Slyfox's attempt to give ROH/Danielson another shot.

[RVDgurl]

Shocky, I agree with your main points. ROH is absolutely about the wrestling, but most of the matches are not just thrown together, they do have a basic storyline behind them. The WWE has more storyline then wrestling, but the two promotions are directed towards different audiences. The WWE plays towards the casual wrestling fan while ROH targets the "smark".

I see the similarities between ECW and ROH which is probably a huge reason why I am in love with ROH as much as I am. I don't see ROH trying to become main stream. Many of the guys who work in the ROH offices were employees of ECW when it folded, so I am hoping they have learned from past mistakes.

 

[RVDgurl]

To be fair, the WWE has a weekly television show (well, 3, but for an individual storyline), seen by millions of viewers all over the world, with at least one PPV every month. 3 or 4 months of a WWE feud is anywhere from 15-20 shows for which a feud gets played out, all close together as well. If ROH averages 2 shows a month, 16 shows last 8 months. So, in many ways it is very similar.

ROH usually puts on 6 shows a month, which is a decent amount to run a good storyline without overkill. I understand that the WWE runs many more shows and targets a more diverse audience, so the storylines are going to be more in depth. However, I don't feel that the WWE ever lets a storyline play out. I think that they have some very good concepts but they are usually rushed. Let's use RAW for example. There are usually 5 Mondays and 1 PPV each month. That's 6 shows that can be used to work a storyline. Unforunately, most storylines are ended in that time span instead of really developing the fued.

I don't have a problem with the ROH theory of wrestling promotion. I like the idea. The problem is the guys they have working that concept aren't close to being great wrestlers, despite what so many fans believe. It is possibly to put on great wrestling matches, complete with actual storytelling and psychology without needing all the WWE fanfare. But, so many of ROH guys don't understand that, or don't do it. They think that they have to do a bunch of cool looking moves and chain wrestling etc, to be doing "good wrestling".
The no frills, strictly wrestling approach I have no problem with. They just don't pull it off very well.

I think we have to agree to disagree on this statement. I think a majority of the guys in ROH are better wrestlers than a majority of the guys in the WWE. In all fairness, fans don't get to see what the WWE guys are truly capable of due to all the restrictions. Everytime I watch an ROH, especially if it's a match between wrestlers in a heated fued, I feel like their telling me a story. Storytelling and psychology are all part of ROH, it's just not the focus.

 

[Da Vinci's Nightmare]

Yep. I'm a huge Danielson fan. If you are willing to spend $20, I suggest you get his Best Of DVD from the ROH website. All the matches are great. If you just want to watch on YouTube or whatever, then look up some of his matches against Austin Aries. The two work very well together.

am gona have to go on a massive search seen as a live in UK, and am a little sketchy bout buying things from USA an gettin em shipped over. got stung bad last time.

 

[Slyfox696]

ROH usually puts on 6 shows a month, which is a decent amount to run a good storyline without overkill. I understand that the WWE runs many more shows and targets a more diverse audience, so the storylines are going to be more in depth. However, I don't feel that the WWE ever lets a storyline play out. I think that they have some very good concepts but they are usually rushed. Let's use RAW for example. There are usually 5 Mondays and 1 PPV each month. That's 6 shows that can be used to work a storyline. Unforunately, most storylines are ended in that time span instead of really developing the fued.

Whenever I've looked at the ROH website for upcoming shows, and past results, it always averaged 2 or 3 shows a month. Many storylines are ended in a month, but generally not main-event storylines. Just the midcard storylines, unless there is a good one (like Benoit/MVP).

I think we have to agree to disagree on this statement. I think a majority of the guys in ROH are better wrestlers than a majority of the guys in the WWE.

I disagree. I've yet to see an ROH match that impressed me, even back before I became so cynical and derisive of it.

Just take CM Punk for example. So many people claimed him as the messiah of wrestling during his ROH days and the weeks leading up to his WWE debut. And, he's yet to have a 3 star WWE match, although I do admit I thought that triple threat match last night was a very solid TV bout. That and his match with Burke are really the only ones of any real quality he's had. Hell, even Batista averages a 3 star match a year.

I'd take the current Smackdown locker room over the current ROH one in terms of ability.

Of course, this doesn't include guys like Jushin Liger, Kenta Kobashi, Misawa etc. Obviously those guys are some of the best to have worked ever (or, so I hear about Kenta Kobashi. Haven't seen enough to gauge.)

Storytelling and psychology are all part of ROH, it's just not the focus.

It should be though. That's the point. That's what makes wrestling matches truly great. Do you really think that Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior at WM 7 would have been worth a damn if it wasn't for the phenomenal drama and pageantry? Do you think that it would be considered one of the best matches of Wrestlemania if it wasn't for it's incredible psychology and storytelling? Of course not. Those are the very fundamentals of good professional wrestling. It is what drives great matches.


I know not everyone feels the same, but, if you don't believe me, just list all the matches which are considered "great" by a majority of wrestling fans. And tell me which ones don't have great drama/storytelling/psychology.

 

[Uncle Sam]

To be honest, I always thought of Austin Aries as a better all-around wrestler than Bryan Danielson. Well, better than most people actually. Next to McGuinness, he is probably my favourite ROh wrestler. It's just a shame that when he went into TNA he became a victim of "storytelling" when he got renamed THE Austin Starr and was made to frolic around like a freaking circus clown.

I agree with RVDGurl that psychology is present in ROH, it's just not the focus. Nor should it be. I don't want to see a long staredown, followed by a series of tedious heel/face tactics. I want to see two people wrestle, with just the hint that one is the heel and one is the face. That's how ROH is marketed, or rather, who it is marketed at, the smarks.

Tell me Slyfox, what is your view on the Great Khali?

 

[RVDgurl]

Sly, you realize that we could start our own thread- RVDgurl vs. Slyfox because we will probably never agree on anything. lol.

Whenever I've looked at the ROH website for upcoming shows, and past results, it always averaged 2 or 3 shows a month. Many storylines are ended in a month, but generally not main-event storylines. Just the midcard storylines, unless there is a good one (like Benoit/MVP).

I disagree. I've yet to see an ROH match that impressed me, even back before I became so cynical and derisive of it.

Just take CM Punk for example. So many people claimed him as the messiah of wrestling during his ROH days and the weeks leading up to his WWE debut. And, he's yet to have a 3 star WWE match, although I do admit I thought that triple threat match last night was a very solid TV bout. That and his match with Burke are really the only ones of any real quality he's had. Hell, even Batista averages a 3 star match a year.


It should be though. That's the point. That's what makes wrestling matches truly great. Do you really think that Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior at WM 7 would have been worth a damn if it wasn't for the phenomenal drama and pageantry? Do you think that it would be considered one of the best matches of Wrestlemania if it wasn't for it's incredible psychology and storytelling? Of course not. Those are the very fundamentals of good professional wrestling. It is what drives great matches.


I know not everyone feels the same, but, if you don't believe me, just list all the matches which are considered "great" by a majority of wrestling fans. And tell me which ones don't have great drama/storytelling/psychology.

Anyway, I am not trying to make you an ROH fan. However, you have to realize that your definition of drama is obviously different from mine. Drama for you seems to be very storyline driven. Drama for me is sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to see what amazingly creative move a wrestler is going to use next. None of which is better than the other, it's just a very different way of watching a match.

I still say that ROH uses psychology and builds up storylines. Check out the Homicide v. Steve Corino fued. There was a huge build up which I believe lasted well over a year. But in the end, the focus were the matches. To me, that's what makes wrestling great. I think that in the WWE storylines overshadow the matches themselves instead of complimenting them.

I love that you used CM Punk as an example because he is a great example of how wrestlers are restricted in the WWE. One of ROH huge drawing points is that the wrestlers are free to use more high impact moves and be creative in the ring. There is no comparison between the work Punk did in ROH and what he is doing now with the WWE. I agree with you completely that he has not lived up to his hype- and I firmly believe that's because he is not allowed to.

 

[Slyfox696]

Tell me Slyfox, what is your view on the Great Khali?

Completely underrated and misjudged by the notion that anyone over 6'5 250 pounds must automatically suck. He has a great ring presence, is showing potential to be a good draw, and plays the monster heel very well. Obviously, he's not going to mat wrestle, but he shouldn't have to. It'd be completely unrealistic for him to. He is actually decently mobile for a man of his size, as well as fairly flexible.

Will he be putting on 5 star matches? Of course not. But, he's not as bad as people want to think he is.

Sly, you realize that we could start our own thread- RVDgurl vs. Slyfox because we will probably never agree on anything. lol.

Haha...hmm...well, don't we both agree that Batista sucks?

Anyway, I am not trying to make you an ROH fan. However, you have to realize that your definition of drama is obviously different from mine. Drama for you seems to be very storyline driven. Drama for me is sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to see what amazingly creative move a wrestler is going to use next. None of which is better than the other, it's just a very different way of watching a match.

I understand what you are saying, I just feel it goes against the very fabric and the very fundamentals of what pro wrestling has always been about.

I still say that ROH uses psychology and builds up storylines. Check out the Homicide v. Steve Corino fued. There was a huge build up which I believe lasted well over a year. But in the end, the focus were the matches. To me, that's what makes wrestling great. I think that in the WWE storylines overshadow the matches themselves instead of complimenting them.

May be, but there are still a ton of WWE matches I can watch without knowing a storyline and find to be very very good. I've yet to see an ROH match that I've considered very very good.

I love that you used CM Punk as an example because he is a great example of how wrestlers are restricted in the WWE. One of ROH huge drawing points is that the wrestlers are free to use more high impact moves and be creative in the ring. There is no comparison between the work Punk did in ROH and what he is doing now with the WWE. I agree with you completely that he has not lived up to his hype- and I firmly believe that's because he is not allowed to.

But, doesn't that just prove that CM Punk is not as good, which translates into ROH wrestlers not being as good?

Once CM Punk has to play by the same rules as everyone else in the WWE, his matches are average at best, and don't match up to other wrestlers like Rey or Benoit or even Cena. It may give credence to your theory about restrictions, but I think it gives more credence to my theory about ROH wrestlers not being as good as WWE wrestlers.

Does that make sense?

(awaits the backlash for saying Cena is better than Punk)

 

[RVDgurl]

Haha...hmm...well, don't we both agree that Batista sucks?

Attention all members of WZ- RVDgurl and Slyfox have found something they can agree on!! Yes, my friend, Batista does suck.

May be, but there are still a ton of WWE matches I can watch without knowing a storyline and find to be very very good. I've yet to see an ROH match that I've considered very very good.

This is exactly why we have to agree to disagree. Simply because I have trouble watching a WWE match unless I am a huge fan of one of the wrestlers or I am into the storyline, which doesn't happen often. I would channel surf during a match between Snitsky, for example. The only WWE program I watch now is RAW. And honestly, there are only a few guys on the brand that I am really into. That is in complete contrast with ROH where I can watch any match and be completely absorbed in it.

But, doesn't that just prove that CM Punk is not as good, which translates into ROH wrestlers not being as good?
Once CM Punk has to play by the same rules as everyone else in the WWE, his matches are average at best, and don't match up to other wrestlers like Rey or Benoit or even Cena. It may give credence to your theory about restrictions, but I think it gives more credence to my theory about ROH wrestlers not being as good as WWE wrestlers.

Does that make sense?

(awaits the backlash for saying Cena is better than Punk)

I fully understand the point you're making but I view it differently. Just because you are employed by Vince McMahon doesn't mean that you are a good wrestler. I think Rey and Benoit are some of the few guys that could still perform at a stellar level in the WWE. With that being said, I think both Rey and Benoit had better matches when they were in ECW simply because they could use a wider aray of moves as the wrestlers in ROH are able to do. I think Punk has put on some solid matches in the WWE, especially against Burke, but most of his high impact moves are banned by the WWE so he can't accentuate his positives. It's very difficult to move backwards and still be as successful.