Texas Blowout

[klunderbunker]

DALLAS -- A Texas high school girls basketball team on the winning end of a 100-0 game has a case of blowout remorse.

Now officials from The Covenant School say they are trying to do the right thing by seeking a forfeit and apologizing for the margin of victory.

"It is shameful and an embarrassment that this happened," Kyle Queal, the head of the school, said in a statement, adding the forfeit was requested because "a victory without honor is a great loss."

The private Christian school defeated Dallas Academy last week. Covenant was up 59-0 at halftime.

A parent who attended the game told The Associated Press that Covenant continued to make 3-pointers -- even in the fourth quarter. She praised the Covenant players but said spectators and an assistant coach were cheering wildly as their team edged closer to 100 points.

"I think the bad judgment was in the full-court press and the 3-point shots," said Renee Peloza, whose daughter plays for Dallas Academy. "At some point, they should have backed off."

Dallas Academy coach Jeremy Civello told The Dallas Morning News that the game turned into a "layup drill," with the opposing team's guards waiting to steal the ball and drive to the basket. Covenant scored 12 points in the fourth quarter and "finally eased up when they got to 100 with about four minutes left," he said.

Dallas Academy has eight girls on its varsity team and about 20 girls in its high school. It is winless over the last four seasons. The academy boasts of its small class sizes and specializes in teaching students struggling with "learning differences," such as short attention spans or dyslexia.

There is no mercy rule in girls basketball that shortens the game or permits the clock to continue running when scores become lopsided. There is, however, "a golden rule" that should have applied in this contest, said Edd Burleson, the director of the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools. Both schools are members of this association, which oversees private school athletics in Texas.

"On a personal note, I told the coach of the losing team how much I admire their girls for continuing to compete against all odds," Burleson said. "They showed much more character than the coach that allowed that score to get out of hand. It's up to the coach to control the outcome."

In the statement on the Covenant Web site, Queal said the game "does not reflect a Christ-like and honorable approach to competition. We humbly apologize for our actions and seek the forgiveness of Dallas Academy, TAPPS and our community."

Covenant coach Micah Grimes did not immediately respond to a message left by The Associated Press on Thursday.

Queal said school officials met with Dallas Academy officials to apologize and praised "each member of the Dallas Academy Varsity Girls Basketball team for their strength, composure and fortitude in a game in which they clearly emerged the winner."

Civello said he appreciated the gesture and has accepted the apology "with no ill feelings."

At a shootaround Thursday, several Dallas Academy players said they were frustrated during the game but felt it was a learning opportunity. They also said they are excited about some of the attention they are receiving from the loss, including an invitation from Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban to see an NBA game from his suite.

"Even if you are losing, you might as well keep playing," said Shelby Hyatt, a freshman on the team. "Keep trying, and it's going to be OK."

Peloza said the coach and other parents praised the Dallas Academy girls afterward for limiting Covenant to 12 points in the fourth quarter. She added that neither her daughter nor her teammates seemed to dwell on the loss.

"Somewhere during that game they got caught up in the moment," Peloza said of the Covenant players, fans and coaches. "Our girls just moved on. That's the happy part of the story."

From the AP.

This to me is just flat out sad. I understand the idea of wanting to win a game, but at what point in that "contest" did the team that was up finally accept that they had done enough? "Oh it's only 51-0. They could catch up in the second half." That takes away the aspect of competition from the game. Dallas wasn't competing in this game at all, and what happened to them was a shame. I can even understand going until halftime at that pace, but if I were the coach I would have warned my players that if they scored almost anything that wasn't a total gimme shot in the second half they'd be benched. There was nothing to gain in that game whatsoever for them. The fact that they're trying to forefit is a nice gesture though, but for them to just try to get to exactly 100 is ridiculous.

So what do you think? Were they right to do what they did, or should they have done nothing in the second half?

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

I have no problem with a team trying but the fact they were still shooting 3's and pressing is where the problem lies. What I mean by trying is I dont expect the team to purposely miss shots or purposely turn the ball over because honestly if I was the losing team I wouldnt want that but they dont need to be pressing and chucking up 3's. You can slow the game down, milk some clock then take a shot. On defense maybe you could have slacked off a bit, you dont have to just give them an uncontested lay up or something but atleast slack off a bit so they atleast have a chance to score. I wouldnt want to make it look obvious that you werent trying though cause I kinda think that is just as much a slap in the face. Its almost like you're saying "We are so much better than you, we'll just give you a sympathy basket". Plus its kinda not fair to the team that is winning cause all these people are competitors and if you're a competitor you like to play as hard as you can, not just play half ass cause you're so much better than the other team. Another problem I have though is why would either team schedule this game in the first place? Isnt there a team closer to either of these teams skill level?

 

[Slyfox696]

Well, there is still some information that we don't know, at least from this article, that I would like to know.

1) How many players does Covenant have?
2) What is Covenant's record?
3) Who does Covenant have coming up on their schedule?
4) Were Covenant's subs in the game?
5) How long has Covenant's coach been there?
6) Why is there no mercy clock for fourth quarter blowouts?


I mean, obviously, there are things that you can do to control a score, but according to the report, Covenant only scored 12 points in the fourth quarter. That means they averaged 30 points or so in the first three quarters.

Let's say that Covenant had their subs in during the last couple of quarters. Why should the subs not have the opportunity to play the same style the rest of the team plays? Are we now going to tell our subs not to play hard, and to get better? What if this was their coach's first year, and he's still trying to put in his system of basketball? Maybe they had a game against a good opponent in the next couple of days, and the coach wanted to prepare his team for that next game.

There are a lot of factors that go into this. But, most importantly, how come no one is pointing the finger at the Dallas Academy coach? I mean, I've been on my fair share of bad beatings all ready, but we've never been beat 100-0. Maybe that coach needs to do a better job of working with his team and getting them better. We have two of the best teams in the state of Missouri in our area, and we play them both. And we got our ass kicked by both...but we didn't lose by 100.

Perhaps we should be pointing the finger less on the opposing coach, and more on the coach whose team was so bad they got beat by 100.

 

[klunderbunker]

In an update to this story, the principal of Covenant issued an apology to Dallas Academy for the way the game went which was accepted. The coach however refused to apologize and were fired. He stated that his team played the game the way it was meant to be played. I can understand his postition, but I don't agree with it at all. There's a difference between making sure that your team wins and is ready for your next game and then there's going too far. While I've never coached a team, it would seem to me that at some point the pounding of a team like this isn't going to help anymore. The score was apparently 25-0 at about 3 minutes into the game. I can even understand still going at that point, but after the first quarter the score was 35-0. At that point I would be relatively sure the game was reasonably out of reach.

Now, in answer to Sly's questions, this is what I've found.

1. Not sure, but at least 7.
2. 6-3 and undefeated in conference play. They forfeited the 100 point win officiailly and I'm not sure if 6-3 is before or after teh forefit. Their other losses came from out of state powerhouses.
3. Not sure.
4. Yes they were but the starters were rotated back in. There's also an argument over whether or not Covenant was playing a press defense for most of the game or not. There was one in the first quarter but then they backed off of it. The Dallas coach says that they went back to one while the fired Covenant coach says they didn't.
5. This was his fourth season. His first was 2-19 but he's built the team into a state title contender.
6. Not sure but the debate for instituting one has been started.

As for pointing the finger at the Dallas coach, I could see that as well. However, there comes a point when the combined efforts of Adolph Rupp, John Wooden and Dean Smith aren't going to help you. I've never seen any shame in being flat out defeated by a team that is completely better than you. Now this is obviously an extreme case. From what I read, Dallas got only 7 shots off all game. If I read the article right, Covenant was stealing the ball almost every time and ended with either a layup or an attempted three, even late in the fourth quarter. Once they hit 100 they went into a much more laid back defense after having pressed the majority of the game. That to me is unsportsman like. It's one thign to want to win a game, but it's another to humiliate an opponent.

 

[Slyfox696]

1. Not sure, but at least 7.

At least, or only? Because, if you only have seven kids, how can you help the fact they play hard?

2. 6-3 and undefeated in conference play. They forfeited the 100 point win officiailly and I'm not sure if 6-3 is before or after teh forefit. Their other losses came from out of state powerhouses.

Sounds like a team gearing up for being a major player in state competition. I guess we should all just throw in the sissy towel then.

4. Yes they were but the starters were rotated back in.

If you only have seven players, then of course starters were rotated back in. Everyone gets tired and needs subs. And if their team is like the team I coach, their seventh man could very well be as good as their first.

I coach our school's JV team, and I have ELEVEN players out of 15 who either could start, or have started. If that team only has 7 to 9 players, and their team is like mine, what difference does playing starters make?

There's also an argument over whether or not Covenant was playing a press defense for most of the game or not. There was one in the first quarter but then they backed off of it. The Dallas coach says that they went back to one while the fired Covenant coach says they didn't.

I'd trust the Covenant coach then. Why? Because it's obvious he knows a lot more about basketball than the Dallas coach does.

What probably happened is that the Covenant coach started in a full court press, and then dropped back to like a half court trap. Thus, Covenant is still pressuring the basketball hard, but not in a full court press. At that point, it's on Dallas to be able to handle the ball to get a score.

5. This was his fourth season. His first was 2-19 but he's built the team into a state title contender.

And I bet he did that by telling his kids that his style wasn't good once you were up by 20.

6. Not sure but the debate for instituting one has been started.

It's ridiculous that there isn't one already.

As for pointing the finger at the Dallas coach, I could see that as well. However, there comes a point when the combined efforts of Adolph Rupp, John Wooden and Dean Smith aren't going to help you.

Believe me, I know this all to well. But, then again, I promise you that John Wooden or Dean Smith or Mike Krzyzewski or Geno Auriemma or Pat Summit coached basketball teams wouldn't have lost 100-0.

From what I read, Dallas got only 7 shots off all game.

Then perhaps they need to do a better job of handling the ball.

If I read the article right, Covenant was stealing the ball almost every time and ended with either a layup or an attempted three, even late in the fourth quarter. Once they hit 100 they went into a much more laid back defense after having pressed the majority of the game. That to me is unsportsman like. It's one thign to want to win a game, but it's another to humiliate an opponent.

And it's something entirely different for a team to score 100 points in a game. And if they were that close already, then they might as well do it.

I haven't seen the game, so I can't say what really happened. What I can say is that flat out bashing the coach of the Covenant team is something that people would do who don't understand being in that situation. I've never been in a situation where we can beat a team 100-0, but I have coached in situations where we could score 100 points. I've been in situations where we beat the other team by 50. I've been in situations where I literally have the end of my bench put in the game, and continued to widen the gap on the other team. And Lord knows, I've been in situations where I've had my ass kicked by 50 (like last Friday night, where it was 19-2 at the end of the first quarter). I've been on all sides of the spectrum.

At some point, blame has to go upon Dallas coach and Dallas players though. Obviously they are not working as hard as they need to in order to be a better basketball team. So, while you might want to point the finger at Covenant, make sure you point one at Dallas too.

 

[klunderbunker]

At least, or only? Because, if you only have seven kids, how can you help the fact they play hard?

I'm not sure how many there were. The article wasn't clear on it. And even with 7 kids, I can understand having to put the starters in there so the players don't fall over from exhaustion, but once you're up 50-0, shouldn't the coach show some mercy and say no to press at full power? The team has clearly won the game and is in no threat of losing. I can understand playing hard, but there's no need to go out playing a press defense and firing up threes.

Sounds like a team gearing up for being a major player in state competition. I guess we should all just throw in the sissy towel then.

Sure they're a big team in the conference. That's all well and good but what are they trying to prove here? Does it make a difference if you win by 50 or by 100? By piling it on like this in the end they wound up losing the game. That's not fair to the players that were just listening to their coach. Had they won 50 or even 60 to nothing, this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue, at least I don't think.

If you only have seven players, then of course starters were rotated back in. Everyone gets tired and needs subs. And if their team is like the team I coach, their seventh man could very well be as good as their first.

I coach our school's JV team, and I have ELEVEN players out of 15 who either could start, or have started. If that team only has 7 to 9 players, and their team is like mine, what difference does playing starters make?

From what I've seen that's the case here. But like I said before, what is it helping to keep pounding on another team like that? You've won the game, your team has been completely dominant and there's nothing left to prove. Your starters would have to play with that small of a roster but there's no way I can validate playing full speed ahead at that point in a game. Through the first half is fine but the rest if ridiculous.

I'd trust the Covenant coach then. Why? Because it's obvious he knows a lot more about basketball than the Dallas coach does.

Absolutely unfair. I could coach the Dream Team from the 92 games in their prime against the Angola National team of today and they could have Phil Jackson as their coach and it wouldn't make a difference. Does that mean I know more basketball than Jackson? Of course not. It means I had more talent to play with.

What probably happened is that the Covenant coach started in a full court press, and then dropped back to like a half court trap. Thus, Covenant is still pressuring the basketball hard, but not in a full court press. At that point, it's on Dallas to be able to handle the ball to get a score.

[quote5. This was his fourth season. His first was 2-19 but he's built the team into a state title contender.

And I bet he did that by telling his kids that his style wasn't good once you were up by 20.[/QUOTE]

Sure they won and they're a good program now, but would letting up for one half in a game that you're absolutely dominanting hurt them? No, it absolutely would not.

It's ridiculous that there isn't one already.

Amen.

Believe me, I know this all to well. But, then again, I promise you that John Wooden or Dean Smith or Mike Krzyzewski or Geno Auriemma or Pat Summit coached basketball teams wouldn't have lost 100-0.

Possibly, but I'll also promise you that none of them have ever been head coach of a team of kids with learning disabilities that hasn't won a game in four years. The Dallas team probably knew they weren't going to have a realistic chance at being competitive, but there's a difference between beating someone and humiliating them.

Then perhaps they need to do a better job of handling the ball.

And it's something entirely different for a team to score 100 points in a game. And if they were that close already, then they might as well do it.

That's the point though. They were up 59-0 at the half. Did they need to score another 41 to ensure a victory?

I haven't seen the game, so I can't say what really happened. What I can say is that flat out bashing the coach of the Covenant team is something that people would do who don't understand being in that situation. I've never been in a situation where we can beat a team 100-0, but I have coached in situations where we could score 100 points. I've been in situations where we beat the other team by 50. I've been in situations where I literally have the end of my bench put in the game, and continued to widen the gap on the other team. And Lord knows, I've been in situations where I've had my ass kicked by 50 (like last Friday night, where it was 19-2 at the end of the first quarter). I've been on all sides of the spectrum.

I'm not saying that the Covenant coach is the only one at fault here because he's not. While there's a lot of reasons that caused this to happen, it was the coach's decision to try to steal the ball and take threes in the fourth quarter. It's one thing to be pulling away even more but do you have to try to pull away? What's the worst that can happen? You'll only win by 85?

At some point, blame has to go upon Dallas coach and Dallas players though. Obviously they are not working as hard as they need to in order to be a better basketball team. So, while you might want to point the finger at Covenant, make sure you point one at Dallas too.

Not as much of one at Dallas though. I can't blame the players and the coaches for having this kind of problem. They simply can't compete at this level. What I will give to the players is this though: I've yet to hear one word of complaining out of them. They took the loss well. I have no problem with a team losing as long as they're trying. That's what the game is about right? I do however have a problem with embarassing someone weaker than you. Dallas is at fault for having a lack of talent, but until I see otherwise I'll beleive that the coach is doing his best to improve that.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not sure how many there were. The article wasn't clear on it. And even with 7 kids, I can understand having to put the starters in there so the players don't fall over from exhaustion,

If you only have 7 people, starters HAVE to play.

but once you're up 50-0, shouldn't the coach show some mercy and say no to press at full power? The team has clearly won the game and is in no threat of losing. I can understand playing hard, but there's no need to go out playing a press defense and firing up threes.

The Covenant coach said he wasn't pressing. And I will NEVER tell my kids to not play hard.

Sure they're a big team in the conference. That's all well and good but what are they trying to prove here? Does it make a difference if you win by 50 or by 100? By piling it on like this in the end they wound up losing the game. That's not fair to the players that were just listening to their coach. Had they won 50 or even 60 to nothing, this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue, at least I don't think.

It's not about proving a point, it's about preparing your team to get ready for big competition. Coaches jobs depend upon winning, even at the high school level. And, not just winning, but winning championships. Coaches have to make sure their team is prepared for a deep run in the state playoffs.

From what I've seen that's the case here. But like I said before, what is it helping to keep pounding on another team like that? You've won the game, your team has been completely dominant and there's nothing left to prove. Your starters would have to play with that small of a roster but there's no way I can validate playing full speed ahead at that point in a game. Through the first half is fine but the rest if ridiculous.

You're going to tell your kids not to play hard?

I will never do that. At some point, it's the responsibility of the other team to do something to.

Absolutely unfair. I could coach the Dream Team from the 92 games in their prime against the Angola National team of today and they could have Phil Jackson as their coach and it wouldn't make a difference. Does that mean I know more basketball than Jackson? Of course not. It means I had more talent to play with.

Talent and ability are two completely separate things. You can have all the talent in the world, and not be good, and vice versa.

The reason the Dream Team was so good was because it was made up of players who received very good coaching along the way. Sure, they had a ton of ability, but they also had a lot of good coaching.

Sure they won and they're a good program now, but would letting up for one half in a game that you're absolutely dominanting hurt them? No, it absolutely would not.

Again, you seem to think telling kids to not play hard is okay. I completely disagree with that.

Possibly, but I'll also promise you that none of them have ever been head coach of a team of kids with learning disabilities that hasn't won a game in four years. The Dallas team probably knew they weren't going to have a realistic chance at being competitive, but there's a difference between beating someone and humiliating them.

They haven't won a game in four years, and you want to blame the other team's coach?

That's the point though. They were up 59-0 at the half. Did they need to score another 41 to ensure a victory?

They weren't doing it to ensure a victory, they were just playing hard. Then, they realized they had a chance for a 100, and they took it. Getting to 100 points in a basketball game, especially in girls basketball, is not something that happens a lot. It's something neat for your kids to be able to say they scored 100 points in a game. Trust me on that.

I'm not saying that the Covenant coach is the only one at fault here because he's not. While there's a lot of reasons that caused this to happen, it was the coach's decision to try to steal the ball and take threes in the fourth quarter. It's one thing to be pulling away even more but do you have to try to pull away? What's the worst that can happen? You'll only win by 85?

So, you're telling your kids to not play hard, do things the right way, and take open shots?

Basically, you want Covenant's kids to play basketball the wrong way, because the other team is so terrible? How is that fair?

Not as much of one at Dallas though. I can't blame the players and the coaches for having this kind of problem. They simply can't compete at this level.

That's their fault AND their problem. I bet if you were to look at the two programs, you would see a HUGE difference in them, in terms of committment.

[pquote]I have no problem with a team losing as long as they're trying. That's what the game is about right? [/quote]The game is about having fun, and becoming a better person, both on the floor and off.

It's not about telling kids to not try hard, and purposely doing things the wrong way.

I do however have a problem with embarassing someone weaker than you. Dallas is at fault for having a lack of talent, but until I see otherwise I'll beleive that the coach is doing his best to improve that.

And, again, I say that I haven't seen the game, and so I'm speaking merely on hypothetical. Is it possible that the coach was trying to embarrass the other team? Sure it is. But, what I'm saying is that I can see a MULTITUDE of instances where I would have no problem with what happened. However, we know for A FACT, that the Dallas coach obviously isn't doing a very good job of teaching basketball considering they haven't won a game in 4 years.

So, I withhold judgment on the Covenant coach, and cast blame on the Dallas coach.

 

[klunderbunker]

Instead of quoting every single part of ths, I've got a simple conclusion: you're assuming that I would tell them not to play hard and youi're wrong. I would tell them to play hard, but I'd tell them to not go for the throat. You can play hard using the most basic plays that you can think of. You don't have to run your best offense and your best defense. Winning is important but not if that's all that matters. These are still somewhat impressionable kids. Don't teach them to win at all costs. Basketball is a game. Treat it like something that you can have fun with, not life or death. The Dallas team for all I know is playing their hearts out and simply not getting there. Could be the coach's fault, could be the player's fault, could be the school's fault. If they're out there trying though, then that's all I can ask for them.

 

[Slyfox696]

Instead of quoting every single part of ths, I've got a simple conclusion: you're assuming that I would tell them not to play hard and youi're wrong. I would tell them to play hard, but I'd tell them to not go for the throat. You can play hard using the most basic plays that you can think of. You don't have to run your best offense and your best defense. Winning is important but not if that's all that matters. These are still somewhat impressionable kids. Don't teach them to win at all costs. Basketball is a game. Treat it like something that you can have fun with, not life or death. The Dallas team for all I know is playing their hearts out and simply not getting there. Could be the coach's fault, could be the player's fault, could be the school's fault. If they're out there trying though, then that's all I can ask for them.

And I'm telling you that you are WAY over-simplifying this. Against teams that are as bad as this Dallas team seems to be, you don't have to run ANY plays. Hell, for three years, our team didn't run plays, just freelance motion offense, which has no defined pattern. But, if you watch Duke play, you'll see how easy it is to get open three point shots. It's little more than a pick and roll, penetration and kick. It's basketball 101, and it's highly effective if you do it right.

Your right, winning is not the only thing that matters. But being successful is. And I'd be damned if I'd tell my kids to quit playing hard and getting better, just because the other team is terrible.

As far as whose fault it is on the Dallas side, I repeat what I said before. If you were to look at the two basketball programs, you'd see a VERY different commitment level. I'll promise you that. On one side you'd see a team that works in the summer, plays camp basketball, has open gyms (or practices if it's legal), and has kids that come to shoot and lift all the time. On the other side, you'll see a team that only cares about basketball season when season comes around, has poor practices, poor gameplans and all around poor quality.

I'll promise you that.