Round 6: youngbullzeye -vs- Numbers

[D-Man]

True or False. Rey Mysterio should have never been unmasked in WCW.

This is a sixth round match in the Debater's League. youngbullzeye is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[youngbullzeye]

i will let numbers go first and i will say he should never of lost his mask.

 

[a0161613]

*Deleted*

 

[youngbullzeye]

Rey Mysterio is a proud Mexican luchadore. You could make a case for saying he is the most famous of all time. It would not be difficult given that he is giving mainstream exposure every week.

The angle where he lost his mask was huge for him. A big angle involving big-name guys. It was also terribly booked and typically for WCW, it favoured the big guys who were earning bigger money and were involved.

The angle did nothing for his career. While he was getting matches and victories over guys that nobody expected him to compete with like Bigelow and Nash, it meant nothing. At the end of it all, he ended up being just another face in the cruiserweight division.

They weren’t going to push him like they wouldn’t push Kidman after he pinned Hogan.

WWE have proved that a luchadore can be successful. By embracing the mask as part of his character, they have a tight grip on the Latino market. He is now a former World Champion, respectable main eventer and title contender and a crucial part of the PG era product.

Rey has been very public about how important the mask is to him. He has also publically commented on how hurtful the angle was. The whole thing was entirely disrespectful to the Mexican wrestling culture that he represented alongside Juventud Guerrera and Psicosis.

The fact is, the angle was driven by Bischoff’s desire to embarrass. A subject that should never be a prime factor in booking but was a constant in the disaster that was WCW booking.

He should never have been unmasked because WCW never followed through on it. There was no pay off.

Umm... i put that i was going to defend that he should of never lost the mask if you read my orignal post???

 

[a0161613]

Well I figured you lost the 24 hr privelege of choosing.....OK fine whatever. Just post already. I'm tired of waiting.

 

[a0161613]

Rey Mysterio was embarrassed and personally hurt by the WCW unmasking angle. As a proud luchadore, he was brought up on the lucha-libre culture where a wrestlers mask was his life, his career.

Looking back, the angle that WCW booked was a stupid exercise in how not to make a star. While he faced the likes of Bigelow and Nash, in David vs Goliath matches, nothing came from it.

But hindsight is an incredible thing. How did he know that WCW were not going to follow through and make him a star? Did he have to agree with it? Surely he could have thrown a bitch fit and refused? But he was getting paid so why bother.

The matches that he had after being unmasked were making him more of a star than opening Nitro as just another face of the cruiserweight division. He was working with bigger names, names who were more known in the mainstream, pre-empting his work in WWE to this day. He had plenty of success as part of the Filthy Animals stable and it didn’t ever stop him getting work after WCW closed.

So while WCW screwed up the angle, what changed in the grand scheme of things? Not a lot.

If Rey OK’d losing his mask to Bischoff as part of the booking, why should he have kept it? If Rey agreed to it, then he should have lost his mask in line with the storyline.

 

[youngbullzeye]

Rey Mysterio was embarrassed and personally hurt by the WCW unmasking angle. As a proud luchadore, he was brought up on the lucha-libre culture where a wrestlers mask was his life, his career.

You are right where come's from is pretty much a disgrace to lose your mask you might as well kill yourself after you get unmasked.

Looking back, the angle that WCW booked was a stupid exercise in how not to make a star. While he faced the likes of Bigelow and Nash, in David vs Goliath matches, nothing came from it.

Now im to young to remember this storyline but i have read into but the Feud with Nash was helping him but the certenly did not need to take his mask off.
For this to work.

But hindsight is an incredible thing. How did he know that WCW were not going to follow through and make him a star? Did he have to agree with it? Surely he could have thrown a bitch fit and refused? But he was getting paid so why bother.

Now WCW did not make him a star with him taking his mask off.Hell i think it hurt him.When they took his mask off Mysterio lost some of his mystique when they reveled the mask under the mask

The matches that he had after being unmasked were making him more of a star than opening Nitro as just another face of the cruiserweight division. He was working with bigger names, names who were more known in the mainstream, pre-empting his work in WWE to this day. He had plenty of success as part of the Filthy Animals stable and it didn’t ever stop him getting work after WCW closed.

Yeah but him unmasking was not needed to have better matches.Yes he was working against more bigger names but to Mysterio was it really worth losing his mask preety much losing his identity i don't think so.I do agree that the Filthy Animals stable did help him but like i said before he could of done this with his mask

So while WCW screwed up the angle, what changed in the grand scheme of things? Not a lot.

Now it didnt hurt the grand scheme but it did hurt Rey Mysterio it hurt his tradition of lucha libre losing his mask.

If Rey OK’d losing his mask to Bischoff as part of the booking, why should he have kept it? If Rey agreed to it, then he should have lost his mask in line with the storyline.

He only agreed with it because it was either his mask or his job.It might have not been the right the decsion to make but it was the choice he had to make

 

[a0161613]

You have no opening argument! So are you using my own opening against me? Regardless, I’ll plough through this.

You are right where come's from is pretty much a disgrace to lose your mask you might as well kill yourself after you get unmasked.

Glad we agree on that....

Now im to young to remember this storyline but i have read into but the Feud with Nash was helping him but the certenly did not need to take his mask off.
For this to work.

I didn't watch WCW but I know enough about it. It was a horrible angle, but my point is, if it had been better handled with more skill, then the outcome could have been successful. I suspect their interest in him as a crusier had faded and their attitude was that they couldn't make him worse or less entertaining.

Now WCW did not make him a star with him taking his mask off.Hell i think it hurt him.When they took his mask off Mysterio lost some of his mystique when they reveled the mask under the mask

But for a brief time he was in matches that had more importance than curtain jerking cruiserwight matches. And as part of the Filty Animals he was not any less successful. Unmasking didn't affect his ability to be successful in WCW. He didn't lose his personality, his ring work was unchanged.

Yeah but him unmasking was not needed to have better matches.Yes he was working against more bigger names but to Mysterio was it really worth losing his mask preety much losing his identity i don't think so.I do agree that the Filthy Animals stable did help him but like i said before he could of done this with his mask

If he wasn't happy about it then he should have left with the Radicalz.

Now it didnt hurt the grand scheme but it did hurt Rey Mysterio it hurt his tradition of lucha libre losing his mask.

Again, he was arguably more successful. He worked against and beat bigger names than the small guys WCW were booking in the cruiserweight division at the time.

He only agreed with it because it was either his mask or his job.It might have not been the right the decsion to make but it was the choice he had to make

Rey Mysterio could have been very successful, masked, in ECW, Japan or Mexico. But he chose to take the paycheck, keep quiet and not pursue a career elsewhere. Understandable choice I'd say. And when it came to moving to WWE, he was immediately booked in a successful program with Kurt Angle. I am certain that WWE did this because they knew he was versatile to work with the biggest names on the card.

And to this day, this is still the case. His time being unmasked had absolutely nil adverse effect on his career.

 

[youngbullzeye]

You have no opening argument! So are you using my own opening against me? Regardless, I’ll plough through this

No guy i already new what i was going to say and you had some stuff that i was going to talk about.But thats your fault.[/Quote]

I didn't watch WCW but I know enough about it. It was a horrible angle, but my point is, if it had been better handled with more skill, then the outcome could have been successful. I suspect their interest in him as a crusier had faded and their attitude was that they couldn't make him worse or less entertaining.

I'm preety sure their attitude had changed, but that has nothing to do with that they should have never done.And that is expose the man under the mask.

But for a brief time he was in matches that had more importance than curtain jerking cruiserwight matches. And as part of the Filty Animals he was not any less successful. Unmasking didn't affect his ability to be successful in WCW. He didn't lose his personality, his ring work was unchanged.

Yeah for a brief he had more importance but was it worth Mysterio taking off the mask.

If he wasn't happy about it then he should have left with the Radicalz.
If he would of left the Radicalz it still would have been bad as smaller wrestlers were still nothing in the WWF.Unlike Mysterio the Radicalz already had good credintals im not saying Mysterio didnt have good creds. but it would have done nothing to Mysterio.

Again, he was arguably more successful. He worked against and beat bigger names than the small guys WCW were booking in the cruiserweight division at the time.

OK so he beat bigger and more recognizable names but you said it yourself they were booked horrible.If something is getting booked horrible how is that helping anyone?

Rey Mysterio could have been very successful, masked, in ECW, Japan or Mexico. But he chose to take the paycheck, keep quiet and not pursue a career elsewhere. Understandable choice I'd say. And when it came to moving to WWE, he was immediately booked in a successful program with Kurt Angle. I am certain that WWE did this because they knew he was versatile to work with the biggest names on the card.

He probably could have been more succesful if he would have gone to Mexico or Japan.I think it would really affect his carrer around this time if he would of gone back to ECW.Now he did keep quiet but he might of been thinking about his family ,imagine if you had lived in the US most of your life and you either had to go to Mexico or Japan.Now for him he could of been fine with this but he could of been thinking about his family first as most of us would.

And to this day, this is still the case. His time being unmasked had absolutely nil adverse effect on his career.

Maybe it didnt hurt a visible part of history but it did affect him.You could say he lost alot of mystque when he lost his mask revaling the man under the mask.

 

[a0161613]

There was a severe lack of details to form a rebuttal against so I’m just going straight to my closing points.

*

Rey Mysterio was a star waiting to break out. The guy put on awesome matches that stole many a pay per view and Nitro. He could have been made in a main event in any country in the world, had he not been in WCW. Mexico and Japan would have flocked to see the guy in his prime.

WCW at the time were not giving a f’’k about the little guys. The Radicalz were in a similar position and they walked. Even Big Show, could have stayed in WCW and been very successful, but the egos were driving that company.

By staying in WCW, he allowed and OK’d the decision to unmask him, he got big wins (and therefore big money) against huge guys in WCW. I know he wasn’t happy but he did not have to stay. He could have walked into any company, even WWF would not have turned him away..

Now, Rey is still fighting bigger guys and is hugely successful doing it. This is something that WWE knew he could because he did it all those years ago. As a key part in WWE’s decision to go PG, Rey also nails the massive Latino demographic. He is a huge money maker and a true WWE superstar because everyone loves the underdog character that he so strongly represents.

My point is, by being unmasked, Rey profited financially and in his career. Had his career tanked like his Mexican counterparts, then I could understand, but as he is the best American born lucha ever, his talent shone through and he has not suffered for it.

*

Let me say this has been a bit of a cluster. The choice was late being made, there was no opening argument and I doubt there would be a closing argument before deadline either. I accept that I misread the choice BUT that’s no excuse for the plagiarism of my first post and the poor debate following it.

 

[youngbullzeye]

My closing argument i will state that Rey should never of been unmasked Bitchoff should of had more class and not of asked Rey for his mask because of the tradition that comes with the mask.It was wrong for Bitchoff to do that but Mysterio had no other choice if he wanted to stay with WCW.The point is that maybe to us as fans we see that it didnt affect Mysterio but we dont no how Mysterio felt.I'm preety sure that he wasn't happy with his decision but he had to do it.Was it the right choice NO.Was it worth it HELL NO!!He should of kept his mask on never reveal his face on live telivision and keep his mystique as the man under the mask.

And BTW i already knew what i was going to wright it not my fault and are ignorant and not read my post that is your fault!!

 

[Miko]

Classy

Clarity: I'll be surprised if I ever give this point to youngbullzeye

Point - Numbers

Punctuality: Didnt like the way he went about it but Numbers was right, so he gets the point for being on time

Point - Numbers

Informative: Brought up the following success that ReyRey had after being defrocked, Numbers again

Point - Numbers

Persuasion: Well, it's obviously Numbers, more facts, better arguments, yeah he wins. I said youngbullzeye always seems to give his all earlier on, still think so, just needs to work on his posts more.

My Scores;

Numbers - 5
youngbullzeye - 0

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity: Why do you never give an opening argument, youngbullzeye?

Point: Numbers

Punctuality: youngbullzeye gets this point.

Point: youngbullzeye

Informative: youngbullzeye should have just copied the post Numbers initially made...he would have gotten this point and split the clarity one.

Point: Numbers

Persuasion: I still don't even know what youngbullzeye was trying to argue.

Points: Numbers

Final Score

Numbers: 4
youngbullzeye: 1

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Numbers
No opening argument from ybe hurts him here.

Punctuality: Numbers
youngbullzeye didn't get his opening post done in the 24 hours required.

Informative: Numbers
I don't think youngbullzeye even brought any information, at least nothing new.

Persuasion: Numbers
Numbers had this argument from the go, the fact that youngbullzeye spent most of his time saying that his own screw ups were Numbers fault didn't add to the argument he wasn't giving. More or less a default victory for him here.

Final Score
youngbullzeye: 0
Numbers: 5

 

[D-Man]

I don't think youngbullzeye realizes how seriously these debates need to be taken. Proper punctuation, sentence structure, time management, and fact finding must be used to win these debates. Unfortunately, he didn't bring any of that here.

However, Numbers did.

Clarity: Numbers
Punctuality: Numbers
Informative: Numbers
Persuasion: Numbers

Final Score
Numbers: 5
youngbullzeye: 0

 

[D-Man]

After a complete judge's tally, Numbers is the victor with 19 points to youngbullzeye's 1.

Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!