Say "Goodbye" to the Bad Guy?

[AlwaysHasBeen]

With the exception of Randy Orton (when he was the Legend Killer), it seems like every heel in the WWE within the last half-decade fits the same cowardly bill: Whiny, complaining, gets their butt kicked every week by the good guy then runs away and demands vengeance in a match at the PPV or the following week whereby their lackeys interfere in the match which hurts their credibility even more, and the mess continues...

Now I know that it is a heel's job in pro wrestling to be annoying and get a cheap win from time to time. But, man, what happened to the days when heels actually could get the job done, and convincingly?

When I think about it, most of pro wrestling's greats in the last two decades (I can only vouch for 1992-onward) have started out as heels (HHH, Austin, Rock (Rock's a minor exception as he was able to use his cheesy Miavia character to fuel his Nation of Domination heel Rock persona, when he REALLY took off), Undertaker, the Macho King, Shawn Michaels (post-Rockers when his “Boy Toy” solo career took off), Diesel, Razor Ramon, Bret Hart (Hart Foundation w/ Jimmy Hart), Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Edge, Christian, and so on and so forth.

Basically every big money-drawing superstar, with the exception of Hogan and Cena- who IMO are only adulated because they were honed and molded into WWF/E posterboys through good marketing and TV time, had started out their careers as the bad guy and gradually worked their way into the hearts of many fans.

What is lacking in the WWE right now (one of many things) are heels who we actually want to pay (or tune in) to see. Heels who we want to see taught a lesson because we passionately despise them,, and not merely because they talk trash about the city they are in or badmouth a face, which is just cheap heat.

What revitalized (lengthened) the careers of those listed above was their successful transitions from heel to face. If Swagger, Miz, Dolph Ziggler, Wade Barrett, or any other heel in the WWE today turned face, they would not generate any further interest in themselves or any career momentum because their stint as heels generated more sympathy than hatred or ambivalent feelings from fans.

Don’t get me wrong and confuse liking the bad guy simply because he’s not a happy-go-lucky face with liking the bad guy because he’s just downright talented and you WANT to boo him…

I'm sure that there is a bigger problem here that I should be getting at (i.e. WWE's creative team making characters/gimmicks bland and homogeneous, the ambiguous manner in which storylines/feuds are put together nowadays, etc.), but I guess what I want to open up for discussion is, does anyone else feel a big void in the longevity and potential of the heel division in the WWE? If so, what’s your reason?

 

[JJYanks121]

Well first off, one of your "exceptions" is like the basis of your rule. Cena was an incredibly hated heel as his thug character and fans adulation for his ability to cut raps is what turned him face. Thus, Cena is exactly what you are talking about and turned face in 2004 for that very reason.

That said, it still does work. See Alex Riley as an example. We all hated him as the douchy assistant to The Miz, but with Miz berating him, we have gained sympathy for Riley and he has become an over face in just a matter or weeks. Miz meanwhile, is the right kind of heel in that he is making that happen.

What you forget is that it is the heel's job to get the face over in terms of being hated so much that you want to see the good guy prevail. That's not always the case with smarky fans because they like the heels and think they are "cool" to root against the babyfaces, but that's the way it should be. If a guy like The Miz is able to get an Alex Riley over, you know that heels are still doing their job.

 

[AmerikanWolves619]

To JJYanks121: actually Cena started off as a face when he first appeared via Kurt Angles open challenge on Smackdown! at the start of the "Ruthless Aggression" Era so the exception applies.
But to get back on topic, I would be great to see actual wrestling heels that can win matches with their in-ring talent, heel personal, and mic skills rather than cheap-shots, short cuts, and controversal tactics. Those days are all but gone (damn, I hate to say that).

 

[AlwaysHasBeen]

JJYanks121,

Good points.

On John Cena as a heel, though...you are right about the fans getting on his side, growing fond of his freestyles and cocky attitude. I was one of them. However, two issues: (1) I think the heel turn happened way too soon. In the past (with successful cases), even when fans get on the back of a bad guy, the transformation does not occur so suddenly. (2) Cena himself as a face is a roadblock for heels to thrive and evolve in the WWE. Not just because of match finishes (where Cena either wins clean or loses dirty everytime) but because he is the only face I know that stands for doing what's right, and yet cracks childish jokes about his heel counterparts, hence robbing them of their heat.

On Riley- I can guarantee he will not amount to anything in the WWE. Not because he's not talented because he is, but creative will not be able to elevate him any further, face turn and all. I'm a big believer that gimmicks are what works and once they stripped him of his jock gimmick which he (especially with a valet in FCW) played to a tee, and gave him a first and last name, his career was over. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but it is what it is.

 

[AlwaysHasBeen]

To JJYanks121: actually Cena started off as a face when he first appeared via Kurt Angles open challenge on Smackdown! at the start of the "Ruthless Aggression" Era so the exception applies.
But to get back on topic, I would be great to see actual wrestling heels that can win matches with their in-ring talent, heel personal, and mic skills rather than cheap-shots, short cuts, and controversal tactics. Those days are all but gone (damn, I hate to say that).

I feel ya, Amerikan! My sentiments, exactly. And good eye with the Cena "Ruthless Aggression" bit. I'll never forget when he first came on the scene, watching this YouTube video of a wrestling training session and I think it was a hiptoss or arm drag that he executed wrong to the instructor's chagrin and I was like, "If this guy makes it..."...D'OH!

 

[Charismatic_Enigma]

Yeah, the whole heel image has definitely changed a lot since back in the day when you had heels that did whatever they wanted to. But even back in those days heels were whiny, look at Austin during his heel days with the Alliance, he was constantly whining about this and that. Of course it was an act and he played the part well but, looking at that list Edge would be one of the exceptions as well since he first started as a face then became a heel.

Cena like someone else already posted started out as a face and skyrocketed in a matter of years to the top, mostly because of there heel gimmicks. So looking at all the becoming a heel is a very important part of every superstars career, it helps bring them up.

Truth is WWE I don't think is lacking heels, I think right now WWE has way to many heels. Like Smackdown for instance, if I asked you to name a few faces on Smackdown a lot of peoples first thoughts would be Randy Orton and they would draw a blank. Too many heels brings down other heels appeals, there aren't enough faces to really balance things out. But as far as putting more into there actions I agree, heels don't do as much as they used too, back in the day they'd attack from behind, bad mouth the crowd in a way that made you really want to hate them. Now when they badmouth a crowd it's usually about a certain team from the city or if it's to build hype in a feud, but the heels can't really pull that off well enough it seems.

Speaking to transitions, Miz and Barrett I think could at this time transition to faces, they've built up there heel credibility and people know who they are, however Miz pretty much the heel that your describing, even though he generates good heat, he is even falling victim to this. Swagger and Dolph they have a ways to go, even though they started out there characters as champions they crashed and burned quickly because they weren't given enough time to draw a reaction from the crowd.

And I can agree with that, I almost always pull for the heels myself, but only heels that I know can get the job done and have the right character to fit as a heel. Ruthless, Aggressive and really not afraid to do whatever they feel like.

But in the end, I think WWE is over focusing on the heels as a whole and needs to step back and even things out. And realize who should be a heel and who shouldn't who can generate the right heat without much trouble. Heels have been a problem for WWE for a few years now, but they need to focus on heels and faces to fully fix it, but that's just what I see.

 

[Charismatic_Enigma]

Cena debuted as a face against Kurt Angle in June of 2002. Her stayed a face for a few months feuding with Jericho most of the time, in October he went into a tag team tournament with Billy Kidman which they actually lost, he turned heel the next week where he slowly started to develop into his Rapper gimmick, that's when he started his feud with Undertaker.

 

[Karilas]

Thats because WWE has became so PG that its all about the Happy Face who will always Own the Heel and will always be happy .. its their current product at the moment, look at the next PPV i can bet that 95 if not 99% of all the faces will win and it be a happy night.

Stop me if I'm wrong here, are you saying you'd like to see more babyfaces that are sulky, moody and generally down about things?

I'm thinking like Raven as a face, here. Or Neil from the Young Ones.

That could work if lots of really bad shit just kept happening to them out of sheer misfortune. Stuff like lights failing, pyros fizzling out, the tron collapsing when he comes out. That sort of thing.

To lazily swing back on topic now, Sheamus is a guy who fits the heel mould perfectly. He flips and flops between the cowardly villain and the menacing bully, playing both roles in a very believable fashion, in my opinion. That said you don't want too many powerful heels, it's too easy to make all your faces look weak that way.

 

[JGlass]

The lack of brave/monster/fighting heels is definitely something that I think is hurting the WWE right now. There are so many cowardly heels that it's starting to get hard for heels to stand out form one another.

That said, there are a few heels that aren't total cowards. Sheamus is always spoiling for a fight, and while he has had a history of avoiding some of the big fights, he's starting to get back into the Irish warrior spirit. Cody Rhodes is more deranged than he is cowardly. He uses underhanded tactics, sure, but I think you can chalk that up to how disturbed he is rather than how cowardly he is. CM Punk isn't cowardly either, he just relies on the numbers game and distractions from Mason Ryan. Mark Henry isn't a cowardly heel either, just an uninteresting one.

The WWE has it's fair share of non-cowardly heels, but none of them are really being featured right now. I agree though, that the WWE needs to take more time into developing some more compelling bad guys, not just relying on the good ol' cowardly heel role.

 

[Wade's Public Transit Bomb]

I actually think the problem isn't the booking that is directly on the show. Heels have always been whiny, sneaky and/or EVIL~! They are heels. That is what heels do.

I think the problem is that they are just so quick to push a guy and then make him completely irrelevant after his push is over all within a matter of months.


For those who find me annoying you might want to skip over this next part..


Wade Barrett last year has been on of the few ACTUALLY interesting heels the WWE has developed in a long time. There's was something about the guy. His look is fairly generic (all black, tall and muscular with a weird tattoo), and his ring skills at the time were average. But just looking at him was just sorta odd because people always talk about the "it" factor, but very few guys extruded it like Wade. Then he opened his month, and regardless of the bullshit he spewed like a heel does, people listened, they responded, and if nothing else, forced him to ad-lip on many occasions. People wanted someone new to the fold and they got this tall English bloke that you couldn't help but boo. Even those infamous Cena Boo Birds were behind Cena when the choice was either Cena or Wade. For six months, Wade was really the interest point of Raw..

So, where is this naturally interesting guy now? In a mid card feud with someone no one cares about on the show no one watches.


Yeah, like how does the WWE expect anyone to have any real long term impact if they just sweep the rug from under someone so quickly? It does feel like they are playing hot potato when it comes to the big pushes.

 

[AlwaysHasBeen]

Charismatic Enigma,

Hey, I'm glad you saw a lot of valid points in my argument.

You pointed out how, when it comes to igniting a rivalry via mic work, "the heels can't really pull that off well enough," and I totally agree. However, I think being able to verbally excite the public about a potential feud strongly rests on the material and substance available to make the possibility of the feud interesting, of which there is little of due to the lack of gimmicks and the lack of good writing.

For example, R-Truth, running with his "conspiracy against me" angle, has started up a feud with Mr. Cena which in reality has less to do with believing he deserves a title shot or can beat Mr. Cena than it does with him throwing a tantrum, talking gibberish, and making strange facial expressions week after week building no real heat with the crowds (WWE planting actors in the crowd is soooo stupid and, to me, is cheaper than WCW paying fans to applause and boo on queue), and falling ass-backwards into a main event match at a PPV. Sure, he made a few references to Mr. Cena's merchandise but did so in a manner to demonstrates his jealousy.

There is no substance here. There was a great opportunity for Vince to get involved and elevate R-Truth's "conspiracy against me" angle last week, but what happened? Something that actually bothered me quite a bit.

- R-Truth inquires about the conspiracy to Vince.
- Vince makes fun of R-Truth's name. Tries to get a cheap laugh from the crowd. Calls him a pirate, and not a rapper.
- Vince tells him to go to WWE headquarters and...END SCENE.

Okay, so now Vince is not just passively, but ACTIVELY allowing his top heels to look like jokes.

Wouldn't you think that WWE's upcoming PPV's MAIN EVENT deserves a better build-up?

I mean, imagine if Truth were to attack Vince and segue into commercial. That would have, in my eyes, given Truth some heel-cred. AND added some SUBSTANCE to the feud...something that Cena (as much as I don't like him) could have used to talk about on the mic next week!

Something TRUTH could talk about next week. Even in one of those at home interviews with JR where JR uses his great oratorical skill to question and berate the character of R-Truth.

But, yeah, I digress.

In addition, Charismatic Enigma, you had brought up Barrett possibly being in a suitable position to turn face but IDK, I gotta disagree. Aside from the fact that he has not really shown me any real exceptional wrestling skills, his whole stint in the WWE so far has had him using cronies to interfere in his matches. I mean, no question, Barrett is confident on the mic and was a great leader for a faction but the way he was/has been utilized has tarnished his momentum.

Thanks for the reply, though. Real good stuff!

 

[akbigbadwolf]

Your not wrong on this. I thought about this the other day the Main issue for Cena isn't Cena It is the lack of a credible foil to him. Miz isn't half bad but there isn't that bad guy like HHH back in the day that would come in and level the good guy and make you love to hate him now you just hate them. I would really love to see someone step up and just be a villian.

 

[AlwaysHasBeen]

there isn't that bad guy like HHH back in the day that would come in and level the good guy and make you love to hate him now you just hate them. I would really love to see someone step up and just be a villian.

Exactly, akbigbadwolf. I mean, I'm not saying a heel can't have their moments when they get outsmarted, but in general wrestlers were just more sure of themselves years back. It has nothing to do with PG either. Case in point: Look at children's cartoons. Evil characters are not, for the most part, querulous or timid, they have strong personalities and goals in mind and whether that be attaining something or hindering the protagonist's ability to do so, they are clever and tenacious at achieving their objectives.

 

[Charismatic_Enigma]

AlwaysHasBeen

Ah, very excellent points.

Truth though can deliver, but the gimmick kills a lot of what he's trying to do. That's been the thing with gimmicks they either kill a Superstars mic skills or there in ring ability. Cena and R-Truth are good examples of that.

But R-Truth can deliver just what he says you don't get that "I'm a heel" feel to it. The conspiracy angle is good, it's been done before yes, but Truth pulls it off to make it believable but can't seem to pull it off in a heel way, reason he was so used to being a face, there have been a few times on Raw where you could look a Truth and still see a little face in him, while in the ring and on the mic.

This is another thing about Heels, when they become so into there face gimmick and switch over many can't fully switch over because it takes them time to get used to it.

On the plus though R-Truth is one of the few who isn't a coward, he is aggresive he'll kick ass if needed and attack someone if he wants to but he's not so cowardly to run away, which is something so few heels do nowadays.

And Vince, he's playing face right now, you can tell that, usually standing in the ring with a heel he'd push them immediately but not this time.

And if WWE wanted a build up they would have resorted to action, back way when you'd have one of them attacking the other in some way or form, to build up something or push it further to make it even more personal.

Which is another problem, today heels don't make things as personal as they used to, like the Edge and Cena feud, slapping Cena's father in the face. How could that not make you hate Edge with every fiber of your being (I was the exception though, I could never get myself to hate Edge.) and want to see Cena win the title back from him. This has changed with the PG change over of course, since slapping someone like that isn't really PG rated.

Mm, pretty much yes, but that has worked for him, it has built him up as a power hungry leader that cares for no one but himself, and himself carrying a title. The way I see Barrett, he could very well switch over at the right time, though I personally like him as a heel, in fact I prefer him as a heel, I could see him switching over at the right time and place. But I can say that it could be a possibility but going with his character and the way he carries himself, he'll probably be a heel all his career.

 

[justinsayne]

Those types of heels still exist, WWE just seems to stick them all on SD!, Sheamus, Henry, & Kane (during his last heel run) are all perfect examples of Heels who are not whiny cowardly lil' *****es who use their lackeys to get the job done, all three are heels that take matters in their own hands, and have dominated over faces in the past. the guys like Miz, Punk, ADR, & Truth just don't fit the mold of the evil dominant monster heel that you are talking about, and right now in their current roles they all are doing a good job of making fans hate them (outside of the IWC anyway)

 

[Charismatic_Enigma]

Did anyone else think this was a thread about Scott Hall being on his death bed or something?

Anyway, there is a lack of dominant heels at this time. I thought they may do something with Mason Ryan. I blame steroid tesing.

Hah, missed that one good catch.

But Steroids has had a big impact on WWE talent...along with the draft of course, a lot of good talent heels included were pulled.

As far as Mason Ryan, I'm surprised that they hadn't he seems like he could pull off heel well, and with his look he wouldn't need to run.

Another thing about heels, back then most of the heels were the bad-asses or the big guys that you didn't want to mess with, today most heels aren't that big in stature, which would cause for a reason to need backup to make them seem more intimidating.

 

[AlwaysHasBeen]

Did anyone else think this was a thread about Scott Hall being on his death bed or something?

Anyway, there is a lack of dominant heels at this time. I thought they may do something with Mason Ryan. I blame steroid tesing.

Ha, I in no way wish any harm on Scott Hall with the forming of this thread. Funny, though lol.

But, GSB, to follow up on your point about steroid testing...

I do think that the lack of bigger guys does kind of ruin the whole spectacle of the larger than life bad guys, but not insofar as to say that the dominant heel needs to juice in order to be reckoned with. I mean look Nash and Hall as Razor and Diesel in the 90s. Those guys were just in great shape, but to my recollection, they were not on roids. Hell, Nash still looks about the same build now. However, along these same lines, I do believe something has drastically changed over time: conditioning.

If you look at matches of the past you can tell that the pace and duration have both changed dramatically, and not necessarily in good ways. Even the bigger guys like Hall, Nash, Brock, Austin, etc. were doing moves you do not see larger guys doing anymore, both due to conditioning, the awkward pace of bouts, and the transient duration of matches. Match quality has suffered because of it.

A lot of wrestling basics that I took for granted when I was younger because they were a constant in all matches (irish whips, shoulder tackles, leap frogs, hip tosses, arm drags, drop toe holds, russian leg sweeps, back body drops, clotheslines, 10punches in the corner, hammerlocks, etc) were moves that were part of most midcard to main event level stars' arsenals and then...they slowly became a glimmer of what used to be.

It's funny to me to see most women's matches starting with a collar-to-elbow tie-up and yet almost no males kicking off a match that way. For example, I was analyzing the formula for a match on Raw this past week pitting Santino VS Ted DiBiase Jr. It went pretty much like this:

Punch - punch - punch - head to turnbuckle - kick - roll outside - come back in - punch - punch - judo throw (by Santino) - missed "Cobra" attempt - more of the same - then "Cobra" - pinfall.

I mean, wow.

I'll tell you what, though. I, for one, am liking Jinder Mahal. I don't know about you guys but he's got that something. The confidence a heel needs. And when he executed a textbook vertical suplex in his debut SD match into a floatover pinfall attempt, I never thought such a simple move would bring a smile to my face. But it did.

As for Mason Ryan...steroids have very little to do with his current status as Punk's lackey. I mean, it's one thing to be muscular but wrestling requires athleticism which he has very little of. Like Khali, Ryan's got two left feet in the ring. And not to mention he looks constipated all the time. And kinda like Stifler from American Pie.

 

[AlwaysHasBeen]

the Main issue for Cena isn't Cena It is the lack of a credible foil to him. .

Akbigbadwolf,

After reading this over again, it made me think. I respect your statement here, but don't necessarily completely agree. See, the way I see it, wrestling is give and take - all the superstars employed by WWE are much like a theater company where everyone works together to put on the best show possible (or tries to at least) and are responsible for the maintaining/enhancing the rep of their opponents (faces to heels/heels to faces).

However, I DO think Mr. Cena plays a huge part in hindering the credibility of a foil to him by making it impossible to believe anyone can one-up him (and when he does actually get a heel-beatdown he does a miserable job at selling, and FU if ya think I'm a "Cena-hater"; I'm actually a, how you say, "wrestling fan"!)

But what I mean by this is, think about it, when most superstars are on the mic these days, a lot of material is obviously scripted for them. But WWE has surely given Mr. Cena carte blanche when it comes to TV time, and he uses it by making jokes and using references that are usually malapropos and do nothing to further his feud and build tension.

When you are in a rivalry in pro wrestling, at least with the current annual 12 PPV structure, the fundamental notion that comes to mind is that you want to ensure that your opposition does not lose face (nor should you) until PPV time. What WWE has done more recently is keep the feuding participants from competing in a singles match against each other until the PPV, which I don't like, but whatever. So that means all that's left to really build the feud is mic work. And Mr. Cena's constant belittling of his rivals does more bad than good, IMO, ESPECIALLY since he is always given more mic time than his rivals and so it should be in his best interest to build their cred for them.

And, on a side note, Terminator 2 Randy Orton (and I call him Terminator 2 because Orton as a face is much like watching a robot that people cheer for) has recently had a trend of constantly RKOing his foes leading up to PPVs, where he has almost always come out on top in the end. This is another example of faces tarnishing the credibility of their foils. Not Orton's fault though, just whoever is pulling the strings but, just wanted to mention it.

 

[akbigbadwolf]

Honestly don't care if you hate like or are indifferent to Cena to be honest. But Cena can sell When Nexus debuted if he couldn't that would have been a disaster. However, There hasn't been a believable villan in ages. We get group after group after group. When was the last time that someone came out and just kicked a faces ass and you could believe it, R-truths heel turn on John Morrison is what im talking about it was brutal and believable. It just reeked of I'm a bad guy and I just kicked this guys ass. Thats the kind of villian im talking about. If one person came out and kicked Cenas ass like that it would raise both Cena and his opponent.

 

[GameOver]

There's never really been a huge amount of legit no backdown heels ie they kick ass and still win.

the definition of a heel is someone who "Wins if they can, Lose if they must, But always cheat." That's the standard formula that's been the case for decades

Sure along the way you have some exceptions like The Undertaker, Brock Lesnar and Stone Cold etc. guys that beat the shit out of people and can still win but the issue is if they are too tough and deadly (ie Stone Cold) that invariably turns them face as people respect them and lets' face is noone really likes faces, they are the boring ones for the most part, the heels were cool.

Maybe they are just trying to say, hey stop chearing for the bad guys and start chearing for the good guys lol

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Not to sound like a whiney heel but where did my post go? I know I started off topic but I added some additional thoughts.

Anyway, even though Raw lacks dominant heels, I think the original poster and others are not remembering so clear some of the cheap tactics that heels in the past have used to win. Rock cheated like crazy for one when he was a heel (NOD, I Quit Match, Montreal Screw Job Two). Guys who premiere like Lesner and Undertaker are few and far between. Cena is now the dominant one and it is unlikely he is going to face a juggernaut until after WM28. Kind of sucks but I still enjoy Raw. See you on the deleted pile!

 

[The Crock]

Yeah, I totally agree, it's a problem nowadays. The WWE's main heels, the guys who get the most TV time, are all cowardly. They need to start having different types of heels. ADR can be a guy like DiBiase, Sheamus can fight anybody at any time, you know? The problem is, the guys who aren't cowardly heels, just aren't interesting. Mark Henry is a prime example of that. Sure, he won't step down from a fight, but who cares? They need someone to actually back up their heel actions, someone who we can actually see as a threat to the face, not just a guy who hides behind a distraction or another guy or something like that.

 

[Dagger Dias]

The problem is lazy booking. The creative team need to find a heel who can be booked as a villain but NOT be the type to run off if a face comes to make a save. They would need the domination of someone like Batista and the promo skills of someone like JBL. THAT would be someone I would actually want to boo. That will never happen though because the creative team seems to like relying too much on heels that act cowardly every time a face stands up to them. The threadstarter makes a valid point.

 

[radec]

Its mostly because of the Era. Faces are like super heroes and heels dont need credability just need to cheat. Few heels nowadays are headstrong and those who are are at the mid card eating shit. WWE just dont wanna risk it, they think faces are and should be invincible.