Round 3: The Sign Guy v Blue Cardinal

[D-Man]

True or False: “The Pope” D’Angelo Dinero should have won the TNA World Championship when he faced AJ Styles at Lockdown.

This is a third round match in the Debater's League. The Sign Guy is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[TSG]

I will argue that he should've won, and I'll go first.

============

The topic: True or False: “The Pope” D’Angelo Dinero should have won the TNA World Championship when he faced AJ Styles at Lockdown.

I am arguing true for this debate. Before I start, I know the arguments Blue will try to use against me, so let me argue against those right now. I know Blue will bring up the fact that Pope got injured in said match. You know what I say to that? It doesn't matter if he got injured. No one knew he was going to get injured in this match. That doesn't matter. Dinero could've won and forfeited the title when he got injured. What matters is he should've been booked to win the match. And here is why he should've.

1. D'Angelo Dinero is over.
And Blue will argue this saying everyone is over in TNA. Very well, argue that if you want. But, Pope isn't just over. He is over. O-V-E-R OVER. The roof blows off the iMPACT! Zone when he enters. He gets the crowd chanting his name every single time he is out there. I would argue that Pope is one of the most over stars in TNA, more-so than Rob Van Dam, who eventually won the title anyway. There is no way that anyone was more over than Dinero should have got the title.

2. Styles was about to drop the title anyway.
A.J. Styles was going to drop the title. The next night. Yes, the night after Lockdown, Styles dropped the title to Rob Van Dam. I want someone to give me one reason whatsoever that:

A. The title couldn't have went to D'Angelo Dinero.

or

B. RVD was more deserving than Dinero for the title.

I mean, Styles was going to drop the title the next day anyway, so why couldn't he have dropped it to Dinero?

I'll leave it at that.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

For my opening arguement I'd just like to let TSG know that he infact doesn't know what I'm going to use to argue against him. Don't assume it makes an ass out..... You know the rest.

So my side is False, Pope shouldn't have won at Lockdown and well that's true. He shouldn't have won at Lockdown.

I'll keep mine short for now too.

The way I'm seeing this debate is mostly a Pope vs. RVD who was the better fit for Champion. The way I see it RVD was the better fit for a few reasons.

RVD reaches a bigger audience, he's one of the most well known wrestlers in TNA right now, Pope might have been over as hell, but RVD has been over for more than ten years. RVD had only been in TNA for a short while and got huge fast, who's to belive that he wasn't going to keep getting more popular and draw better ratings for TNA. While Pope was a fine choice for champion, RVD was new, hot, and on the rise. At the time he was the better for TNA to be the champion.

 

[TSG]

For my opening arguement I'd just like to let TSG know that he infact doesn't know what I'm going to use to argue against him. Don't assume it makes an ass out..... You know the rest.

I just like to nullify any possible points my opponet can make.

So my side is False, Pope shouldn't have won at Lockdown and well that's true. He shouldn't have won at Lockdown.

Yeah, he should've.

The way I'm seeing this debate is mostly a Pope vs. RVD who was the better fit for Champion. The way I see it RVD was the better fit for a few reasons.

This is basically where I want to take the arguement myself, except that Pope was better fit to be the champion, not RVD.

RVD reaches a bigger audience, he's one of the most well known wrestlers in TNA right now, Pope might have been over as hell, but RVD has been over for more than ten years.

Yeah, because that bigger audience really came to TNA, right? Ask those ratings that went up; oh wait, that's right, they went down.

RVD had only been in TNA for a short while and got huge fast, who's to belive that he wasn't going to keep getting more popular and draw better ratings for TNA

.

RVD being popular was completely novelty, just like Hogan, Hardy, Bischoff, The Nasty Boys, Val Venis, and the rest. It was nice to see them again, and they were popular for a small amount of time, but they didn't bring up ratings.

While Pope was a fine choice for champion, RVD was new, hot, and on the rise. At the time he was the better for TNA to be the champion.

But this doesn't change the fact that he didn't bring up ratings and had a boring and lackluster reign as champion. It didn't help the ratings, and not very many enjoyed it. Pope would've made a better champion.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

I just like to nullify any possible points my opponet can make.



Yeah, he should've.



This is basically where I want to take the arguement myself, except that Pope was better fit to be the champion, not RVD.



Yeah, because that bigger audience really came to TNA, right? Ask those ratings that went up; oh wait, that's right, they went down.

.

RVD being popular was completely novelty, just like Hogan, Hardy, Bischoff, The Nasty Boys, Val Venis, and the rest. It was nice to see them again, and they were popular for a small amount of time, but they didn't bring up ratings.



But this doesn't change the fact that he didn't bring up ratings and had a boring and lackluster reign as champion. It didn't help the ratings, and not very many enjoyed it. Pope would've made a better champion.

Before I go any further into this debate I want to know something. Are you going to say in hindsight Pope getting injured doesn't matter because we didn't know it was going to happen then, yet use the way the ratings panned out as your arguement? Let that sink in a bit....


You realize what you did there? I can also see your debating style is to try to tear apart each sentence then take it out of context to get me flustered, well try again.


On to the matter at hand. Let's just face the facts here, RVD is a proven main eventer and was brand new to TNA, him winning the title made more business sense than having an unproven WWE reject as the World Champion. RVD had everything going for him and was over with tons of fans and he was the right choice for champion.

Now we can look at hindsight too and say Pope got injured and wouldn't have been champion anyway. I'm just going to leave it up to you to how you want this thing to go.

 

[TSG]

Before I go any further into this debate I want to know something. Are you going to say in hindsight Pope getting injured doesn't matter because we didn't know it was going to happen then, yet use the way the ratings panned out as your arguement? Let that sink in a bit....

There is a certain time and place for each argument.

You realize what you did there? I can also see your debating style is to try to tear apart each sentence then take it out of context to get me flustered, well try again.

I'm good.

On to the matter at hand. Let's just face the facts here, RVD is a proven main eventer and was brand new to TNA, him winning the title made more business sense than having an unproven WWE reject as the World Champion.

No, not really. Because, say it with me now, Pope was over. O-V-E-R OVER. I cannot stress how over he actually was. Certainly more than RVD.

RVD had everything going for him and was over with tons of fans and he was the right choice for champion.

The same could be said easily for Pope. He was as over as anyone else in TNA and is no less qualified to be champion than RVD was. Pope was more over, his personality connected more with the fans. Plus it's not like they waited awhile to give RVD the title, they gave it to him the next night. They had no reason not to give Pope the title, none what-so-ever. He should've won it.

Now we can look at hindsight too and say Pope got injured and wouldn't have been champion anyway. I'm just going to leave it up to you to how you want this thing to go.

Now I think you need to get where you're going staright. You started to argue that we aren't arguing this debate in hindsight, and when start debating torwards that way too (which is where I was going from the beginning) you decide that we can look at it in hindsight. I know where I'm going with this, do you?

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

There is a certain time and place for each argument.

I'm good.

No, not really. Because, say it with me now, Pope was over. O-V-E-R OVER. I cannot stress how over he actually was. Certainly more than RVD.

The same could be said easily for Pope. He was as over as anyone else in TNA and is no less qualified to be champion than RVD was. Pope was more over, his personality connected more with the fans. Plus it's not like they waited awhile to give RVD the title, they gave it to him the next night. They had no reason not to give Pope the title, none what-so-ever. He should've won it.

Now I think you need to get where you're going staright. You started to argue that we aren't arguing this debate in hindsight, and when start debating torwards that way too (which is where I was going from the beginning) you decide that we can look at it in hindsight. I know where I'm going with this, do you?

I can see right through your arguements TSG, again, I see what you're doing and you might aswell stop. It's more annoying than anything.

Your arguement is that Pope was over in TNA, moreso than RVD. That's all really a matter of opinion. Sure Pope was hot, but so was Rob, hot enough to give the proven commodity the title run. RVD got the title because he could be trusted with it and could bring more national exposure to TNA. RVD is a more recognizable name than Dinero, in fact if you haven't watched wrestling since 2008 you wouldn't even know who the Pope was. TNA is trying to gain more fans, fans they don't already have, and RVD was a name that could have done that. TNA saw that and gave him the belt instead and turned out to be the better choice.

 

[TSG]

Just to let everyone know, seeing as how the debate closes tomorrow afternoon, I'll be back tomorrow morning with a closing argument.

Your arguement is that Pope was over in TNA, moreso than RVD. That's all really a matter of opinion. Sure Pope was hot, but so was Rob, hot enough to give the proven commodity the title run. RVD got the title because he could be trusted with it and could bring more national exposure to TNA.

But he didn't, now did he. No new exposure was brought and ratings went down. This proves my point that RVD did nothing good as champion and Pope should've won it instead. At least Pope would've brought something fresh and new. RVD was playing the same old song which he has been playing for years, and there is a reason he was only World Champion once. And he only got that because ECW made its return. Pope was more over, newer, fresh, and could've done more for the title. He should've gotten it.

RVD is a more recognizable name than Dinero, in fact if you haven't watched wrestling since 2008 you wouldn't even know who the Pope was. TNA is trying to gain more fans, fans they don't already have, and RVD was a name that could have done that. TNA saw that and gave him the belt instead and turned out to be the better choice.

The bold part. He didn't, though. He flopped. He did nothing really impressive at all and had a lackluster reign. I'd like to know where in your brain you deciphered he was the better choice because he did nothing of note what-so-ever. He wasn't a good champion. He wasn't anywhere near the right choice.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Just to let everyone know, seeing as how the debate closes tomorrow afternoon, I'll be back tomorrow morning with a closing argument.



But he didn't, now did he. No new exposure was brought and ratings went down. This proves my point that RVD did nothing good as champion and Pope should've won it instead. At least Pope would've brought something fresh and new. RVD was playing the same old song which he has been playing for years, and there is a reason he was only World Champion once. And he only got that because ECW made its return. Pope was more over, newer, fresh, and could've done more for the title. He should've gotten it.



The bold part. He didn't, though. He flopped. He did nothing really impressive at all and had a lackluster reign. I'd like to know where in your brain you deciphered he was the better choice because he did nothing of note what-so-ever. He wasn't a good champion. He wasn't anywhere near the right choice.

You have yet to give me a good reason why Pope was the right choice.

If we are looking at this from TNA's perspective before Lockdown, before anything we now know has happened with Pope's injury or with RVD's championship ratings, RVD would still be the right choice. Sure Pope was over, but Rob was proven. Hardy would have been another good choice to go to, he was new, fresh, and WWE's 2nd biggest face when he left WWE. Both of these two would have been better choices than Pope. If they were to give the title to Pope they should have done it a PPV earlier, not wait two monthes after he won the 8 Card Stud tourney to give him the shot.

If we look at this knowing what we know now Pope wasn't the right choice because of injury.


Pope will get his run sooner or later, but Lockdown wasn't where he should have won it at. A PPV before Lockdown would have been ideal, but not at Lockdown.

 

[TSG]

You have yet to give me a good reason why Pope was the right choice.

The reason I think Pope was the right choice is the same reason I think RVD wasn't, which I have stated over and over again in this debate.

If we are looking at this from TNA's perspective before Lockdown, before anything we now know has happened with Pope's injury or with RVD's championship ratings, RVD would still be the right choice. Sure Pope was over, but Rob was proven. Hardy would have been another good choice to go to, he was new, fresh, and WWE's 2nd biggest face when he left WWE. Both of these two would have been better choices than Pope. If they were to give the title to Pope they should have done it a PPV earlier, not wait two monthes after he won the 8 Card Stud tourney to give him the shot.

Sure, it might've worked better if they had gave him the title earlier, but that isn't the point here, is it. We're debating if he should've won at Lockdown, which he should've. He was hot, he would've been fresh for the title, basically everything your arguing about RVD. The thing about Van Dam is you are arguing he was proven, which he really isn't. He has always been over with the fans, but he hasn't been a proven draw as a champion. He has never really drew in those big numbers consistently, if you consider him as ECW Television Champ and his ECWWE Title and WWE Title reigns as big numbers then your mistaken. You can argue he was over, sure, but so was Pope. More over, in fact. Pope should've won.

Pope will get his run sooner or later, but Lockdown wasn't where he should have won it at. A PPV before Lockdown would have been ideal, but not at Lockdown.

Your getting iffy with your arguments. First you go with RVD being proven, then over, and now Pope should've won at a different PPV. All of this aside, it doesn't change that Pope was just as qualified for champion as RVD was and he should've won it.

Now for the closing argument.

The topic for this debate was:

True or False: “The Pope” D’Angelo Dinero should have won the TNA World Championship when he faced AJ Styles at Lockdown.

I argued this was true. Why is it true?

Well, this is why.

1. Pope was over.
Argue all you want, Pope was arguably the most over guy in TNA at this point, still is really. Certainly more over than RVD. I think if you wanna bring in consistent ratings and at the least keep them from dropping, a young, popular, extremely over champion would be the best choice.

2. RVD was not a proven ratings draw.
Sure, Rob was over (not as over as Pope, though). But has he ever really proven himself as a draw, someone that can consistently bring in ratings. Rock did. Stone Cold did. Cena has. Triple H has. RVD hasn't. He never really briught in serious ratings anywhere. What was to lead anyone to believe he would bring up the ratings. Because he was new and fresh to the title? So was Pope. Because he was over? So was Pope. So who should've won at Lockdown? Sing it with me, Pope.

There is more I could elaborate on, such as how they were going to give RVD the title the next night, but I'll just mention those and leave this debate where it is. I think I have proven my point. I'll let Blue debate his side one more time, and be on my way. I'm out, later.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Closing Arguement

​

Our question was True or False Pope should have won the TNA Championship at Lockdown. My side was false, he shouldn't have won at Lockdown.

The whole point of this debate was from my oppenent to prove why Pope should have won at Lockdown. He hasn't proven anything except for saying Pope was over. That was his arguement, that's it. I've shown why I think the man that won it a day later was a better ift as champion and also why if Pope were to win it, it didn't have to be at Lockdown. If Pope were to win the the TNA Championship it should have come sooner than two monthes after he won the right to face Styles. If there would have actually been some interaction between Pope and Styles in those two monthes I wouldn't have a problem if Pope would have won, but there wasn't. All and all I think I have more than proven that Pope didn't have to win the TNA Championship at Lockdown.​

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Both chose a main point in the debate and stuck to it.

Point: Split

Punctuality: Sign Guy was late twice. Cardinal kept on time.

Point: Blue Cardinal

Informative: There wasn't any good information presented in my eyes. Sign Guy kept talking about how RVD wasn't a draw, and they went down, present the ratings! That would have got the point.

Point: Split

Persuasion: I haven't watched TNA much in the past few months, and never really got the appeal to the Pope. Far be it from me to say he doesn't deserve a title. However, neither guy's argument brought me to their side. I was really on the fence the whole way.

Points: Split

CH David scores this Blue Cardinal 3, The Sign Guy 2

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Draw
Both opened and closed nicely and neither went off track.

Punctuality: Blue Cardinal
Sign Guy was late.

Informative: Draw
Neither man brought any information to the game to back up their cause.

Persuasion: Draw
During this debate felt I was reading people's opinions and neither provided anything solid to sway me to their side. No hard evidence or anything clinching, draw here.

Final Score:
Blue Cardinal: 3
The Sign Guy: 2

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity of debate: The Sign Guy
Blue, what kind of opening argument was that? If you want to go the route of terseness, then look up Lee's posts in last year's debate.

Punctuality: Blue Cardinal
Sign Guy was late.

Informative: Blue Cardinal
I've already warned Sign Guy twice about bringing in little to no factual information to back up his cause. It was cute at first, but now it's just detrimental to his cause.

Persuasion: Draw
Read what Phoenix said.

Final Score:
Blue Cardinal: 3
The Sign Guy: 2

 

[D-Man]

Clarity of debate: The Sign Guy
This was a horrific opening post by BC.

Punctuality: Blue Cardinal
Because The Sign Guy was late.

Informative: Blue Cardinal
Sign Guy, debates are about substance and fact-finding... not opinions.

Persuasion: Draw
I also agree with Phoenix.

Final Score
Blue Cardinal: 3
The Sign Guy: 2

 

[D-Man]

After a complete judge's tally, Blue Cardinal is the victor with 12 points to The Sign Guy's 8