Round 2: Thing vs. Achilles

[JGlass]

Round Two

Achilles made it past He-Man by the skin of his teeth while Thing managed to beat Wesker with some ease. The two men start fresh at the beginning of round two, but does Achilles have what it takes to slay another monster, and does Thing have the wherewithal to find Achilles' secret weakness?

FIGHT!​

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

He-Man is from Eternia and would have no knowledge of Greek mythology. Ben Grimm is from Earth and even if he wasn't up on the legend himself, I'm pretty sure Reed has explained it to him at some stage (and that's before Herc's anecdotes at the weekly poker nights).

Knowing this should be the only edge the idol of millions requires because, invulnerability asides this is a guy with human capabilities and ancient weapons taking on an immensely powerful rock. Benjy - easily!

 

[Shotaro]

He-Man is from Eternia and would have no knowledge of Greek mythology. Ben Grimm is from Earth and even if he wasn't up on the legend himself, I'm pretty sure Reed has explained it to him at some stage (and that's before Herc's anecdotes at the weekly poker nights).

Knowing this should be the only edge the idol of millions requires because, invulnerability asides this is a guy with human capabilities and ancient weapons taking on an immensely powerful rock. Benjy - easily!

The competitors have no foreknowledge of each-other unless they're from the same universe.

I think, in all honesty that Achilles would struggle to hurt Ben Grimm and that's what it boils down to, how quickly could Achilles hurt Grimm? Could he do it before Grimm could feasibly find his weakspot - I know he isn't stupid but it's not like it's named after him or... oh...

I'm still on the fence here so I'm going to wait and see how this develops.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

The competitors have no foreknowledge of each-other unless they're from the same universe.

I think, in all honesty that Achilles would struggle to hurt Ben Grimm and that's what it boils down to, how quickly could Achilles hurt Grimm? Could he do it before Grimm could feasibly find his weakspot - I know he isn't stupid but it's not like it's named after him or... oh...

I'm still on the fence here so I'm going to wait and see how this develops.

I never said the Thing had prior notice, I said that he would know about Achilles through Greek Legend anyway. Just like he would know about Jesus, Robin Hood, King Arthur or any other historical or mythical being. Hercules and the Greek Gods are part of the Marvel Universe - Greek mythology is part of the Marvel Universe, ergo Ben Grimm knows about Achilles.

 

[Shotaro]

I never said the Thing had prior notice, I said that he would know about Achilles through Greek Legend anyway. Just like he would know about Jesus, Robin Hood, King Arthur or any other historical or mythical being. Hercules and the Greek Gods are part of the Marvel Universe - Greek mythology is part of the Marvel Universe, ergo Ben Grimm knows about Achilles.

Go read my post again and see how I actually backed up your argument by pointing out that Grimm would know of the Achilles tendon and would eventually figure out how to hurt him anyway since he's not a moron. Arguably Achilles should be in the Humans Bracket but that doesn't mean that Grimm automatically wins, Achilles is an extraordinarily highly trained and highly skilled warrior and with his preternatural physical abilities he would be able to guard his ankles against Grimm for some time whilst chipping away at him.

The question was, and the question remains Could Achilles hurt Grimm enough before he figures out Achilles' weakness AND manages to get to it. I'll concede point a and agree that even at worst it would not take Grimm long to figure out that he was facing a guy named Achilles who cannot be hurt and since the phrase "Achilles Tendon" is used to name a huge weakness of someone, would Grimm be able to get to it before Achilles managed to chip away at the Things neck/eyes/mouth - because Achilles was a soldier trained to kill and would make Grimm swallow his sword if that is what it took to take him down.

I'm sitting on the fence here, convince me

 

[Remix]

The question was, and the question remains Could Achilles hurt Grimm enough before he figures out Achilles' weakness AND manages to get to it. I'll concede point a and agree that even at worst it would not take Grimm long to figure out that he was facing a guy named Achilles who cannot be hurt and since the phrase "Achilles Tendon" is used to name a huge weakness of someone, would Grimm be able to get to it before Achilles managed to chip away at the Things neck/eyes/mouth - because Achilles was a soldier trained to kill and would make Grimm swallow his sword if that is what it took to take him down.

No.

Let's put this in the best case scenario for Achilles: Ben doesn't know about the heel. Lets look at what Achilles has as an Ancient Greek warrior. He's armed with a bronze sword and a bronze tipped spear. Ben's made of living rock. He's not doing to be doing much damage with those weapons. So he's not going to be putting Ben down like that. His bronze armour, though forged by a God isn't likely to stand up to The Thing for long either. Inside the box, Achilles is screwed.

So, let's look beyond that at other skills Achilles is likely to posess. He's going to be at the limits of human strength, endurance and athleticism because Myrmidons strike me as the type of people who train like insane motherfuckers, and also he wears heavy armour and runs around in it. However let us consider the implications of Achilles divine durability. Muscles are actually considerably stronger than whey are able to show. This is because the human body would literally tear itself apart if the muscles used 100% of their strength. Tendons, bones and the muscles themselves can't take it. For Achilles though this isn't an issue. He can't be injured anywhere other than one ankle. It is reasonable to assume that he's able to demonstrate Superhuman strength because of this. However, he's not going to be in the league of Ben Grimm, and he's going to have trouble doing any damage to his rocky form.

We must also assume that Achilles is skilled at Pankration (ancient Greek MMA, essentially) as this was expected of all soldiers at the time. The art combined aspects of wrestling, boxing and no rules (save no eye-gouging or biting) to create a violent sport in which deaths of the loser are not unheard of. If Achilles could lock Ben in a hold from which he could not escape, I would consider it to be an incapacitation victory. However, Ben's also got training in martial arts that are useful in this area as well. Combine that with his size, weight and durability advantages and it's an easy win for Grimm.

 

[Shotaro]

No.

Let's put this in the best case scenario for Achilles: Ben doesn't know about the heel. Lets look at what Achilles has as an Ancient Greek warrior. He's armed with a bronze sword and a bronze tipped spear. Ben's made of living rock. He's not doing to be doing much damage with those weapons. So he's not going to be putting Ben down like that. His bronze armour, though forged by a God isn't likely to stand up to The Thing for long either. Inside the box, Achilles is screwed.

So, let's look beyond that at other skills Achilles is likely to posess. He's going to be at the limits of human strength, endurance and athleticism because Myrmidons strike me as the type of people who train like insane motherfuckers, and also he wears heavy armour and runs around in it. However let us consider the implications of Achilles divine durability. Muscles are actually considerably stronger than whey are able to show. This is because the human body would literally tear itself apart if the muscles used 100% of their strength. Tendons, bones and the muscles themselves can't take it. For Achilles though this isn't an issue. He can't be injured anywhere other than one ankle. It is reasonable to assume that he's able to demonstrate Superhuman strength because of this. However, he's not going to be in the league of Ben Grimm, and he's going to have trouble doing any damage to his rocky form.

We must also assume that Achilles is skilled at Pankration (ancient Greek MMA, essentially) as this was expected of all soldiers at the time. The art combined aspects of wrestling, boxing and no rules (save no eye-gouging or biting) to create a violent sport in which deaths of the loser are not unheard of. If Achilles could lock Ben in a hold from which he could not escape, I would consider it to be an incapacitation victory. However, Ben's also got training in martial arts that are useful in this area as well. Combine that with his size, weight and durability advantages and it's an easy win for Grimm.

Excellent, thanks for answering that question, it to me was the only question that mattered in this fight.

I vote for GRIMM

 

[Richard Blonoff]

A lot of people view Grimm as a big hulking brute, but he is a fairly smart guy. He is a college graduate who went into the army and had pilot and astronaut training. Not to mention his college roommate and close friend is the genius scientist Reed Richards. One would assume he has heard the legend of Achilles.

If you take the no prior knowledge rule of the tournament literally, it comes down to a battle of attrition. Achilles isn't going to hurt Grimm with his weapons. Grimm can withstand armor piercing rounds, edged weapons made out of bronze aren't going to hurt him. Achilles isn't going to be able to hurt him hand to hand either. Remix brought up Pankration, a solid point to Achilles' potential fighting skills but read this snippet.

Hand to hand combat-Due to his time in both the military and his time in gangs, Grimm became very skilled in hand to hand combat. His fighting style incorporates techniques from boxing, wrestling, judo, jujutsu, and street-fighting.

Grimm probably couldn't do much damage to Achilles, but due to his transformation he can last longer. This is from his well written bio.

Enhanced lung capacity and superhuman stamina-Due to the transformation, The Thing's muscles generate fewer fatigue toxins during physical activity. It also allows him to hold his breath for a much longer period of time than that of the average human

Achilles would succumb to exhaustion before Grimm, allowing the big man to take the match.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think Thing takes this without too much of a fuss. Aside from being nearly invulnerable, Achilles doesn't have anything else going for him. That's not to say that it's not a cool power, but he doesn't have any other superhuman powers and Thing is pretty much invulnerable to whatever attack Achilles has.

Achilles doesn't have enchanted weapons that can pierce Thing's rocky hide, he doesn't have Adamantium blades, he can't hurt lightning bolts or any other form of energy. Even if Thing can't hurt him, he doesn't really have to. One good punch from Thing would probably end Achilles hurtling several miles. Or, he could grab Achilles and simply impale him into the ground as if her were a lawn dart and bury him so deep that Achilles doesn't have the leverage to pull himself out. Fight's over.

Plus, there's still the whole heel bit, which is among the most well known aspects of any character in all of Greek mythology. Achilles would have to devote a lot of energy to protect his only vulnerable spot, plus he'd have to contend with the fact that he doesn't have the physical strength or weaponry to do any damage to Grimm. It'd only be a matter of time before Thing was ultimately able to get the upper hand. While Achilles is the better and more skilled fighter, that doesn't mean jack if you can't hurt the person you're fighting or otherwise render them immobile.