Watching TNA After Watching the Rise/Fall of WCW

[yoshi_doce2006]

WHAT?!?!?!

Let's clear up this kind of insanity- the executive producer is the one MOST responsible for what's on television. He is the coordinator. He is the guy that is, at the end of the day, responsible for how all the little facets of a wrestling company work together and with each other. He is the guy who goes around to other companies and tries to arrange marketing agreements with them. He doesn't go around and say "we're going to do this, and this guy's going to do this move, and that guy's going to come out to this music", because he is the guy who is the boss of all of the people that are hired to do that. (The executive producer title is often given to an outsized star as a contract move: see Kiefer Sutherland and "24". In this case there are usually multiple executive producers, with a couple acting the role and a couple who just have the title under their name on the sign in front of their office.)

If he didn't have the influence to mold the product as he saw fit, he'd be unable to do his job, and has Eric Bischoff ever struck anyone as a hands-off worker?

Yes, but he can only put on television what is written and performed. He cant magically wave a wand and make everything he wants appear. He is limited by Hogan and Russo. He said he doesnt even go to half of the creative meetings. So yes as Executive Producer he is limited in what he does by the guys who give him the material. When he was Executive Producer of WCW he was also Head of Creative, he isnt Head of Creative so he has to deal with what he is given.

Bischoff was only promoted 2 months ago I think it was and he is hands on. But unless he suddenly became head of creative he cant say "I want this feud made to put on" or "push this guy so we can get a couple good promos". That is up to Russo and Hogan so Bischoff has to work within that. When he was in WCW he had all the power, he doesnt have that here.

 

[Rayne]

Yes, but he can only put on television what is written and performed. He cant magically wave a wand and make everything he wants appear. He is limited by Hogan and Russo. He said he doesnt even go to half of the creative meetings. So yes as Executive Producer he is limited in what he does by the guys who give him the material. When he was Executive Producer of WCW he was also Head of Creative, he isnt Head of Creative so he has to deal with what he is given.

Bischoff was only promoted 2 months ago I think it was and he is hands on. But unless he suddenly became head of creative he cant say "I want this feud made to put on" or "push this guy so we can get a couple good promos". That is up to Russo and Hogan so Bischoff has to work within that. When he was in WCW he had all the power, he doesnt have that here.

Executive Producer trumps Head of Creative. Creative comes to the executive producer and says "this is what we've got." Executive Producer finds the best way to push it, or- and this is the key part- says "this dog don't hunt, try again".

He can't wave a wand and make what he wants to appear, because he doesn't need to. Other people are hired for that. But at the end of the day, he's responsible for everything you see on a TNA/IW broadcast. Without the power to say "no, I don't like that", he simply can't do his job. It would be like being President without having veto power.

 

[ahoyhoy]

I can't say I ever watched WCW (not sure it aired in the UK) but it was beating WWE in ratings for a while so it must have been quite entertaining. I believe WCW went out of business due to poor finances or spending to much of Ted Turners money rather than poor ratings or bad TV?

I agree that when Hogan/Bischoff came in they started wasting talent and money as you mentioned, but recently since the rebranding, Impact Wrestling has become much more enjoyable. I for one enjoy Russo's clusterfuck style of booking even though he can sometimes have too many random swerves or bad match endings (See Angle Vs Jarrett fued). However I see bad decision making in WWE just as much if not more and for me WWE is no way near as entertaining in the ring or with promos.

I like Eric Young and his random character.

The X-Division is about to rise again, Abyss is only the means to an end in that when Kaz finally wins the title off him it will be more meaningful then him defeating Amazing Red.

Hardy is gone for now, RVD loses most of his matches against main eventers and is now mid card, while Anderson should win the title soon as he only lost it because Hardy turned up. AJ will be Heavyweight champion again this year and is currently in the biggest stable/group in IW pushing for titles and on TV every week.

IW does fuck up when it comes to storylines, although the return of MEM was only rumoured. I could mention WWE doing promos for Sting for mania before quickly changing it to Taker when it became clear Sting was not going to sign. Perhaps I should mention Kharma getting a major push as a monster before completely ruining her character by ackowledging she was pregnant (by the way I doubt you ever see he in WWE again).

Chyna is getting ass banged in cheap porn so IW is wise not to use her again. I would think IW would get slammed even harder than Chyna if she was to appear again.

The Foley thing is a worry but hopefully the network story is not over.

So there you have it, I disagree with practically everything the OP stated.

On a side note:

Zeven has your account been hacked or do you have bi polar? I prefer the IW loving version of you, not this guy contradicting all your previous posts about loving TNA/IW.

TNT showed Nitro on Friday nights as to compete with Raw on Sky Sports from 1997 onwards. When Thunder started it was on Channel 5. PPVs weren't available though.

Ratings became TERRIBLE and that made advertisers pull out, making the money situation something they couldn't sustain. Read the last couple years in The Death of WCW and you'll see how rushed decisions meant that occasional boosted one or two week ratings (that would still be 4 or 5 points below Raw/WWF ppv) didn't effect the long term demise of viewers and attendances.

WWE never did anything of the sort in relation to Sting.

Also basically you say that TNA are messing up storylines, pushes and matches and you use this as a way to defend the product? God knows what you'd say if you actually wanted to attack it.

Vince Russo is the cancer of wrestling. Until everyone ever involved in wrestling understands this, it cannot begin to evolve again.

 

[rge2010]

I hope TNA goes under and I hope WWE swoop in like a vulture and take the better talent. I think people like AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Beer Money and a few others would really help boost up the upper/ mid card in WWE.

TNA is a terribly run company. I cant believe how long they have survived. I watch their show and it is like a train wreck. They might have some better 'wrestlers' but as entertainers its like watching a softporn movie when they try to cut promos.

 

[yankees-flair]

I love Impact and hope they atick around because WWE SUCKS !!!
You have quality veterans and young guys in Impact. Good promo's, matches, etc.
Instead of over analyzing every little thing they do wrong, why not enjoy it for what it is !!
Its WRESTLING !!
This is not rocket science here !!
Impact is entertaining, WWE is boring, and thats my opinion in a nut-shell !!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!

 

[yoshi_doce2006]

Executive Producer trumps Head of Creative. Creative comes to the executive producer and says "this is what we've got." Executive Producer finds the best way to push it, or- and this is the key part- says "this dog don't hunt, try again".

He can't wave a wand and make what he wants to appear, because he doesn't need to. Other people are hired for that. But at the end of the day, he's responsible for everything you see on a TNA/IW broadcast. Without the power to say "no, I don't like that", he simply can't do his job. It would be like being President without having veto power.

Yet IMPACT still stinks of poor Russo like booking? And with Hogan overseeing all of that as far as TNA Programming goes (He has said nothing goes on tv without his approval) does that mean Hogan is above Bischoff and is working with Russo more closely? Bischoff has stated on more than one occasion that he rarely joins in the creative process, that he doesnt want to write a show. That leaves Hogan and Russo.

So either Bischoff isnt as hands on as he once was in WCW or he and Hogan are lying through their teeth on how they work in TNA. Or a third option is that they are currently fixing a system Dixie Carter had that was so broken (I dont think they had an actual Executive Producer before Bischoff, the duties were shared) that realigning the chain of command is not going as smoothly as they would hope.

Any way you cut it something doesnt sound quite right in the TNA front office.

 

[LSC]

yes but what gets me is that they are stuck in that small arena and can never pull the crowds wcw did

 

[Rayne]

Yet IMPACT still stinks of poor Russo like booking? And with Hogan overseeing all of that as far as TNA Programming goes (He has said nothing goes on tv without his approval) does that mean Hogan is above Bischoff and is working with Russo more closely? Bischoff has stated on more than one occasion that he rarely joins in the creative process, that he doesnt want to write a show. That leaves Hogan and Russo.

So either Bischoff isnt as hands on as he once was in WCW or he and Hogan are lying through their teeth on how they work in TNA. Or a third option is that they are currently fixing a system Dixie Carter had that was so broken (I dont think they had an actual Executive Producer before Bischoff, the duties were shared) that realigning the chain of command is not going as smoothly as they would hope.

Any way you cut it something doesnt sound quite right in the TNA front office.

That we can agree on entirely. They can't even seem to agree on what their company is named right now.

Who knows what the formal power structure is in TNA/IW; I'm not even sure that there is one, right now. I do know that without being able to have a say in what gets shown on air, it is completely impossible to be an active executive producer. Eric Bischoff has never struck me as a hands-off manager. As far as Hogan, Russo, and Bischoff lying about what they do- count on it. To what degree I couldn't tell you, but I haven't seen anything from the three of them that would suggest moments of complete and utter honesty with the professional wrestling fanbase.

All three certainly have their hands in the book; the structure that seems to me to be the most likely is a creative team headed by Russo with Hogan's input, with Bischoff providing edits to the material he's given. That is, of course, a complete guess based on prior history. But Eric Bischoff simply couldn't do the job the way he saw fit without being able to make creative adjustments.

 

[MB1025]

That we can agree on entirely. They can't even seem to agree on what their company is named right now.

What are you talking about? TNA is the brand while Impact Wrestling is their show/slogan. When Hogan says no more TNA he doesn't mean the name is gone from the company. He means when you say their Thursday night show it is not TNA Impact Wrestling or TNA Impact it is just Impact Wrestling. That is clearly what the press release from Spike TV said also. Who are all these people that can't agree on a company name? Here are the few people who had interviews or made twitter comments.

Hulk Hogan - A fan asked on twitter if TNA Impact was no more. He said yes no more TNA just Impact Wrestling.

Kurt Angle - Said in an interview that it is no longer TNA. Just Impact Wrestling.

Jeff Jarrett - Interview and twitter said the TNA name is still there but just a brand.


Clearly the idea is to get people to stop saying TNA when they are going to watch their program because of the Tits N Ass relation.

 

[yoshi_doce2006]

That we can agree on entirely. They can't even seem to agree on what their company is named right now.

Who knows what the formal power structure is in TNA/IW; I'm not even sure that there is one, right now. I do know that without being able to have a say in what gets shown on air, it is completely impossible to be an active executive producer. Eric Bischoff has never struck me as a hands-off manager. As far as Hogan, Russo, and Bischoff lying about what they do- count on it. To what degree I couldn't tell you, but I haven't seen anything from the three of them that would suggest moments of complete and utter honesty with the professional wrestling fanbase.

All three certainly have their hands in the book; the structure that seems to me to be the most likely is a creative team headed by Russo with Hogan's input, with Bischoff providing edits to the material he's given. That is, of course, a complete guess based on prior history. But Eric Bischoff simply couldn't do the job the way he saw fit without being able to make creative adjustments.

If you remember correctly this is the exact confusion and mess WCW had because Russo and Bischoff have two completely different booking styles. Add Hogan in and it is getting very obvious from how we are talking through things here that the creative process is probably as bad now as it was when Bischoff and Russo were trying to book a show together in 2000. While I believe they are doing better now than they did then (With Hogan in the middle being a mediator...we're screwed) but that isnt as much of an accomplishment because it still sounds like a mess.

In the end it is either going to be Bischoff in complete control or Russo. In WCW Bischoff left and Russo was ousted. This time I believe Bischoff will be promoted as head of the company from a wrestling standpoint and Russo will be gone because you can not have two completely different styles trying to make something work.

The power structure in TNA is terribly flawed one way or the other and all support from the company (Minus Dixie Carter who is a Russo fan), including Janice Carter (Hope that is her first name) is a fan of Bischoff taking over all wrestling matters.

No matter what we agree or disagree on I think this will come to a head soon and Bischoff will be the one on top of the mountain when it is all said and done.

 

[Rayne]

What are you talking about? TNA is the brand while Impact Wrestling is their show/slogan. When Hogan says no more TNA he doesn't mean the name is gone from the company. He means when you say their Thursday night show it is not TNA Impact Wrestling or TNA Impact it is just Impact Wrestling. That is clearly what the press release from Spike TV said also. Who are all these people that can't agree on a company name? Here are the few people who had interviews or made twitter comments.

Hulk Hogan - A fan asked on twitter if TNA Impact was no more. He said yes no more TNA just Impact Wrestling.

Kurt Angle - Said in an interview that it is no longer TNA. Just Impact Wrestling.

Jeff Jarrett - Interview and twitter said the TNA name is still there but just a brand.


Clearly the idea is to get people to stop saying TNA when they are going to watch their program because of the Tits N Ass relation.

So according to you, TNA is the name of the company, and Impact Wrestling is the name of the show. Kurt Angle says that TNA no longer exists, Hulk Hogan says that the show name has changed, and Jeff Jarrett says they're still using TNA. (A name is a brand.)

If you're going to spin, the idea is to define a version of events and stick to that version. From what you just quoted me, it seems like the people you listed can't agree with each other on if they're calling the company TNA or Impact Wrestling; the only sure thing seems to be that the Thursday night show is now called "Impact Wrestling". The company, however, is still registered as Total Nonstop Action, LLC.

 

[Chess]

WWE never did anything of the sort in relation to Sting.

Also basically you say that TNA are messing up storylines, pushes and matches and you use this as a way to defend the product? God knows what you'd say if you actually wanted to attack it.

Vince Russo is the cancer of wrestling. Until everyone ever involved in wrestling understands this, it cannot begin to evolve again.

I still do not believe that the original promo was for Undertaker. If you look at the promos. The first was very cloak and dagger and it left everyone unsure who was coming, in fact most wrestling sites were quoting Sting was on his way to WWE. Then all of a sudden after it was clear Sting was staying in TNA, WWE aired promo 2 making it blatantly obvious it was now the Undertaker. I still have my doubts that it was originally for Undertaker as if it was why make it so unclear and then all of a sudden make it obvious.

I think I said TNA has messed up some storylines and some matches but also that they are not alone as WWE does as well if not more. Yet despite all this I still find IW a lot more entertaining than WWE. In fact although I try and watch WWE I find it amazingly difficult to actually enjoy anything they do which is a shame as I like wrestling.

I have heard now what people have said as to why WCW and TNA/IW are similar, however to me it seems to stem from the fact 3 people (Hogan, Bischoff and Russo) worked for both companies. Didn't these same 3 people also work for WWE? Wasn't Russo also in WWE when ratings were much higher than they are today? So if Russo sucks so bad why are ratings worse now and why is WWE so boring now?

 

[Kizzo]

Similar is one thing, WCW was great as a show, but not as a company. Common misconception is that Bischoff has a huge role in creative, not true. Bischoff is Hogan's adviser, but Hogan calls the shots while Russo for all his ineptness does the writing. Top that off with Dixie Carter making the decisions on finances that is a recipe for disaster. Bischoff is Executive Producer and I love the direction the production of the show has gone since Bischoff was promoted to that role.

Bischoff is doing a great job as the executive producer of the show. He knows production. Hell WWE pretty much copied all of WCW's ideas on production. When it came to TV production WCW was way ahead of the pack and some of their presentation was way before its time.

This is one of his strengths. We just need someone to replace Dixie Carter and Russo. But keep Bischoff as executive producer.

 

[muzz-rocks]

I've finnally gotten around to watching The Rise And Fall Of WCW and the only thing that i can say on the subject is that The Rise and Fall DVD is not the history of WCW, it is an hour and fourty two minute set up line for a "Jeff Jerrett sucks" punchline.

If you watch it everyone has something nice said about them, hell even Bischoff and Rusuo don't even come out that bad, but no one said anything nice about Jerrett at all. With good reason to. The DVD states that he broke 600+ gutairs and didn't draw anyone, infact he lost fans. I thought that something wasn't quite right untill i saw the release date of the dvd. It is basically a premature strike at TNA

 

[RJB1976]

Does TNA have issues? Yes. Does the WWE have Issues? Yes. I see that this thread has gotten off track, and i would like to point out what kills a wrestling show the way a fart kills a funeral. Long winded 20 minute promos. HHH, UT, can do long winded promos. Hell, R-Truth is showing he can do a long winded promo. But Orton, Cena, Miz? These guys can't even do a two minute promo.

Too much backstage crap, too much in ring promo time is killing TV wrestling. Want to keep the crowd's exciting, have Alex Riley beat up the Miz. Want to sell merch and put the toilets in the bathroom to work, have a long winded 25 minute in ring promo.

 

[yoshi_doce2006]

Bischoff is doing a great job as the executive producer of the show. He knows production. Hell WWE pretty much copied all of WCW's ideas on production. When it came to TV production WCW was way ahead of the pack and some of their presentation was way before its time.

This is one of his strengths. We just need someone to replace Dixie Carter and Russo. But keep Bischoff as executive producer.

Oh yea, in the two months since his promotion the look of the company and production of the product is off the chains. Love that change.

 

[yoshi_doce2006]

Does TNA have issues? Yes. Does the WWE have Issues? Yes. I see that this thread has gotten off track, and i would like to point out what kills a wrestling show the way a fart kills a funeral. Long winded 20 minute promos. HHH, UT, can do long winded promos. Hell, R-Truth is showing he can do a long winded promo. But Orton, Cena, Miz? These guys can't even do a two minute promo.

Too much backstage crap, too much in ring promo time is killing TV wrestling. Want to keep the crowd's exciting, have Alex Riley beat up the Miz. Want to sell merch and put the toilets in the bathroom to work, have a long winded 25 minute in ring promo.

In my opinion if you give Promos 20 minutes more than the in-ring product that should give you around 40 minutes of wrestling and an hours worth of promos, that would be a nice balance. Not 20 minutes of wrestling and 80 minutes of talking. That's bad.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

In my opinion if you give Promos 20 minutes more than the in-ring product that should give you around 40 minutes of wrestling and an hours worth of promos, that would be a nice balance. Not 20 minutes of wrestling and 80 minutes of talking. That's bad.

What a ton of people don't realize is that I.W is not 120 minutes long. It's actually 80 minutes long, minus the commercials.

Still, it can't be impossible to have balance. 40 minutes of wrestling and 40 talking? 35 minutes of wrestling and 45 talking? Not imppossible at all. To me, more than 20 and less than 40 (for wrestling) is just fine. In the end, if the segments and the promos they cut are actually good, I could care less about how much wrestling I got. To me, promos and segments are just as enjoyable as wrestling matches. I find myself slightly bored with even the best I.W matches that last more than 7-8 minutes.

To me, having matches last more than 6 minutes EVERY Thursday that are completely pointless and are on the card to do nothing more than further a single storylines is just a dreck.

It's always been quality over quantity. I've seen matches that are 3 minutes long and I've liked them better than some 7 long ones. Time is irrelevant when the whole show is great.

 

[yoshi_doce2006]

What a ton of people don't realize is that I.W is not 120 minutes long. It's actually 80 minutes long, minus the commercials.

Still, it can't be impossible to have balance. 40 minutes of wrestling and 40 talking? 35 minutes of wrestling and 45 talking? Not imppossible at all. To me, more than 20 and less than 40 (for wrestling) is just fine. In the end, if the segments and the promos they cut are actually good, I could care less about how much wrestling I got. To me, promos and segments are just as enjoyable as wrestling matches. I find myself slightly bored with even the best I.W matches that last more than 7-8 minutes.

To me, having matches last more than 6 minutes EVERY Thursday that are completely pointless and are on the card to do nothing more than further a single storylines is just a dreck.

It's always been quality over quantity. I've seen matches that are 3 minutes long and I've liked them better than some 7 long ones. Time is irrelevant when the whole show is great.

And that's the thing, TNA has great wrestling talent, people who are good on the mic, they are too good to be doing so poorly in the ratings. You need the balance but you also have to make that balance matter.

It's like the early wrestling war of Crockette vs McMahon, Ric Flair said that there was no way that they should have lost that war, they were too good. Flair said the reason they lost was because the Front office didn't know how to market the product or keep the performers happy.

TNA/IW is in the same boat. They are too good to have these types of formatting problems and backstage mistakes. As you said, if they can get the quality of the storylines down they will be fine.