ROH - Nothing More Than A Developmental Promotion?

[The Bearded One]

No problem.

I like to give credit where credit is do.

Only if I wanted to give myself a Spam Infraction.

Fair enough.

I find the majority of people who enjoy it know next to nothing about what pro wrestling really means.

Most ROH fans, I've found, take the term "a little big of knowledge is a dangerous thing" to a whole new level. Many ROH fans love to thump their chest and scream about how much they know about wrestling, because they watch two mediocre guys do poor, unrealistic chain wrestling and do flippys in the ring.

I attack ROH fans because most of them ARE idiots, and deserved to be attacked. I'd rather them be like 8 year wrestling fans, people who watch the show because it entertains them. Which, after all, IS the point of pro wrestling. And while neither the 8 year old, or the common ROH fan, has any idea of what actually MAKES enjoyable wrestling, at least the 8 year old doesn't pretend to.

I hope I am not part of the group of "idiots". I watch any wrestling program, whether it be WWE, TNA, ROH, DGUSA, etc. to be entertained. I watch it because I like the characters and I want to see where they are going to go. I do not complain about certain people going over from a business standpoint because, to be honest, most likely none of us have hardly any real knowledge, if any, of the business, we only think we do. When I complain about somebody losing, I do so because I wanted that wrestler to win because I am a fan of that wrestler.

Well, here I need to make a point.

You have to distinguish between "like" and "think it's good". I didn't do a very good job of that in my last post, so let me do it here. Like anything you want. "Like" to drink drain cleaner, "like" to eat McDonalds food, "like" anything you want. Just don't drink drain cleaner and tell me it's good.

"Like" the wrestling put on by ROH...just don't tell me it's good.

But why would I like something if I don't think its good? I think ROH is good. I, for the most part, enjoy the product they put on. Are there flaws? Of course. But I am able to looks past those flaws because I enjoy the majority of the product. I think its good, but its obviously not your cup of tea, so I won't try to convince you otherwise.

I know exactly what you're saying, but here's the major problem with it.

How many top level guys have chosen to stay in ROH? How many top level guys chose to stay in ECW (the last great minor league)? The answer is easy...NONE of them. Danielson? Gone. Punk? Gone. Joe? Gone. Austin Aries? Left and then got fired. Now apparently this Tyler Black guy...gone. Colt Cabana tried to make it in the WWE. RVD, Taz, Raven, Stevie Richards, Jerry Lynn....ALL of these guys tried their hand in the big time.

Top level? None. I can't say that I blame them, for the same reason most top bands on any independent record label leave the label. And that reason is money. They are able to make much more in the WWE or TNA than they can in the indies, same reason many bands make the jump. They will be aboe to support themselves better while doing the thing they love. Add in the fact that they will wrestle in front of more people, then why would they stay?

It doesn't mean that the indies delelops guys so they can make it big in the WWE or TNA, much like college football teams don't develop players for the NFL. Both try to take what they have and turn it into something that works for them and is successful, to whatever degree they are able to be successful. If the skills translate to the "big leagues", awesome. If not, they have something that works good for them.

Until the day comes that a top ROH talent (who is actually desired by the big leagues) decides he wants to stay in the promotion, how can ROH be seen as anything but a development promotion?

There were reports about a month ago now that TNA were interested in Delirious, although he is not a top guy. If the reports are true he turned down going to TNA in favor of staying in ROH. A middle of the card guy like Delirious, to me at least, would seem more inclined to make the jump, but he didn't.

 

[Slyfox696]

All right, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that ROH wrestlers work the same schedule as WWE wrestlers, but this is just not the case. ROH workers wrestle at most two nights a week, whereas most WWE workers are wrestling a minimum of three nights a week, and they wrestle four nights during a PPV week. This works out to a maximum of 104 days of wrestling a year for ROH workers, while WWE workers wrestle for 170 days out of the year (assuming that there are 14 PPVs a year).

Except most ROH wrestlers don't just work ROH shows, they have other bookings as well. And in order to make a decent living in small time wrestling, you have to work a lot of days.

Now, there are some ROH wrestlers that take independent bookings, but it'd be a stretch to say that they do more than 2 a month. So, that's 128 days out of the year vs. 170...that approximately one and a half month difference is quite significant.

And most independent guys don't get paid very good money at all. I have ZERO sources on this, but I seem to remember that when Samoa Joe was at the height of his indy glory, he was making between $60,000 and $80,000 a year. That really isn't that much money when you pay for all your travel, food and lodgings on your own. And this was arguably the top indy guy in the country. So, if the top indy guy in the country is not making much money short term, how can you ever prepare long term?

My point is you HAVE to work all the time in order see any kind of benefits, and even those are minimal.

All right, let's ditch those professions, as you raise a good point. Instead, let's look at professional lacrosse players and those professional athletes involved in extreme sports (e.g., motocross, skateboarding, and snowboarding). There are absolutely no profitable opportunities in professional lacrosse, while there are very, very few in extreme sports. In fact, the majority of these professional athletes are going to be making less than $20K a year. Their career choices may not be the greatest in terms of providing for their futures, but that they chose these professions proves that people DO go into physically exacting professions because of their passion for it. Why can't this be the case in professional wrestling?

I don't see mass funerals for extreme sports figures and I don't see lacrosse players bodies so wrecked they can barely walk at the age of 50.

Again, you can't compare the two professions because the toll the profession takes on the body is SO much different.

And here's where we come to one of the issues that I initially raised. Would it really be that much of a pleasure wrestling in front of tens of thousands of people when you're essentially a cog in a machine?

Apparently it is, because that's one of the biggest reasons always say they leave the minor leagues. It's why guys like Hogan and Flair can't leave. It's why Bret Hart is working matches with the understanding he can't take any major bumps or risk death.

The thrill of working in front of thousands and millions of people drive people, you can't deny that. If working for the WWE was ONLY about money, then people wouldn't continue to want to go there. There are far more reasons people want to work in the WWE.

Reasons you can't get in ROH.

I've skimmed the rest of your post, but it's basically the same things I've already replied to.

I hope I am not part of the group of "idiots".

Well, that's for you to decide. I've never thought of you as an idiot, but only you can truly answer that.

I do not complain about certain people going over from a business standpoint because, to be honest, most likely none of us have hardly any real knowledge, if any, of the business, we only think we do.

I applaud you for being willing to admit that, but there are people who DO have knowledge of the business that haven't worked in it.

Wrestling is a very transparent business anymore, and at the end of the day, it's just like any other business...the ONLY reason for existence is to make money. In wrestling, that means conning your fans into paying, it always has. There's no great mystery about professional wrestling...they're going to do what will sell you a ticket. And that goes from the WWE, to ROH, to the smallest indy fed around.

But why would I like something if I don't think its good?

Because "good" and "like" are two entirely different things. I like Hungry-Man dinners, but that doesn't mean it's good food.

I think ROH is good. I, for the most part, enjoy the product they put on. Are there flaws? Of course. But I am able to looks past those flaws because I enjoy the majority of the product. I think its good, but its obviously not your cup of tea, so I won't try to convince you otherwise.

To use the same example I've used many times, I used to love Shelton Benjamin. I didn't think he was good, but I enjoyed watching him.

Just because you enjoy something does not mean it's good, and just because something is good doesn't mean you'll enjoy it.

Top level? None. I can't say that I blame them, for the same reason most top bands on any independent record label leave the label. And that reason is money. They are able to make much more in the WWE or TNA than they can in the indies, same reason many bands make the jump. They will be aboe to support themselves better while doing the thing they love. Add in the fact that they will wrestle in front of more people, then why would they stay?

They wouldn't. And that's been my point all along.

If the ROH wasn't the minor leagues, then those guys would stay. But almost every guy who has ever made it to the top of the indy leagues has only used ROH as a stepping stone to go to the WWE or TNA (or WCW).

It doesn't mean that the indies delelops guys so they can make it big in the WWE or TNA, much like college football teams don't develop players for the NFL. Both try to take what they have and turn it into something that works for them and is successful, to whatever degree they are able to be successful. If the skills translate to the "big leagues", awesome. If not, they have something that works good for them.

But both college football/basketball and ROH develop their wrestlers with the understanding they won't keep them for their full career in that sport.

There were reports about a month ago now that TNA were interested in Delirious, although he is not a top guy. If the reports are true he turned down going to TNA in favor of staying in ROH. A middle of the card guy like Delirious, to me at least, would seem more inclined to make the jump, but he didn't.

Delirious has already worked for TNA.

 

[Ferbian]

Yes, but you say that like it's an inherently bad thing, Ferbs, and that's not the case, I'm afraid. If anything, it's a fantastic thing to lay claim to, and certainly noteworthy on their part in being able to look toward the future stars in the industry and say "I made them", or at the very least "I helped make them", in the same vein people now look back on ECW and other defunct promotions.

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing. Sure it's something to applaud that they managed to build the stars that went on to bigger things. But such claims FCW as well as OVW can lay claim to as well.

Before the days of OVW and FCW and other strictly "developmental" leagues, there were in fact developmental territories like the AWA, NWA, Stampede, Mid-Atlantic, Memphis, Georgia Championship, etc. that served as eventual stepping stones to the WWF/E, who eventually emerged as a national superior to the lot of them. That doesn't mean that any of those territories were necessarily failures for it (though some were actually failures for other reasons). If anything, the work given to various wrestlers during their times in the alternative territories help to establish them as the eventual stars they became – the same goes for ROH and the rest of the independent circuit.

Never said Ring of Honor was a failure IDR. I asked whether they should be regarded as a developmental promotion. I acknowledge the old-school promotions that served as a place for something bigger. Especially the NWA related territories that practically had people waiting to become the NWA World Champion. However they were still developmental promotions at best, building talent for something bigger.

ROH may be a platform performance house that's obviously temporary for the would-be breakout stars, but it's a credit to that company for being able to at least start to chisel out the eventual superstar from it's "graduates". If not for their work there, they'd be much greener at the time they'd have been signed (in all likelihood), which may have hindered their potential entirely and as a result, buried a would-be superstar for his inabilities being showcased too early in his career.

Again, nowhere have I discredited Ring of Honors work. I applaud what they're doing, especially the fact that they're building talent to make them able to handle the pressure in an actual promotion worth taking notice to, with a while decent, yet small fan base compared to what could very well be in their future.

While if I would be a wrestler, I would love to go directly to FCW and then to WWE, or completely skip FCW. I still wouldn't say no if I was offered a position in Ring of Honor to create myself for an audience. However it would still mean that I'm developing somewhere, obviously why I call it a developmental promotion.

I'll also note, you can soon add A-Double to that list of future successes, because he's a fantastic wrestling character, and a future champion without a doubt.

Austin Aries already held the Ring of Honor championship twice. I haven't seen much of him, however I guess he could be contracted by either TNA or WWE. But for now, WWE at least has enough to work with, with the new acquisition of Tyler Black.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing. Sure it's something to applaud that they managed to build the stars that went on to bigger things. But such claims FCW as well as OVW can lay claim to as well.

Sure, but they're also strictly developmental leagues that have only come up in recent years. I'm willing to bet you'll find more "stars" in the industry who would have went through ROH or the independent circuit elsewhere than you would those who went through FCW/OVW exclusively.

FCW/OVW is/are a very selective and very new day and age luxury that the WWE have been able to benefit from. Not since the Power Plant with the WCW has a company really had such a reliable farm system to point to, so I still think it's plenty for ROH to be proud of when their big-time guys ink deals with either of the big two.

Never said Ring of Honor was a failure IDR. I asked whether they should be regarded as a developmental promotion. I acknowledge the old-school promotions that served as a place for something bigger. Especially the NWA related territories that practically had people waiting to become the NWA World Champion. However they were still developmental promotions at best, building talent for something bigger.

Just came across as though you thought of the fact they were acting as a developmental league was a failure to me, that's all. No harm no foul, yeah?

Austin Aries already held the Ring of Honor championship twice. I haven't seen much of him, however I guess he could be contracted by either TNA or WWE. But for now, WWE at least has enough to work with, with the new acquisition of Tyler Black.

Yup – he's worked for TNA in the past, too, and had a pretty big stint as Austin Starr with Shelley/Nash back in 2007 as well.

I think he's probably a little too small for the WWE's tastes, but at the same time they've been breaking away from that mold of big and built, so never say never.

 

[The Bearded One]

Well, that's for you to decide. I've never thought of you as an idiot, but only you can truly answer that.


I applaud you for being willing to admit that, but there are people who DO have knowledge of the business that haven't worked in it.

Wrestling is a very transparent business anymore, and at the end of the day, it's just like any other business...the ONLY reason for existence is to make money. In wrestling, that means conning your fans into paying, it always has. There's no great mystery about professional wrestling...they're going to do what will sell you a ticket. And that goes from the WWE, to ROH, to the smallest indy fed around.

Because "good" and "like" are two entirely different things. I like Hungry-Man dinners, but that doesn't mean it's good food.

To use the same example I've used many times, I used to love Shelton Benjamin. I didn't think he was good, but I enjoyed watching him.

Just because you enjoy something does not mean it's good, and just because something is good doesn't mean you'll enjoy it.

They wouldn't. And that's been my point all along.

If the ROH wasn't the minor leagues, then those guys would stay. But almost every guy who has ever made it to the top of the indy leagues has only used ROH as a stepping stone to go to the WWE or TNA (or WCW).

But both college football/basketball and ROH develop their wrestlers with the understanding they won't keep them for their full career in that sport.

Delirious has already worked for TNA.

I would do the individual quote things, but its far too panistaking for me to do it, unless I am completely missing an easy way to do it.

But I still don't understand why you would like something if you don't think its good. Why would you take a bite of food and say "It takes like horse crap, but I think I like it"? For me to like something, I have to think it is, to an extent, good.

Both college teams and ROH may know they're not going to keep the talent forever, but they still don't develop them for success for the "big leagues". They develop the players or wrestlers to work best for the program or promotion. I live in the middle of Gator country, God help me, so I am going to use Urban Meyer as an example. He was asked many times if he was going to work on Tim Tebow's throwing motion to help him have a better chance of succeeding in the NFL, to which Meyer responded no. They had something that obviously worked for them, and saw no reason to change it. They did not develop him to play in the NFL, but developed him to work best for the program. If he makes it in the NFL, fine, if not, the show goes on without him.

To me, that is just like ROH. They are not taking talent and developing it for the sole reason for the talent to make it big. Instead, they are trying to get as many ticket, DVD, PPV, etc. sales as they can with the talent they have. So when they find something that works, like Tebow at UF, they stick with it. They develop the wrestlers to work best for them, so if the skills just so happen to translate to the WWE, awesome. But ROH's intention, I think it is safe to assume, is to get talent to put on the best shows they can, not to develop it for other companies to get. If a wrestler happens to move on, and possibly succeed, in a bigger company, great. If not, the show still goes on.

EDIT: I meant to put this in my original post but I totally forgot. I didn't know Delirious worked for TNA. I looked it up and he wrestled there between 2003 and 2004, before he ever wrestled for ROH. I think its safe to assume that he's grown as a westler since then and would want to go back there to make more money. The fact that he recently turned them down, if the reports are true, should mean that some wrestlers would prefer to stay on the independent level.

 

[Ferbian]

Sure, but they're also strictly developmental leagues that have only come up in recent years. I'm willing to bet you'll find more "stars" in the industry who would have went through ROH or the independent circuit elsewhere than you would those who went through FCW/OVW exclusively.

Of course IDR. There's nothing saying someone has not tasted some kind of developmental, or independent promotion before they even got noticed by WWE and send to their developmental territories. Unless you're big shots, or were noticed through something like MMA / Body Building.

Considering John and Randy both, due to legacy as well as build probably went to OVW almost instantly in their career, however some have definitely tasted independent wrestling beforehand like Ted DiBiase Jr and Pro Wrestling NOAH.

FCW/OVW is/are a very selective and very new day and age luxury that the WWE have been able to benefit from. Not since the Power Plant with the WCW has a company really had such a reliable farm system to point to, so I still think it's plenty for ROH to be proud of when their big-time guys ink deals with either of the big two.

I couldn't agree more FCW and OVW had exposure to actual WWE talent and Hall of Fame wrestlers, FCW have visits from WWE wrestlers on what seems like a monthly occasion, at least a few times a year. So it definitely helps build the talent better because they get to converse and to potentially even work with talent that have tasted WWE spotlight. Much like Joe Hennig I believe it was, that encountered a Heel Jericho and developmental placed Nick Nemeth.

However Ring of Honor is nowhere lost themselves. Occasionally in the past, as well as currently you see TNA guys, (WWE mostly in the past) actually giving Ring of Honor talent the opportunity to work a dark match, a try-out match if you will. Bryan Danielson having quite a handful.

And Ring of Honor isn't even the only promotion that had the honors in the past. A.J Styles, you may know that he worked one or two matches in WWE once before going to TNA.

Just came across as though you thought of the fact they were acting as a developmental league was a failure to me, that's all. No harm no foul, yeah?

Sure, no harm no foul, mate.

Yup – he's worked for TNA in the past, too, and had a pretty big stint as Austin Starr with Shelley/Nash back in 2007 as well.

I'm awful on TNA prior to 2009 mate. However I would say it obviously mean that TNA is gonna be his first go to place, unless Aries has the attitude and all that again, that caused them to suspend him. (How can you not love Wikipedia at times like this?)

But then again, shitty attitude doesn't boat well in WWE either.

I think he's probably a little too small for the WWE's tastes, but at the same time they've been breaking away from that mold of big and built, so never say never.

1.75 CM or 5 ft 9 inches isn't really that awful for a wrestler. He has a decent build though. I mean CM Punk isn't that big either, so I would say there's still chances, considering WWE isn't all big guys anymore for the big material.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I don't see mass funerals for extreme sports figures and I don't see lacrosse players bodies so wrecked they can barely walk at the age of 50.

Again, you can't compare the two professions because the toll the profession takes on the body is SO much different.

No, I'd say the comparison is apt. The physical toll that such sports as lacrosse, motocross, and snowboarding take is the same as that in wrestling. I don't see how bumps take a greater toll on the body than body checks or free falls.

Also, the shorter schedule argument might work for lacrosse, but it doesn't work for the extreme sports that I mentioned. Not only are these year-round extreme sports just as physically demanding as wrestling, they're about 1000 times riskier.

Apparently it is, because that's one of the biggest reasons always say they leave the minor leagues. It's why guys like Hogan and Flair can't leave. It's why Bret Hart is working matches with the understanding he can't take any major bumps or risk death.

This is just untrue. Both Chris Jericho and Mick Foley have stated in their autobiographies that their reasons for going to the big leagues were purely financial ones.

Also, why would try to support your argument with two men whose financial difficulties are well-documented? Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan can't leave because they need the money. I have no clue about Bret Hart's financial situation, so I can't comment on him.

[QUOTE\The thrill of working in front of thousands and millions of people drive people, you can't deny that.[/QUOTE]

The thrill of working in front of thousands and millions drives people when it's at least somewhat on your own terms.

If working for the WWE was ONLY about money, then people wouldn't continue to want to go there. There are far more reasons people want to work in the WWE.

YES, they would. Who in their right mind would turn down a mid-six-figure paycheck to do something that they have the ability to do when the alternatives are not as financially rewarding?

 

[Slyfox696]

I would do the individual quote things, but its far too panistaking for me to do it, unless I am completely missing an easy way to do it.

Not really, you just have to write the quote thing. Hmm...maybe I can fix that though.

Thanks for the idea!

But I still don't understand why you would like something if you don't think its good. Why would you take a bite of food and say "It takes like horse crap, but I think I like it"? For me to like something, I have to think it is, to an extent, good.

Ask the millions of people who eat McDonalds hamburgers. They can't possibly think they're good, but they obviously enjoy them.

To me, that is just like ROH. They are not taking talent and developing it for the sole reason for the talent to make it big.

No, but they are providing the arena for these "players" to improve their craft and make it big, and do so with the understand that some day, if a wrestler gets popular enough, he will leave.

It's no different than minor league baseball. You put out the guys who will help you win and sell tickets, and understand if the players do it well enough, you won't have them anymore.

EDIT: I meant to put this in my original post but I totally forgot. I didn't know Delirious worked for TNA. I looked it up and he wrestled there between 2003 and 2004, before he ever wrestled for ROH. I think its safe to assume that he's grown as a westler since then and would want to go back there to make more money.

If I'm not mistaken, he also made a couple of appearances in either 2006 or 2007. There's a YouTube video of Delirious vs. Samoa Joe from 2005 as well.

The fact that he recently turned them down, if the reports are true, should mean that some wrestlers would prefer to stay on the independent level.

Unless TNA was offering him a really low salary/a low position on the card, and he would earn more by working at the indy level, which is certainly a possibility since he's now the booker of ROH, if I read correctly.

But it doesn't change the fact if you want to make the BIG money, or work in front of the BIG crowds, you can't do that in ROH. And most wrestlers want to have their shot at that.

 

[The Bearded One]

Not really, you just have to write the quote thing. Hmm...maybe I can fix that though.

Thanks for the idea!

Ask the millions of people who eat McDonalds hamburgers. They can't possibly think they're good, but they obviously enjoy them.

No, but they are providing the arena for these "players" to improve their craft and make it big, and do so with the understand that some day, if a wrestler gets popular enough, he will leave.

It's no different than minor league baseball. You put out the guys who will help you win and sell tickets, and understand if the players do it well enough, you won't have them anymore.

If I'm not mistaken, he also made a couple of appearances in either 2006 or 2007. There's a YouTube video of Delirious vs. Samoa Joe from 2005 as well.

Unless TNA was offering him a really low salary/a low position on the card, and he would earn more by working at the indy level, which is certainly a possibility since he's now the booker of ROH, if I read correctly.

But it doesn't change the fact if you want to make the BIG money, or work in front of the BIG crowds, you can't do that in ROH. And most wrestlers want to have their shot at that.

No problem. It would be perfect for lazy bastards such as myself.

But you and I have been getting really off subject with our rounds of competitive banter. It is completely different than minor league baseball. Most minor league baseball teams are there just to develop the players for the major leagues. That's why major league teams have minor league affiliates. They keep those teams in their system because they develop the players for the top level team.

ROH does not do this. They do not just take wrestlers and try to develop them for a successful future in one of the bigger companies. They try to put on the best shows they can with the wrestlers they have. Do they know that wrestlers will leave for the big time promotions? I think I can safely say yes. But it doesn't mean that they are in the business of helping a wrestler develop to have a successful career in the WWE or TNA.

Of course you can't make big money and wrestle in front of big crowds in ROH. But it doesn't mean ROH develops the wrestlers so that they one day can.

 

[SpoodBeest]

The reason I look at ROH as a below average poromotion is because it seems it wants to take itself seriously as a main promotion like WWE or TNA but it's about as close to any other obscure indy promotion thats out there. Other than me seeing it on the Fight Network a few times while visiting my dad I have yet to see it on television on a weekly basis that allows me to follow it any consistent chronological order. Besides when I'm not at my father's I don't ever see it anyways so in that aspect it's not as a big of promotion that it makes itself out to be. Also when it does come on Fight Network it doesn't help that they air the most random of episodes from any timeline in the promotion's existence. Again most fans cannot follow ROH in a consistent and chronological order to keep up with what's going on, a problem that you will never see with WWE or TNA.

The other issue why ROH can be looked down upon is because of it's overall lack of story-lines and character development. When you really look at an ROH show all you are getting are a bunch of generic wrestlers who go out their and face each other. Nothing more and nothing less. Also at anytime I'm sure those who remain to be on the ROH roster would jump at and accept an offer from WWE or TNA if either of those two promotions would give them the chance. Such as CM Punk and Daniel Bryan (Bryan Danielson) in WWE and Desmond Wolfe (Nigel McGuinness) in TNA. So it could be considered a developmental promotion that gives wrestlers some kind of notoriety in the hope that they will someday be called up to where the big boys play. Other than that you could basically put ROH on par with any other obscure promotion that is in the minor leagues of professional wrestling.