Round 3: Digging4Plunder v Dave

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 15, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    True or False: Evan Bourne needs a midcard title run to be taken as a serious contender in the WWE.

    This is a third round match in the Debater's League. Digging4Plunder is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
    Dave likes this.
  2. Digging4Plunder

    Digging4Plunder Occasional Pre-Show

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    cool deal.. not promising i'll be able to post a lot because of my job but I should be able to get something done.. i'll take the side of Evan Bourne does need a title to become a serious contender.

    Dave, go first so I can work tomorrow. Good luck dude.
     
  3. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Thanks a lot, dude. Before I start, I would like to wish you the best of luck in this debate. I must admit that I haven’t seen you around a lot and I don’t really know who you are but that means nothing just now. Bring your best and make your name…

    Now, I should probably tell you that the above extract comes from a dictionary. Not from any publication but rather from my own personal dictionary and I feel that it covers Evan Bourne rather perfectly. In this debate, I will tell you why Evan Bourne does not need a title reign to be regarded as a serious contender to anything. It is my goal to outline to you why Evan Bourne, through other means, has become one of the most promising and adventurous contenders in the WWE. It is my hope that after this debate is finished, you will subscribe to the view that Evan Bourne does not need a mid-card Championship reign to get over as a serious contender.

    So without further ado, let’s get onto why that is…

    The current state of the WWE:


    Yes, this is the best point of illustration for why Evan Bourne does not need a Championship run to be successful and it is because of the way that the WWE is operating these days. Let me take you through how the WWE is doing business and then I will show you why I feel that this is integral in stating why Evan Bourne will not need said Championship run.

    Over the last year or two, we have seen the product put out by the WWE change dramatically. No longer are the same people hogging the main event and taking all of the best opportunities. No, the WWE is much more stable and unlike TNA, they see how to create superstars from scratch. Evan Bourne is one of a number of superstars who are part of this treatment. A year ago, we were all up in arms over the fact that Triple H, Randy Orton, Batista and John Cena had competed in every main event for years. Now though, those arguments seem to have disappeared somewhat as a new generation of superstars make their way through the ranks of the WWE.

    Let us look at the last PPV that the WWE put out for a great and fair illustration of this. The main event of this card incorporated everything I have said previously as The Nexus, a band of superstars who are trying to make their way up the ranks of the WWE, headlined with John Cena and the likes of Edge and Chris Jericho. It is my opinion that the WWE are planning ahead for the future and Evan Bourne will undoubtedly play a part in that, much like The Nexus and The Miz are doing right now.

    Bourne has never held a title in the WWE:


    That’s right, Evan Bourne has never held a singles or Tag Team Championship in the WWE. Now, I know that this may seem like it is detrimental to my argument but I actually think the opposite.

    Look at Evan Bourne right now. Some, including myself, like to think that he has begun to make some waves in the WWE. Apparently all stemming from his rub from John Cena, Evan Bourne has become one of the hottest commodities in the WWE. He has been given much more air time and no one can argue that a lot more is being made of him. His finisher is replayed over and over again and he has been in the ring with some of the biggest names in the WWE, holding his own every time.

    Now, 6 months ago, a lot of people would have concluded that he was going to be let go. He was never in a match that he wasn’t squashed in and was far from the superstar that we have before us today. Yet, today we see another superstar, A man who is confident and is becoming somewhat of a fan-favourite. He hasn’t held a Championship thus far and yet our opinions of him have completely changed. He has accomplished that by being a solid worker and given us great matches with some of the best when he was given his chance.

    The Mid-Card Championships are only tools… Nothing more:

    That’s right, they are!

    Now I am going to call into question what a Mid-card Championship run would do for Evan Bourne… Expect this paragraph to be very short.

    When we look at the people who are holding the Mid-Card Championships right now, we have all the evidence that we need to see that Evan Bourne is better off keeping away from those Championships. Dolph Ziggler has struggled to get over by himself and now has a mouth-piece that has helped him into the Championship reign. Some would say that he has deserved it but he is barely a credible Champio, is he?

    The Miz is bringing some credibility to the US Championship right now and giving it to Evan Bourne after such an great reign from a great Champion might just show the inexperience in Bourne’s game. The Miz is the epitome of a great Mid-Card Champion and Bourne has never had a reign. I have a feeling that giving him a Championship reign after The Miz would backfire and the gulf in class might be very telling. Let Evan Bourne continue doing what he is doing right now and I promise that he can achieve the same result with different means.
     
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  4. Digging4Plunder

    Digging4Plunder Occasional Pre-Show

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    Yes - Evan Bourne needs a mid card title to be taken seriously. Without it, he's just the guy who does the shooting star press.

    Lets get two things out of the way.

    1. Bourne is good at selling.
    2. Bourne has the Shooting star press.

    And there is the extent of his credibility right now. All his credibility relies on two things and that's just no bueno my friends. Over the past weeks we've seen him get crushed by the Miz and wasted by the Nexus. Was he offered a slot on Team RAW since people have screamed "he's getting push!"? Nope.. Bret Hart was.. Great Khali was. Hell - The Truth was.. just one week AFTER attacking the Miz. (Which should've indicated they'd fight at Summer Slam but yeah.. besides the point).

    Due to his weird booking of teaming with Cena one week and getting squashed the next, it's actually the WWE's fault that Bourne can't be considered a threat right now. You know he can go in there and beat Zack Ryder.. but when you put him against Sheamus does anybody really take him seriously?

    What he needs is the proper build to a U.S. Title run so we can see that he is capable of getting over and winning a big match. Without any kind of championship run, he's going to stay where he's at. He can entertain the fans, but he can't suspend their belief long enough to be credible against high profile stars. The flashy move can only get you so far.. you can't be a one trick pony in this business or fans will grow tired of you.

    One trick pony = just a move.. no promo skills. You've got to entertain and perform. He can't sell himself to the crowd so he's actions have to do that for him. Wouldn't it be nice for him to have won a Championship he can be referred to in commentary as the "Former Champion" against someone like Sheamus? In fans heads, it'll click. Something like "Oh, he's won a title before so he's got a chance" It's the little things that make the difference.

    and if this makes no sense, which it seems to not as I was typing it.. I apologize.

    In closing.. U da man Dave11! Good stuff.
     
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  5. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Evan Bourne is far from a one trick pony. If you have ever seen him in Ring Of Honour, then you will know that he was actually one of the most varied and most exciting people to ever step into a ring. However, when you come over to the WWE, you have to adhere to the rules that they have in place. Unfortunately, that meant that Evan Bourne had to lose a lot of what made him special. His move set was altered slightly but the fact still remains that he is excellent in the ring. Yes, he has changed somewhat but make no mistake, the WWE do not need to go the same with way with Evan Bourne as they did with Sheamus.

    Evan Bourne will get his shot in the WWE and his inconsistent booking is half the reason that you even have an argument at this point. However, if the WWE actually realise that they are hurting their wrestler’s credibility with this booking, then they can work on remedying that situation. At no point will Evan Bourne need to hold a championship to be considered legitimate. I consider him legitimate right now and he hasn’t held a Championship yet.

    And this just proves my point!

    It is really unfortunate that the WWE have only just realised that Evan Bourne can be a serious contender in whatever division they put him.

    They used him to get Sheamus over early in his WWE career and now people think that he cannot go with the best of them. However, this way of thinking is completely wrong, for lack of a better phrase. Evan Bourne could be a Champion right now and no one would think that it is out of place. He hasn’t had a run at any Championship yet and here we are, talking about him as if he is a superstar. If that doesn’t show you that you don’t need a Championship to get over, then I don’t know what does.

    As I outlined in my opening post, WWE Championship mean absolutely nothing now. They are literally tools that are being used to get people over. The WWE goes through periods of having credible Champions holding the belts and then a nobody taking the belt from them. This is the case with Dolph Ziggler after he feuded with Rey Mysterio. Giving Evan Bourne a Championship reign would just lock him into that division and I don’t think that needs to happen with Bourne right now. He has rubbed shoulders with some of the best talent in the WWE lately including John Cena, The Miz, Sheamus and Randy Orton. Would he get the same treatment as US Champion or would he need to stay locked down in a feud with Santino Marella?

    But we already know that he is capable of putting on a good match and actually winning those matches too. I don’t think that we need any more proof that Evan Bourne can be competitive with the big boys of the WWE. It wasn’t so long ago that Evan Bourne was pinning Sheamus in a tag team match and no one would have said that he shouldn’t have been where he was right after that.

    The fact of the matter is that Evan Bourne is legitimate and will continue to be until the WWE decide otherwise. Yes, we all know that he was less than spectacular against The Miz in the last match they faced off in though. However, I would like to ask you something. Do you think that sais more about the push of The Miz or the push of Evan Bourne?

    I personally think that this was the WWE’s way of showing us that The Miz was going to be a huge deal within the WWE over the next couple of months. You admitted it yourself, the WWE were building Evan Bourne and then it completely stopped after The Miz beat him. I would argue that by beating Evan Bourne the way he did, The Miz made more of a statement. If he had beat Bourne 3 months ago before his mini-push, would it have been as much of a talking point? Of course it wouldn’t because Bourne had no credibility. However, putting The Miz over a credible, reinvigorated Eva Bourne legitimised The Miz.

    As for your “One Trick Pony” argument, I honestly think that that is ridiculous. People harp on about how successful John Cena has been by using his “5 moves of doom” and look where it has gotten him. He is the face of a company and one of the most successful people in wrestling since Stone Cold Steve Austin. It just goes to show that Evan Bourne could have the same success if given the same opportunities as people like Austin and Cena were.

    Make no mistake about it, Evan Bourne could be a superstar in wrestling without winning a Championship but it all relies on the plans that the WWE have for him. If Sheamus was to be beaten clean by Bourne next week, would you still say that Evan Bourne was not a serious contender? Of course you wouldn’t. At the end of the day, if the WWE chose to make Evan Bourne a serious contender, they would give him the opportunities to be that person. I personally don’t think that that would necessarily be a title run.

    ;)
     
  6. Digging4Plunder

    Digging4Plunder Occasional Pre-Show

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    That's a problem though.. what he did in Ring of Honor does not make him a serious contender in the WWE. The fact that he is watered down hurts him in this argument. Unfortunately, all he has is the shooting star press as of right now and that really is all that is getting him over.

    ehh, there's another problem. You have to wait on the WWE to book him properly for him to be a serious contender, you might have just proved my point. As far as the "WWE Universe" is concerned, Bourne had no credibility when he started in the WWE because they put him at the very bottom of the card. The pops for his SSP are the only reason he's even got a fan base right now.. honestly, this guy is vanilla like ice cream my friend. You may consider him legitimate but looking at the facts, it's hard to believe anybody else does at this point.


    This faults your argument Dave. The fact that he has been used in a less than flattering manner at times is the reason why his credibility is the turd in the toliet.. it's about to get flushed. He could be a champion right now but WWE hasn't used him to his potential that you say he has.. therefore, WWE has made him out to be a contender of the non-serious fame. I haven't talked about him as if he was a superstar either, I'm considering him just another face on the roster.

    Whether he would get locked down or prosper is up the booking team. But look dude, you said Championships are literally tools for getting people over.. !!!! We have a winner. Exactly my point. If they just let him hold a title then he can enter future matches as a "former champion" thus instantly making him a bigger threat then his is now. Right now he's just "that guy who does the SSP". He has no identity or character. He just smiles and flips. His shoulder rubbing with Cena is forgettable already considering he took a nasty RKO, a beat down from Miz and an ass stomping form Sheamus. Really sounds credible after that, huh?



    This has been proven to be a mere flash in the pan though Dave. As we look at his overall body of work the past few months he went from on the verge to just falling off the cliff as he climbed to the top.

    Both my friend. It shows that they were willing to job out Bourne, no matter how popular he is, and give the Miz a dominating victory. Bourne is not a threat. Nobody thought he'd beat Miz when he was introduced. So it was easy for Miz to beat him down like that and for us to continue on as if it never happened. Miz is on the rise and Bourne was proven to not be going anywhere anytime soon. Hey Miz, go win the World Title. Hey Bourne, be the curtain jerker and hit a SSP to get the crowd going, thanks.

    His victory over the Miz was AFTER getting destroyed by Sheamus and the Nexus.. he was clearly on the decline already. The victory didn't legitimize Miz, just made him look dominant. Due to Bourne's status, which you have even said is rocky, this did nothing but bury Bourne further and give Miz a victory. It was just a tool for a victory, Dave.

    Ahh, see Dave.. I wasn't talking about 5 moves of doom. Cena has the PERSONALITY to carry the company. I don't care if Cena does 10000 moves or 1 move.. he can talk too. My one trick pony argument is based off of the WWE just sending Bourne out to do the SSP for a pop and to get the crowd alive. That is ALL he is good for at the moment and that is ALL he is being used for. You even said that the WWE has to choose to make him a serious contender.. to me that seems like even you don't think he is right now. Yeah, he could be a serious contender if he beats Sheamus next week, but all that is, is speculation. We gotta argue based on the facts and the fact is as of right now, Bourne is no where close to breaking the glass ceiling. He needs a shot in the arm.. he needs....

    A title. *cue dramatic music*


    don't you wink at me!
     
  7. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    I would absolutely agree with that. However, it was not the point that I was making.

    What I was saying is that we all know how credible Evan Bourne can be and I was using his days in Ring Of Honour to illustrate that. They guy was really over with the fans and he could bring some of that promise to the WWE with him, which I would argue he has done.

    I wouldn’t say he is watered down because every single person who comes through the doors of the WWE are going to have to lose something that they would rather do. Evan Bourne is just another example of that. Sure, John Cena would like to hit Randy Orton on the head with a chair to get a pop from the audience but that is not going to happen. Evan Bourne could be so much more if he was given the opportunity in the WWE.

    Uh, you realise that every single person in the wrestling has to wait on the all-clear from their respective promotions, right?

    You think The Miz just walked into Vince’s office and told him that he was going to be pushed and Vince McMahon had no power to over-rule that decision? Absolutely not! At the end of the day, Evan Bourne busts his ass week in and week out. When the WWE feel he is ready to move on to bigger and better things, the WWE will have the final say on the matter.

    And what exactly does “legitimate” mean? Does it mean that you realistically think that he could give anyone a decent match? Or does it mean that he could be put anywhere on the card and stand a chance? Either way, Evan Bourne fits that criteria. He has feuded up and down the card. He has feuded with The Miz and Sheamus and has done his time at the very bottom. No matter who Evan Bourne is in the ring with these days, you can always imagine him coming away with the victory. It wasn’t so lon ago that he was pinning Sheamus.

    It all comes back to how the WWE feel like booking Evan Bourne, or any other superstar for that matter. If the WWE want them to be seen as the next big thing, then they will go out of their way to make that happen. Whether or not he holds a belt or not is irrelevant.

    I mean, look at Jack Swagger. He has not had many Championship reigns over his tenure in the WWE, yet we all think of him as one of the main legitimate talents on Smackdown. How did he manage that? By winning the Money in the Bank ladder match of course. Now, since that is not a recognised Championship in the WWE, are you seriously arguing that Evan Bourne winning the Money in the Bank Ladder Match would not make him a legitimate talent?

    Well that is completely subjective, isn’t it?

    I could say that Eva Bourne has been the best thing on Raw over the last couple of months but it wouldn’t mean anything at all really.

    The thing is, every single superstar in the WWE has had times where they have not lived up to the potential that we all thought they had. John Cena is constantly berated for his lack of variety in the ring. Randy Orton was verbally raped for his feud with Triple H at last year’s WrestleMania and this is just part and parcel of being a WWE superstar. However, each one of these guys have come good again and that is what will happen for Evan Bourne, mark my words.

    The WWE have shown enough promise in Evan Bourne that I am filled with confidence for his future. AT Money In The Bank, we all though that he was going to be a contender to take the Championship opportunity home with him. Evan Bourne had not won a championship to achieve that status, we just thought that he was a legitimate contender for that match. How did that happen? Again, it comes back to the WWE making him look like a star in the lead up to that match. To suggest that the WWE could not make it happen again without Bourne winning a title is just ridiculous.

    See this is just proving my point!

    You are saying that he could go into each match as a “Former Champion” but you are also saying that he has no credibility outside of one move at the moment. Now, how exactly would that be a good move for Evan Bourne or the WWE based on what you have said?

    How would it help Evan Bourne become legitimate if he was holding a Championship that meant nothing? According to you, Evan Bourne has no credibility but you would want him to hold onto a Championship with that tag attached? Why would the WWE sign off on that? Why take the belt off of someone like The Miz, who is being built to the moon, and give it to Bourne who “only has one move”?

    This just proves my point that people do not think of the Championship belts as a legitimate way to get people over anymore. 10 years ago, it was different. Right now though, no one cares about who is Champion. In the WWE, more important things are going on with the young talent than who is holding Championships.

    And I am glad you can see in to the future to ensure that this is accurate as can be? Otherwise, that is a pretty nonsensical claim.

    As I have said before, the last match he had against The Miz said more about The Miz than it did about Evan Bourne. The WWE wanted to put out a message on behalf of the Miz and the best, most legitimate, talent that they had at their disposal was Evan Bourne. Think about how that win went over. Were people shocked about how easily The Miz went over Evan Bourne? Yes they were!

    This is my point. Evan Bourne, up until that point was made to look like a legitimate contender within the WWE. The WWE realised that he had enough credibility to go against The Miz and people would talk about the Miz in a positive fashion afterwards. Not a lot of people can carry off that role but Evan Bourne has amassed enough credibility to make it work.

    Nobody!? That’s a bit of an overstatement, isn’t it?

    Most of that was covered in my rebuttal right above, so I wont type it out again.

    I beg to differ.

    And are you implying that rubbing shoulder with The Nexus (The most dominant stable in Raw’s recent history) and Sheamus (the WWE Champion) was a bad thing for Evan Bourne?

    It wasn’t so long ago that Eva Bourne was struggling to beat the likes of Zach Ryder. I will give you that fact that he looked bad at that point. But you only need to look as far as who is feuding with now to see how far he has come. Has he held a title in that amount of time? No he has not.

    What I am saying is that they have made him look so much more credible in the last few months without a Championship, so the evidence to support the opinion that he would be more legitimate as Champion is not really there at all. The WWE are doing a fine job of getting Evan Bourne further up the card naturally and putting a Championship on him has had no part of that.

    I don’t think he is right now? Are you putting words in my mouth?

    I do think of Bourne as a serious contender and I would urge you to look further into Evan Bourne matches. Yes, he does have one move that everyone can get a pop from. However, I would argue that he is so much more than a one trick pony. I would say that he has attempted to work on a more varied move set over the last couple of months and the WWE seem to be willing to give him that opportunity as of late. He may seem as though he has no charisma but when was the last time you heard him talk? As with all of the young guys who have come into the WWE recently, we are still waiting for them to grow into their roles and show us what they can do.

    Not everyone is going to be as gifted on the mic as John Cena or The Rock but it is in the ring that they need to make up for that. The same could be said of Randy Orton’s face turn. He has no charisma as a face but he is still mightily over with the crowd and is going after the WWE Championship. The same is true of Jack Swagger. Some would argue that he has no charisma as of late and his heel turn has shown that he canot carry off both alignments. However, we all know how gifted he is inside the ring and he is still in the main event on Smackdown.

    My point is that you don’t need to be the reincarnation of The Rock to be a legitimate superstar.

    :(
     
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  8. Digging4Plunder

    Digging4Plunder Occasional Pre-Show

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    We don't ALL know how credible he can be. A lot of the people right now have to judge based on what we see. I know for the arguments sake we can look into their past but this is based on what is going on in the WWE. Everything else is out the window. If he has potential, the WWE has only shown little hope in him. If I recall correctly, Evan Bourne's participation in the tag match on RAW with Cena that night was after Randy Orton's injury? Who's to say Orton wouldn't of been the partner? You're again saying that Bourne could be given the opportunity to shine if the WWE allows him. The argument is if he's legitimate right now. Didn't that just prove the point that he's not serious?



    Man, of course talent has to be given a chance. We all know they can't ask for it. As for your Miz analogy, who's getting the TV time right now? Who's being pushed as legitimate and who's not? Again, the WWE is making these decisions. You again said when WWE is ready for him to move on to bigger and better things. Again I say, he isn't a serious contender right now. You aren't arguing him as such. Your argument is when the WWE sees him as ready. That translates into him being no where near ready if he falls down the card as quick as he did. The Jack Swagger argument is useless because Swagger was given the opportunity. Bourne hasn't been given the opportunity because they obviously don't feel he is ready. They wouldn't just let Swagger win Money in the Bank if they didn't have some sort of plan would they?



    To say that we all thought he'd win at Money in the Bank is subjective also, isn't it? How quick we forget that his moment in the sun has clearly passed at this time. WWE made him a star for, what was it? Two weeks, and then quickly dimmed the star real quick because they realized he needed more than a move to get over. (Obviously, that's opinion.. but why else could they stop the push so fast?) WWE could make it happen again with no title. That's not the point though. The point is, as of right now, WWE has NO intent on making him a serious threat. They are just feeding him to the serious contenders right now. Sheamus, Miz, Nexus.. they are all FURTHER UP THE CARD than Evan Bourne. Bourne was supposed to lose to those guys. He's not credible enough to beat him, and it's his JOB.

    You've taken what I said out of context. The value of being a Former Champion is the credibility that comes with it. The WWE would have to BUILD Evan Bourne us a threat in order for everything to work. I mean, they can consider him for any thing he wants, but they know they have to get him to the point where he can go over, no questions asked. I was stating what they could do if they put him in that position. I would beg to differ on the WWE worrying about more important things than championships with the guys on the rise also. What's everybody striving for right now? Miz, Sheamus.. hell, even Barrett? A Championship. Miz wants the Title, Sheamus wants to keep it, Barrett knows he has a title shot and there is a total goal for the Nexus. Total goal being complete "domination". Why wouldn't that include a Championship?

    Regardless of who thought Bourne may or may not of had credibility before the match, you stated up until the match he may of been credible. He certainly isn't now. I believe he wasn't before the match too. He had already suffered the loss to the Sheamus and was disposed of QUICKLY by the Nexus. He was already declining and was just the best option available. Not because of credibility, but simply because he's more over than Yoshi Tatsu for crying out loud.



    Oh Dave, you know that nobody is just a generalization tactic to put a group of people under one umbrella. Of course, there were some people. We all use the terms though. =)


    Rubbing shoulders would've been better if the shoulder rubbing was a shoulder block and a pinfall. He got next to no offense in. He never looked like a THREAT. The whole argument is whether he is a SERIOUS contender. A threat is SERIOUS. Evan Bourne is NOT serious. Yeah, he looked okay in the past few months with no Championship. At this point, what would a Championship do for him? Definately something good. He will never get further up the card with no mic skills and no championship. He's not even a credible contender for the U.S. Title right now! Truth and Morrison would be next before him. The WWE has to build him properly, and they are not right now. He's fallen back down the card to be destroyed by those who are CREDIBLE.
    No, I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was just repeating what you've said the whole debate. The WWE has to choose where Evan Bourne is. To me, that means that he is NOT credible yet, and you're waiting for the WWE to turn him into a superstar. I mean, when you have a choice that means you haven't chosen yet, right?

    While we are still waiting for them to grow into their roles, I'll be winning this debate Dave. We are still WAITING for Bourne to grow into something credible. So, as of right NOW, he is not credible at all. He is not a serious contender. He needs to be built up AGAIN.

    I never said anybody had to be the Rock. For Bourne though, it couldn't hurt to have some decent skills on the mic to back him up would it? He needs anything right now to put him back over.

    Don't be sad at me!
     
  9. Dave

    Dave Administrator
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    Right now, I would very much like to do a closing statement as I won’t be around for very much longer today. I would like to say thank for you for an enthralling debate from my opponent. At the start of this match, I asked him to bring his best and make his name… He has certainly done that. Good job!

    At this point, I don’t want to quote too much as I want to get my closing statement done and by attacking everything that my opponent has said would be like continuing the debate. However, there is a couple of things I would like to cover as it is relevant to my closing.

    This speculation would be a fair point if it didn’t tie into what I am saying in the first place.

    Just because Evan Bourne has not received the push that he probably should have right now, it doesn’t mean that he will never get it within the WWE. Also, by saying that it translates into him not being ready, I don’t recall saying that. My point being, that whether or not Evan Bourne is legitimate right now or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that we are arguing whether he DEFINITELY NEEDS a Mid-Card Championship to legitimise him and my opponent seemed to forget that.

    The WWE will have final say on who gets legitimacy in their company and nowhere in this debate did my opponent tell me why holding onto a Championship would increase Evan Bourne’s legitimacy. Yes, he did say that he could enter matches as a “former Champion”. However, when I look at people like Dolph Ziggler, I cannot help but think “big deal”. People like Dolph Ziggler and Evan Bourne DO NOT NEED MID-CARD CHAMPIONSHIP REIGNS! What they do need, however, is for the company to have a little faith in them and this is where the sticking point of this debate prevails.

    I believe that the WWE can build a superstar’s legitimacy without giving them Championships and my opponent seems to think that the WWE are a one-trick pony who can only give a superstar legitimacy by throwing a Championship around their waist.

    I have been watching wrestling for the better part of 15 years now and the WWE in particular. Yes, they have given people title reigns to legitimise them but do you seriously think that this method is THE ONLY WAY to legitimise a superstar? If you answered yes to that question, then I have failed in my debate.

    However, I think I have shown enough evidence in this debate to prove to you that title reigns are not always the best creative option for a young superstar. The WWE Championships have been very shaky in recent months and at this point, whoever follows The Miz as United States Champion will be a dead man walking. The Miz has been a great US Champion and R-Truth has already felt the wrath of following The Miz as US Champion. He held the belt for a couple of weeks before the WWE realised that they hade made a mistake and took the Championship from him again. R-Truth was then made to look like a weak Champion and a fool.

    Someone please tell me how doing the same with Evan Bourne would be good for his WWE career?

    One could argue that R-Truth is far more over than Evan Bourne is and if he cannot carry off a mid0card Championship reign right now, how is Evan Bourne supposed to do it?


    Personally, I think that the WWE know enough about building superstars to ensure that Evan Bourne could be legitimised as a superstar without holding onto a Mid-Card Championship. I urge you to look at match types like Money in the Bank that could gift Evan Bourne a fair crack of the whip without holding onto a mid-card Championship. We have seen it in the past with young superstars. If they are given the Money in the Bank briefcase, the perception of that superstar changes almost immediately. The same could be true of Evan Bourne without him even touching the US Championship.

    At the end of the day, if you believe that Evan Bourne needs a mid-card Championship then you have no faith in the WWE or Evan Bourne for that matter. As a die-hard WWE fan, I would suggest to you that you look at people like Mark Henry, who you know can destroy a man in the ring at the drop of that hat. All we are waiting on for people like this is the WWE to make them superstars. Sometime in Evan Bourne’s future, we will see him being legitimised. It is my opinion, based on the arguments I have put forth in this debate, that a mid-card Championship reign need not be a part of that formula.
     
    jmt225 likes this.
  10. Digging4Plunder

    Digging4Plunder Occasional Pre-Show

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    forgive me for any spelling or punctuation errors. I'm having to reply on my phone on a small break at work so I have to be quick about it.

    You can't build ahouse without a good foundation and as of right now evan bourne has a poor foundation. Just when they started to let him build they told bourne to tear his house down in favor of others. I would believe bourne to be a serious contender if he hadn't of gotten squashed 3 weeks in a row. Hell, the pinfall he scored on sheamus was after an attitude adjustment from cena so bourne couldn't beat him anyway by the wwe's logic.

    Of course the wwe can build superstars without titles. I never said that. Its obvious though that evan bourne's push has been derailed though and any shread of credibility he may have obtained is gone due to the way he was booked. He didn't even get any kind of offense in the past 3 matches. Am I really supposed to believe that that next week he'll beaT sheamus? Whether you thought he had credibility befrore or not is really based on preference if you think about it. The only way he can beat the superstars is with the aid of someone else at this point. Will he beat sheamus? Nope. Will he beat sheamus after an attitude adjustment? Probably.

    My suggestion was simple. Give him some wins, reestablish him, and send him after the U.S. title. Unfortunately for bourne, daniel bryan has returned. That pushes him further down the card behind bryan, truth, and morrison. Hinestly, is he a serious contender when you look at the big picture? No, he is not. They have tried the push with no title and based it off of his finishing move. We see how far that got him don't we? Fans need more. Sure, put him/ in matches ladder matches. Who's going to think he has chance though? He's just there to pull off the holy shit moment and that's it. Hell, in the MITB match all he did was lay around, climbthe ladder, look at the title, aned then hit a SSP. Even evan bourne knows he doesn't have enough credibility to be a contender.

    Again, I never said the only option to build a superstar was giving him a championship. Its just with evan bourne they have already tried and failed. What is there left to do besides play the see saw game with his career. Either he's a contender or not. Giving him bourne a championship run will do no harm and help legitmize him for the future. After the past few months, does anybody think bourne is a contender? Does anybody see any other viable options to help put evan bourne over? As a matter of fact, you can compare bourne to MVP in the sense that both had pushes and both got derailed. Yes, MVP's lasted longer but until MVP is built back up the ranks do you see him as a contender? Hopefully not.

    You asked if the truth isn't over enough then how could bourne carry a title? Well, he has to be built up a serious contender first. That pretty much sums my whole side of the argument. Thanks for the good debate dave. I have more to say but no time.
     
  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Dave
    Dave kept his debate nice and neat where D4P did lose track a couple of times.

    Punctuality: Dave
    Digging4Plunder was late at one point and admitted it.

    Informative: Draw
    Both guys really did give some variety, but nothing stood out heavily on the info front from either.

    Persuasion: Dave
    Dave really kept a solid debate going and kept on track, he even kept bringing the debate back on track when D4P dragged away at times. That being said, Dave really brought his A game and did thoroughly convince me that Bourne doesn't need one when I did feel at times he might do.

    Final Score
    Digging4Plunder: 0.5
    Dave: 4.5

    Just a note to D4P, if there had been an emotion point, you would have got it. Seriously, don't be disheartened by this score as I was impressed by what you brought to this debate, take pride!
     
  12. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: D4P got a little off track a few times, Dave didn't.

    Point: Dave

    Punctuality: Dave was on time the whole way.

    Point: Dave

    Informative: Some info was good, but there wasn't too much added information later on and nothing separated one point from another.

    Point: Split

    Persuasion: Dave did a good job in this one. Definitely did a great job, and I was on the other side of the fence at the start. He was able to sway me to the fence, but not completely to his side. D4P, while sidetracking at times, did a solid job for his first DL debate.

    Points: Split

    CH David scores this Dave 3.5, Digging4Plunder 1.5
     
  13. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

    Joined:
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    Clarity of debate: Dave
    You did a good job of keeping on points and making things very easy for me to understand, Dave.

    Punctuality: Dave
    What everyone else said.

    Informative: Digging4Plunder
    This guy sure does know how to dig up and dump the information on us. He and jmt225 should be a WZ tag team.

    Persuasion: Draw
    Dave was the more organized and precise debater, but Digging4Plunder was the more passionate of the two. Since Digging4Plunder's passion didn't hinder his ability to still make a solid argument, I'm splitting the points here.

    Final Score
    Digging4Plunder:2
    Dave:3
     
  14. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    My colleagues said it all. Here are my scores for this debate:

    Clarity: Dave
    Punctuality: Dave
    Informative: Digging4Plunder
    Persuasion: Dave

    Final Score
    Digging4Plunder:1
    Dave:4
     
  15. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, Dave is the victor with 15 points to Digging4Plunder's 5.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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