Are there better matches on the card? Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that they're any less important. Say what you will, but Jericho-Trips ultimately became a throw away match. You're going to say it blew off a feud, and I disagree, but through history, matches that have been for titles have been more important than those with non-titles.
Yeah, but not throughout RECENT history, and the Edge/Cena match is only a little over a year old.
Plus, we're not arguing which match is more important, we're arguing which match is better, so that's a moot point anyway.
If Jericho-Triple H was so damn important, why didn't it finish off the card, JMT?
You know what match got the most time on that show? Yep, you guessed it... Chris Jericho vs. HHH. So that alone should tell you just how "important" this match was... it was given more time than any other match on the card, including the last match, which was a World Title match as you already know.
Besides, just because something isn't the last match on a show doesn't take away its importance or quality. What was the best, most important match at Wrestlemania 25: HHH vs. Randy Orton (the last match, for the WWE Championship) or Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker?
You know, sometimes I really do wonder if you read the whole argument. Does this not ring any bells?
Say what you will, but getting the belt off John Cena was important, no, necessary at this point. It gave Cena something to do with the mid card, and eventually led Edge back to SD, where he feuded with Jeff Hardy.
Just because there's a logical reasoning to something, Tenta, that doesn't make the feud/match more intriguing. The fact of the matter is, an already played-out, boring feud led to yet another played-out, boring feud. Did it make sense? Sure it did, but they still could have gone another way and gave us something that was actually fresh and entertaining.
Oh, I'm sorry, I was just rephrasing it the way you meant to put it. Again, you're knocking Edge and Cena for having this match to blow off the feud, and rightfully do so, but you're defending the WWE basically doing the same thing with Trips and Jericho? Right.
That makes no sense, Tenta. I'm not knocking Cena/Edge because they had a "blow off" match; I'm knocking the fact that WWE rehashed a feud that was well over with and that no one wanted to see again.
Like I said in my last post, if this were their blow-off feud to end it all... then man, what a shitty ending to let someone from the outside come in and take all the heat, instead of giving the feud resolving finish.
But it was the two same guys working against each other, something you chide Cena and Edge for later in the debate again.
But they're different characters, Tenta... what do you not get about that? Had Cena turned heel and Edge babyface, then it wouldn't be such a drag to see them feud again, because it would be from a completely different perspective from the characters and audience.
Bullshit. Half the reason he got so much heat, frankly, was because of his thing with Stephanie McMahon. McMahon got him that heat, period, in an era in which people absolutely hated that woman.
And Lita (and Vicki Guerrero later on) got Edge all his heat. Heat is heat though; doesn't matter where it comes from. As long as its there, it adds to the feuds/matches, and the fact of the matter is, no wrestler on the roster in 2000, the hottest year in pro wrestling history, had more heat than HHH and Stephanie McMahon. Nobody.
Hell, what was the storyline built around, JMT? Oh yeah, that's right, Jericho hating Stephanie. Not so much about Y2J and Triple H, but Y2J and Stephanie, really.
Not really. The feud all started on that Raw where Jericho beat HHH. That's where it all started, man. And when the feud started back up a couple of months later, Jericho started taking pop shots at HHH's wife, to get under HHH's skin.
Look, Triple H didn't need the win. He had three months in which he demolished the WWE Roster, and took on every name. He didn't even the lose the match to lose his title, Vince McMahon did the honors. I highly doubt that losing that contest would have done that much to his credibility, and what's more, he could have gone over Angle, which in fact he did anyway. Jericho wasn't doing much of anything, and after this match, was fed right back to the mid card. He needed that win to cement himself as a main eventer. And Triple H just didn't give it to him.
Dude, like I told you before, back then WWE was actually planning ahead of time. The HHH/Jericho feud was to see if Jericho could be depended on as a main event caliber wrestler; however, once it was done with, WWE had other plans for HHH and the World Title scene that didn't involve Jericho, so it would have made no sense to let Jericho beat HHH and then have HHH feud against Angle and have World Title matches in the process.
And Edge and Cena didn't?
No, they didn't. This match did nothing for their characters. They were the same before it, and the same after it.
Part of the reason this match was so fucking great was because it took everything possible to keep them down. It was literally a case of throwing everything at each other, until Show came in and did his thing. While Jericho came off as tough, but a clean loser, Cena came off as a man who got robbed, and Edge came off as an oppurtunist. Characters, meet your quota.
The match was a cartoony spot fest, Tenta. That's what it was. There was no blood; just two guys walking around beating each other up with gimmicks. It did absolutely nothing for either character. As I said... they were the same before and the same after, and they're basically still the same today, over a year later, still drawing the same pathetic numbers for WWE.
Also, how do you figure Jericho lost cleanly? Stephanie interfered countless times in the match, man. That is far from a clean win for HHH.
Oh, and if Jericho looked so great, why was he stuck in the mid card immediately after this match? Right, he was needed in the mid card
Because that was the plan. They wanted to build Jericho up more before putting him in the World Title picture. That's absolutely the best way to build someone up and you know it. Put mid-carder against main-eventer, mid-carder loses but looks like a warrior, and then have mid-carder dominate the mid-card until it's time to bring him up to the main event. Textbook 101 in professional wrestling, Tenta.
There was s tory, you just refuse to acknowledge it. The story is of two men who hate one another, who want to put the other one out of commission, and despite their best efforts, the other man won't give up, out of sheer hatred.
Okay, let's say you're right... what a shitty ending to that story, man. What if you were watching The Dark Knight and the whole movie we're watching Batman vs. Joker, and when Batman is about to put Joker away, Bane shows up and kills Batman. How would you feel about the ending to that story, Tenta?
Again, plenty of story, but because it's beyond Attitude Era, it can't be good, right?
There have been plenty of feuds I've enjoyed since the Attitude Era. Don't make assumptions like that; makes your already weak argument even weaker.
Right... Would you say Hogan was participating in the Six Man Tag at Bash at the Beach in 1996? He was a member of Hall and Nash's team, but didn't actually wrestle, did he? Do i consider it pathetic he performed the most memorable moment? Fuck no.
So, basically, you're comparing one of, if not THE, biggest moments in pro wrestling history to Edge vs. Cena at Backlash 2009? Excuse me for a second.....
Seriously Tenta, how are those two even remotely the same? Hogan was apart of that feud the entire time, we just didn't know it until the leg drop, and then the nWo feud against WCW continued from there. Cena/Edge/Big Show is completely different story.
Except it really wasn't. It just happened in an era of better overall product, so you allow your nostalgic feelings to blur your judgement. Quite typical, really.
Once again, terrible assumptions. From 2002 to this point, there are PLENTY of feuds and matches that I dug more than anything from the WWF's Attitude Era. Edge vs. Cena just isn't one of them, sorry.
Bullshit. It carried the WWE during lean times, and again, didn't have the benefit of an overall better product. You may not like it, and I expected you wouldn't, but the thing is, you're so biased towards the Attitude Era, it really isn't funny.
Explain to me what I've ever said that would show I'm "biased" towards the Attitude Era? You can't do it. The thing is, you have to resort to comments like that because you know I'm disproving every single point you bring up. But it's not going to help you, Tenta. People will be able to see who's right and who's wrong here, and who brings up the better points.
An objectional fan, who knows better, will know Edge/Cena was better than Triple H/Jericho.
And you cite ME as having personal preference in this debate? Give me a break, dude.
Yeah, because Triple H loves to put himself over at the expense of others. See: Fully Loaded 2000. Oh wait...
I agree with you here, but Fully Loaded is not a good example where HHH shouldn't have gone over and did. The right man one that night, as I've explained already plenty of times.
And this all got him how far in the WWE? Exactly, it wasn't until 2009 he started to perform his best shit. When he got away from all that goofy, downright unnecessary stuff.
Again, PERSONAL PREFERENCE, eh Tenta? See how I can throw that right back at you?
But anyway, Jericho's best work is far from his recent shit. He was great as Lionheart, he was great as Y2J, and everything else he's done. When Chris Jericho gets inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame, you will see more highlights from his Y2J period than any other. Guaranteed.
I'll admit, Edge didn't do much, he was more of a transition champion. But to get there, and to Punk/Hardy, which even you marked out to, you had to get through this, and this was the gateway that led to it. Plain and simple, without this feud, we probably don't have Edge/Hardy/Punk's saga, which we never got to see Edge's ultimate part in, because he got injured. I think he would have meant more had he not gotten injured.
Dude, that makes no sense. So you're saying that there's absolutely no way Punk and Hardy could have feuded over the belt if Edge wasn't the one who Hardy had to beat to make it happen? Ridiculous point, man.
This feeling that everything needs to change... Don't see where you get it from. You have two over characters, who are at their best, and having one last match to blow things off.
But they're the exact same characters, saying the exact same promos, and having the exact same matches. What's good about redundancy, man? Nothing, is what.
The only real difference between Triple H and Jericho was that they were playing heels/faces differently.
Which is a
HUGE difference.
That's the only thing; Jericho was still the brash loudmouth, Triple H was still the cerebral assasin. The only thing that changed was the face/heel alignment, otherwise it was the exact same characters.
You forgot to add that Jericho had Stephanie on his side, and that the fans HATED Chris Jericho and LOVED HHH. Do you not see how much of a difference that makes, in feuds AND matches?
No, you clearly don't get it. The Tupelo Brawls were really more of a, as you'd probably put it, "cartoonish" thing.
But it was still innovative at the time, correct?
Well, thanks for pulling the "I'm an ECW Mark, so I'm better than all of you" card.
Explain how I did that, Tenta? All I said was that not much is going to interest me if I've already seen it before, and seen it done BETTER. How is that acting like an ECW mark in the least bit?
Sure, you may have not liked it, but it wasn't like the WWE was catering to you. They have their own audience, with different standards, who probably loved it. Say what you will, but the crowd went nuts when Cena FU'ed Edge into the crowd. Combined, that was probably the biggest pop of these two matches, period.
Yeah, WWE was catering to an audience that is very young, and also to an audience that didn't even have half as much to them as WWE had when they were catering to when Jericho and HHH had their feud.
I'm sorry... You're expecting realism in wrestling? Yeah, get back to me when you find how that goes for you. It's wrestling, and seriously, get over some of the otherwise insignificant shit.
So I guess it's terrible as a fan to have standards, huh Tenta? Sorry if I bitch whenever Hornswoggle runs through a wall, or when anything else happens that takes me completely out of the show/match.
Fine, I'll go back to the 80s, and tell folks, "Hey, don't do this match! Edge and Cena need it later!"
Explain how this statement isn't completely ridiculous on your part and how it helps your argument in any way, shape or form?
Seriously, what do you want me to do? So what LMS matches have been done before? And for the record, no, it wasn't like everyone of them, not nearly like Triple H's and Jericho's were. At the least, Edge and Cena had innovative spots. I'm pretty sure this is how the talk over how this match was gonna go went like this.
Like I said... I'll take raw intensity over cartoony, over-the-top nonsense any day of the week. And I'm pretty sure most fans, past and present, feel the same way.
"Well, we need a chair spot"
"Ooh, yeah, and tables, totally need that, too."
"And while we're at it, we can do that spot where we hit each with weapons at the same time. No one's gonna remember that was done a year ago by Rock and Mick"
"Oh, good call. Hey Hunter, think I can go over on this one. I could use it."
"Pfft. Keep dreaming, kid."
See my point? All of the cliches were hit by Triple H and Jericho before, too. You just, you know, have to gloss over that for your debate.
No, I don't see your point, because it doesn't make sense. Sure, "cliches" were brought into the match, as they are in every single wrestling match in history (every time there's an Irish Whip in a match, that's a cliche), but not many matches throughout history match the excitement, drama and intensity of Jericho vs. HHH from Fully Loaded 2000. Cena vs. Edge from Backlash certainly isn't one of them.
Right, I'm sure that was in their mind when Chris Jericho was then pushed way down the card after his KotR match that next year. Let's face it, Paul Heyman had an agenda to put over "His boys" Chris Benoit and Jericho, and that was the only reason Jericho even sniffed the main event. I mean, let's be honest; before Paul, he was jobbing to Benoit. After Paul... He's wrestling for the World Title?
Like I said, long terms plans.. they did exist back then, Tenta. Maybe it was Paul Heyman who gave Jericho an extra compliment backstage, but I'm certain without the Jericho/HHH feud people like Stephanie, HHH, and Vince wouldn't have been as trust worthy with Jericho as they were to give him a main event push and become the very first Undisputed Champion in WWE history.
Yeah, I don't buy that. TV matches were better, but otherwise, PPV matches were pretty damn equal.
I won't deny WWE has had their moments with certain matches and feuds these past few years, but it's not as consistent as it was back then, and you know it.
Well, no shit, man, but it was fucking revolutionary for the time, and the most remembered matches of the 2000 Year. It won the 2000 MOTY from PWI.
As I told you, I'll take drama and intensity in matches over huge spot fest any damn day. And I firmly believe most fans are the same exact way, which is why most main event feuds are built around drama and intensity.
You seem to discredit all of these matches, for some bullshit reasons and such, so I’ll just make your job plenty simpler and just give you:
Rock VS Triple H, Iron Man Match
The Armageddon Hell in a Cell
Benoit VS. Jericho, Backlash
All of which are either better matches, or more memorable. Say what you will, but all of the matches I mentioned before, and these ones, stick out to fans more than Jericho-Trips
I'm not discrediting them at all. They're all good matches, but none are as good as HHH vs. Chris Jericho. The fact of the matter is, Jericho vs. HHH is brought up by fans of that era more so than any of those matches. You ask people what are your favorite matches from Jericho? The Fully Loaded match will be brought up. You ask people what are your favorite matches from HHH? The Fully Loaded match will be brought up.
Now, ask people what they're favorite matches from Edge and Cena are; I sincerely doubt you get a lot of answers than bring up the Backlash match.
Right. How dare Edge and Cena displease the fans of a Wrestling Forum? Look, in case you haven't realized, this is a pretty smarky forum, of which few people are going to give Cena his just due. You really think I care about their opinion? I'll take the word of PWI, or the Wrestling Observer, who did nominate it for MOTY candidacy, as well as the sources who say this was one of the best PPV matches of 2009. Going all smarky shows absolutely nothing, JMT.
Oh, horse shit, Tenta. This forum is easily one of the biggest WWE fan favorite on the entire internet. If it's so "smarky" as you put it, then why does TNA hatred surpass everything here? If it's so "smarky," then how come the ROH/International Section doesn't get more topics?
If by raw and intense, you mean absolutely overrated, and did nothing for Chris Jericho or Triple H's career, I would totally agree with you.
LOL
Mr. "I'm unbiased enough to say Jericho vs. HHH is a great match, but you're too much of a smark living in yesteryear to realize how great Edge vs. Cena" now wants to call HHH vs. Jericho overrated? Strange.
The Trips/Steph argument I'll take. It did progress that story, which to me was all about the McMahons keeping each other on television, because they love the attention.
Back then it wasn't a bad thing to have Steph on television. She was a great character at the time.
Elevated Jericho? It took Heyman coming on the booking committee for Jericho to get a legitimate shot at the main event. Otherwise, he was stuck at the mid card, with the mid card belt, in mid card matches, against mid card workers. Some main event wrestler there
You're thinking of CM Punk, my man, not Chris Jericho.
Honestly, do you think Paul Heyman seriously had enough pull in the WWF back then to push Jericho to beat The Rock and Steve Austin in one night to become the first Undisputed Champion? Again, excuse me, excuse me...
There, feel much better.
Different era, you're comparing apples to oranges, and being in a better era does not a better match make.
That wasn't my point. If something is truly "brilliant," as you claim the feud between Edge and Cena was, then the numbers would have risen drastically. The fact is, Tenta, that people will tune in to watch brilliant television.
Edge won is the point. The feud was resolved, because they have yet to meet each other, and at least in the eyes of the fans, Edge was the better man, and won the war.
How was the feud resolved? You say Edge was the better man, but he couldn't defeat Cena by himself. He needed the Big Show. How in the World does that make Edge the better man?
Yeah, again, I wouldn't buy that you'd give any credit to a post Attitude ERA WWE.
I've given plenty of love to post Attitude Era WWE throughout my time on this forum. That's a fact, man.
Look, say what you will, but you didn't even talk that much about the actual matches, except for calling it "unrealistic". News flash, JMT; it's the wrestling business, and if you really want realism, I suggest a good shrink is in order.
So, as a wrestling fan.. I'm never supposed to suspend disbelief? It's wrong of me to do that?
I'm a man who believes that when you look at wrestling, you have to have an objective standpoint to everything you see.
And I do have an objective stand-point. You know who two of my favorite wrestlers are in WWE? Edge and John Cena. Don't believe me? Ask Tdigle and anyone who has had long conversations with me personally about the business. I'm a big fan of both these guys, but I did not like the fact that WWE decided to rehash their feud past the unbelievably great Unforgiven match.
You don't have to love everything, but certainly keep an open mind to all products. If you don't like something, that's personally ok, but when you try to present your beliefs as stated fact and observance, that's where I get extremely pissed off.
So, you haven't done the exact same thing within this debate? You're saying that Edge vs. Cena is better than Jericho vs. HHH. You're putting that over as a fact, just as I am in saying that Jericho vs. HHH is better than Edge vs. Cena. For you to bitch and moan about me doing the same thing you're doing is so hypocritical, man.
I'll admit that it's a debate, and that your job is to make the other side look, at least implicitly, worse than yours.
Of course it is, and I'm doing just that, in an honest form. What do you want me to say, man? I TRULY love the Jericho vs. HHH match, and I TRULY did not like Cena vs. Edge at Backlash. That is honestly how I feel, and all I'm doing in this debate is expressing why I feel the way I feel. I don't understand what you're getting so upset about.
That said, I'm willing to go out of my way, and have done so in this debate already, in conceding the following points.
1. I have conceded the overall product of the Attitude Era was better than overall product of the era in which we're involved in now.
2. I have also conceded that Triple H-Chris Jericho is a great match, and that even though I find to not be as good as John Cena-Edge, that it still has merit of being a fantastic match.
3. Consequentially, I've also stated that the feud between Jericho and Triple H was something I liked. Do I think it helped Jericho get to the main event nearly as much as you do? Well, I got about eleven months worth of PPV Events where Jericho could be found in the mid card, so obviously, no I don't. That said, I did find the feud entertaining, and did enjoy the nature of it.
1. Of course you did, because you know it's a fact.
2. Dude, you just got done calling it overrated. How can something be fantastic and overrated at the same time?
3. Good for you. I did as well. But why does it pain you so much that I couldn't enjoy Edge vs. Cena past their Unforgiven match?
That said, it was at this point, where I read this quote I'm about to offer, when I realized there was absolutely no way I was going to get an honest, objectionable standpoint from JMT:
That's how I felt, man. As a fan who has watched since he was a little kid, I'm not going to enjoy something I've already seen, from two guys whose feud should have died nearly two years before the match occurred. Sorry, but I can't force myself to like it. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else because I didn't like the match and they did; I'm just saying it's not something that impresses me. Edge vs. Cena's TLC match... THAT impressed me. However, this Last Man Standing match did not. It's how I feel. Shit, to be quite honest, I HATE the Last Man Standing concept to begin with. It's a fucking drag to watch two wrestlers lay on the ground for 9 seconds for about a dozen times in a match. But Chris Jericho and HHH were able to have a great match under those circumstances and I've always been impressed by it.
Now, I'm going to say, as well, that I'm sure JMT finds this opinion to be both honest and unbiased. JMT, the reason I could prepare a response, even before you could even come with the first fucking post, was simple; you are the same, predictable internet smark who offers a viewpoint of someone who longs for the days past that, frankly, are not coming back. You cite your fanhood to ECW many times through both your posts, as if that's a credential to being a somewhat better fan than I am. JMT, what you fail to realize is that for every bit of a historian buff you are to professional wrestling, I absolutely match you.
Like I said, man, you're making ridiculous assumptions. I've stated here how much I loved the Nexus storyline. I've stated plenty of shit I've liked from both WWE and TNA. Hell, if you look at my top 10 favorite matches of all time, you will see that a lot of them take place from 2002-2009. I don't long for yesteryear. I still find plenty of enjoyment in the business today, but I did not like the fact that Edge vs. Cena continued past their TLC match. I found everything past that a failure compared to that match. That's just how I feel. Doesn't make me "smarky," as you so eloquently put it.
Case in Point: You cite the fight in the audience as a "cartoonish" element of the match, and cite your ECW fanhood to say such a thing.
I did not say because they brawled all over the arena that THAT made the match cartoonish. It was because of a couple of spots during the match, and the ending, why I felt it was cartoonish.
JMT, I'm not sure if you're aware, but The ECW fan, who still holds on to his copy of Barely Legal as he sleeps, like a stuffed pillow? The WWE is no longer gearing its television to that audience, JMT, and holding the Edge/Cena matchup to the perspective of an ECW fan is downright innocuous. You're an old school buff, and remember the Tupelo Concession Stand Brawl well, I assume. So, if you don't mind checking to your memory, was the Edge/Cena brawl more similar to the Memphis interpretation on the matter, or more akin to ECW? Again, we have the case of fan that can't look past his glory days, and acknowledge the good of something that is not built around his era.
You're taking what I said and only reading it in a way you want to. Again, I'm not saying it was the brawl all over the arena that made it cartoonish; I'm saying because since I've seen it before, and since there were ridiculous spots with a TERRIBLE ending in the match, that I did not like the match.
Seriously, what am I saying that's so devastatingly bad here? Do you even know, Tenta, or are you just getting riled up over no reason whatsoever?
Your Contention that this made Chris Jericho a main event name
For all the reasons I cited earlier. Again, we're talking about an era in which Steve Austin was absent from the picture until November, Mick Foley was no longer an active wrestler, The Undertaker's star power had widely diminished, and Kane was doing fuck all in the mid card. If the WWE had really succeeded in making Chris Jericho a main event name, then why did it take him eleven months to compete in the main event again? Simple, because this match did not succeed in pushing him as a main event, as you would like us to believe. As a matter of fact, he went right back to jobbing to Chris Benoit, just like he'd been doing at the beginning of the year.
As I've already explained, it was because WWE was planning for the long term with this match. This match didn't take place to make Jericho a main-eventer right then and there; it took place so the fans could take him more seriously as a main event PROSPECT. And when the time came for him to make that leap to the main event, it was this match people could look back on and trust that with Chris Jericho, you're guaranteed to have a great champion and contender with a match like this under his belt.
Your assertion that the lower ratings fall on the shoulders of Edge-Cena
Where in my statement did I say that, Tenta? I didn't... I'm just saying you can't toss a word like "brilliant" around like that, because if Cena vs. Edge was truly a "brilliant" feud, then WWE's numbers would have been much higher. Let's not forget that the second official night of the feud, the sex celebration segment, is still the highest rating WWE has seen since then. So, people know who Edge and Cena are, just based off that segment alone, and if the feud past that was truly brilliant, then WWE would have continued getting numbers they got that night (or somewhat close to it) whenever they rehashed it, but instead... number consistently went down.
Is utter shit as well. Listen fella, if anything, John Cena and Edge were working to get the WWE out of the hole Triple H and co. dug the company into from 2002-2004. That, friendo, was when the ratings began to slip dramatically. If anything, Cena and Edge proved themselves to be consistent draws, and keep the numbers steady, in the wake of the demolishing job done The Brand Extension Draft, Triple H's ego, and Chris Benoit's double murder suicide. Yes, I suppose you can argue the Benoit situation happened after Edge-Cena had their real feud, but it could have easily hindered the potential for their match at Backlash. Edge and Cena were not to blame for the fall in numbers, that came years before Edge and Cena were legitimate main event names.
Now, I agree that HHH did a lot of terrible shit from 2002-2004 to bring the company down, but WWE could have easily fixed it. As I said... Edge got the rating in the night after he beat Cena, but past that the numbers kept tumbling.
I'm not putting ALL the blame on Cena vs. Edge here, either, for the record. DX was fucking terrible, as were other things about the show. However, I'm just saying, if the feud was brilliant, like you said it was, their segments would have rated much higher. That's a fact, man.
That Triple H and Chris Jericho didn't rely on clichés
Where did I say that? LOL... you couldn't even put a quote under this statement like you did all the others because I never say anything remotely close to it. I'm not even going to address the ridiculous paragraph that followed this.
I can go on, and trust me, I will, we're only into Tuesday. I'm not asking you to debate with no passion, because frankly, that's what makes you good. What I am asking you to do is, for the sake of argument, at least have somewhat of an impartial showing to this match.
Tenta, I do not like the match. I've expressed to you why I feel this way. I'm a fan of both wrestlers, and I'm a fan of some of their previous work, but their Backlash match sucked in comparison to the HHH/Jericho match. What more do you want me to say? That's how I feel; it's completely "impartial" whether you want to admit it or not.