Round 3: jmt225 -vs- Thriller

[D-Man]

Is CM Punk the true example of showing that working on the independence scene for so long will pay off when coming to the WWE?

This is a third round match in the Debater's League. jmt225 is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[jmt225]

I will be arguing on the side that CM Punk is NOT the true example of showing that working on the independence scene for so long will pay off when coming to the WWE, and I will go first.

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I am a huge fan of Ring of Honor and all the other popular Indy scenes such as PWG, CHIKIRA, etc. However, working for these places in no way, shape or form helps develop someone into a WWE Superstar.

The fact of the matter is, CM Punk is a rare entity. Did working on the indies and earning himself such a huge name across the scene help him? Sure it did, I'm not going to argue you that, but what I will argue is that he's not an example that working on the indy scene for a long period of time will help you in WWE.

CM Punk officially started with WWE in August 2005. Do you know when he made his television debut? July 2006. That's 11 MONTHS in developmental. ELEVEN! And while I have no hard facts to back it up, I'm willing to bet it was his popularity on the indy scene that kept him held down for so long to begin with.

WWE over the years has developed a style. They literally have their own style of professional wrestling, and it's completely different than the indy scene. In WWE, you must learn how to play to the camera first and foremost... where is anyone going to learn that on the indy scene? In WWE you must learn a formulaic system as far as matches are concerned, whereas on the indies anything goes. In WWE you must work in front of thousands and thousands of people, whereas on the indy scene you're lucky to work in front of 500.

This isn't the territory days where working all across the land will develop you into a fantastic mainstream wrestler. No, today it's all WWE and nothing else. THEY develop their wrestlers the way they want them to be developed; just because you worked on the indies doesn't matter to them... you will still get took down to their developmental territory and learn their way of doing things. How is working on the indy scene going to help one way or another? You look at WWE's top stars over let's say the last 7 years... John Cena, Randy Orton, Jack Swagger, Batista, Sheamus, The Miz, John Morrison, Drew McIntyre, Kofi Kingston, etc... all these guys had very little to no experience working on the independent wrestling scene.

Now, let's look at the popular indy names to make it in WWE:

CM Punk
Evan Bourne
Bryan Danielson (maybe)

And that's it. Literally it. Every other person who had a long stay on the indies that got called up were eventually released after a short period of time with very little to no success on television. Take a look at Colt Cabana, for example. He was CM Punk's tag partner for years on the indy scene, and one of the most known popular figures around. He finally signs with WWE not long after Punk's debut on ECW, and look how it went... he got nowhere. A couple of small appearances on television, and boom... cut just like that. If working on the indy scene so long "helped" Punk so much, then why didn't it help someone like Colt Cabana, who is every bit as talented?

I'll answer that... it's because working on the indy scene has absolutely no bearing whatsoever whether or not you're successful in WWE. That's an indisputable fact.

 

[Thriller Ant]

CM Punk is an example of how working in independent wrestling can help you in the WWE. Yes, he may have been in developmental for a long time. Yes, other independent wrestlers have failed during Punk's WWE tenure. To properly answer this question, the focus needs to be not on what other wrestlers haven't been able to do with their indy experience, but rather what Punk has done with his.

First of all, Punk was able to connect with the crowd. So many guys who debuted on ECW failed before they even really got started because the crowd didn't care about them. Guys from TNA (Braden Walker, Vance Archer) and WWE Developmental (Gavin Spears, Tyler Reks) failed miserably trying to connect with the crowd and get over. CM Punk was a well-known name from ROH and was able to connect to the crowd that way and even after the initial awe wore off, he used the tricks he learned playing the crowds in ROH to his advantage. He was able to connect to the fans and make them care about him in ways that those other guys couldn't.

Secondly, he had confidence in himself. Punk carries himself like he belongs in WWE, and has since day 1. He knew he had been successful in ROH and other companies for years and that he had the talent to make that success translate in WWE. Guys who have success in ROH have confidence in their abilities because they worked in one of the best companies in the world. Guys from developmental territories don't have that experience and don't have that kind of confidence.

Finally, comes with an outside perspective. Someone who has been in the WWE pipeline for a majority of their careers can easily lose sight of the fact that their is wrestling outside of the WWE and it's territories. Guys like Punk have seen and done things that couldn't be imagined in WWE. The best example of this is the Straight Edge Society. Yes, there have been similar factions, but there hasn't really been anything that close to the SES in WWE history. And with all of his experience with that gimmick in ROH and other independent companies, no one could do it better.

CM Punk gained a lot from his time in the indies, and they are a major reason why he is where he is in WWE.

 

[jmt225]

First of all, Punk was able to connect with the crowd.

How exactly does connecting with crowds filled with 200 people help someone connect to an audience filled with 20,000? That just doesn't make sense, man.

You and I both know that CM Punk was just a natural talker from the get-go. He was born with that ability; he didn't develop it during his time on the independent scene.

So many guys who debuted on ECW failed before they even really got started because the crowd didn't care about them. Guys from TNA (Braden Walker, Vance Archer) and WWE Developmental (Gavin Spears, Tyler Reks) failed miserably trying to connect with the crowd and get over.

And so many guys have debuted for WWE and done perfectly fine without the indy experience. Look at the names I listed earlier. Cena for example had hardly ANY experience on the indy scene, yet he was perfectly fine on the mic when he first came along. He didn't need that "experience" on the indies.. he was a natural, just like CM Punk.

CM Punk was a well-known name from ROH and was able to connect to the crowd that way and even after the initial awe wore off, he used the tricks he learned playing the crowds in ROH to his advantage. He was able to connect to the fans and make them care about him in ways that those other guys couldn't.

And there have been plenty of well-known names from ROH who were able to connect with that crowd and then completely fail in WWE, such as Colt Cabana as I explained earlier.

Secondly, he had confidence in himself. Punk carries himself like he belongs in WWE, and has since day 1. He knew he had been successful in ROH and other companies for years and that he had the talent to make that success translate in WWE. Guys who have success in ROH have confidence in their abilities because they worked in one of the best companies in the world. Guys from developmental territories don't have that experience and don't have that kind of confidence.

Dude, Punk has ALWAYS had confidence in himself. He didn't develop that confidence working on the indy scene... he had it from day one. If Punk would have debuted for WWE in 2002, he would have been the exact same person. Full of confidence and ready to take over the business. That's just who he was; the indies didn't make him that way.

Finally, comes with an outside perspective. Someone who has been in the WWE pipeline for a majority of their careers can easily lose sight of the fact that their is wrestling outside of the WWE and it's territories. Guys like Punk have seen and done things that couldn't be imagined in WWE. The best example of this is the Straight Edge Society. Yes, there have been similar factions, but there hasn't really been anything that close to the SES in WWE history. And with all of his experience with that gimmick in ROH and other independent companies, no one could do it better.

It's like I said though, man, Punk would have had that same gimmick if he debuted in WWE in 2002, because in 2002 he was just as Straight Edge as he is today. That's who he is. It was natural for him to pick up a microphone and tell the audience, "Fuck you, I'm Straight Edge and I'm better than you!" The indies did not help him with that; it was just something he knew how to do from the gate.

CM Punk gained a lot from his time in the indies, and they are a major reason why he is where he is in WWE.

I agree he gained a lot, but he is not an example of how working on the indies pays off when it comes to working in WWE. CM Punk has always been CM Punk. He has always been extremely talented. He would have always been like that, no matter what he did on the independent scene.

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: jmt225
Both guys opened nicely, but jmt made a great opening.

Punctuality: jmt225
Thriller didn't respond to jmt's reply, so giving it to him.

Informative: jmt225
jmt's information taught me a few things I didn't know already.

Persuasion: Draw
Nothing against either, but because the debate never got fully under way, I can't really be swayed on one way or another, so a draw on this point is fair.

Final Score
jmt225: 4
Thriller: 1

 

[BooCocky]

I have to give all five points to JMT. He made an OP, replied to Thrillers. He gave more information, he was on time, and even though he wasn't too persuasive, he tried his hardest to maintain the pace of this debate. Thriller didn't cut him any slack. So I have to give JMT225 all the points.

JMT225- 5
Thriller-0

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Both openings were very solid, my only gripe was the lack of bullet points/bold. It helps to stick your points into my head.

Point: Split

Punctuality: What Phoenix said.

Point: jmt225

Informative: JMT brought up the territory days and the failures from the Indies. Without a rebuttle from Thriller I can't see anything to possibly give him a split.

Point: jmt225

Persuasion: I have to go with JMT on these points. Thriller tried to use Punk's Indy experience with promos and what not for his argument. Admittedly I'd probably love it if JMT didn't respond. But the points he made against it won him these points.

Points: jmt225

CH David scores this jmt225 4.5, Thriller 0.5

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity of debate: Thriller
jmt225, work on cleaning up your opening posts a bit more. Look at Franchize1990's and Ferbian's posts. You'd be unstoppable with just a little bit more organizations.

Punctuality: jmt225
What everyone else said.

Informative: jmt225
jmt225 provided the information like a sanitation worker dropping off his truck's haul at the local dump.

Persuasion: Split
What Phoenix said.

Final Score
jmt225: 3
Thriller: 2

 

[Phoenix]

After a complete judge's tally, jmt225 is the victor on 16.5 points to Thrillers's 3.5.

Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!