Should the Crossface be banned?

[relik]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to use the move. We know all the arguments about using or not using it, seeing as how everyone has pretty much everything on that subject matter. WWE is obviously going to never acknowledge Benoit by name, but I can't think of a better way to help move past the situation than letting another over star use his signature move to help move forward. Because that's all it is, a wrestling move. The point is to not forget past, just don't let it control the future.

 

[klunderbunker]

I have no problem with someone using it, as long as it's not linked to him. It's not like he was the only person ever to use it. Brent Albright and Nick Dinsmore used it on the indy circuit before last June, and I heard MVP did as well. It's a devastating looking hold and a damn good wrestling move. Some people may claim that it was also used to kill innocent people, and while this is true, it's not like things like chokes, punches, kicks, and various other things like that have been used uncountable times in fights and killings, just without the high profile nature. Yes, what that move was used for was tragic, but time has passed, and it's hardly like a commentator is going to start screaming about Benoit when he uses it. When I saw HHH first use it, the whole place went silent. Since then, it's become more of just another move. It shouldn't be banned, but it does need to be used carefully.

 

[chance]

Has any other wrestler ever been convicted of murder? Did his finishing move, or one of his signature moves, live on? I think that would be a good place to start. I honestly can't think of any other murdering wrestlers off of the top of my head, so if anyone knows of any...

I don't have a problem with the crossface. I always liked it because it looked genuinely painful. Sure, it may be in a negative light because it was Benoit's, but banning a fake move in a fake sport because of a reason other than "it's too dangerous" seems a little stupid to me. Hell, think of the heat you can generate by using a "killer" move (although, as pointed out above, there is absolutely NO evidence that the crossface was used in any way in the murders).

yes, hardbody harrson is serving a life sentance for murder.


But, id say no, it shouldn't be banned. Facts are no matter how much Vince Mcmahon tries to peretend Benoit never existed, it doesn't change facts. It is a great wrestling move. Also, there is no evidence of any kind that it was the crossface that Chris benoit used to kill his son. I do think that it works better for HBK because it gives him something other then scm to work with. It should never be used as a generic wrestling move. HBK should beat jericho wiith it to give it some credibility.

 

[juanb0715]

No, the crossface definitely should not be banned. Ever since the Benoit tragedy WWE has not mentioned his name and has forgotten about it and moved on. Dean Malenko originally came up with the crossface but Benoit made it famous. Shawn Michaels and Triple H both have used it but when they applied it the commentators just called it a submission maneuver. Not calling it by its real name degrades the move. They don't have to call it the crippler crossface because this was just the name it was given when Benoit applied it. The least they can do when the move is applied is simply call it the crossface. At Survivor Series 2007 when Shawn Michaels put Randy Orton in an Angle Lock, Jim Ross actually called it the Angle Lock and not just a submission maneuver. The crossface deserves the same kind of respect.

 

[jerichoholic33]

Mighty NorCal, I quite agree with you.



This is so true; if it is seen by the public to be HHH's submission move, then people will associate it less with Benoit, and this will continue the policy the WWE have used so far to completely wipe the memory of Benoit from the crowd. It is, lets face it, a good submission move and people like to see it.

It doesn't matter who you are, if you were around to see benoit use the move, whenever another wrestler will use the move you will always think of Benoit. You will never forget what happened last year.

If the wwe wanted people to forget about benoit dont you think they would not use his move?

The crossface should not be banned, but it should not be used for a very long long time. Maybe until the next generation of wrestling fans come.

 

[KingMamoo709]

What I'm about to say may have already been said. If so, forgive me. I hope it has, because I don't want to be the only person thinking this.


The talk of banning the crossface is outright stupid. You might as well ban the SSP because Brock Lesnar nearly broke his neck at WMXIX. You should probably ban Gregory Helms' vertebreaker, because it's dangerous, and could possibly break necks. Hell, why not ban the german suplex? While you're at it, get rid of Cena's FU (he called it that during his short-lived feud with lesnar six years ago), because no one likes Lesnar anymore.

Why ban a move because it's linked to a certain wrestler carrying negative stigma? You shouldn't.

As someone pointed out a couple of posts up, use the move. Just don't acknowledge who made it famous. Don't talk about who created it for another couple of years. It still is a little too fresh in most people's minds, I would assume.

But to talk about outright banning it because of one wrestler?

DUMB.
STUPID.

 

[chance]

What I'm about to say may have already been said. If so, forgive me. I hope it has, because I don't want to be the only person thinking this.


The talk of banning the crossface is outright stupid. You might as well ban the SSP because Brock Lesnar nearly broke his neck at WMXIX. You should probably ban Gregory Helms' vertebreaker, because it's dangerous, and could possibly break necks. Hell, why not ban the german suplex? While you're at it, get rid of Cena's FU (he called it that during his short-lived feud with lesnar six years ago), because no one likes Lesnar anymore.

Why ban a move because it's linked to a certain wrestler carrying negative stigma? You shouldn't.

As someone pointed out a couple of posts up, use the move. Just don't acknowledge who made it famous. Don't talk about who created it for another couple of years. It still is a little too fresh in most people's minds, I would assume.

But to talk about outright banning it because of one wrestler?

DUMB.
STUPID.

First off, to get you caught up they did actually ban the ssp it was apparently brought back thogh, since they allowed matt sydal to use it. Secondly, it is still the fu. That never changed. Personally, id say acknowledgeing the fact that it was Benoit's move is a step in the right direction. It is ridiculous to have blanks wherever Chris Benoit's name should be. They are not fooling anyone in anyway. Like someone else said, the mandible claw killed someone. The only difference is there is there is absoulutely no evidence that Chris benoit used the crossface to kill his son.

 

[Crippler4ever]

Benoit was a darn fine technical wrestler and a rare breed man. So for HHH and Michaels to use the move was disgusting! Neither one of them are even the slightest a submission wrestler and they did the move out of blue for a rest hold!? Only way i see somebody using the move is if they actually have real wrestling talent and it fits them as a wrestler to do the crossface. Like if Samoa Joe does it or even CM Punk! But 99.9 % of the WWE roster is pathetic and the move should not even be used because it is a slap in the face to Benoit.

 

[GW Emperor]

I totally agree with your argument Crippler4ever.
What also annoys me is the fact that Triple H and Shawn Micheals are not using the Crippler Crossface as a finnisher, but instead as a non finnishing move, therefore making the move look weaker.
Like you said the majority of the WWE roster are a joke, who can bearly wrestle, and I find it disgraceful that the very boring, predictable and average at best wrestler Triple H can somehow be awarded a world title 12 times, this compared to a brilliant wrestler like Chris Benoit who only was world champion in WWE once.
If WWE were a real, non fixed sport, the majority of title changes over the past 10 years would have been between Benoit and Angle. Triple H would never have came close to a title shot.

 

[Agrex]

In no way should the crossface be banned. That would be WWE trying to erase Benoit from history. What does Benoit's finisher manoeuvre have anything to do with his tragic passing? Nothing. Just because Benoit used a choke hold, it doesn't mean he used the "cripple crossface". That would definitely not be a good thing for the WWE to do.

As for Triple H, and Shawn Michaels using that move, I think they shouldn't. They degrade the move. The move was used as a finisher by Chris Benoit, but HHH and HBK use it as a "rest hold". I think they could do wonders with that move if they give it to a young star for their finisher.

So in conclusion, no the WWE shouldn't ban the move. And HHH and HBK should hold off on using it.

 

[TheRealLionheart089]

Maybe the WWE should just ask Chris Beniots parents if its ok to use the move. If they say 'no,' then dont use it. But if they say its 'ok,' then let it be used again...probably by someone like CM Punk or Cody Rhodes, someone who needs a submisson finisher.



Its just that simple.

 

[Agrex]

Maybe the WWE should just ask Chris Beniots parents if its ok to use the move. If they say 'no,' then dont use it. But if they say its 'ok,' then let it be used again...probably by someone like CM Punk or Cody Rhodes, someone who needs a submisson finisher.



Its just that simple.

That's very stupid. What do Benoit's parents have to do with that move. Absolutely nothing. Obviously they'll say no, because they probably don't care about the business as much. The move wasn't even invented by him, but by Dean Malenko. So if anything they should ask Malenko, but that makes no sense as does asking the parents. In my opinion, they should give that move to a young talent, no questions asked.

 

[WrestlingDude]

Why not? Its just a submission hold. People are going to compare teh crossface to Chris Benoit for now on just bc he made it famous? He didnt even invent it!

I say if they wanna use it in their arsonal, let them. Despite being connected to Benoit, it is still a submission hold free for anybody to use. I don't think it should be banned, especially if it's effective and doesnt seriously hurt the opponent.

And btw, it was said that Chris Benoit smothered his wife and son with a pillow, he did not use a chokehold similar to the crossface to kill them.

 

[Danmen001]

Some are arguing (as I am) that the move should not be used as it was the signature hold of a man who murdered his family a year ago.

Why do people keep saying this. It is a wrestling move, it is not something that can't be used because someone who was popular did something that he shouldnt have.

Others are arguing that it should be used, as there is no conclusive evidence that this was the method Benoit used to kill his son.

He was killed by being smothered by a pillow.

I assume that these people would condemn the use of the crossface had there been conclusive evidence then? (For the record, I do not believe this is how Daniel was killed.)

Then why are you arguing for the move to be banned if you believe that he wasn't killed via the crossface. Which he wasn't.

Some people are putting forward the frankly ridiculous argument that it’s fine to use the move, as it was a hold devised by Dean Malenko. To use another analogy where I put a different wrestler in the Benoit situation, are you honestly telling me that if Steve Austin had committed the crimes, and HHH was nailing people with Stone Cold Stunners right now, you would think it was acceptable because ‘Michael Hayes came up with that one’?

Well for starters, I personally don't use that argument. But no I wouldn't have a problem with that. Why, because it's a wrestling move. Also HHH wouldn't be using that move and Steve would never do that so your analogy is a tad strange.

And the best one of all…HHH and Shawn Michaels are spitting in the face of the great Chris Benoit for using his move! That is the worst example of mark-dom that I have ever seen.

This is the thing that annoys me the most about your post. They are not spitting in his face. They are not using it to be disrespectful, and if you believe that then you are a fool. They are using it to bring back the move, and make people confortable with it. They are trying to use it in a way that will make people confortable again.

 

[chance]

There seems to be a number of different debates going on here, all loosely connected.

Some are arguing (as I am) that the move should not be used as it was the signature hold of a man who murdered his family a year ago.

Others are arguing that it should be used, as there is no conclusive evidence that this was the method Benoit used to kill his son. I assume that these people would condemn the use of the crossface had there been conclusive evidence then? (For the record, I do not believe this is how Daniel was killed.)

Some people are putting forward the frankly ridiculous argument that it’s fine to use the move, as it was a hold devised by Dean Malenko. To use another analogy where I put a different wrestler in the Benoit situation, are you honestly telling me that if Steve Austin had committed the crimes, and HHH was nailing people with Stone Cold Stunners right now, you would think it was acceptable because ‘Michael Hayes came up with that one’?

And the best one of all…HHH and Shawn Michaels are spitting in the face of the great Chris Benoit for using his move! That is the worst example of mark-dom that I have ever seen.

To, the firsrt point, i hear what your saying but it it is bull crap. Yes, benoit killed his wife and son. But, even with that being said, there is no reason why that should make it banned. He didn't kill his son with a crossface.

If you don't think that is how it happened, why do you want it banned. Yes, if there was proof that is how it happened then it should be. but, until then it should continue to be used.

I agree it was indeed Benoit's move. It should not be banned. However, that is a bad point.

Shawn michaels using that move is no problem. but, if he uses it it should be a finisher.

 

[chrisgod]

I think the whole problem for some people is HHH using the move...

If it was only Michaels using it that would be "ahhh he is trying to pay tribute to that great career benoit had before going nuts, and he is really good at performing it... he should change that stupid and unimpressive superkick to this one..."

Then H uses it and all it comes to "Again fucking triple H... he is tarnishing Benoit's legacy... he used his backstage politics to return this move from the graveyard and applies it so bad that it looks weaker every time"

I think the should be used regulary for more and more wrestlers until some youngster gets it as his finisher and give it a gimmick related name, then people will start associating the move with someone else and we can move on about Benoit.

 

[wzkevinm]

Why do people keep saying this. It is a wrestling move, it is not something that can't be used because someone who was popular did something that he shouldnt have.



He was killed by being smothered by a pillow.



Then why are you arguing for the move to be banned if you believe that he wasn't killed via the crossface. Which he wasn't.



Well for starters, I personally don't use that argument. But no I wouldn't have a problem with that. Why, because it's a wrestling move. Also HHH wouldn't be using that move and Steve would never do that so your analogy is a tad strange.



This is the thing that annoys me the most about your post. They are not spitting in his face. They are not using it to be disrespectful, and if you believe that then you are a fool. They are using it to bring back the move, and make people confortable with it. They are trying to use it in a way that will make people confortable again.

If you'd paid attention to his post, you would've seen that he was laying out the four arguments that have been talked about in this post. While he only believes the first one, he's saying that OTHER people are making that fourth argument, which they are. You guys actually agree on this point!

 

[Peasrock1234]

Hell no should the cross face be banned! It should be a reminder about what those drugs can do to the other wreaslers and if you are going to banned it what are you trying to prove that chris beniot doesnt exsit? That he wasnt a WCW champ or a WWE champ or even a 2004 royal rumble winner? and plus he was even about to win the ECW championship

 

[Danmen001]

If you'd paid attention to his post, you would've seen that he was laying out the four arguments that have been talked about in this post. While he only believes the first one, he's saying that OTHER people are making that fourth argument, which they are. You guys actually agree on this point!

Ok, looking back yes you're right lol. I was mainly pissed about the points he put in his post. But other than that I was making counterpoints as to why I think what I do think. I am prepared to admit I misinterpreted the fact he put it in his post, and thought he believe those things.

Making my points again and counterpoints again.

It was his signature hold: It doesn't matter if it was his signature hold, it is a wrestling move. It's a wrestling move that people love to see, why ban it just because of that.

He wasn't killled by the crossface: While I wasn't particularly arguing that, it's true. So why, just because it was his move cant we use the move.

It wasn't his move: I don't think this argument has relevance.

Bringing back the move: HHH and HBK using the move solified they are trying to bring back a move people have been 'affraid' of so to speak. THey are trying to help people get over the move, they are not trying to make fun of Benoit. Anyone who suggests so, the fact they do that is beyond me.

 

[JohnnyWrestledude]

Good to see you're a forensics expert and know what would or wouldn't kill a person. I thought before that a suffocation maneuver on a small boy would've been enough to kill him but, now that you've assured me it couldn't do anything to hurt you, I'll rest knowing that it wasn't what was used on Daniel. Thanks for your expertise.

Good to see that you've earned your cop of the year badge by determining the C.O.D.of a child in the case you've been investigating. By the way, it would make me a martial arts expert to know a move that would kill a person. Congratulations on solving the case "detective"...what was your name??

The point is that it's a freakin wrestling move and since people on this website and around the world still respect it, HHH and HBK have gotten POPS!not boos for using it, let them do it without shame. Moron..

 

[JohnnyWrestledude]

Sorry, if you are who you say you are... I don't know you even though. I 've been reading your columns as long as you've been on WZ. Why don't they include you in the weekly clumn anymore?? Could it be because you spread untrue news?? Riddle me this Batman!!

 

[wzkevinm]

Sorry, if you are who you say you are... I don't know you even though. I 've been reading your columns as long as you've been on WZ. Why don't they include you in the weekly clumn anymore?? Could it be because you spread untrue news?? Riddle me this Batman!!

This is really Kevin. If someone were pretending to be me they'd be about the lamest person on the planet!

Anyway, don't take it so personally. I was simply saying that it was possible that the Crossface could've killed Daniel. None of us know. And, just because you think that a move could never kill you doesn't mean it couldn't seriously harm a young boy. The point is, whether or not the move killed Daniel is only a small piece of the argument anyway. Plenty of people want to see it used and a few (like me) kind of feel a little sick whenever we see it. It's a matter of opinion.

 

[TNAw00t]

I was reading "Offbeat Shenanigans" by Kevin McElvaney. One of the topics was the Crippler Crossface. HHH used it in a match with Cena and Mr. McElvaney was disgusted at it.

Yes, Chris Benoit was the person who popularized the move and he was the same person who killed his wife and son (using a chokehold similar to that of the crossface).

Should the Crippler Crossface be banned from wrestling?

I was a huge Benoit fan. When the news of his offence came up, I was shocked as hell. But I'm over it. Right now, I just don't care about what happened a year ago. And since I'm over that tragedy, I no longer associate the Crossface with Chris Benoit. Now, to me, it's just a wrestling move.

Back in Survivor Series, HBK used the move. At night of Champions, so did HHH. In my opinion, the re-application of the crossface, IMO, shows that WWE has forgotten the Benoit incident.

So, what do you guys think?

1) Never use the crossface again, or
2) use the corssface, get over the Benoit incident and move on?

first off, the WWE deffinentally havent forgotten. if you look on wwe.com and go to royal rumble, then go to past rumble winners, it shows 2003 where brock lesnar won it, but it skips 2004 where chris won and goes on to 2005 where batista won it. i think they should use it more, and make someone actually tap out to it. nobody in the WWE has a finisher where u tap out except the daughter of the hart guy (i think)

 

[image1986]

Of course it shouldn't be band that's like saying lets ban the sharpshooter because of the montrel screw job. Of course the event wasn't as serious as murder but still associated with one wrestler. People are such hipocrites because no one knows why he did it or what cause it to happen. Chris benoit was a great wrestler but that doesn't make him less human than anyone else. No one can forget what happen but to judge the man so harshly and wipe him from existense is just as bad. The crossface was popularize but him but he doesn't own the move. Using the move doesn't glorify what he did cuz it has nothing to do with it. If a person can't handle seeing the move don't watch wrestling. The family of the victim of nancy and benoits son may be upset about it but what about the family of benoit who see their sons life being erased like he was worth nothing. Even if u don't ban the crossface cuz of benoit a better reason is to show that people moved on and can perform a move used by a great performer.

 

[sikeston1213]

I tihnk Trips using the crossface is okay. Why think of it as remembering a man who killed his family? Everyone knows it was wrong, and that will never change. Why not think of it as celebrating the great career of Benoit? Why not see it as paying tribute to one of the greatest wrestlers of all time?

I know terrible things happened, but we can't change the past. Theres no excuse for what he did. But when I see that move and here the pop, it reminds me of when Benoit used that move to win the belt/belts that he won. I always see it as a tribute to the wrestler Benoit, not the man he was that day.