Technological Piracy.

[Dave]

OK, so a lot of the threads that have come around in this section in the last few days have been centred around one issue. That issue is some form of piracy. The emulation threads are great examples of this and the thread "You Got Duped!" Also deals whit it to some extent. Now, I am making this thread to get a read on how you guys go about using your software. Let it be known that I decided to go with piracy in the thread title instead of theft because I think that they are completely different terms that describe to different things. OK, so since the invention of the Internet, file sharing has been prevalent. Now, in a time where internet speeds are fast reaching 50 MB across the board, file sharing has never been easier or quicker.

The ethical dilemma of file sharing is not what I am interested in here. This thread is not designed to guilt anyone into using the full-price version because I am guilty of using some pirated software myself. The thing is, with costs of software and media expanding at a rapid pace, file sharing has completely taken off. The question is are you doing it?

Now, as you may or may not be aware of, the owners of The Pirate Bay, one of the biggest piracy websites in the world were recently embroiled in a high rofile law suit against a conglomeration of companies that were suing them for taking away revenue. The owners of the Pirate Bay were strong in their determination for a win in the court case that would have sent shock-waves throughout the world and showed no remorse. They kept updating the page with more and more updates about how Piracy will never die and to some extent, I believe them. In the end though, they were found guilty in Sweden and the result now sets a bench-mark for people and websites in the world wide web who host torrents or make torrents easily accessible.

This is bad news for a lot of people. You can type almost anything into a search engine, finish it off with ".torrent" and I can guarantee that 90% of what you ut in will generate an answer. Personally, I use many types of file sharing and I am not concerned with the result of the law case. I use Limewire sometimes to download individual songs. I use Isohunt to find torrents of software and missed episodes of TV shows and I use stream across the internet to view things I don't have access to at home. Now, it would be a little hypocritical of me to slam file sharing when I use it a lot myself. The problem for companies is that they are powerless to stop it. File sharing, as mentioned before, is growing at an exponential rate and nothing will slow it down. The companies who cry about it are multi-billion dollar industries and are just trying to set a precedent to show people it will not be tolerated. However, they wont stop making their movies and songs and we wont stop downloading them for free. Personally, I try to buy as much material as I can. I buy every 360 game I want and I but media that interests me. If some episodes are good, I will buy the full series. It's as simple as that to be honest.

So what are your views on piracy? Do you think it will ever stop and do you think that it is wrong or right of companies to try and stop this trend?

 

[Slyfox696]

Well, first of all, it is wrong to obtain anything illegally, if not for the financial aspects then certainly for the moral aspects.

The problem I, and most people, have is not the paying for things it's the "how much" we are paying for them. We'll pay $15 or more for a CD that we have never heard and have no idea how good it is, when it only costs mere pennies to create that CD. This is absurd. If you buy a house, you get to walk in it first. If you buy a car, you get to test drive it. If you buy a piece of fruit, you get to inspect it and make sure it's good for consumption. If you buy a computer, you have the chance to play with it first to make sure it's what you want. So how is it fair to pay for a markup that exists in the thousands of percent for an item that you have no idea on the quality of? That's the biggest problem people have.

And speaking of the music industry, the other problem I have is how the record companies just flat out lie to people, and say they are doing this to help the musicians. This is false. Musicians get a VERY small cut from album sales these days, most of the money is going to the record company.

In my opinion, if an entertainment industry was smart, they'd do the following. For every piece of property they put out (movies, music, etc.), they should release a trial version of that to be downloaded. If it's a movie, let someone watch the first 45 minutes. If it's an album, let them listen to it a set number of times (like two or three), and then have the file delete from their computer. Basically, do the same thing that trial computer software has done for years. This way, people can find out the music they want to here, legally, and if they wish to obtain a copy of it, then they buy it.

Will that stop pirating? Of course not, but It would certainly remove the biggest legitimate cause for downloading.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

You should buy anything that is readily available for purchase and that will be used for entertainment purposes. The one form of technological piracy that I do condone, however, is that which aims to obtain educational materials.

In my opinion, pursuing education for either personal enrichment or for the acquisition of human capital is a human right. For instance, if someone with little to no money wants to learn the principles of accounting to make themselves a more viable job candidate, then I see no problem with them downloading a copyrighted accounting textbook off of the Internet.

 

[Ty Burna]

The funny thing is, ThePirateBay.org in reality never physically hosted any copyrighted material. However what they did do is give a gateway to finding the material and giving users the ability to connect up with other users to share the material via peer to peer. Pirate Bay was more or less just a search engine for users to connect and share the "illegal" material. Is that wrong still? Sure, but the thing is that when they take Pirate Bay down, all it has done is taking out a small fish in a big pond. There are so many other torrent sites out there it is ridiculous. Not only this but there are also private trackers which are not as easily accessible or noticeable by any of the people tracking.

Here's another thing I find interesting. It's not so much the downloading of copyrighted material that's the issue, it's the sharing of the material that gets people into trouble. The companies that have been hired to find illegal downloads are going after those that have their media on shared, allowing everyone to download it. Thus why I never seed my downloads, only leech and delete them. Going into the legality of it all, I know it's wrong downloading music and software illegally, but I've been a pirate for so long and know how to get away with it, that it just becomes second nature to load up my torrent tracker and finding what I want.

Sly brought up the fact that we should be able to preview music like we do with almost everything else in life. That's a great idea and all, but I think someone beat us to that idea, I believe it's called the radio. Also looking at iTunes you can play a song in their store and see if you like it before purchasing. Sarcasm aside I agree that there needs to be a major change to the music industry's business model. The RIAA has done nothing but line it's pockets with money while masquerading as champions of the artists, and with the lawsuits and everything else they have been bringing against people, it has only distanced music fans and drove more people to downloading illegal music more. They don't have a clear plan to implement the digital age of music, in fact they would rather get rid of any ability to download music online, legally or illegally and return everyone to the 90's where everyone purchased CD's from a brick and mortar store.

Another interesting part to this entire story, is that people that download music illegally are the ones that spend the most on music (source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...pend-the-most-on-music-says-poll-1812776.html). This is in fact true on my end. I have spent quite a bit on iTunes, as well as purchasing CD's from Best Buy if I want a physical copy. I would like to think that these purchases go towards the artists, but unless that artist owns his own record label, they don't see much at all from their record sales. The record label that the artist is signed too gets a very large chunk, and the rest goes to fees that go into creating the CD. The artist makes much more off touring, merchandise sales, and public appearances.

So if my money isn't even going to the artist that I support, why should I pay for the music then? This is where the artists need to step up and change the system for themselves. Some artists have already tried a new approach by offering their albums directly off their websites, completely eliminating the middle man record labels and brick and mortar stores. I think this is a great idea, because with less middle man interference, the artist enjoys more of a cut from their own album rather than paying off the record labels with a majority of the profits. Often times artist put songs off their new album on their websites to listen to while on their site, which of course plays into the previewing music situation.

New ideas are needed in order to rejuvenate the music industry, but alienating fans and treating all of them like criminals is clearly not the way to go. The illegal sharing of music has been going on for ages, since the days of the cassette tape. Yes, those of us old enough to remember we used to get a tape from someone, grab a blank and record it. Just like today we can make a copy of a purchased CD with our computers. In today's world it's on a much larger scale unfortunately and that is where the problem lies. I don't think you will ever see an end to illegal music sharing, one way or another it will continue, but it can be curbed and limited if the industry were to make changes to cater to music fans everywhere.

 

[The Doctor]

I think that people should buy newer albums, songs, games, and movies. However, I thin Sly is totally correct when he says that we should be given a trial period, much like computer companies do with software. I'm not going to go and spend $12 on a CD because I like one single. Unless I like the band, I'm not going to go rush out and buy it.

If I've heard three or four songs on the album and liked them, then I will buy it.

However, if I've bought a CD because of one song and that's the only good song on the album, I've just wasted twelve bucks. That's happened to me once or twice, and it's extremely annoying.

If companies want people to stop pirating new works, they need to lower prices, or add a trial period. I know iTunes is trying that out with samples of the music you can buy in their store, and that's quite useful, but it's not enough sometimes. A sample of a song can sound completely different in the whole track.

I say, buy the new stuff and "acquire" the really old stuff (games, old old versions of software).

 

[X]

Call me a commie pinko hippie punk, but I could not care less about whether or not Bono or Michael Bay get my twenty dollars. Why the hell should I pay for something that I can obtain easily for free from the comfort of my own home? The odds of getting into trouble for filesharing are something like one in a million, you're more likely to get hit by a train probably.

I will however gladly pay to support independent music and film, that I have no problem with, because they really do need my money. Really the only albums I'll buy any more are those from underground artists or foreign bands like Sin Dios or Sin Apoyo. Same for independent film, an acquaintance of mine just released a film he made called "Methodic" (good slasher, you can find it on Amazon) and I gladly bought more than one copy to support him.

But when it comes to say, Metallica ..yeah, there's no fucking way I'm paying 25 dollars for a dozen songs from people that already have millions and millions of dollars. I have zero problem with downloading their music. Same with the majority of Hollywood films. I don't pirate games or software usually just because I don't need to, but when it comes to the latest Metallica album or Steven Spielberg movie, I have zero problem with downloading them.

Filesharing is wonderful, possibly the greatest invention of this new century.

 

[ABMorales787]

Funny. Where I come from piracy is almost an art form. Cops come to the flea market and purchase their $2 copy of a movie still in theaters almost every weekend. Its also how I get my WWE dvds. This isn't much of an issue really. The product has to come from a source. Somebody has to go to the theater and record the movie. Somebody needs to buy a game to then burn and upload. Thats how "peer to peer" works.The companies will always get their money, one way or another. Of course getting something like an unreleased movie or game is wrong. You are directly stealing from its producer. But unfortunately thats the double-edged blade that is piracy.

 

[The Doctor]

I'm with you, X. The last album I bought was Act II: Father of Death by The Protomen, an indie band. I happily forked over my ten dollars, and haven't regretted my purchase. I'm all for buying music and films to help out indie bands and filmmakers because unlike those that are already established they don't have all those other ways of getting revenue.

A lot of times I download albums because they're impossible to buy digitally. They might be imports from small countries, or old albums. I'm not going to buy them for inordinate amounts of money and wait a month just to get ten tracks.

 

[lordslix0129]

I have no problem with theft, piracy, file sharing. I've been torrenting music, movies, programs, ebooks, emagazines for years and have saved thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process of doing so. I have over 550GB worth of music (non-flac), imagine how much money I would have wasted if I had bought all that music?

 

[Dave]

I have no problem with theft, piracy, file sharing. I've been torrenting music, movies, programs, ebooks, emagazines for years and have saved thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process of doing so. I have over 550GB worth of music (non-flac), imagine how much money I would have wasted if I had bought all that music?

No, I completely agree with you. I for one save a lot of money that downloading things that I would have bought if there was no such thing as downloading. For example. I downloaded Kasabian's last album and was so disappointed with it, it was unbelievable. I would have spent £15 on that album to listen to it once and never listen to it again. I have no problem with downloading an album and giving it a fair listen because it does not cost me anything. I am much more likely to go out and buy something if I watch it on my computer or listen to burned copy and decide that it is worth my money. It has always been the case with me.

The other thing is that people who fight this are fighting a battle that they will never realistically win, in all truth. For every website they shut down, another one will pop up within days. Make no mistake, torrenting is here to stay and nothing will stop it. What companies need to do is make sure that they are making their product a worthwhile purchase. They could add a lot of extras to a DVD or put codes in the CD case for exclusive content. Make that code unique and you will ensure that people will buy the product. Roght now, you can get whatever you want by downloading and I don''t see that changing very soon.

 

[lordslix0129]

I am much more likely to go out and buy something if I watch it on my computer or listen to burned copy and decide that it is worth my money. It has always been the case with me.

That is definitely more honorable than what I do. Even if the album kicks complete ass, I still won't buy it. It's common knowledge that musicians make all of their money from concerts, and most of the musicians we like, are multi-millionaires at this stage of their career. There are a couple of bands out there that have no problem with piracy, like Nine Inch Nails, Guns N Roses and Dual Core music. All they care about is that people listen and like their music, and if they earn money from it, then even better.

The other thing is that people who fight this are fighting a battle that they will never realistically win, in all truth.

Agreed. The internet is open to anybody and everybody and broadband is cheaper than ever; this is why a lot of politicians are getting really anal about net neutrality, they realize if that if the internet remains open and they don't implement legislation and federal laws that forces ISP's to regulate what have access to on the internet, they will never win this battle. I've always made the case that programmers are amongst the most brilliant people in the world, there is no way in hell any government agencies can stop developers from continually writing new programs, building new sites, hosting private servers that enable the rest of us to pirate everything we need. Seriously, web development is in higher demand than ever, and there are way too many web developers out there that are ambitious and brilliant for the government to control. This is out of the government's hands, to a certain extent of course.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

We've probably all done it. We've often been divided on the subject. Who is being robbed? The Game Designers or The Software Companies, or perhaps the consumer? Journey onto and torrent site, be it Pirate Bay or Mininova or whatever, and you will no doubt find a whole selection of games, new and old that have been ripped and are ready to play. Is this right? This should be the definitive thread for all discussions.

Do you feel sleighted at the price of gaming today? Do you gladly pay whatever sum in order to support game designers? I remember Shadowmancer linking a game called Machinarium in the Bar Room. This was made by small time indie designer, and was one of the most charming games I've played in years, no matter how simple the medium of point and click. Is it right to simply steal from these aspiring designers? Should people be seriously charged over gaming piracy? What is your judgement on it? I know this may be slightly biased, this being an internet forum, and hence inhabited by the very people who use such mediums the most, but I'd just like to hear what everyones opinion is.

What about old games? Some games from the 80's have now become freeware, and with increasing technology, everyone can play an old PC game, or even emulate an old N64 or something as recent as a PS3 game, simply downloading and playing. Is this right? Should older games be made accessible? Whats your call?

Downloading Games Illegally, Yay or Nay?

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

I'm of the personal opinion that if you reduce the prices of a CD to say 10 bucks like they were BEFORE the 50% price increase THEN you'll see people buy CD's. its the fact that the record company's AND the movie industry refuse to change with the technology. its all about digital downloads now. not physical CD's.... same thing with PC games. why would I want to pay 50 bucks when I can download it for free? I actually buy the game if I like it. hell I bought the Sims 3 that way.


downloading illegally? YAY if you can't afford the thing you want. then BUY it when you can

 

[Dave]

It's really gunny that we have been talking about this subject and it has raised a lot of questions because now, more than ever, it seems as though more action is being taken by lawyers and courts to defend the copyright laws and the rights to distribute them freely. For instance, those who stay up to date with the latest laws on piracy and all things downloadable will know of the high-profile lawsuit that was filed against the owners of The Pirate Bay. The Pirate Bay lost and apparently have sold the naming rights ans servers etc to a new company. Now, when they lost, the were sued for, I think, $14 million. That is a huge, HUGE amount of money and obviously, as things are traded for free, they did not have it.

Now it seems as though they have changed targets. I have recently learned that the file-sharing site Mininova has been ruled against in Holland as has been forced to shut down all operations that allow file-sharing. They are still allowed to distribute copyright free material but that is the sort of crap that no one wants, otherwise it would not be free. Now, like it or not, this is a huge step forward for people fighting against the distribution of copyrighted material and is sure to spur them on further. With that in mind, I am very worried that it could soon become fashionable to close down these websites. It is an important note though, that the two biggest worldwide websites that deal in distributing copyrighted material are still running. IsoHunt and The Pirate Bay are still functional and remain glued to the cause that material should be free.

So, what do you make of the recent developments and how far will this go?

 

[The Doctor]

It's not going to work. File sharing is too huge to be put down. As one dies, another shall arise. You could compare it to Prohibition, and the rise of Speakesies and organized crime. Nothing will quench it, we'll just get more people in trouble.