Some of the WCW PPVs- Great or Gruesome?

[AegonTargaryen]

I've been downloading a lot of wrestling, mostly from torrents, as well as watching exciting matches I've never known existed, such as Bryan Danielson vs Cesaro/Claudio Castignoli from Throwback Thursday, as well as Sami Zayn vs Cesaro from Nxt. I've also begun downloading WCW ppvs, which I've never ever seen in their entirety. To me, most of them look loaded with brilliant matches and having quite a structure to it, something which WWE ppvs have always lacked. There's usually 2 big main events with stars like Savage , Hogan, Flair, Sting, Lex Lurger, etc. There're a few mid-card championship defences featuring the likes of Goldberg, Bret Hart, Booker T, Chris Benoit , Finlay, and so on. And 2 or 3 exciting Cruiserweight matches featuring the likes of Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, Ultimo Dragon, Juventud guerrera and many more. I've never seen or known so much stacked in a single pay per view.

However, I was checking this ppv Bash at the beach 1998 on Wikipedia, before embarking on downloading it and it looks like crap to me. Bret Hart uses a steel chair to get DQ'd against Booker T, Eddie beats Chavo in a hair vs hair match, Konnan beats Disco Inferno in 2 minutes, and I don't know who Kevin Greene is, who is defeated by The Giant. However, the two main-events look crappy.

Goldberg defeated Curt Hennig to retain the WCW World Heavyweight Championship (3:50)
Goldberg pinned Hennig after a Jackhammer.

Hollywood Hogan and Dennis Rodman (with The Disciple) defeated Diamond Dallas Page and Karl Malone (23:47)
Hogan pinned Page after an Apocalypse from The Disciple.

I really have no idea about who Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone are and what their significance is in the wrestling business. However, it looks like a crappy ppv for Bash at the beach. At least on wikipedia. What do you guys think? I've never really watched WCW in the 90s, especially during the downfall years of 1998, 1999 and 2000. For any of you who's watched this ppv, what did you think of it? And also, I'd like to be enlightened on various factors surrounding the WCW brand during that time.

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

Hmm. Firstly, ignorance shouldn't stop your enjoyment of a product - if anything it can increase it, discovering new wrestlers.

However, in this respect, it's probably valid.

Kevin Greene was a former NFL player brought in originally to feud with Mongo McMichael, I believe.

Dennis Rodman was an NBA star for the Chicago Bulls, one of basketball's more controversial characters, and a long-time nWo associate.

Karl Malone was another basketball player, I believe this was his only appearance.

You think that's bad? A month earlier, the ppv Road Wild was main evented by Hogan and Bischoff v DDP and ... talk show host Jay Leno!!!

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Hmm. Firstly, ignorance shouldn't stop your enjoyment of a product - if anything it can increase it, discovering new wrestlers.

However, in this respect, it's probably valid.

Kevin Greene was a former NFL player brought in originally to feud with Mongo McMichael, I believe.

Dennis Rodman was an NBA star for the Chicago Bulls, one of basketball's more controversial characters, and a long-time nWo associate.

Karl Malone was another basketball player, I believe this was his only appearance.

You think that's bad? A month earlier, the ppv Road Wild was main evented by Hogan and Bischoff v DDP and ... talk show host Jay Leno!!!

I actually have been discovering new wrestlers by downloading WCW ppvs and they're mostly loaded with amazing wrestlers and matches, whether it be cruiserweights like Juventud Guerrera and Ultimo Dragon, Chris Jericho and Dean Malenko, or Mid-card feuds and main-events. So far I've downloaded World War 3 1997, Spring Stampede 1999, Starrcade 1996 and Uncensored 1998. However this one particular event- Bash at the beach 1998 didn't quite look impressive to me on account of the reasons mentioned in the OP. I remember watching the Rise and Fall of WCW DVD, and I did glimpse all the terrible stuff they had done to ruin WCW, including the fingerpoke of doom and that idiotic Jay Leno and DDP match!

So far, I thought it should suck to be CM Punk and be in a lower spot on the card as WWE champion, whereas John Cena vs John Laurinaitis is the main event. But Goldberg as WHC being the second-last match to HH vs Dennis Rodman must have made Goldberg's world title reign hurt worse!

 

[PingPongBundy]

I don't remember BATB 1998 at all. That does sound like a lousy PPV. If you want a good WCW show, download Great American Bash 1996. There are a lot of great matches on this card. Scott Norton and Ice Train take on the Steiners in the opening match. Chris Benoit and Kevin Sullivan have an awesome falls count anywhere match. Kevin Greene and Steve McMichael (another ex-NFL player) take on Ric Flair and Arn Anderson. There are about five or six more matches. What I remember most about this show was that it set the framework for the NWO to be formed a month later. Check it out, I think you'll find it to be one of the better WCW shows.

 

[chynasbustedimplant]

I've been downloading a lot of wrestling, mostly from torrents, as well as watching exciting matches I've never known existed, such as Bryan Danielson vs Cesaro/Claudio Castignoli from Throwback Thursday, as well as Sami Zayn vs Cesaro from Nxt. I've also begun downloading WCW ppvs, which I've never ever seen in their entirety. To me, most of them look loaded with brilliant matches and having quite a structure to it, something which WWE ppvs have always lacked. There's usually 2 big main events with stars like Savage , Hogan, Flair, Sting, Lex Lurger, etc. There're a few mid-card championship defences featuring the likes of Goldberg, Bret Hart, Booker T, Chris Benoit , Finlay, and so on. And 2 or 3 exciting Cruiserweight matches featuring the likes of Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, Ultimo Dragon, Juventud guerrera and many more. I've never seen or known so much stacked in a single pay per view.

However, I was checking this ppv Bash at the beach 1998 on Wikipedia, before embarking on downloading it and it looks like crap to me. Bret Hart uses a steel chair to get DQ'd against Booker T, Eddie beats Chavo in a hair vs hair match, Konnan beats Disco Inferno in 2 minutes, and I don't know who Kevin Greene is, who is defeated by The Giant. However, the two main-events look crappy.

Goldberg defeated Curt Hennig to retain the WCW World Heavyweight Championship (3:50)
Goldberg pinned Hennig after a Jackhammer.

Hollywood Hogan and Dennis Rodman (with The Disciple) defeated Diamond Dallas Page and Karl Malone (23:47)
Hogan pinned Page after an Apocalypse from The Disciple.

I really have no idea about who Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone are and what their significance is in the wrestling business. However, it looks like a crappy ppv for Bash at the beach. At least on wikipedia. What do you guys think? I've never really watched WCW in the 90s, especially during the downfall years of 1998, 1999 and 2000. For any of you who's watched this ppv, what did you think of it? And also, I'd like to be enlightened on various factors surrounding the WCW brand during that time.

To say Bash '98 was a crappy ppv is an understatement. As someone who pitched in money with friends in high school to purchase that mess, that was one of many low points WCW put on television. Having suffered the month prior with Jay Leno in the place of Karl Malone and Bischoff in the place of Dennis Rodman, Bash '98 actually seemed like a step-up.

As for the World Title squash match... thats just what you got from Goldberg at that time. Throw someone out there with him and watch Goldberg destroy him in under 5minutes.

They put on better Chash of the Champions than some of these ppv's.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

I don't remember BATB 1998 at all. That does sound like a lousy PPV. If you want a good WCW show, download Great American Bash 1996. There are a lot of great matches on this card. Scott Norton and Ice Train take on the Steiners in the opening match. Chris Benoit and Kevin Sullivan have an awesome falls count anywhere match. Kevin Greene and Steve McMichael (another ex-NFL player) take on Ric Flair and Arn Anderson. There are about five or six more matches. What I remember most about this show was that it set the framework for the NWO to be formed a month later. Check it out, I think you'll find it to be one of the better WCW shows.

Thank you for your input! I already had it in mind to download it, and right now quite many WWE Network-WCW ppvs are available on the torrents so I've selected a few. I never thought Steve "Mongo" McMichael was an ex-NFL player because he seemed to me to possess a wrestler's bearing and demeanour and even sat at commentary ,as much as I can remember from my limited knowledge of WCW.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

BATB 1998 was alright. Billy Kidman/Juventud Guerrera, Jericho/Mysterio, Chavo/Eddie were great matches. Goldberg/Hennig was a typical Goldberg match. As for Hollywood Hogan & Dennis Rodman / Diamond Dallas Page & Karl Malone, it got great mainstream media attention for WCW.

Anyway these are some of the better WCW PPVs -

Halloween Havoc 1998
WCW World Television Championship: Raven vs. Chris Jericho
Number 1 Contender's Match for WCW Cruiserweight Championship: Disco Inferno vs. Juventud Guerrera.
WCW Cruiserweight Championship: Number 1 Contender vs. Kidman
No DQ Match: Scott Steiner vs. Rick Steiner.
Scott Hall vs. Kevin Nash.
WCW United States Heavyweight Championship: Sting vs. Bret Hart
Hollywood Hogan vs. Warrior.
WCW World Heavyweight Championship: Diamond Dallas Page vs. Goldberg

Uncensored 1998
Booker T vs. Eddie Guerrero
DDP vs. Chris Benoit vs. Raven
The Giant vs. Kevin Nash
Bret Hart vs. Curt Hennig
Sting vs. Scott Hall
Hollywood Hogan vs. Randy Savage

Spring Stampede 1999
Juventud Guerrera vs. Blitzkrieg
Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Hak - hardcore match
Rey Mysterio Jr. vs. Billy Kidman
Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko vs. Raven & Perry Saturn
Scott Steiner vs. Booker T
Goldberg vs. Kevin Nash
DDP vs. Ric Flair vs Hollywood Hogan vs. Sting with Randy Savage as Special Guest Referee

 

[obamartins]

I really have no idea about who Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone are and what their significance is in the wrestling business. However, it looks like a crappy ppv for Bash at the beach. At least on wikipedia. What do you guys think? I've never really watched WCW in the 90s, especially during the downfall years of 1998, 1999 and 2000. For any of you who's watched this ppv, what did you think of it? And also, I'd like to be enlightened on various factors surrounding the WCW brand during that time.

Bash At the Beach 1998 was the 2nd most bought (aprox. 600,000 buys) WCW PPV in history behind Starrcade 1997. WCW grossed over $6 million from Bash at the Beach 1998. The mainstream media publicity surpassed that for any other WCW event in history.

The next day the WWF talked more about the event on Raw than WCW did on Nitro.

Mainstream media coverage was not hard to find as that night local sportscasts across the country showed footage followed by snide comments about a wholesome athlete like Malone soiling himself in the farce that is pro wrestling. ESPN, CNN, and FoxSports covered the event that night.

The next day virtually every sports section in the country carried at least an AP article on the event. USA Today ran a big article on the event the next day. Color photographs were published in hundreds of newspapers across the country.

Jay Mariotti of the Chicago Sun-Times wrote a typical article criticizing the event. The headline read: "Rassle-fest pins disgrace on Rodman and Malone." He wrote: "Your escapism is my lunacy. Your entertainment is my sacrilege. Your contention that Rodman and Malone were merely having some good old fun during their imbecilic slamfest in San Diego is my fear that society has gone completely daffy." He wrote that the NBA Finals became a mere promotional tool for the WCW event. He said pro wrestling's choreographed nature is rubbing off on real sports, citing that Malone just signed on with the same sports agent who represents Rodman. "Such infiltration should nauseate anyone who tries to treat sports legitimately... The lines between real sports and rasslin' are blurring to the point that someday, not far away, one could be as phony as the other. And if sports is phony, why watch it?"

Malone defended his involvement in dozens of newspaper articles in the week leading up to the event. "I'm already in the entertainment business," he said. "This is just another step. If I'm looking to do movies in the future, what greater opportunity than this? To me, this is like I tried out for a lead role in my first action-packed movie and got it."

Besides the appearances by all Hulk Hogan, Dallas Page, Dennis Rodman & Karl Malone on the Tonight Show, Dallas Page was interviewed on the hip "Daily Show" on Comedy Central. ABC World News Tonight did a feature on pro wrestling later that week centered on the Bash at the Beach main event.

I get it, I'm from the UK & not exactly familiar with Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone & Kevin Greene either but it's 2014...& we have Google & YouTube.

1998 was not a downfall year for WCW. 1998 was the most successful year in WCW history in every facet. WCW made aprox $55 million in profit in 1998.

RAW is WAR average rating in 1998 = 4.35
WCW Monday NITRO average rating in 1998 = 4.43

Finger Poke of Doom did not ruin WCW...just because a biased revisionist history WWE produced DVD claims that it did doesn't mean that it is true. Search on YouTube "Finger Poke of Doom DID NOT KILL WCW". The Jay Leno match at Road Wild 1998 also didn't do anything to hurt WCW either regardless of how much yourself, myself or anyone else for matter disliked it.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

BATB 1998 was alright. Billy Kidman/Juventud Guerrera, Jericho/Mysterio, Chavo/Eddie were great matches. Goldberg/Hennig was a typical Goldberg match. As for Hollywood Hogan & Dennis Rodman / Diamond Dallas Page & Karl Malone, it got great mainstream media attention for WCW.

Anyway these are some of the better WCW PPVs -

Halloween Havoc 1998
WCW World Television Championship: Raven vs. Chris Jericho
Number 1 Contender's Match for WCW Cruiserweight Championship: Disco Inferno vs. Juventud Guerrera.
WCW Cruiserweight Championship: Number 1 Contender vs. Kidman
No DQ Match: Scott Steiner vs. Rick Steiner.
Scott Hall vs. Kevin Nash.
WCW United States Heavyweight Championship: Sting vs. Bret Hart
Hollywood Hogan vs. Warrior.
WCW World Heavyweight Championship: Diamond Dallas Page vs. Goldberg

Uncensored 1998
Booker T vs. Eddie Guerrero
DDP vs. Chris Benoit vs. Raven
The Giant vs. Kevin Nash
Bret Hart vs. Curt Hennig
Sting vs. Scott Hall
Hollywood Hogan vs. Randy Savage

Spring Stampede 1999
Juventud Guerrera vs. Blitzkrieg -
Bam Bam Bigelow vs. Hak - hardcore match
Rey Mysterio Jr. vs. Billy Kidman - (Great match)
Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko vs. Raven & Perry Saturn
Scott Steiner vs. Booker T -
Goldberg vs. Kevin Nash -
DDP vs. Ric Flair vs Hollywood Hogan vs. Sting with Randy Savage as Special Guest Referee

Thank you for your input! Already downloaded the latter two, and I agree they're quite good ppvs. As for Goldberg/Hennig for the WHC, you mean even in his WHC defenses were 3-minute squashes???

Bash At the Beach 1998 was the 2nd most bought (aprox. 600,000 buys) WCW PPV in history behind Starrcade 1997. WCW grossed over $6 million from Bash at the Beach 1998. The mainstream media publicity surpassed that for any other WCW event in history.

The next day the WWF talked more about the event on Raw than WCW did on Nitro.

Mainstream media coverage was not hard to find as that night local sportscasts across the country showed footage followed by snide comments about a wholesome athlete like Malone soiling himself in the farce that is pro wrestling. ESPN, CNN, and FoxSports covered the event that night.

The next day virtually every sports section in the country carried at least an AP article on the event. USA Today ran a big article on the event the next day. Color photographs were published in hundreds of newspapers across the country.

Jay Mariotti of the Chicago Sun-Times wrote a typical article criticizing the event. The headline read: "Rassle-fest pins disgrace on Rodman and Malone." He wrote: "Your escapism is my lunacy. Your entertainment is my sacrilege. Your contention that Rodman and Malone were merely having some good old fun during their imbecilic slamfest in San Diego is my fear that society has gone completely daffy." He wrote that the NBA Finals became a mere promotional tool for the WCW event. He said pro wrestling's choreographed nature is rubbing off on real sports, citing that Malone just signed on with the same sports agent who represents Rodman. "Such infiltration should nauseate anyone who tries to treat sports legitimately... The lines between real sports and rasslin' are blurring to the point that someday, not far away, one could be as phony as the other. And if sports is phony, why watch it?"

Malone defended his involvement in dozens of newspaper articles in the week leading up to the event. "I'm already in the entertainment business," he said. "This is just another step. If I'm looking to do movies in the future, what greater opportunity than this? To me, this is like I tried out for a lead role in my first action-packed movie and got it."

Besides the appearances by all Hulk Hogan, Dallas Page, Dennis Rodman & Karl Malone on the Tonight Show, Dallas Page was interviewed on the hip "Daily Show" on Comedy Central. ABC World News Tonight did a feature on pro wrestling later that week centered on the Bash at the Beach main event.

I get it, I'm from the UK & not exactly familiar with Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone & Kevin Greene either but it's 2014...& we have Google & YouTube.

1998 was not a downfall year for WCW. 1998 was the most successful year in WCW history in every facet. WCW made aprox $55 million in profit in 1998.

RAW is WAR average rating in 1998 = 4.35
WCW Monday NITRO average rating in 1998 = 4.43

I do not mean to disparage or demean the accomplishments of the WCW brand, nor argue about the statistics and ratings war in which WCW had seemingly won until 1998. But judging from this PPV, I was wondering is this really not the year and one of the major reasons resulting in the eventual downfall? Goldberg beats Hennig in a 3 minute 50 second squash, whereas in the WWF, Austin was routinely wrestling 30 minutes, and often gruelling falls count anywhere matches with Mick Foley/Dude Love, The Undertaker and so on. As for the mainstream attention and celebrity/Basketballers involved, it does get you attention, but is it not a sign of desperation to have your brand get noticed AT ANY COST, even at the cost of Jay Leno arm-wrenching Hulk Hogan in the main event of your ppv, which has now become an infamous footage in the Rise and Fall of WCW DVD?

I do agree in 1998 WCW had lots of exciting ppvs and matches, but was the single year which marked the incipient Death of WCW due to excessive involvement of Basketballers/Celebrity in main events, and if I'm not mistaken the fingerpoke of doom happen in 1998 as well?

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Thank you for your input! Already downloaded the latter two, and I agree they're quite good ppvs. As for Goldberg/Hennig for the WHC, you mean even in his WHC defenses were 3-minute squashes???

No. Not all. Goldberg/DDP (Halloween Havoc) was over 10 minutes. Anyway, that was the point. Goldberg did what he was supposed to do. People did not wanted to see him wrestle long matches. His character was of an unstoppable powerhouse who can beat his opponents in minutes. That was the speciality of Goldberg. That was one of the reasons why he was so over.

Allowing him to wrestle long matches was one of the reasons he never worked in WWE.

- WCW in 1998 had Hollywood Hogan, Randy Savage, Sting, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, DDP, Sting, Lex Luger, Bret Hart, Ric Flair, The Giant etc. The roster was so star-studded that nearly most of the matches involved one of the main-event stars, so Goldberg wrestling one short match was not a problem.

 

[obamartins]

I do not mean to disparage or demean the accomplishments of the WCW brand, nor argue about the statistics and ratings war in which WCW had seemingly won until 1998.

Fair enough. However you did claim 1998 was a downfall year for WCW which is false. Therefore that is why I stated 1998 was WCW's most successful year in every facet & posted 1998 ratings averages for RAW & NITRO to give you some perspective.

But judging from this PPV, I was wondering is this really not the year and the one of the major reasons resulting in the downfall? Goldberg beats Hennig in a 3 minute 50 second squash, whereas in the WWF, Austin was routinely wrestling 30 minutes, and often gruelling falls count anywhere matches with Mick Foley/Dude Love, The Undertaker and so on.

Goldberg got over doing squash matches. Goldberg was booked in squash matches to camouflage the fact that he couldn't work long matches because he was green. Fans paid to see Goldberg squash people & got exactly what they wanted.

The general consensus was that WWF had crappy undercards & good main events & WCW had vice versa. WWF may have had Steve Austin wrestling Mick Foley in main events but on the undercard you had DOA, Headbangers, Godwins, Savio Vega, Marc Mero, Bombastic Bob, Bodacious Bart etc.

I agree with Eric Bischoff however when he defended WCW main events stating "from a wrestling POV there is no doubt that those main events didn't deliver but from the fans POV & the reaction we got at the end of the show as far as the people sitting in the seats & the people living it vicariously through the TV, it did deliver in terms of the audiences satisfaction. In terms of character, storyline & attitude they over delivered."

If you study the numbers the downfall of WCW began in Spring 1999. If You read Eric Bischoff's book "Controversy Creates Cash" the downfall began in August 1998 but not because of what was happening on screen but because of what was happeneing behind the scenes with the corporate suits.

"The real turning point for WCW came in August 1998, when I lost control of my company and its future. But even by the end of the year, you couldn’t see it in the ratings. You couldn’t see it in the financial books. You couldn’t tell by the number of people coming to events. But our fate had been sealed. There were people at a very high level in the Turner/Time Warner organization who absolutely did not want WCW to succeed. They did everything they could, from early 1998, to lay the groundwork for WCW’s failure, so they could get WCW off the books. They couldn’t do that when Ted Turner was in firm control, but by now his grip had slipped. They couldn’t attack WCW directly, either. They had to play the corporate game, waiting until the time was right."

As for the mainstream attention and celebrity/Basketballers involved, it does get you attention, but is it not a sign of desperation to have your brand get noticed AT ANY COST, even at the cost of Jay Leno arm-wrenching Hulk Hogan in an infamous footage?
I do agree in 1998 WCW had lots of exciting ppvs and matches, but due to excessive involvement of Basketballers/Celebrity in main events, and if I'm not mistaken the fingerpoke of doom happen in 1998 as well?

When I saw you make a comment about Jay Leno & Finger Poke of Doom in a different comment, I edited the first comment I made & addressed what you said about those situations there. Jay Leno & Finger Poke of Doom were not bad for WCW.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

No. Not all. Goldberg/DDP (Halloween Havoc) was over 10 minutes. Anyway, that was the point. Goldberg did what he was supposed to do. People did not wanted to see him wrestle long matches. His character was of an unstoppable powerhouse who can beat his opponents in minutes. That was the speciality of Goldberg. That was one of the reasons why he was so over.

Allowing him to wrestle long matches was one of the reasons he never worked in WWE.

- WCW in 1998 had Hollywood Hogan, Randy Savage, Sting, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, DDP, Sting, Lex Luger, Bret Hart, Ric Flair, The Giant etc. The roster was so star-studded that nearly most of the matches involved one of the main-event stars, so Goldberg wrestling one short match was not a problem.

I understand the intriguing aspects about the Goldberg character, his silence, his entrance, the intensity and wrestlers being power slammed, speared and jackhammered. One, two and three. However, except the 10-minute DDP/Goldberg and Nash/Goldberg matches, he defeated Hennig, Saturn, etc. mostly under 6-minutes. IMO, it should've been at least 10 solid minutes with those guys, and 12-15 mins with Nash/DDP. However, if keeping Goldberg's matches that short even for his WHC defenses was better, so be it. As for his WWE matches with HHH which were sort of long, I do believe they seemed to sort of drag on and were largely unenjoyable to watch IMO.

As for the number of stars you enlist, my goodness! Almost every WCW ppv seems loaded with great in-ring action and star power. In fact, every ppv has 15-minute matches featuring just cruiserweights. I was incredulous seeing how most undercard matches are 12-15 minutes long and featuring talents such as Chris Benoit ,Chris Jericho, Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio Jr. , Juventud Guerrera, Finlay, and so on. In the WWE, the only decent 15-min match from the Undercard you get even at their biggest ppv can only be between Randy Orton and CM punk, or Kane and Orton, whereas most undercard matches from other ppvs are well under the 10-minute time-limit mark. It sort of makes these old WCW ppvs look like Wrestlemanias in a row with exciting matches between the best of talent.

Examples:-
From Wrestlemania 29
Team Hell No (Kane and Daniel Bryan) (c) defeated Dolph Ziggler and Big E Langston (with AJ Lee)[25] Tag team match for the WWE Tag Team Championship 06:16 (just 6 minutes!?)

Mark Henry defeated Ryback[24] Singles match 08:02

WM28:-
Big Show defeated Cody Rhodes (c)[39] Singles match for the WWE Intercontinental Championship 05:18

Sheamus defeated Daniel Bryan (c) (with AJ Lee) [37] Singles match for the World Heavyweight Championship 00:18

WM27:-
Kane, Big Show, Santino Marella, and Kofi Kingston defeated The Corre (Wade Barrett, Ezekiel Jackson, Justin Gabriel, and Heath Slater)[46] Eight-man tag team match 01:34[47]

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Fair enough. However you did claim 1998 was a downfall year for WCW which is false. Therefore that is why I stated 1998 was WCW's most successful year in every facet & posted 1998 ratings averages for RAW & NITRO to give you some perspective.



Goldberg got over doing squash matches. Goldberg was booked in squash matches to camouflage the fact that he couldn't work long matches because he was green. Fans paid to see Goldberg squash people & got exactly what they wanted.

The general consensus was that WWF had crappy undercards & good main events & WCW had vice versa. WWF may have had Steve Austin wrestling Mick Foley in main events but on the undercard you had DOA, Headbangers, Godwins, Savio Vega, Marc Mero, Bombastic Bob, Bodacious Bart etc.

I agree with Eric Bischoff however when he defended WCW main events stating "from a wrestling POV there is no doubt that those main events didn't deliver but from the fans POV & the reaction we got at the end of the show as far as the people sitting in the seats & the people living it vicariously through the TV, it did deliver in terms of the audiences satisfaction. In terms of character, storyline & attitude they over delivered."

If you study the numbers the downfall of WCW began in Spring 1999. If You read Eric Bischoff's book "Controversy Creates Cash" the downfall began in August 1998 but not because of what was happening on screen but because of what was happeneing behind the scenes with the corporate suits.

"The real turning point for WCW came in August 1998, when I lost control of my company and its future. But even by the end of the year, you couldn’t see it in the ratings. You couldn’t see it in the financial books. You couldn’t tell by the number of people coming to events. But our fate had been sealed. There were people at a very high level in the Turner/Time Warner organization who absolutely did not want WCW to succeed. They did everything they could, from early 1998, to lay the groundwork for WCW’s failure, so they could get WCW off the books. They couldn’t do that when Ted Turner was in firm control, but by now his grip had slipped. They couldn’t attack WCW directly, either. They had to play the corporate game, waiting until the time was right."



When I saw you make a comment about Jay Leno & Finger Poke of Doom in a different comment, I edited the first comment I made & addressed what you said about those situations there. Jay Leno & Finger Poke of Doom were not bad for WCW.

I'm certainly not well-acquainted with the chronological development, nor the historical sense when it comes to WCW. So I merrily retract my statement about 1998 being a bad year. But you'll have to admit 2000 and 2001 were extremely crappy years, if you try to see WCW Nitro shows, or the ppvs. I can't deny 1998 have lots of amazing cruiserweight and mid-card matches, as well as having almost a dozen "big name" stars. WCW from 1996-1999 probably had the biggest assemblage of the greatest stars, from Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Sting, Randy Savage, Roddy Piper, Goldberg, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Bret Hart, Lex Luger.....How amazing is that! ? One just wonders what would've happened had Shawn Michaels migrated to WCW in 1998 and stayed(and his back injury never happened).

 

[LoganFate]

I watched WCW in the last 80's and early 90's not realizing it was the "last run" for a lot of greats that use to be in the WWE. I am talking before Turner brought them out and everyone was jumping ship. Like Mr. Wonderful Paul Orndorff, Ricky The Dragon, Cowboy Bob Orton, etc. These guys had to be in their 40s at this point and still looked and wrestled great. It was also the final run for guys like the Freebirds, Rock and Roll Express, Midnight Express, etc. I didn't start watching WWE until about Wresltemania 5 but ultimately liked NWA/WCW better because of their format.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

I watched WCW in the last 80's and early 90's not realizing it was the "last run" for a lot of greats that use to be in the WWE. I am talking before Turner brought them out and everyone was jumping ship. Like Mr. Wonderful Paul Orndorff, Ricky The Dragon, Cowboy Bob Orton, etc. These guys had to be in their 40s at this point and still looked and wrestled great. It was also the final run for guys like the Freebirds, Rock and Roll Express, Midnight Express, etc. I didn't start watching WWE until about Wresltemania 5 but ultimately liked NWA/WCW better because of their format.

It must certainly be lucky to be old enough in the '80s and '90s and having watched all that great wrestling product, especially WCW. I'd like to ask you, with so many awesome ppvs, and the "format" of WCW as you call it, with such strong mid-card, the cruiserweights, etc. How did you react when the ship of WCW sunk in 2001, and if you've followed WWE in so many years, what did you think of the crappiness of the undercard from until 2011? And by crappiness, I mean The Miz, Ryback, and numerous others, as well as lack of big stars so the only thing WWE was about in the last many years was John Cena, Randy Orton, HHH and Batista.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Finger Poke of Doom did not ruin WCW...just because a biased revisionist history WWE produced DVD claims that it did doesn't mean that it is true. Search on YouTube "Finger Poke of Doom DID NOT KILL WCW". The Jay Leno match at Road Wild 1998 also didn't do anything to hurt WCW either regardless of how much yourself, myself or anyone else for matter disliked it.

Thanks for that! And Yeah I agree The Finger Poke of Doom was really bad but no worse than The Montreal Screwjob.

As for WCW PPV's I never got them since we had no access to them. What I did get was WCW Nitros every Saturday Night and since RAW was on a Thursday for us. I could watch both shows without tuning one out.

WCW 1998 was ok they could still draw enough interest with their storylines. It all went downhill at 1999, I was watching some old Nitros from that year (mostly late 1999) and I remember those episodes and how much of an incoherent mess the storylines and angles are. 1998 was still ok but I honestly felt 1998 DDP and Goldberg should have been your top two faces heading to 1999. We all knew how over Goldberg was but DDP was awesome that year, sure most of his push was because of his friendship with Bischoff but the guy knew how to connect to the crowd.

Examples:-
From Wrestlemania 29
Team Hell No (Kane and Daniel Bryan) (c) defeated Dolph Ziggler and Big E Langston (with AJ Lee)[25] Tag team match for the WWE Tag Team Championship 06:16 (just 6 minutes!?)

Mark Henry defeated Ryback[24] Singles match 08:02

WM28:-
Big Show defeated Cody Rhodes (c)[39] Singles match for the WWE Intercontinental Championship 05:18

Sheamus defeated Daniel Bryan (c) (with AJ Lee) [37] Singles match for the World Heavyweight Championship 00:18

WM27:-
Kane, Big Show, Santino Marella, and Kofi Kingston defeated The Corre (Wade Barrett, Ezekiel Jackson, Justin Gabriel, and Heath Slater)[46] Eight-man tag team match 01:34[47]

But you only gave WM as examples. The thing about the modern WM's is that there's so much time devoted to the spectacle of the event that undercard matches tend to be cut short. Normally though that's compensated by having their rematches in the next PPV and normally are given more time.

But the other thing though is that when you are the World Champion or headliner you are expected to carry the event, them given the responsibility to be in longer matches is expected.

 

[spaldoni]

I was a big NWA/WCW fan in the 80s and 90s. If you want to go back and watch earlier pay per views, check out Bash 89. A lot of fans consider that one of the greatest wrestling shows ever. It had Flair/Funk, Luger/Steamboat, Sting/Muta, a Wargames match, a fun Varsity Club/Steiner tag match and a 2 ring battle royal. Also look for young talent like Brian Pillman and Sid Vicious. It's a great card with an awesome main event.

 

[ajdb]

Even though it didn't do well financially. I love watching the first Souled Out (1997). Even though I didn't watch wrestling back then, I love how it was billed as an NWO pay-per-view.

I genuinely feels like the NWO are running everything so it feels petty real. I have to think it must have at the time too.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

I was a big NWA/WCW fan in the 80s and 90s. If you want to go back and watch earlier pay per views, check out Bash 89. A lot of fans consider that one of the greatest wrestling shows ever. It had Flair/Funk, Luger/Steamboat, Sting/Muta, a Wargames match, a fun Varsity Club/Steiner tag match and a 2 ring battle royal. Also look for young talent like Brian Pillman and Sid Vicious. It's a great card with an awesome main event.

I'll certainly watch the 88-94 era of WCW too because I was a big fan of Sting when I first discovered him in 2005 through TNA, and before that, the only product I ever knew was the WWF from the attitude era. I had actually watched a few youtube clips of Sting in a surfer sort of gimmick/attire and now that I look back in retrospect, I imagine a John Cenaesque Sting, albeit taller and much more charismatic, with the face paint, the blonde hair, he was so likeable! I believe he had feuded with Mick Foley around those years, as well as Ric Flair. Can't wait to watch.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

But you only gave WM as examples. The thing about the modern WM's is that there's so much time devoted to the spectacle of the event that undercard matches tend to be cut short. Normally though that's compensated by having their rematches in the next PPV and normally are given more time.

But the other thing though is that when you are the World Champion or headliner you are expected to carry the event, them given the responsibility to be in longer matches is expected.

Here. Another example which shows how many minutes are given to the WWE undercard on any ppv.

Survivor series '13
Big E Langston (c) defeated Curtis Axel Singles match for the WWE Intercontinental Championship[12] 5:57

Mark Henry defeated Ryback Singles match 4:48

HIAC '13
Fandango and Summer Rae defeated The Great Khali and Natalya (with Hornswoggle) Mixed tag team match 4:39

Los Matadores (Diego and Fernando) (with El Torito) defeated The Real Americans (Jack Swagger and Antonio Cesaro) (with Zeb Colter) Tag team match[12] 5:34

Big E Langston defeated Dean Ambrose (c) by countout Singles match for the WWE United States Championship[10] 8:43

Battleground
The Real Americans (Jack Swagger and Antonio Cesaro) (with Zeb Colter) defeated Santino Marella and The Great Khali (with Hornswoggle) Tag team match[7] 7:11

Curtis Axel (c) (with Paul Heyman) defeated R-Truth Singles match for the WWE Intercontinental Championship[10] 7:36

This proves that WWE has for a long time been giving us crappy undercard matches at almost every ppv, and only big matches are given a decent time of 15-30 minutes , whether it be Punk and Bryan vs Wyatts from Survivor Series, or CM Punk vs Chris Jericho from Payback. However, in WCW, every cruiserweight title match, or other undercard match you'd see is routinely given a good 15 minutes. It makes me want to wonder how superior WCW product always was.

 

[justtxyank]

I do not mean to disparage or demean the accomplishments of the WCW brand, nor argue about the statistics and ratings war in which WCW had seemingly won until 1998. But judging from this PPV, I was wondering is this really not the year and one of the major reasons resulting in the eventual downfall? Goldberg beats Hennig in a 3 minute 50 second squash, whereas in the WWF, Austin was routinely wrestling 30 minutes, and often gruelling falls count anywhere matches with Mick Foley/Dude Love, The Undertaker and so on. As for the mainstream attention and celebrity/Basketballers involved, it does get you attention, but is it not a sign of desperation to have your brand get noticed AT ANY COST, even at the cost of Jay Leno arm-wrenching Hulk Hogan in the main event of your ppv, which has now become an infamous footage in the Rise and Fall of WCW DVD?

I do agree in 1998 WCW had lots of exciting ppvs and matches, but was the single year which marked the incipient Death of WCW due to excessive involvement of Basketballers/Celebrity in main events, and if I'm not mistaken the fingerpoke of doom happen in 1998 as well?

Curt Hennig had a knee problem that limited what he could do in the ring and that is why he was squashed.

As for Austin regularly wrestling 30 minutes, I think you need to go check the history again. I'm not sure he had a single ppv match that actually went 30.

Internet fans crap on things like Rodman/Malone and Leno, but those were hugely successful and popular story lines. Fans ate that stuff up big time and it drove ratings up and ppv buys up. They were fun stories.

Edit: As for "infamous" in the rise and fall of WCW DVD, who cares? That is a dvd produced by the man who ultimately won the war and has never hesitated to take shots at WCW or bury it or explain why he was the best of all time. Jay Leno, Rodman and Malone did not hurt WCW. It's more fun to blame things like that though then it is to blame a corporate merger and it's definitely not cool for the WWF to admit that they were getting beat by things like that.

Edit 2: Just like WCW was never happy to get beat by wrestling clowns, repo men, tax men, voodoo masters, etc.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Curt Hennig had a knee problem that limited what he could do in the ring and that is why he was squashed.

As for Austin regularly wrestling 30 minutes, I think you need to go check the history again. I'm not sure he had a single ppv match that actually went 30.

I am sorry I overestimated Austin's in-ring time as the WWF champion by 10 minutes, but the matches actually were very long. And the point I was making was every Golderg match to be well under 10 minutes when he defended the WHC, with the exception of DDP/Kevin Nash where the match went for 10-12 minutes. Here's the list of his title defenses as the WWF champion:-

In Your House- Unforgiven '98.
Dude Love defeated Steve Austin (c) by disqualification Singles match for the WWF Championship 18:49

Over the Edge '98.
Steve Austin (c) defeated Dude Love No disqualification falls count anywhere match for the WWF Championship with Vince McMahon as special guest referee and The Undertaker as special enforcer. 22:27

Summerslam '98
Steve Austin (c) defeated The Undertaker Singles match for the WWF Championship 20:50

Breakdown '98
Kane and The Undertaker defeated Stone Cold Steve Austin (c) Triple threat match for the WWF Championship where Undertaker and Kane could not pin each other 22:18

Rock Bottom '98
Stone Cold Steve Austin defeated The Undertaker (with Paul Bearer) Buried Alive match for the right to compete in the 1999 Royal Rumble match 21:33

 

[rinehart]

Bash at the Beach '98 was in July. The Leno/DDP vs. Hogan/Bischoff Road Wild match was in August 1998.

Dennis Rodman had just won 3 straight NBA titles with the Michael Jordan led Chicago Bulls. He was considered a loose canon.

Karl Malone played for the Utah Jazz. Malone had lost to Rodman and the Bulls in the 1997 & 1998 NBA Finals.

If you want to see a good WCW PPV, here 's some ideas:
Starrcade '88, Great American Bash '89, SuperBrawl II, WrestleWar '92, SuperBrawl III, Spring Stampede '94, Slamboree '94, Starrcade '95, Great American Bash '96, Souled Out '98, SuperBrawl VIII and Spring Stampede '99.

 

[justtxyank]

I am sorry I overestimated Austin's in-ring time as the WWF champion by 10 minutes, but the matches actually were very long. And the point I was making was every Golderg match to be well under 10 minutes when he defended the WHC, with the exception of DDP/Kevin Nash where the match went for 10-12 minutes. Here's the list of his title defenses as the WWF champion:-

Well yes, the Goldberg title defenses were incredibly short. He wasn't a strong in ring performer and after they gave him the belt, WCW wasn't sure how to book him. None of the major stars wanted to job to him not to mention Randy Savage was injured and the rest of the stars outside of Hogan were faces. They had issues with the alignment of the main event which was supposed to be what the Fingerpoke fixed.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Goldberg wasnt booked in meaningfull top tier matches on PPV for most of his big first title reign. Hulk Hogan headlined the PPVs in July, Aug, & Sept, GB's first three months as champion. In the two biggest shows he had title defenses, he was a headliner but shared significant build and promotion time with Hogan again (Halloween Havoc, Hogan-Warrior & GB vs DDP) & with Ric Flair's return Starrcade 98 (GB vs Nash & Flair-Bischoff). Fact was, DDP & Nash were the only feuds that were given any major promotion during his reign, all those months as champ and for almost all of it he took a backseat to Hogan, his best feud and match (which he lost) only coming when Hogan took time off.

Dennis Rodman was a multi time All Pro NBA player with Detroit, winning championships with them in the early 90s. Later in his career he cultivated a highly controversial personna, wearing outrageous outfits, multi colored hair, married a Supermodel, in short he was a wrestling like caricature even before he joined WCW. Karl Malone was the anti Rodman, equally (if not more so ) talented but a very quiet, conservative, public image.

Kevin Greene was a multi time All Pro Linebacker & Defensive End, playing mostly for the Rams when they were in Los Angelos. His 160 career sacks are among the highest totals all time in NFL history. Greene made no secret of his appreciation of wrestling, especially when he played for Pittsburgh. There were even articles in the local papers discussing the friendly feud among players on the team who split into two camps during the Hogan-Flair feud (Greene piloted Team Hogan, linebacker LeVon Kirkland lead Team Flair). Flair met several players from Pittsburgh while appearing at annual charity events sponsored by the Post Gazette newspaper (where website columnist Mark Madden was a sports collumnist who also covered wrestling). After befriending some of his fans on the team he arranged for several players to attend a Clash Of Champions TV special held in Vegas (near the site of that year's Super Bowl, which Pittsburgh was playing in). Eric Bischoff thought WCW might get some mainstream media exposure if they promoted the team's attendance and use a player in some capicity (which they did w/ Greene jumping in the ring to save Hogan from a Flair-Giant beatdown). After Hogan turned heel and formed the NWO Greene returned to team with Flair in 1997 tag team match on a PPV held in Charlotte (Greene by then was playing for Charlotte's NFL team). In between he was recruited by Nitro commentator Steve 'Mongo' McMichael (former Starting defensive end for Chicago when they won the 1985 Super Bowl) to help him in his feud with Flair over his wife Deborah. It was supposed to be NFL vs WCW until Flair & Arn Anderson bribed Deborah to convince Mongo to end the feud and join The Horsemen.

As far as WCW PPV events Great American Bash 96 was very good, so was Great American Bash 1989, Starrcade 87, Starrcade 85, Great American Bash 85, Great American Bash 88, Crockett Cup 87.