as he's got the look, moves and mic work to get it done. plus it'd be pretty fitting as he's all about the money and the women. Morgan would also fit in pretty well as i could, without much effort, see him in a suit and tie and all about the money and the matches and not about the fans. his mic work referring to himself in the plural form reminded me (in the idea, not necessarily in the execution) of the Rock referring to himself in the third person. so they both seem like the more natural and better fits for the new stable with Flair. that'd be my vote.

plus, again, it gives Styles and Wolfe their deserved places back in the main event scene as singles guys, whether heel or face. Kaz, better luck next time...?

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Yes but if Kaz is really such a boring X-division performer, who the hell are we to be pushing him then as opposed to pushing someone like I mentioned, Desmond Wolfe, who could be a decent main event player.

A.J doesn't need Flair that's true, but I'd much rather see him benefit for the Flair rub than Kaz, and to have Kaz doing nothing but the actual X-Division thing, but that's just me, because I believe that Kaz has spend way too much time doing things with TNA and not getting anywhere, why should we bother with him now?

It's like saying "Let's push John Morrison" because he's also a flippy kind of person in the ring, which many X-Division wrestlers can brag about being, he's also bland on the microphone and almost awful, and he's been stuck in the mid-card for his whole damn career, why should we bother with him now?[/QUOTE]

Well that's just it – we're not pushing him instead of Wolfe, we're pushing in in addition to Wolfe. Like I already noted before, no one could benefit from the Flair rub more, IMO, and TNA is lacking top-tier heels so any effort to develop new ones, even ones seemingly as boring (right now) as Kaz is a step in the right direction IMO.

Kaz I do believe has a lot of untapped potential. He has the body, the size, the look and the ability to be a better performer, but for one reason or another he's never reached that plateau. With Flair, he can achieve it, IMO.

Yes body and talent, well I know this is TNA, but it's not everything, while some may not like it, professional wrestling has always leaned to a personality and charisma, look at ALL of the big guys in this business, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, John Cena, Sting.

I know those names aren't even half the names of big people in the business, but they're great examples of people who just as well as having great talent in the ring, some of them are put over due to having a great personality, Hulk Hogan and John Cena aren't A.J in the ring, they're not Flair, they're not even Triple H in the ring, but they were insanely over because of their personalities.

Sure, but in Kaz' case he's got a good/average to slightly above-average level on each of those planes where guys like Rhodes were obviously limited in body, Cena in the ring, etc. While I don't think he's that outstanding individual, I do think he's capable of elevating his value if he's booked properly in this stable and so long as he continues to learn from Flair.

That is very true, there's only 3 wrestlers in this business I of personal preferences could put close to Ric Flair in-ring and microphone wise, and that's Shawn Michaels, Roddy Piper and Chris Jericho, and none of them has the credentials that Flair had for example, Roddy is the only one who had microphone skills that could level Flair, but the two others come fairly close.

I'd say Jericho comes pretty damn close. Jericho is a phenomenal talent – a total throwback to the personalities of old, if you ask me.

Oh yes my bad, I'm counting badly today seeing as I counted there to already be 5 members, not 6.

Either way, while this whole thread revolves around "The Four Horsemen" then I don't really see why with the fact that it's not called anything with "The Four" that it can't be a 6 man faction.

And even with that, I still see A.J being the one who should stay in this faction, A.J could use this faction to get the rub in the business ala Triple H, at least in dominance by being the leader of the dominating faction, something Kaz couldn't even dream of harvesting when it comes to getting a positive benefit out of this faction.

Absolutely, but at the same time AJ could also benefit greatly from being the primary rival force that Fourtune has to deal with.

While I'd personally want to see AJ go face as a result, I certainly won't write this off were he not to.

 

[Ferbian]

Well that's just it – we're not pushing him instead of Wolfe, we're pushing in in addition to Wolfe. Like I already noted before, no one could benefit from the Flair rub more, IMO, and TNA is lacking top-tier heels so any effort to develop new ones, even ones seemingly as boring (right now) as Kaz is a step in the right direction IMO.

True it might be a step in the right direction, and yes it's in addition to Wolfe as opposed to "instead of" but as you're saying yourself, we need to trash one, and if that is to be anyone, I would much rather see Kaz going into the trash can of this faction than anybody else, seeing as we can't trash Beer Money cause a true faction of this size, needs a tag team, it's the true definition of a faction: top guy, mid-card guy, tag team, perhaps manager.

Ric Flair served as both manager and tag team wrestler in Evolution although, so that saves my theory that Evolution was great

Kaz I do believe has a lot of untapped potential. He has the body, the size, the look and the ability to be a better performer, but for one reason or another he's never reached that plateau. With Flair, he can achieve it, IMO.

Yes he can achieve it, anybody associated with a guy of Ric Flair's status can achieve a lot, Evolution and Sting are testaments to this very statement.

But that doesn't mean he should go over any of the other choices in this faction who I would much rather see getting the rub than Kaz, it's not that I don't believe in Kaz, but the fact that I believe as you noted yourself, he's bland, without much of a personality, or charisma, something he'll need if he's to make it on the top, Flair won't be active forever after all.

Sure, but in Kaz' case he's got a good/average to slightly above-average level on each of those planes where guys like Rhodes were obviously limited in body, Cena in the ring, etc. While I don't think he's that outstanding individual, I do think he's capable of elevating his value if he's booked properly in this stable and so long as he continues to learn from Flair.

Yes but there's also other cases of the "total package" or what would be considered a close to be total package, who hasn't made it, they won one world championship, or very few and was / is still to this day considered nothing more than upper mid-carders, guys like Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit (he lacked Charisma, but he had some)

I'd say Jericho comes pretty damn close. Jericho is a phenomenal talent – a total throwback to the personalities of old, if you ask me.

Exactly my point, Chris Jericho is one of the overall greatest wrestlers of today, and Kaz does not have what it takes to be Chris Jericho of tomorrow, even with Ric Flair's rub he wouldn't achieve that, and as I mentioned above, Chris Jericho to me is still considered an upper mid-carder, he's considered a glorified jobber as well. What does that say for Kaz's future?

Absolutely, but at the same time AJ could also benefit greatly from being the primary rival force that Fourtune has to deal with.

It depends really, on quite a few things:

- Is Fortune gonna become a power faction, Evolution squashed guys like Scott Hall, Goldberg, Shawn Michaels (Shawn was already good in WWE, he didn't need to benefit from feuding with Evolution) and some other minor feuds, and while they dominated Triple H, they ultimately didn't achieve the same popularity through feuding with them as opposed to what popularity they had in WCW.

- If Fortuen doesn't get booked to become a power faction, A.J Styles might as well forget about feuding with them, because they won't have the standings that A.J would need to get pushed to even higher greatness through them, like Randy Orton was, because Evolution were dying out with him being kicked out, and Randy benefited from feuding with Triple H, but not the whole faction.

Who would A.J need to feud with to benefit from Fortune, if he can't feud with the whole faction because they're too much of a power faction, or too little of it, A.J is the definite born leader for this faction, so why the hell kick him out to have a mid-carder, or a sloppy 60 year old guy who couldn't possibly be bought to a believable leader.

I've said it before, A.J would benefit mostly from this, due to the past history of the leader being pushed to insane heights of the main event scene, something Fortune would have to build Kaz, or Desmond to even being a lower main event player.

While I'd personally want to see AJ go face as a result, I certainly won't write this off were he not to.

A.J was a great face, he's a pretty decent heel as well, so he could very well play the whole thing, that's another reason why I like Styles really, he reminds me of a mixture of Shawn and Chris Jericho, I don't know why he does, but the fact that all 3 of these names plays great heels, and great faces, certainly don't kill A.J being associated with the two others.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

True it might be a step in the right direction, and yes it's in addition to Wolfe as opposed to "instead of" but as you're saying yourself, we need to trash one, and if that is to be anyone, I would much rather see Kaz going into the trash can of this faction than anybody else, seeing as we can't trash Beer Money cause a true faction of this size, needs a tag team, it's the true definition of a faction: top guy, mid-card guy, tag team, perhaps manager.

Ric Flair served as both manager and tag team wrestler in Evolution although, so that saves my theory that Evolution was great

I can appreciate that. It is afterall just a matter of personal taste, but personally I think AJ works better as a face, which is why I'd rather he end up being the odd-man out in place of Kaz who could also as I noted benefit more from the rub.

Either way, one of Kaz or AJ has to be the odd-man out since Wolfe is probably the most important piece of the faction, and as we both agree there's no way BMI can't be included as every great stable needs a dominant tag-team.

Yes he can achieve it, anybody associated with a guy of Ric Flair's status can achieve a lot, Evolution and Sting are testaments to this very statement.

But that doesn't mean he should go over any of the other choices in this faction who I would much rather see getting the rub than Kaz, it's not that I don't believe in Kaz, but the fact that I believe as you noted yourself, he's bland, without much of a personality, or charisma, something he'll need if he's to make it on the top, Flair won't be active forever after all.

Anyone associated with Flair can be heightened, but not just anyone can be heightened well. Giving Shark Boy a rub from Flair wouldn't make him any less a glorified jobber with a bad gimmick, for example, so I do think the personality and character potential of the guy getting the rub (LOL) does matter a lot more than you're giving them credit for.

While personality can't really be taught, it can be masked by heelish tendencies, and who better than the "Dirtiest Player in the Game" to teach Kaz how to cheat his way to glory?

Yes but there's also other cases of the "total package" or what would be considered a close to be total package, who hasn't made it, they won one world championship, or very few and was / is still to this day considered nothing more than upper mid-carders, guys like Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit (he lacked Charisma, but he had some)

To be fair, Guerrero's legs were cut out from under him at a point when he was well on his way to becoming a multi-time main-event/heavyweight champion.

Benoit I'd give you since he seems like the type who always benefited most from chasing the brass and not necessarily winning it.

But Jericho I can't agree with you with at all – I think Jericho is a certifiable top-tier talent and a grade-A main-event star. The high-mid-carder Jericho died a few years back. Jericho v. Michaels at Wrestlemania was high-mid-card Jericho. Jericho v. CM Punk, Shawn Michaels etc. circa 2008 and on is main-event Jericho.

Exactly my point, Chris Jericho is one of the overall greatest wrestlers of today, and Kaz does not have what it takes to be Chris Jericho of tomorrow, even with Ric Flair's rub he wouldn't achieve that, and as I mentioned above, Chris Jericho to me is still considered an upper mid-carder, he's considered a glorified jobber as well. What does that say for Kaz's future?

Granted, but I'm not arguing that Kaz could be the Jericho of tomorrow, but rather that Kaz could be like the Jericho of tomorrow minus oodles of charisma and mic skill. Kaz, IMO will be the mid-carder in Fourtune, while Wolfe is the main-eventer in the making.

It depends really, on quite a few things:

- Is Fortune gonna become a power faction, Evolution squashed guys like Scott Hall, Goldberg, Shawn Michaels (Shawn was already good in WWE, he didn't need to benefit from feuding with Evolution) and some other minor feuds, and while they dominated Triple H, they ultimately didn't achieve the same popularity through feuding with them as opposed to what popularity they had in WCW.

- If Fortuen doesn't get booked to become a power faction, A.J Styles might as well forget about feuding with them, because they won't have the standings that A.J would need to get pushed to even higher greatness through them, like Randy Orton was, because Evolution were dying out with him being kicked out, and Randy benefited from feuding with Triple H, but not the whole faction.

Who would A.J need to feud with to benefit from Fortune, if he can't feud with the whole faction because they're too much of a power faction, or too little of it, A.J is the definite born leader for this faction, so why the hell kick him out to have a mid-carder, or a sloppy 60 year old guy who couldn't possibly be bought to a believable leader.

I've said it before, A.J would benefit mostly from this, due to the past history of the leader being pushed to insane heights of the main event scene, something Fortune would have to build Kaz, or Desmond to even being a lower main event player.

I'd imagine they most certainly have to be a power faction in the same vein as the former Horsemen were, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to dominate as a means to be such. The Horsemen themselves lost quite often and still remained highly relevant because of the way they were booked at the time – if the same can be achieved with Fourtune, I don't see any reason why they can't actually be considered a power faction while still maintaining the requirements of prototypical heels in continuing to get faces over in the process.

A.J was a great face, he's a pretty decent heel as well, so he could very well play the whole thing, that's another reason why I like Styles really, he reminds me of a mixture of Shawn and Chris Jericho, I don't know why he does, but the fact that all 3 of these names plays great heels, and great faces, certainly don't kill A.J being associated with the two others.

Agreed.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think that it's got potential, but I'm not really feeling it right now. This is due in large part to the "official" formation of the group last night and how it came across.

Flair says he wants to reform the Four Horsemen, ok I get that. It's logical after all and fits in with TNA's pattern of attempting to use past factions/gimmicks to get themselves over. The main problem I have is that Flair talked down to Styles, Kaz, Beer Money and Wolfe like they were a bunch of green kids. How am I supposed to take them as the next incarnation of the Four Horsemen when Flair talks down to them and goes onto tell them how Windham, Ole & Arn and Tully would wipe the floor with them? And calling Wolfe the "Lex Luger" of the group when he's the overall best worker in the stable? TNA may be using him for shit, but it's obvious to anyone with eyes and ears that Wolfe is one of the best on the roster. In terms of Wolfe, Beer Money and Styles, Flair took four of the best in TNA and all but called them garbage and it just didn't make me feel that this faction is a serious force.

As for the name, I honestly can't say I'm that wild about it and I don't think most people are either. Fortune or Fourtune or however the frig it's spelled. When Flair announced it last night, I could almost swear I heard a cricket chirp somewhere out in the crowd.

However, I'm very much open to the possibility that it'll grow on me. While I'm not all that wild about Kaz, the other four guys are probably four of the five reasons that I still watch TNA so I'm holding out hope that it can recover from, what I think, is a bad start.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I think that it's got potential, but I'm not really feeling it right now. This is due in large part to the "official" formation of the group last night and how it came across.

Flair says he wants to reform the Four Horsemen, ok I get that. It's logical after all and fits in with TNA's pattern of attempting to use past factions/gimmicks to get themselves over. The main problem I have is that Flair talked down to Styles, Kaz, Beer Money and Wolfe like they were a bunch of green kids. How am I supposed to take them as the next incarnation of the Four Horsemen when Flair talks down to them and goes onto tell them how Windham, Ole & Arn and Tully would wipe the floor with them? And calling Wolfe the "Lex Luger" of the group when he's the overall best worker in the stable? TNA may be using him for shit, but it's obvious to anyone with eyes and ears that Wolfe is one of the best on the roster. In terms of Wolfe, Beer Money and Styles, Flair took four of the best in TNA and all but called them garbage and it just didn't make me feel that this faction is a serious force.

As for the name, I honestly can't say I'm that wild about it and I don't think most people are either. Fortune or Fourtune or however the frig it's spelled. When Flair announced it last night, I could almost swear I heard a cricket chirp somewhere out in the crowd.

However, I'm very much open to the possibility that it'll grow on me. While I'm not all that wild about Kaz, the other four guys are probably four of the five reasons that I still watch TNA so I'm holding out hope that it can recover from, what I think, is a bad start.

In short, because the group as individuals have been losing lately, and Flair doesn't want to mentor a group of losers, so by dressing them down in public, he allows himself to constructively criticize them to get them in line.

It's basically a drill instructor's approach to reestablishing their dominance.

 

[Ferbian]

I can appreciate that. It is afterall just a matter of personal taste, but personally I think AJ works better as a face, which is why I'd rather he end up being the odd-man out in place of Kaz who could also as I noted benefit more from the rub.

Yes A.J works better as a face, I'll give you that but he still functions rather well as a heel, I think it'd be a shame to turn him face this quickly, seeing as he hasn't been a heel for even a year.

And Kaz could just as well function as a face, because isn't that what he's been for the most of his career? especially during his time as Suicide?

But yes if I was to choose one of these to become a face, I would choose A.J

Either way, one of Kaz or AJ has to be the odd-man out since Wolfe is probably the most important piece of the faction, and as we both agree there's no way BMI can't be included as every great stable needs a dominant tag-team.

Exactly, Desmond is the star they're gonna create from this one most likely, because A.J is already over, and as I compared to earlier, Desmond is Fortune's answer to Evolution's Randy Orton.

But that also means that Desmond will need someone big in the faction to feud with, without A.J Desmond is the only logical choice to be the leader of the faction, which won't work very well if they want to create a huge stable, a huge stable needs a main event player.

Anyone associated with Flair can be heightened, but not just anyone can be heightened well. Giving Shark Boy a rub from Flair wouldn't make him any less a glorified jobber with a bad gimmick, for example, so I do think the personality and character potential of the guy getting the rub (LOL) does matter a lot more than you're giving them credit for.

That is very true, and it's funny you should say that, because I feel that Kaz is the one who'd be thrown in the "can't be heightened well" group, because of the fact that he hasn't achieved anything in the main event scene yet that would make me consider him able to be heightened in a great way.

I don't know about the character personality and potential behind Kaz really, but he just doesn't strike me as much of the charismatic guy.

I believe I've once seen him do a promo with two other guys, I believe one of them was Amazing Red as well, over the X-Division championship, or something, I can't really remember, but it ended in an epic triple threat match, but nonetheless Kaz didn't strike me as much more than a great in-ring worker.

Again, John Morrison is a decent in-ring worker, but what has he got going for him that could throw him into the main event scene? nothing.

While personality can't really be taught, it can be masked by heelish tendencies, and who better than the "Dirtiest Player in the Game" to teach Kaz how to cheat his way to glory?

That is so true, but Kaz can't possibly be an eternal heel, so eventually the mask will be torn off, Rey Mysterio - Chris Jericho style, and will reveal that he really is just another bland guy who made it to the main event scene through a manager, a manager who will most likely not be around to save him when he turns face.

To be fair, Guerrero's legs were cut out from under him at a point when he was well on his way to becoming a multi-time main-event/heavyweight champion.

That is very true, the same goes for Benoit, but nonetheless they did not make it, I'm not counting on it happening, but Kaz could just as well fall dead today, tomorrow, in a week etc. on his rise to stardom.

Benoit I'd give you since he seems like the type who always benefited most from chasing the brass and not necessarily winning it.

Even if he was on his way to becoming ECW champion when the belt actually ment something, I could very well believe that him becoming champion could've kept the belt from becoming irrelevant quickly due to the loss of real champion's on ECW with Benoit's disappearance, but that's another thread for another moment.

But Jericho I can't agree with you with at all – I think Jericho is a certifiable top-tier talent and a grade-A main-event star. The high-mid-carder Jericho died a few years back. Jericho v. Michaels at Wrestlemania was high-mid-card Jericho. Jericho v. CM Punk, Shawn Michaels etc. circa 2008 and on is main-event Jericho.

It's all a matter of opinions, seeing as Chris Jericho's versatility and the fact that he doesn't spend all time feuding with main eventers, makes him more of a upper mid-carders ready to step into the main event to act as a transactional champion, a statement which I have debated quite a few times on here, and would stick by.

Chris Jericho got more main event feuds out of his return, but he ultimately remains to feud with mid-carders, holding mid-card championships, something none of the main eventers could brag about, have you seen John, Edge, Randy, Triple H holding the Intercontinental, or United States championship any time since they won a world title (Triple H got his belt in an unification match mind you, and tag team belts doesn't really count, that much.)

Granted, but I'm not arguing that Kaz could be the Jericho of tomorrow, but rather that Kaz could be like the Jericho of tomorrow minus oodles of charisma and mic skill. Kaz, IMO will be the mid-carder in Fourtune, while Wolfe is the main-eventer in the making.

True, Kaz has the in-ring ability to be Chris Jericho of tomorrow, but no matter how much TNA doesn't revolve around charisma, it does help, look at all the top guys, most of them have charisma, and a lot of it, Kurt Angle is one of the corner stone guys, and he's one of the greatest all-around of all time from my point of view.

I'd imagine they most certainly have to be a power faction in the same vein as the former Horsemen were, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to dominate as a means to be such. The Horsemen themselves lost quite often and still remained highly relevant because of the way they were booked at the time – if the same can be achieved with Fourtune, I don't see any reason why they can't actually be considered a power faction while still maintaining the requirements of prototypical heels in continuing to get faces over in the process.

Yes and Evolution lost their share of matches as well, but dominance is the true background to creating a proper power faction, something that we can't allow A.J styles to feud with if he's to get pushed into greatness by feuding with them, because one of them have to bend, one of them has to "fail" and it would be Fortune over Styles.

So therefore, why part ways between the two of them? keep them together.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Yes A.J works better as a face, I'll give you that but he still functions rather well as a heel, I think it'd be a shame to turn him face this quickly, seeing as he hasn't been a heel for even a year.

And Kaz could just as well function as a face, because isn't that what he's been for the most of his career? especially during his time as Suicide?

But yes if I was to choose one of these to become a face, I would choose A.J

Yes, Kaz has funtioned primarily as a face, but it's been a failure at every turn because Kaz lacks the charisma that a traditional face usually owns to allow for the fans to care about what he has to say or do at any given moment. That's exactly why I think he'd benefit from the heel turn more than AJ would benefit from being the leader of Fourtune.

Exactly, Desmond is the star they're gonna create from this one most likely, because A.J is already over, and as I compared to earlier, Desmond is Fortune's answer to Evolution's Randy Orton.

But that also means that Desmond will need someone big in the faction to feud with, without A.J Desmond is the only logical choice to be the leader of the faction, which won't work very well if they want to create a huge stable, a huge stable needs a main event player.

So if Desmond is the star they'll create, why bother retaining AJ who's already a certified star? I know HHH was already that star in Evolution, but who says this incarnation of the Horsemen needs to follow the footsteps of Evolution, anyway?

Why not utilize Wolfe as the main-eventer, Kaz as the upper-mid-carder and BMI as the tag team instead of Wolfe & AJ as the main-eventers, or AJ as the main-eventer and Wolfe as the upper-mid-carder?

That is very true, and it's funny you should say that, because I feel that Kaz is the one who'd be thrown in the "can't be heightened well" group, because of the fact that he hasn't achieved anything in the main event scene yet that would make me consider him able to be heightened in a great way.

I don't know about the character personality and potential behind Kaz really, but he just doesn't strike me as much of the charismatic guy.

I believe I've once seen him do a promo with two other guys, I believe one of them was Amazing Red as well, over the X-Division championship, or something, I can't really remember, but it ended in an epic triple threat match, but nonetheless Kaz didn't strike me as much more than a great in-ring worker.

Again, John Morrison is a decent in-ring worker, but what has he got going for him that could throw him into the main event scene? nothing.

Granted, but Morrison isn't being discussed as a potential stable member. Stables can help mask a lot of personal issues with a wrestler and help to cover them up while he learns to react to them better – all the while keeping the focus on the stable instead of directly on the wrestler.

That is so true, but Kaz can't possibly be an eternal heel, so eventually the mask will be torn off, Rey Mysterio - Chris Jericho style, and will reveal that he really is just another bland guy who made it to the main event scene through a manager, a manager who will most likely not be around to save him when he turns face.

Granted, but he isn't mean to be. Really no one in the industry is forever a face or heel for that matter. The point is that when the "mask is torn off", Kaz will have evolved into a much more relevant character due to the benefits he received from Flair's tutorage.

It's all a matter of opinions, seeing as Chris Jericho's versatility and the fact that he doesn't spend all time feuding with main eventers, makes him more of a upper mid-carders ready to step into the main event to act as a transactional champion, a statement which I have debated quite a few times on here, and would stick by.

Chris Jericho got more main event feuds out of his return, but he ultimately remains to feud with mid-carders, holding mid-card championships, something none of the main eventers could brag about, have you seen John, Edge, Randy, Triple H holding the Intercontinental, or United States championship any time since they won a world title (Triple H got his belt in an unification match mind you, and tag team belts doesn't really count, that much.)

Jericho is to WWE as AJ is to TNA in that both are capable of removing themselves from the main event on any given night to feud with "lesser thans", and even lose to them as a means to elevate new talent, and not actually devalue themselves in the process. Jericho and AJ are over because they're over, and that won't change regardless of whether they're heel or face, or more importantly whether they're main event or mid-card.

True, Kaz has the in-ring ability to be Chris Jericho of tomorrow, but no matter how much TNA doesn't revolve around charisma, it does help, look at all the top guys, most of them have charisma, and a lot of it, Kurt Angle is one of the corner stone guys, and he's one of the greatest all-around of all time from my point of view.

Agreed.

Yes and Evolution lost their share of matches as well, but dominance is the true background to creating a proper power faction, something that we can't allow A.J styles to feud with if he's to get pushed into greatness by feuding with them, because one of them have to bend, one of them has to "fail" and it would be Fortune over Styles.

So therefore, why part ways between the two of them? keep them together.

Well you also have to look at it from the face point of view as well – as of this moment, Abyss' heel turn takes him away from the faces who'd feud with Fourtune, so they've already lost a number there.

As of this moment, it's Hardy & Anderson (tag) and Jay Lethal v. Kaz, AJ, Wolfe, BMI and Flair.

The faces do need an addition, and IMO there isn't a better choice in the company than an eventual AJ face-turn as ex-members always make the best options for new rivals to a stable.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

In short, because the group as individuals have been losing lately, and Flair doesn't want to mentor a group of losers, so by dressing them down in public, he allows himself to constructively criticize them to get them in line.

It's basically a drill instructor's approach to reestablishing their dominance.

I'm aware of what Flair is doing and how the angle is going, but that doesn't mean that I like it. Styles and Beer Money in particular have long since proven themselves and dressing them down like green punks doesn't make me view them as a serious force. After all, anyone that's watched TNA the past few years knows how good they are, so the old timer lecturing the kids on tough love and all that just doesn't do it for me.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I'm aware of what Flair is doing and how the angle is going, but that doesn't mean that I like it. Styles and Beer Money in particular have long since proven themselves and dressing them down like green punks doesn't make me view them as a serious force. After all, anyone that's watched TNA the past few years knows how good they are, so the old timer lecturing the kids on tough love and all that just doesn't do it for me.

I can appreciate that, but you seemed to be asking a general question as to why Flair would do such a thing – I just gave you the answer I perceived to be the reason after seeing him dress them down like that.

You also have to keep in mind, some of the fans watching TNA now might not have been for the last four+ years the way we (?) have, so they may not really know about just how dominant Storm, Roode or even AJ have been in the past, so to them the dressing down may make them out to be more youthful in the new TNA than they really are, ya know?

I probably wouldn't have had Flair dress them down like that either, personally, but I do understand the reason behind having him to do as well.

 

[Ferbian]

Yes, Kaz has funtioned primarily as a face, but it's been a failure at every turn because Kaz lacks the charisma that a traditional face usually owns to allow for the fans to care about what he has to say or do at any given moment. That's exactly why I think he'd benefit from the heel turn more than AJ would benefit from being the leader of Fourtune.

Yes but even considering many of the heels have benefited from being great talkers, Ric Flair, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, hell Hulk Hogan all benefited from the ability to talk down to his opponent, talk trash, or generally rant on about how he's the better guy and how he got screwed out of the victory.

So charisma still plays a role no matter alignment, Kaz could play a heel sure, but he won't be a top heel, because he lacks this little pearl so to say.

So if Desmond is the star they'll create, why bother retaining AJ who's already a certified star? I know HHH was already that star in Evolution, but who says this incarnation of the Horsemen needs to follow the footsteps of Evolution, anyway?

Same reason as Triple H was kept around, he was also a certified star, not as big, but A.J is not a certified GIANT star, he's a corner stone of TNA through his face career, not through his heel career, Triple H is a corner stone in both scenario's.

And Desmond would be created through being "a lackey" something that Randy and Batista was created through, ultimately feuding with the leader + the group, who would then be A.J because as I mentioned earlier, a true heel faction, needs a true main event wrestler, A.J is the only one who can pull that off in this faction.

Why not utilize Wolfe as the main-eventer, Kaz as the upper-mid-carder and BMI as the tag team instead of Wolfe & AJ as the main-eventers, or AJ as the main-eventer and Wolfe as the upper-mid-carder?

Because Wolfe is not a main event wrestler from what I know, he couldn't possibly step up and carry the company as world champion right now, a main event wrestler can.

Kaz as well would have to need a bit of building, he'd have to regain the X-Division championship because I always feel that the mid-card champion is an upper mid-carder, so either Kaz feuds with a main event player, or becomes the champion, any else he's not a upper mid-carder in my eyes.

The reason why I want A.J as the main eventer, and the rest on the mid-card part of it is because they need to be build as main eventers first, you can't just throw them in there and say "He's the main event, because he's the leader" no you need to actually come off as the main event player, not just say you're one until people believe you, after you've wrestled the mid-card guy's for a few months.

Because isn't that what Desmond has been doing? wrestling Abyss, wrestling the mid-card ? cause I sure as hell don't see Abyss as more than a upper mid-carder neither.

Granted, but Morrison isn't being discussed as a potential stable member. Stables can help mask a lot of personal issues with a wrestler and help to cover them up while he learns to react to them better – all the while keeping the focus on the stable instead of directly on the wrestler.

That's true, Morrison isn't a potential stable member, so let's take someone else, Shelton Benjamin, Team Angle, great in-ring talent, awful on the microphone.

Hell let's look at a faction who actually had a leader who wasn't really any great on the microphone and was a mid-carder as well, Nation of Domination, how did they do until The Rock took over? yep, awfully, they became insanely popular when The Rock took over, The Rock who grew quickly to become the main event player, The Rock who had charisma.

Granted, but he isn't mean to be. Really no one in the industry is forever a face or heel for that matter. The point is that when the "mask is torn off", Kaz will have evolved into a much more relevant character due to the benefits he received from Flair's tutorage.

That's very true, he could be relevant after a year or two as a heel, but that doesn't mean that his character screams charisma neither.

Besides, Kaz has changed gimmicks on and off on occasions, who's to say he doesn't get stuffed back into the Suicide costume in a few months, and the developed character will be wasted.

Jericho is to WWE as AJ is to TNA in that both are capable of removing themselves from the main event on any given night to feud with "lesser thans", and even lose to them as a means to elevate new talent, and not actually devalue themselves in the process. Jericho and AJ are over because they're over, and that won't change regardless of whether they're heel or face, or more importantly whether they're main event or mid-card.

True, A.J is just as versatile I'll give you that, Chris Jericho can be thrown down there and it won't hurt the business that much, because WWE has a lot more people to play off with much more popularity than Chris Jericho if he goes down in the mid-card to have great matches.

A.J going down, means they send their top guy down to the mid-card, RVD and Jeff Hardy are over I'll say that, but they're nothing compared to A.J's face reactions as far as I know, as you know, it's been a while since I've watched TNA, but seeing the reactions A.J got when he was a face, I can't imagine Jeff and RVD getting bigger pops on a regular basic.

Well you also have to look at it from the face point of view as well – as of this moment, Abyss' heel turn takes him away from the faces who'd feud with Fourtune, so they've already lost a number there.

Yes that is very true, but we still have Jeff Hardy, Mr Anderson and RVD who could be main event players who Fortune feuds with, as well as Hulk Hogan could be a guy Fortune would want to mess with, especially due to him being the "company leader" and Ric Flair's problems with Hogan.

As of this moment, it's Hardy & Anderson (tag) and Jay Lethal v. Kaz, AJ, Wolfe, BMI and Flair.

I see you acknowledged Hardy and Anderson, a tag team who could very well be broken up for the sake of feuding with Fortune, and even on that point if they stick as a tag team, meet Beer Money.

The faces do need an addition, and IMO there isn't a better choice in the company than an eventual AJ face-turn as ex-members always make the best options for new rivals to a stable.

Yes indeed they do need an addition, but does it need to be one of the top guys? isn't Kurt Angle still around as a face? I know he's feuding with the top 10 ranking people, but why not change that a bit, throw him against Fortune, it's refresh the old feud between Styles and Angle as well, with different alignments.

Kinda like Triple H and Randy Orton.
2004:
- Triple H: Heel.
- Randy Orton: Face.
2009:
- Triple H: Face.
- Randy Orton: Heel.

 

[snoopy]

I'm aware of what Flair is doing and how the angle is going, but that doesn't mean that I like it. Styles and Beer Money in particular have long since proven themselves and dressing them down like green punks doesn't make me view them as a serious force. After all, anyone that's watched TNA the past few years knows how good they are, so the old timer lecturing the kids on tough love and all that just doesn't do it for me.

He's their manager/coach that's what they supposed to do. if bill parcells did that then what's the diffrence. he's just finding away to motivate them so they can be the best the can be that's what a good coach does.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Yes but even considering many of the heels have benefited from being great talkers, Ric Flair, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, hell Hulk Hogan all benefited from the ability to talk down to his opponent, talk trash, or generally rant on about how he's the better guy and how he got screwed out of the victory.

So charisma still plays a role no matter alignment, Kaz could play a heel sure, but he won't be a top heel, because he lacks this little pearl so to say.

Precisely why Flair himself is the mouthpiece for the group. Flair, IMO, would probably do the majority of the talking for Kaz – at least until Kaz developed better techniques.

Same reason as Triple H was kept around, he was also a certified star, not as big, but A.J is not a certified GIANT star, he's a corner stone of TNA through his face career, not through his heel career, Triple H is a corner stone in both scenario's.

And Desmond would be created through being "a lackey" something that Randy and Batista was created through, ultimately feuding with the leader + the group, who would then be A.J because as I mentioned earlier, a true heel faction, needs a true main event wrestler, A.J is the only one who can pull that off in this faction.

Valid point. Great counter. I don't really have a rebuttal, to be honest.

Because Wolfe is not a main event wrestler from what I know, he couldn't possibly step up and carry the company as world champion right now, a main event wrestler can.

Kaz as well would have to need a bit of building, he'd have to regain the X-Division championship because I always feel that the mid-card champion is an upper mid-carder, so either Kaz feuds with a main event player, or becomes the champion, any else he's not a upper mid-carder in my eyes.

The reason why I want A.J as the main eventer, and the rest on the mid-card part of it is because they need to be build as main eventers first, you can't just throw them in there and say "He's the main event, because he's the leader" no you need to actually come off as the main event player, not just say you're one until people believe you, after you've wrestled the mid-card guy's for a few months.

Because isn't that what Desmond has been doing? wrestling Abyss, wrestling the mid-card ? cause I sure as hell don't see Abyss as more than a upper mid-carder neither.

That I don't really agree with. I think Wolfe is very much a main event wrestler because he has all the necessary tools to be one – most notably a fantastic personality. He was ROH's biggest draw (with a possible exception to Brian Danielson) just prior to joining TNA, and based purely on the fact that TNA debuted him in a feud with Kurt Angle – their biggest star – when he debuted, I can't see how anyone can't consider him main event material.

I know Wolfe has been busy jobbing out to mid-carders, but in the long-term I'm not really sure it'll matter. He, like AJ and Jericho, seems to be capable of bouncing back from losses – even losses to guys like the face incarnation of Abyss – with ease.

That's true, Morrison isn't a potential stable member, so let's take someone else, Shelton Benjamin, Team Angle, great in-ring talent, awful on the microphone.

Hell let's look at a faction who actually had a leader who wasn't really any great on the microphone and was a mid-carder as well, Nation of Domination, how did they do until The Rock took over? yep, awfully, they became insanely popular when The Rock took over, The Rock who grew quickly to become the main event player, The Rock who had charisma.

Valid point again, but I think Kaz has more vocal potential than Shelton Benjamin ever did.

That's very true, he could be relevant after a year or two as a heel, but that doesn't mean that his character screams charisma neither.

Besides, Kaz has changed gimmicks on and off on occasions, who's to say he doesn't get stuffed back into the Suicide costume in a few months, and the developed character will be wasted.

The Suicide character re-debuted on XPlosion very recently, and the dirt sheets report he's being played by New Japan star Kazuchika Okada. I can't see a logical reason why he'd end up back in the Suicide suit at all.

True, A.J is just as versatile I'll give you that, Chris Jericho can be thrown down there and it won't hurt the business that much, because WWE has a lot more people to play off with much more popularity than Chris Jericho if he goes down in the mid-card to have great matches.

A.J going down, means they send their top guy down to the mid-card, RVD and Jeff Hardy are over I'll say that, but they're nothing compared to A.J's face reactions as far as I know, as you know, it's been a while since I've watched TNA, but seeing the reactions A.J got when he was a face, I can't imagine Jeff and RVD getting bigger pops on a regular basic.

I'd say Hardy quite easily gets equal if not greater pop than AJ as a face. Hardy is IMO the biggest fan favorite in the company – even more so than RVD himself, and RVD is quite a fan favorite.

Yes that is very true, but we still have Jeff Hardy, Mr Anderson and RVD who could be main event players who Fortune feuds with, as well as Hulk Hogan could be a guy Fortune would want to mess with, especially due to him being the "company leader" and Ric Flair's problems with Hogan.

Sure, but Hogan doesn't provide long-term wrestling value. Some would even argue he barely provides short term value, myself included. RVD is a viable candidate, but considering the Lethal push and all the talk from Hogan about building new stars, I can't really see them continuing to use RVD at every turn despite the fact he's the WHC.

I see you acknowledged Hardy and Anderson, a tag team who could very well be broken up for the sake of feuding with Fortune, and even on that point if they stick as a tag team, meet Beer Money.

I did, yes, but as you'll notice when you watch iMPACT! later, they're really playing off the psychology of the trust/distrust between the two. I don't think they'll bail on them as a unit just yet – not for a while, I'd guess.

Yes indeed they do need an addition, but does it need to be one of the top guys? isn't Kurt Angle still around as a face? I know he's feuding with the top 10 ranking people, but why not change that a bit, throw him against Fortune, it's refresh the old feud between Styles and Angle as well, with different alignments.

Kinda like Triple H and Randy Orton.
2004:
- Triple H: Heel.
- Randy Orton: Face.
2009:
- Triple H: Face.
- Randy Orton: Heel.

Eh – Angle bailing on that Top-10 angle would be a booking failure, IMO. You don't have a guy like Angle come out, humble himself the way he did by removing himself from the ranking only to challenge every competitor from 10 up for their respective spots, only to have him bail after beating the first guy to join in on the fret to fight against a group of guys he has no real beef with (right now).

 

[Reddannihilation]

Having thought about this a fair bit, I am even more certain it'll be AJ to go. Currently we simply know that the group is known as Fortune. Now I propose a hypothetical, despite Flair talking about kicking someone out, over the next few weeks we see all 5 potential members fulfill the criteria to stay, eventually this leads to AJ and Co. coming to the ring and talking about how they're all so good none of them are "out" at this point Flair takes over and praises everyone then finally he gets to AJ and cuts into a speech that goes something like "...The problem, AJ, is that the name of the group is Fortune, let's say it again Fortune." At this point a simple raise of the 4-fingered hand and Flair repeats "fortune" holding the for, until Kaz, Beer Money and Wolfe jump AJ from behind and beat him down, maybe go as far as to send him through a table or a spot involving a chair to put him out for a few weeks. Of course they could go another way entirely but that's more or less how I see it going down.

As for why Kaz and not Wolfe should be the lead man, because Kaz needs it more. Wolfe proved when he entered TNA last year that he was already capable of main eventing, all TNA management needs to do is give the word and Desmond will be ready to take on guys like Angle, Anderson, Hardy and RVD in a credible and enjoyable manner, because Desmond Wolfe has a personality. Kazarian doesn't, he's tried getting over on his own and he can't. Replacing AJ gives him a few immediate benefits, 1.) He has Flair's backing. 2.) By cheating out AJ he immediately gains a level of heel heat he probably couldn't get in most situations and 3.) With Flair to help in gaining more heat Kaz will have enough time to actually develop a proper character which has always been his big problem because previously he's been given little to no time for character development. So I think in all honest Kaz deserves it, he's a good in-ring wrestler, he has the champion look (he's a bit bigger than AJ) and his mic skills are about average (with room for improvment) given the right push here he could make the jump to TNA's main event, whereas AJ doesn't need it, Wolfe could be there tomorrow if he wanted and Beer Money are a tag team so they're automatically out.

 

[Ferbian]

Sorry for the late respond, was watching TNA, as you probably noticed from my review post.

Precisely why Flair himself is the mouthpiece for the group. Flair, IMO, would probably do the majority of the talking for Kaz – at least until Kaz developed better techniques.

That's very true, A.J styles developed a "better" technique, or nonetheless another technique, Ric Flair could give the rub off with his speaking style, but he has also been associated with guys where their microphone skills has failed to change as far as I'm convinced.
Even though Ric has been around people with generally great microphone skills.

That I don't really agree with. I think Wolfe is very much a main event wrestler because he has all the necessary tools to be one – most notably a fantastic personality. He was ROH's biggest draw (with a possible exception to Brian Danielson) just prior to joining TNA, and based purely on the fact that TNA debuted him in a feud with Kurt Angle – their biggest star – when he debuted, I can't see how anyone can't consider him main event material.

Yes he has the tools to be one, Christian has the tools to be a main event wrestler, Charlie Haas had the tools to be a main event wrestler, but none of them are a main event wrestler, you have to have the accomplishments, and the feuding with actual main event wrestlers, constantly, in order to be considered one in my eyes.

And that's for example why I don't regard Chris as a main event wrestler, cause he feuds with the mid-card at times, and not for the sake of pushing them to the main event, mostly to make the titles seem credible, and the mid-carders pushed to upper mid-carders, therefore, pushing to his level.

Accomplishments in another promotion does nothing for your career in your current promotion, with perhaps the exception of Sting and Kurt Angle who didn't have to work through the TNA roster to be considered a main event player.

But guy a guy like Bryan Danielson, he didn't get to do shit with WWE, and he was a world champion, CM Punk was a world champion in ROH, what's he doing now? a main event feud yes, but what was he doing before? oh yes, a mid-card feud.

I know Wolfe has been busy jobbing out to mid-carders, but in the long-term I'm not really sure it'll matter. He, like AJ and Jericho, seems to be capable of bouncing back from losses – even losses to guys like the face incarnation of Abyss – with ease.

Perhaps he is, but A.J hasn't bounced back and forth, he has the ability to, but hasn't, which is why he in my eyes is considered a main event player, and Chris Jericho, who does bounce back and forth, is considered a upper mid-carder.

Valid point again, but I think Kaz has more vocal potential than Shelton Benjamin ever did.

That is very true, I will not say that, cause Shelton was awful to me, but nonetheless he's lacking, lacking is a no no.

The Suicide character re-debuted on XPlosion very recently, and the dirt sheets report he's being played by New Japan star Kazuchika Okada. I can't see a logical reason why he'd end up back in the Suicide suit at all.

Yep Suicide has been played by a multitude of people as far as I understand, but who knows, Okada could be all "screw this" or, wait.. ねじこの (Japanese for screw this) and Kaz could be back in Suicide.

I'd say Hardy quite easily gets equal if not greater pop than AJ as a face. Hardy is IMO the biggest fan favorite in the company – even more so than RVD himself, and RVD is quite a fan favorite.

Yes Jeff Hardy is also one of the biggest face names of the business, so that's a hard thing not to get a large pop, thanks for clearing it up, but A.J still gets huge face reactions.

Sure, but Hogan doesn't provide long-term wrestling value. Some would even argue he barely provides short term value, myself included. RVD is a viable candidate, but considering the Lethal push and all the talk from Hogan about building new stars, I can't really see them continuing to use RVD at every turn despite the fact he's the WHC.

True Hogan does not, but it's something that Fortune could feud with, Vince McMahon never posed a short, or long term wrestling value, but Stone Cold, Bret Hart, Triple H, Bobby Lashley feuded with him, and all benefited.

RVD is always a great choice yes, just adding Hogan to the list for more people to feud with, they could feud with any of the faces really, one member per card position.

I did, yes, but as you'll notice when you watch iMPACT! later, they're really playing off the psychology of the trust/distrust between the two. I don't think they'll bail on them as a unit just yet – not for a while, I'd guess.

That's true, I noticed that, so the break up could be there, more for Fortune to feud with, but still if they remain a tag team, Beer Money, it's a win win situation.

Eh – Angle bailing on that Top-10 angle would be a booking failure, IMO. You don't have a guy like Angle come out, humble himself the way he did by removing himself from the ranking only to challenge every competitor from 10 up for their respective spots, only to have him bail after beating the first guy to join in on the fret to fight against a group of guys he has no real beef with (right now).

Yes it'd be a shame to throw Angle away from actually benefiting the whole damn company in building stars in all of the top 10 ranked wrestlers, yet Angle is still a choice for Fortune to feud with, no matter how you twist and turn it, because a face, and well, A.J is on the list, Kaz is on the list, so it's not really a complete "no go area".

 

[Tiger Chaos Theory]

I to am interested in seeing how this new stable is booked. They would have to actually win some matches as heels, which TNA currently doesn't seem to like doing.

The thing here is, they need to actually start acting like a team. By this I mean they have to help each other during matches not just all stand next to each other during promos. TNA needs to build a closer bond between these guys that makes it look like they each care if the other succeeds. And no, this isn't something TNA has already done. Run ins after a match aren't the same thing as a member using old school heel tactics during a match to help out their stable-mate. They need to feed off each other to help them win matches.

I should add I have no problem with one member of a stable coming out alone and wrestling a whole match alone, but having people run out ofter he loses does nothing to build the wrestler up and adds very little to seeing these guys as a cohesive unit.

What terrible timing to officially lock together the creation of a stable. Each of it's members is just coming off loses and none of them have any for of legitimacy besides Styles who is slowly losing credibility as a real threat.

Edit: I'm not even close to done with this yet, I just wanted to make a sandwich.

And after Flair builds the group, one of it's "possible" members in Desmond Wolfe loses a match because he's too busing yelling at the woman who wanted to dump him for a fat slovenly idiot in Abyss. So this is the man who the audience should believe can be a threat to anyone he takes on as part of this new stable? The man who just spent the last six months losing at a ratio of about 1 win for every six loses. The man who lost his woman to an ogre who she fell in love with. And right after the promo that made Wolfe a laughing stock by having Abyss reject Chelsea, we see Wolfe take back her back as though he is a fucking pussy that has no respect for himself. That's no way to build someone up who we are expected to believe can be a success in a dominant faction, no way at all.

On the other end of that spectrum Beer Money didn't lose to much respect losing to Hardy and Anderson, but after losing to RVD and Lethal, TNA isn't doing a great job of putting over tag teams, but that's for another thread. Beer Money has a chance to bring the first ounce of credibility to the faction if they win the tourney and and beat MCMG () at Victory road, which would be a good first step in building the stable.

If they manage to win matches and titles I'll say they're a success, but I doubt they'll be booked to look dominant in anyway, so I'm putting my money on failure.