Should the Crossface be banned?

[huwtimbrell38]

personally i dont like hhh as a wrestler anymore because he seems to have become stale, but him using the crossface cud just be seen as him adding a new move set to his collection...which is a good thing, with all the shake ups in the wwe we are having atm it is good to see wrestlers adding new moves
when i see the cross face yes i do think of benoit...i think of him making countless people tap out, winning the WHC with that move...then celebrating that victory with eddie guerrero who died partly because of his drug use...
one move set i disagree with is chavos use of the "3 amigos" which is used just to garner cheap heat because of his uncles death...if he was a face and people were popping for the move in memory of his career then it wud be different...and if hhh is using it to celebrate Benoits career then that is great because he is a face, and therefore it is being used in a possitive manner...
so in summary for me, in the case that HHH is using it to freshen up his moveset with a good submission maneuver, or to commemorate benoit, then yes go ahead and use these moves,
but as a heel please dont use these moves to garner cheap heat as that is just disrespectful

 

[Codebreaker Y2J]

Maybe coz I was a big Chris Benoit fan and remember him for the great wrestler he was may influence my opinion but here it is anyway. the crossface shouldn't be banned just coz of the Benoit incident. As far as I'm concerned it had nothing to do with the murders. And if it was used by Benoit to kill his wife and son, what has it got to do with Triple H using it? It's not like he tried to kill Cena with it. so, Big deal, get over it... thats just my personal opinion on this topic.

 

[GW Emperor]

I totally agree with BigShowEatsPizza that it isnt right that WWE eliminated Chris Benoit's history, in the form that you cannot find any info on him on the WWE website.
Benoit was one of the greatest wrestlers of all time and he was also a good person. It was the severe brain damage which the man had combined with the overload of steroids which made him murder his family and then commit suicide. Due to how badly damaged his brain was it is very likely that the man was not himself, but instead a total different person.
It annoys me how people hate and call him for what he did even when his brain was so badly damaged. Just wait untill some of these individuals end up becoming senile or get alzeimers disease within old age, and then they will know what I am talking about.
Once the brain becomes messed up, either via damage, diseases, old age etc, then an individual is capable of anything.

In my opinion the crippler crossface should go on in wrestling as a tribute to the great wrestler Chris Benoit, but it should only go on as a finnishing move as it were intended to be. I don't like it how Triple H and Shawn Micheals are using the move as a non-finnisher as it is making the move look weaker.

 

[Ad!]

I agree with Jake. Make it somebody else's move. A bigger star or an up and comer.
Doing it on the anniversary was pretty distasteful, But I'm only annoyed because Triple H won't use it as a consistent move, he'll just use it to get a reaction in one match where it wasn't even necessary.

I'm not sure if WWE would authorize it to be a Wrestler's new move though... But why not if they will for one match?

 

[phat_inallthegoodplaces]

i don't think it should be discontinued, like retiring a number in any other sport. the crossface, albeit benoit's finisher, is more a generic move. i think that as long as no one uses it and calls it a "crippler" crossface, then it's fine.
i think that, if anything, moves that are too unique should be retired after a wrestler retires or dies. moves like the pedigree are never used by any other wrestler except HHH, so obviously don't use it after he goes. the 619 is solely rey mysterio's so that goes with him as well. the chokeslam is more commonly tagged to kane and the undertaker and a few others, but since it is used by more than just one person, you wouldn't retire that move. the f-5 went with brock lesnar. that actually makes me sad, because cena came up with the FU as a spoof of the f-5, but since lesnar left, it would've been nice to see cena start making his FU more like the f-5 so it would look like the FU actually hurt.


*something i just realized was that the moves i offered for example were all some sort of grapple, and not a submission, so i may have to change my argument. so if the statement up there bothers anyone, make note that i caught it too.

 

[jokeboy624]

Before I get to the point of the thread, there are a couple of things that have bothered me in this thread or any thread that you read about the Benoit murders-suicide. First off, that's what it was, murders-suicide, it wasn't an incident or an accident. It shouldn't be down-played because we as a society are too squeamish to acknowledge what happened. Secondly, stop comparing what Benoit did to Hugh Grant picking up a prostitute, that could be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing comparable to murder, OJ...fine, Michael Vick...ok, I can see it, but Hugh Grant come on. Soon people are going to say what Benoit did compares to Billy Joel driving into a tree drunk. Just for the record, drunk driving is stupid, but Billy Joel didn't kill anyone.

As far as the topic goes, I don't think the move should be banned. When I saw the move at NOC, I did mark out, but not because of Benoit, because of the move. I like the crossface as a wrestling maneuver, it's easy and simple while still being effective as hell. Part of the reason I marked out so hard was that you don't see it anymore and so when it's used my reaction is usually, "Holy Shit, I haven't seen that in forever, how's (insert wrestler) going to get out of it?" It would be great to see someone use it more often, but then the move might not garner the same reaction. Either way, the move is undeniably tied to Chris Benoit but the legacy of the move shouldn't be tied only to Benoit, why not try to pull it in a different direction and have people associate it with someone else? As Kevin said in his article, it is a logical counter to the STFU, give it to someone Cena is feuding with and have it go from there. Long story short, it shouldn't be banned but repackaged.

 

[twisterwrw929]

I think this would have been a bigger deal if Triple H, or anyone else used this move for the first time since he died at NOC. If no one had seen the move since Benoit passed, then all of a sudden a year later someone does it, it may be a little unnecessary then. But it has been used plenty of times since November, so I think it's alright now. Although everytime I do see the move, the first person I think of is Benoit, like I'm sure most do.

I think that if they're going to use the move, it should be given to one person to use, preferably someone who could use it as a finisher, it doesn't make any sense for Triple H to continue using the move, or anybody else, just let one midcard guy who needs a new finisher or could use a submission use it. I believe that the move could possibly become overused if this keeps happening, like at Backlash (at least I think it was backlash) when the Big Show, Michaels, and Triple H all used the crossface.

 

[Afro-Ameri-Spawn]

The thing is that it was never PROVEN that Benoit used the Crossface to kill his son. It was assumed because that is the move that he made popular. Benoit could have used the standard triangle choke, such as the one used by Samoa Joe and often used as the sleeper. And while it is tragic that a man killed his family, HE'S NOT EVEN THE ONE WHO INVENTED THE HOLD!

It's about time that the WWE stopped just letting Triple H use it, as it really mocks the fact that most choke type holds have been banned when you let the man making whoopie with the bosses daughter use it exclusively. The move should be a finisher for an up and coming shoot type wrestler or even given to CM Punk to replace the Anaconda Vice. It would help to legitimize the wrestler using it somewhat as it is a move that can be transitioned into with great ease and thusly look pretty dangerous.

So my vote is for letting it be used openly as right now, it's use is mocking more than downplaying why is was banned in the first place.

 

[tha_icon85]

I agree let it be a u and comers finisher, like MVP. beniot had a great but short influence on mvp so give it to him his finisher sucks anyways so why not it make sense to me a great moves, for an highly seen superstar. it would give him credit as a serious technician and build his star up. which is what any star beniot included would want.
ps chavo using the 3 amigos is in tribute to his uncle and we dnt have the right to say he can't pay homage to someone he looked up to just cuz he's "a heel"

 

[Danmen001]

The thing is that it was never PROVEN that Benoit used the Crossface to kill his son. It was assumed because that is the move that he made popular. Benoit could have used the standard triangle choke, such as the one used by Samoa Joe and often used as the sleeper. And while it is tragic that a man killed his family, HE'S NOT EVEN THE ONE WHO INVENTED THE HOLD!

I have to agree with this %100.

It's about time that the WWE stopped just letting Triple H use it, as it really mocks the fact that most choke type holds have been banned when you let the man making whoopie with the bosses daughter use it exclusively. The move should be a finisher for an up and coming shoot type wrestler or even given to CM Punk to replace the Anaconda Vice. It would help to legitimize the wrestler using it somewhat as it is a move that can be transitioned into with great ease and thusly look pretty dangerous.

Now i really don't see why people keep saying things like this. "Triple H shouldn't be using the move, the be the only one basically to use it." It's not mocking anything, they are using someone who is respected enough to be able to get away with using the move without being legitimately hated and seen as disrespectful for using the move. I don't see any reason to be shooting Triple H for using the move. He is using it to help people get over it, he is using it to start saying to people 'It's just a move'. What I do agree with though is start letting others use it, althought I can think of reasoning not to let younger stars use it so soon. Simple really, if a young star started using it sooner than someone respected can you imagine the uproar? I mean people are currently killing HHH for using the move, imagine if a younger star did it.

It's just a move. Benoit didn't invent it. He just popularized it. Somebody should start using it. Frequently. They should have it as their finishing move. It should be a big name star. Somebody who is a bigger star than Benoit. Over time it'll become that wrestlers move.

What I don't agree with is the likes of HBK & HHH using it purely to gain cheap heat.

I agree with someone should start using it now, but see above and my argument aginst so soon if you want to see a decent countrt to that statement. I am going to say it once again, HBK and HHH are not using it to gain cheap heat. They are trying to bring back a wrestling move.

 

[wzkevinm]

I agree let it be a u and comers finisher, like MVP. beniot had a great but short influence on mvp so give it to him his finisher sucks anyways so why not it make sense to me a great moves, for an highly seen superstar. it would give him credit as a serious technician and build his star up. which is what any star beniot included would want.
ps chavo using the 3 amigos is in tribute to his uncle and we dnt have the right to say he can't pay homage to someone he looked up to just cuz he's "a heel"

MVP is about the only guy I could see using it because it was his finisher in the indies.

 

[WesternRebel]

First of all, we don't know that it was the crossface that was used on Daniel. The crossface is a wrestling move, to be used on a wrestling show. Its no different than any other move. DLO Brown paralyzed Droz with a powerbomb. Should they stop using the powerbomb? People get kicked in the head and are killed. No more Sweet Chin Music? Yes, what happened last year was awful, but we need to move on. All of us. Nobody is doing the move in honor of Chris Benoit. Theyre doing it because it's a wrestling move. End of story.

 

[kiriyama]

Agreed, Danmen. They aren't mocking the move, just trying to make it usable again. The crowd is still kinda cross over it about the Benoit tragedy. Trips and Michaels are just trying to reclaim a move that should have never been lost.

IMO, seeing as they don't want any mentioning of Benoit, why not credit Dean Malenko when the move is applied... he created it FFS. It's kinda like the Lou Thesz press, Stone Cold made it real popular during my generation, but we all know who really created it right?

I say they shouldn't ban the Crossface, use it. After it's acceptable again, give it to a fresh face... it should be used as a finisher, not just a generic maneuver.

 

[healyz84]

Of course this move should not be banned, that is abolutely ridiculous. Benoit was the most famous user of the crossface, but he didn't even invent the move, Malenko did. The crossface is just a move, plain and simple. Its the fans that marked out so much to its brutality. The crossface to me is as elementary a move as the camel clutch. All your doing is creating a bit of torque to the opponents neck to move it back(which it does normally anyway). The arm itself is just held in position, its not even needed. Half the time Benoit would not even use the arm at all. It only looked like such a brutal hold because he was so doped up on steroids. HHH and HBK needed to do the crossface to show the fans and the rest of the rosters that its just a move like everything else and should be done. Those were 2 of the only people(aside from Taker) who could have done the move without any backlash. Im glad they did it and I hope to see more wrestlers use it in the future.

 

[JohnnyWrestledude]

First off who the Hell is Mckelvaney to judge anything about a wrestling move's place on a wrestling show?? Did someone make him the "authority" on morality in wrestling?? As many have said before "It's just a move" "Invented by Malenko" "Get over it".. Exactly!

Second, can anyone actually see benoit using that move to kill anyone? Let alone his child. It's not exactly an effective move. Can't remember who said it in this thread but I agree, he likely used a standard rear naked choke to kill Daniel. The crossface when applied is done over the face, hence the name. I've been in many wrestling holds in my life and if there's one that wouldn't probably kill me, it would have to be the crossface..

Come on people, just enjoy how HHH and HBK, and whomever else would like to use it. It's got a black mark on it obviously, but I don't think it takes a brain surgeon to figure out that people will forget about Benoit soon enough.

Remember when there was a joke about Steve Irwin on South Park shortly after his death? Should we condemn hollywood writers too?

 

[wzkevinm]

First off who the Hell is Mckelvaney to judge anything about a wrestling move's place on a wrestling show?? Did someone make him the "authority" on morality in wrestling?? As many have said before "It's just a move" "Invented by Malenko" "Get over it".. Exactly!

Second, can anyone actually see benoit using that move to kill anyone? Let alone his child. It's not exactly an effective move. Can't remember who said it in this thread but I agree, he likely used a standard rear naked choke to kill Daniel. The crossface when applied is done over the face, hence the name. I've been in many wrestling holds in my life and if there's one that wouldn't probably kill me, it would have to be the crossface..

Come on people, just enjoy how HHH and HBK, and whomever else would like to use it. It's got a black mark on it obviously, but I don't think it takes a brain surgeon to figure out that people will forget about Benoit soon enough.

Remember when there was a joke about Steve Irwin on South Park shortly after his death? Should we condemn hollywood writers too?

Good to see you're a forensics expert and know what would or wouldn't kill a person. I thought before that a suffocation maneuver on a small boy would've been enough to kill him but, now that you've assured me it couldn't do anything to hurt you, I'll rest knowing that it wasn't what was used on Daniel. Thanks for your expertise.

 

[GW Emperor]

Where are people getting this idea from that Benoit murdered his son with a crippler crossface? No reports have suggested this and it is only in these forums that I have heard such a thing mentioned. All that is known is that he strangled his wife and suffocated his son. In my opinion it would be pretty difficult to suffocate someone to death with a crippler crossface.

 

[ROHDude]

Plain and simple, Benoit didn't invent the crossface. The move has been around before Benoit and it should simply stick around after Benoit. Besides he never killed his son with the crossface. It's a joke people.

Honestly when is the wrestling world gonna move on and just forget about Benoit.

Well I dont mean to come off as a psychopath, but Chris Benoit was one of my favorite wrestlers, and what he did really didn't change my opinion of him. He still was an amazing performer in my memory. I didnt personally know him, and the character that I associated with him my entire life was a crazy, murderous psycho.

Of course it was horrible what he did, but I'm not gonna let it ruin my time for no reason


and as for banning the cross-face, Its a wrestling move, I don't understand why it needs to be banned because of what one guy did

I agree with you. I knew Benoit, the wrestler, not the man, and of course I know what he did was terrible, but I haven't let that ruined my time or what I think of him as a performer. Hell I don't even think about Benoit anymore, because I've moved on. It really isn't that hard to just forget, and he was one of my favorite wrestlers. Why can't the rest of you just forget about it?

 

[patsbrain]

Has any other wrestler ever been convicted of murder? Did his finishing move, or one of his signature moves, live on? I think that would be a good place to start. I honestly can't think of any other murdering wrestlers off of the top of my head, so if anyone knows of any...

I don't have a problem with the crossface. I always liked it because it looked genuinely painful. Sure, it may be in a negative light because it was Benoit's, but banning a fake move in a fake sport because of a reason other than "it's too dangerous" seems a little stupid to me. Hell, think of the heat you can generate by using a "killer" move (although, as pointed out above, there is absolutely NO evidence that the crossface was used in any way in the murders).

 

[GW Emperor]

People will never forget about Benoit as he was one of, if not the greatest professional wrestler of all time. Benoit was also considered to be a very good man, who would help anyone. Once his brain damage reached the extreme however the man was not the same and ended up carrying out a double murder, and suicide.
Benoit is proof that once the brain gets messed up, whether it be by damage, disease, old age etc, that people can undergo transformations that are way out of character.

 

[wzkevinm]

Has any other wrestler ever been convicted of murder? Did his finishing move, or one of his signature moves, live on? I think that would be a good place to start. I honestly can't think of any other murdering wrestlers off of the top of my head, so if anyone knows of any...

I don't have a problem with the crossface. I always liked it because it looked genuinely painful. Sure, it may be in a negative light because it was Benoit's, but banning a fake move in a fake sport because of a reason other than "it's too dangerous" seems a little stupid to me. Hell, think of the heat you can generate by using a "killer" move (although, as pointed out above, there is absolutely NO evidence that the crossface was used in any way in the murders).

Okay, regardless of whether or not the move was actually used, are you honestly suggesting that someone should try to get heat from the death of a young boy? That's pretty disgusting.

 

[patsbrain]

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. Sorry (for you) if you took it that way. I am saying the move will generate heat (look at this discussion) naturally. A heel using it would enhance that heat.

Think of all of the angles that are morally reprehensible that have been used in the past: A drunken LOD/drunken Scott Hall playing up their alcoholism on TV; HHH's necrophilia with Kane's dead girlfriend; Torrie's dad's death; JR's stroke; various drug abuse angles (a few done around the time of Pillman's death); Vickie and Edge; Teddy Long's "heart attack" (which my son STILL thinks is in terrible taste), and the list goes on. Wrestling draws a lot of story lines from real life, and it absolutely loves controversy.

Lastly, I am a single father of a seven-year-old son myself. Don't put words in my mouth when you can simply ask me a question. Please.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Hell the fuck no they shouldnt ban the move. Thats fucking ridiculous. Like many have stated before in this thread, if you will get rid of a move becuase of one indcident, then were do you stop?? If anything, popular wrestlers making it their OWN will get people past it being associated with Benoit.

And seriously, anyone insinuating that Benoit used the move in the murder might be fucking mentally ******ed. Thats about some stupid shit to say. The police report even said that a pillow was used to smother. Seriously, think about what you are saying before you say it.

And yes it draws heat, and I wont even attempt to play it off as "just becuase its a cool move" as others have. People mark for it out of respect for Chris Benoit, The Rabid Wolverine, The pro wrestler. I truly belive this. And if no one else ever claims the move, they will continue to do so. Making it banned will only cause it cheap heat if used at the wrong times, by the wrong folks.

Its obvious they do this in an attempt to move forward, to make people forget Benoit. The more taboo and unusual it is, the more its set apart, in the "we dont go there" section. They should use it, and use it well. Lets move on.

 

[pettj001]

Mighty NorCal, I quite agree with you.

If anything, popular wrestlers making it their OWN will get people past it being associated with Benoit.

This is so true; if it is seen by the public to be HHH's submission move, then people will associate it less with Benoit, and this will continue the policy the WWE have used so far to completely wipe the memory of Benoit from the crowd. It is, lets face it, a good submission move and people like to see it.

 

[wzkevinm]

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. Sorry (for you) if you took it that way. I am saying the move will generate heat (look at this discussion) naturally. A heel using it would enhance that heat.

Think of all of the angles that are morally reprehensible that have been used in the past: A drunken LOD/drunken Scott Hall playing up their alcoholism on TV; HHH's necrophilia with Kane's dead girlfriend; Torrie's dad's death; JR's stroke; various drug abuse angles (a few done around the time of Pillman's death); Vickie and Edge; Teddy Long's "heart attack" (which my son STILL thinks is in terrible taste), and the list goes on. Wrestling draws a lot of story lines from real life, and it absolutely loves controversy.

Lastly, I am a single father of a seven-year-old son myself. Don't put words in my mouth when you can simply ask me a question. Please.

"Hell, think of the heat you can generate by using a "killer" move"

I'm not seeing how I'm putting any words into your mouth...you said everything yourself.

Anyway, I agree with you to an extent about exploitative angles happening in the past. The difference, though, is that there is absolutely no precedent for the Benoit case. Throughout this thread people have tried, time and time again, to compare this situation to others when there's absolutely no situation like it in wrestling history. Teddy Long didn't really have a heart attack. Torrie Wilson's dad didn't really die. Eddie died, but his widow went along with an angle. The stroke and alcoholism angles were disgusting, but I'm not condoning them. Besides, J.R., Hall, and Hawk were all complicit in going along with those angles. Are Nancy and Daniel around to give their consent? Do you think they'd approve?

The majority of people in this thread see the Crossface as simply a move. While I don't agree with that, it's an argument I can accept. Everyone trying to compare a murder-suicide to angles that were NOTHING like what happened with the Benoit family makes zero sense to me.

Thanks patsbrain, for providing the perspective of a father.