Rise and fall of WCW

[absent]

I just watched the Rise and Fall of WCW documentary and it seemed to place quite a bit of blame for the product's downturn on Kevin Nash being involved in creative/booking, Vince Russo being the writer and Jeff Jarrett being placed as a top guy and world champion.

Whilst I'm sure they could all take responsibility in some partial way, it seems a little suspect that blame on those three is all sandwiched together in the same portion of the documentary as those three are all obviously instrumental behind the scenes in the WWE's only current competition. And besides blaming the management structure of the parent company, the doco does wag a very large finger at those three in particular particularly in as a combination.

Can you truly legitimately lump those three together at once and blame them, or this just the WWE's politicking and spin to bury people at the top/in control of TNA?

 

[Highway Boots]

Being as this DVD set isn't released until next week, I'll reserve judgment on what spon they are putting on the DVD. I'll just say that the downfall was a combination of Bischoff leaving and Ted Turner becoming disinterested in the franchise and hiring some dude who didn't give a rats arse whether or not the programming was good. Also Russo only gets the bad rap because he left WWE at the their peak in the attitude era to join the rival. It's just a case of "leave and we'll bury ya forever" which some top superstars threatened with every so often.

The real culprit behind the downfall was a series of events and certain people in authority that caused chaos instead of preventing it.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

Being as this DVD set isn't released until next week, I'll reserve judgment on what spon they are putting on the DVD. I'll just say that the downfall was a combination of Bischoff leaving and Ted Turner becoming disinterested in the franchise and hiring some dude who didn't give a rats arse whether or not the programming was good. Also Russo only gets the bad rap because he left WWE at the their peak in the attitude era to join the rival. It's just a case of "leave and we'll bury ya forever" which some top superstars threatened with every so often.

The real culprit behind the downfall was a series of events and certain people in authority that caused chaos instead of preventing it.

Nope. The real culprit was the AOL/Time Warner merger. They(AOL/TW) didn't want wrestling on their network even though it was getting better rating than just about anything else on TNT. They had plans on killing it from the very beginning. They looked down on wrestling even though it help make the network what it was.

I think Russo blows, Jarrett is extremely overrated and Nash is strictly self serving but none of them had anything to do with it. Neither did Bischoff. Once the merger took place the countdown to the death of WCW had started.

 

[absent]

Nope. The real culprit was the AOL/Time Warner merger. They(AOL/TW) didn't want wrestling on their network even though it was getting better rating than just about anything else on TNT. They had plans on killing it from the very beginning. They looked down on wrestling even though it help make the network what it was.

They do make that point quite clearly, but before that the apparent downturn in the quality of the product seems to be largely targeted at a combination of Nash/Russo/Jarrett.

 

[JJYanks121]

I have seen the DVD and I dont' think they covered the downfall of WCW well either. What they failed to address, and what I think the main problem was, is that, other than Goldberg, WCW built NO ONE. They were a company built to kick ass short term, but when you bring in guys already past their prime, they can draw to get your numbers up, but long term, they won't have staying power. Had they been aptly run, and the same could be said about TNA with their Main Event Mafia storyline, they would have created 1 or 2 megafaces to go up against the supergroup. The WWE ultimately beat WCW with that concept. Stone Cold went up against the Boss who created a group and then a supergroup to ultimately take him down, but he kept fighting and eventually took THEM down. It was the ultimate story, and despite my personal liking for the Rock over Stone Cold, I have to respect that story as perfectly done. WCW, however, never found that big face to take it down. Sure, you had Sting and then Goldberg, but neither was done well (Sting with the botched screwjob where Brett comes out early), and Goldberg with the rushed main event and then the tasing. I do think the Jarrett part of the DVD was a shot at the competition and solely that because by the time Jarrett was champion, the company was crap anyway. And again, perhaps the main reason was the unwillingness of the big guys to see the big picture. They wanted their spots in having the most tv time, most time with the belt, etc., that they didn't do what's best for business and it cost them.

Over time, I've learned of a lot of the downfalls of WCW. The DVD covers some of them but doesn't spend enough time really divulging into them so as to save face perhaps. Ultimately, we all know many of the reasons WCW folded and the DVD covers a few. Overall I was mixed on the DVD as I thought, even if it was biased, Eric Bischoff's book told more of the story than this DVD did. It covered a lot of things but not too many in depth, and it spent too much time on Goldberg because they got him to do the DVD. If you watch it, you will find some decent information, and I learned a few new things, but you'll miss out on a lot. The DVD makes it seem like the company was amazing and then in 1999 it went to shit, but indications are from other sources that it was a "big boys club" once Bischoff took over, and you couldn't get your position if you weren't one of them. That started in like 1993-1994, but since they were winning the ratings, it was ignored. Once the writing went down and ratings suffered, then the problems showed up more, but they were always there. Plus, barely a mention of STING! Biggest face ever? Not according to this DVD. It's not bad, but not great, I'd say watch it and make your own judgement.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

They do make that point quite clearly, but before that the apparent downturn in the quality of the product seems to be largely targeted at a combination of Nash/Russo/Jarrett.

I didn't see that yet. I thought they were talking about those 3 being the ultimate downfall. I apologize.

That said I think the downfall in product started when the mid carders started to leave. Losing Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, Waltman, and Saturn was a pretty big hit. They started losing the guys who could really work.

IMO the product was already going down when Russo got there. Jarrett should not have been a main event guy just yet. Nash is Nash. None of them really helped the product much. But I wouldn't blame them for the downturn because it started before they arrived. If anything Bischoff should have done a better job building stars for the future instead of listening to the Hogan and Nash so much.

I can't really answer your question about WWE's motive behind this until I see it. It wouldn't surprise me though. I can't wait to see it.

 

[absent]

That said I think the downfall in product started when the mid carders started to leave. Losing Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, Waltman, and Saturn was a pretty big hit. They started losing the guys who could really work.

Totally agree there from a wrestling fans point of view. It was the undercard that held WCW together as a wrestling show. The main event guys were great from an entertainment point of view, but it was the undercard that made it a great wrestling show.

I have the same issue as a viewer with TNA, I watch the undercard for the wrestling, I can fast forward through the main events just to find the resolution to the story line, the drawn out "how they get there through the match" is somewhat boring. Generally poor writing good wrestling for the undercard, poor wrestling good writing for the main events.

IMO the product was already going down when Russo got there. Jarrett should not have been a main event guy just yet. Nash is Nash. None of them really helped the product much. But I wouldn't blame them for the downturn because it started before they arrived. If anything Bischoff should have done a better job building stars for the future instead of listening to the Hogan and Nash so much.

Gotta agree with you there also. I always considered Jarrett a footnote in WCW history, someone who was champion of an already sinking ship. Same with Russo, it was dying by the time he was there. Nash, he would have never been welcomed back into the WWE at the time. It had lost too much ground before those three had tandem control but it just seemed a bit rich to point the finger at them for the creative fall and demise of the company considering they are the current obvious three who are power players in the WWE's only wrestling competition.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

Totally agree there from a wrestling fans point of view. It was the undercard that held WCW together as a wrestling show. The main event guys were great from an entertainment point of view, but it was the undercard that made it a great wrestling show.

I have the same issue as a viewer with TNA, I watch the undercard for the wrestling, I can fast forward through the main events just to find the resolution to the story line, the drawn out "how they get there through the match" is somewhat boring. Generally poor writing good wrestling for the undercard, poor wrestling good writing for the main events.



Gotta agree with you there also. I always considered Jarrett a footnote in WCW history, someone who was champion of an already sinking ship. Same with Russo, it was dying by the time he was there. Nash, he would have never been welcomed back into the WWE at the time. It had lost too much ground before those three had tandem control but it just seemed a bit rich to point the finger at them for the creative fall and demise of the company considering they are the current obvious three who are power players in the WWE's only wrestling competition.

It wouldn't really surprise me if Vince was holding a grudge. Savage knows a thing or two about that.

I really miss having WCW around. This DVD is going to be so bitter sweet.

Just kind of curious but were they taking any swipes at Bischoff?

 

[absent]

I felt Bischoff came off quite well. All his interviews were from previous ones done for the "Monday Night Wars" DVD and such, but from my single viewing it seemed he was portrait more as the guy who made WCW than the guy who destroyed WCW. Yes some of his business deal were brought into question as far as contracts with wrestlers but I feel he got off rather lightly. It would be have been so easy to bury him, but that didn't really happen.

 

[Karnuj]

personally i think that one or all three of the figures who were pointed at in the doc could be blamed more so for people not wanting to be there not for the collapse of the company, I was really curious how vince was going to do the rise and fall of wcw and respect the product, i will be buying the dvd anyways but reviews are leaving me dissappointed that they used it as an attack as opposed to actually presenting a worthy pro wrestling documentary. Way to shove the propaganda out there World Wrestling Entertainment.

 

[Total Impact]

The downfalll of WCW was when Vince bought WCW, because at that time WCW was still getting ratings in the 2.o range while the WWE was well into the 4.0 range. When Vicne bought it, he could sell the WCW as a brand seperate from WWE as he could never get a proper timeslot. I remember WCW getting a Saturday night time slot that Vince felt was crap so WWE created WWE Excess.

If AOL/Time Warner had sold WCW to Eric B, the brand could still be alive today, but with the combination of Vince buying WCW & the lack of TV, WCW died. If anything, Vince killed WCW when he bought it as no one could really see how he could run two different brands equally which was & is impossible as we see in the WWE today.

WCW is like ECW, both went away when simple solutions could have fixed both companies. For WCW, it was to sell it off to Eric B as he would have kept it running, as for ECW, the shows were still packed, just hire some other than Paul to handle the business side.

 

[finneycom1]

This is a subject that will be argued until everyone on here is dead and gone. And everyone thinks they know the answer. I have read all of the posts and will say this: You are all right.

As I look back on my 20+ years of being a fan of pro wrestling, I often think back to the last years of WCW. Here's what i can tell you:

When you compare the last two years of WCW to say The NWA years or even back in the Height of the NWO popularity when WCW was killing WWE, a couple of things are obvious. First and foremost, the stories being told absolutely sucked. Now when I say sucked, I mean a 4th grade class could produce better writing than the last years of WCW. I mean, you had what? like 3 different NWOs or something. It was getting to where NWO had like 40 guys. It was the same crap week after week. One thing that I think no one ever points to when talking about the death of WCW, was the night, Shiavone announced the results of Raw with Foley winning the championship. After he announced that, everyone immediately switched over. After that night, I think WCW only beat WWE a handful of times in the Ratings. People started to realize that WCW was starting to "NWO" itself out of competition. This is when WCW started to get sick.

Second, they hire Vince Russo. Here's some of the crap he pulled: Goldberg heel turn, Oklahoma, Powers that Be, Arquette as champion(actually dont know if that was before Russo or not, dont remember) regardless, silly story telling. I dont give 3 shits if Russo was the brains behind the Attitude in WWE or not, his WCW stint was pure Shitdom. This is the point WCW was admitted to Hospice care.

Third, the parent companies of WCW really didnt give a damn about wrestling anymore. They figured once the ratings started slipping, it was just a matter of time before it was cancelled. I think back to that last year, and WCW wasnt being promoted anymore like it used to. Stars were leaving and it was beginning to have the feel of a local independent promotion. (I feel) This puts WCW on life support.

Last, McMahon buys WCW. He comes in and pulls the plug.

Now, during all of this alot of smaller tidbits help the process along. Bichoff's free reign with Turner's checkbook definitely had a huge impact. If you watch the Monday Night Wars DVD(I know, it was WWE produced) however, you will see the man himself admit that Turner basically gave him whatever he wanted. Not to mention letting some of the talent write their own storylines or at least having some creative control. That's like me going into work and management saying, "Yeah work whenever you want to. Take a break whenever. Go home at your pleasure." Doesnt work especially when you have egos like Hogan, Nash, etc. This not only had an impact viewer-wise, but you also have to manage your budget when running a company. If you dont, it will go under. Trust me.

Now, I think if the deal with Bischoff and his investors would have went through, I believe he could HAVE saved WCW. I actually like Bischoff. And I dont think that there is a man on this planet that, given the opportunity, wouldnt have done the same thing he did. Imagine going into work and management tells you, "Hey, whatever you need, you go get. It's all on us."

So to sum it up: the death of WCW was caused by: bad storylines, bad money management, uncaring parent company, Vince Russo, Bischoff's spending, huge egos, and talent's creative control. You are all right.

Sorry about the long post. But, had to throw in my 2 cents.

 

[BananaHeel]

The top 3 reasons why I quit watching:

3. You can only swap out main events with Hogan, Flair, Nash, Savage, Total Package, Sting, and Goldberg for so long...

2. NWO was no longer a honored faction. In fact, I everyone else's grandmother was in it

1. Fingerpoke of Doom. Lie Down World Order. Take your pick Hogan.

 

[absent]

Sorry, I didn't mean this thread to be a debate about why WCW died, it was just meant to be about the WWE's current spin of re-writing the past of the back-catalogue they own.

edit: And I guess this is why a/various mods have moved this tread at least twice now.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

All in all this thread will likely get more "hits/posts" in replying to everyone's individual thoughts on what killed WCW, more so than it likely would to whether WWE was trying to put a negative spin on things, to attempt hurting TNA.

In the end, I'll try to give my reply to both sides of that ball.

WCW's Death: (By way of the DVD) While I wasn't at all happy with how they did point a heavy finger at Kevin Nash, Vince Russo & Jeff Jarrett, the fact remains they constructed WCW's demise from a very early time period in which Ted Turner and AOL/Time Warner weren't interested in the Wrestling business to begin with. And its hard to make something succeed, when your Owner(s) doesn't even care about the product to begin with and just passes the hat of leadership around the room like a crack pipe.

The Story basically says they refused to give the business to anyone with a Wrestling background, because they didn't feel they were more or less "business savvy" to run it from the top. Dusty Rhodes seemed pretty bitter because he never got a chance at it, yet I seem to recall Dusty helping TNA for a while and doing a horrible job. So take that for what its worth.

Russo was getting the finger of blame pointed at him, because he was seemingly all about big, explosive and out-going storylines. Even if they weren't long-range based, or made little to no sense. Nash was getting the finger of blame pointed at him, because he was more or less pushing himself and friends. And Jarrett was getting the finger of blame pointed at him.. because someone else suggested he go over Hulk Hogan, and a series of individuals all felt like that was a horrible idea. Right.

So, why I have a huge issue with this is because of a couple reasons.

First, Vince Russo is who made the WWF/E more or less what it became to help defeat WCW in the very end. As the story goes on to say, however, is what I believe is true. Russo in the WWF had McMahon over him, to okay or shoot down ideas. In WCW, Russo had no "supervisor" so basically any stupid idea he came up with - was considered great, because he had final say in the matter. Russo was extreme, without a level to stop at, and it helped and hurt WCW.

Second, I'm almost disgusted at the amount of low-blowing Nash has received in this DVD. They should've just called it "The Rise of Diesel and Total Destruction of Kevin Nash in WCW, because you fucked us and left, you overrated big piece of shit".. by Vince McMahon I know what you're all thinking too.. "That'd probably work, if it could fit on a DVD spine." Anyways.. yeah, Nash may have had his hand in a lot of stupid decisions, but placing that much blame on him is utterly stupid.

Nash was in WCW from 1996-2001, less than a decade. I wouldn't blame Nash for anything, so much as the dip shit who thought it was wise to begin putting special creative authorities in contracts for newly signed "big names". Hogan included.

Finally, as for Jarrett.. fuck anyone who thinks he isn't worthy of going over Hulk Hogan. Seriously, get off your high fucking horse and get with the program. Hulk Hogan may be an icon, but even icons lose to lesser men in their Career. Its called "giving the rub" and "putting others over". Its what so-called Icons are SUPPOSE to do.. not whine, cry and throw a flat-out fucking tantrum when they find out they're gonna be putting over someone they feel wouldn't draw as good.

I doubt Triple H bitched and moaned when he put over the Brooklyn Brawler on national television. Yet there isn't a week that goes by without a thread popping up on him and the backstage politics that apparently go on in people's heads there.

Hulk Hogan is such a grossly overrated piece of shit from his latter stay in WCW, its ridiculous. I get the guy is a legend, and I'll never knock that. I get that he even brought them millions, and hey thats what he was brought in to do.. but dammit to hell, if someone, somewhere, didn't think MAYBE.. just maybe, this so-called Legend might come in and put someone OTHER than himself over, and not piss and moan in doing so.

SO in the end, it wasn't Russo, Nash and especially not Jarrett. It was purely and mainly the ownership of the entire Company didn't have a passion, or even moderate concern or care for the business.. that killed it. Russo, Nash, Jarrett.. Hogan, Bischoff, and several others all may have held their hands in the so-called blame jar, but none of them collectively did the most, or majority, of the damage.

Which leads me to..

WWE's Spin: This DVD put over the guys they still have in the Company, or guys they want to have in the Company.. and hurt, or tried to hurt, guys that likely won't ever return to the Company. Hints why Jarrett, Russo & Nash all got blasted. Similar to why Warrior was blasted, and why Bischoff didn't even have an "updated" interview appearance on this DVD.

Because McMahon & Co. didn't want anyone saying anything, that they weren't okay with them saying. And take notice, the WCW "originals" they had speaking on the DVD.. were mainly the same ones who jumped ship and left. (Malenko, Jericho) I did, however, laugh that Kevin fucking Sullivan was on there and they completely left out the fact that HE was actually a large reason why Malenko, Jericho, Saturn & especially Benoit.. all decided to leave the Company. Nice blind eye there.

 

[wcw_nostalgia]

It is important to note that Nash booked with a commitee, so we can't know for sure how much he is to blame. As far as Russo goes, I don't think that bad booking can kill a company (look at WWE nowadays), as long as there is something solid to back it up. The corporate structure killed WCW, because they have been wanting to get rid of wrestling on their stations since the middle of '98, but they couldn't do it all at once, so it became gradual. And Jarrett... I think he's very underrated as a wrestler and as a performer and as far as that situation goes, I don't think there was anyone better to be the top guy. It doesn't do the WWE justice to do that, just because they hold a grudge. It only shows their own insecurity.

 

[THE SWAG]

i wish they would have had more people on there instead of edited stuff from other dvds, as far as when it fell apart was when the cruiser weights left to wwe, because the younger talent was not getting pushed, and of course u had that idiot russo running the show, imitating jim ross, it got so stupid once they let go of bischoff say what u want to say about the man but knew his stuff, as for the rest of the dvd i love the matches i would have love have seen some matches with muta/sting, or doom/stieners, but all in all not a bad dvd to have on your collection, and now i guess the countdown is on for the batista dvd, boring