Rey Mysterio Clearly Learned More From Kevin Nash Than He Lets On

[Tenta]

Ok, we all know Rey is champion, that's a given. From a wrestling standpoint, I actually like this move. At the very least, you're guaranteed a good to great main event match wherever you go. Besides, it's been a little while since The WHC has been held by a face who could consistently perform. So you know what, from a wrestling standpoint, I'm ok with this.

But this isn't about the wrestling standpoint, more the backstage component. Let's go back in time, about eleven years, give or take a couple months. Rey was performing in WCW, still not selling worth a damn, and while putting o exciting matches, was beginning to have knee issues. He also began to complain about the work atmosphere in WCW. And granted, he had plenty of validity to him, because everybody in the mid card was doing the exact same thing, and complaining in particular about one man; Kevin Nash. Every wrestler and their mother (right Judy Bagwell?) Absolutely hated the way that Kevin Nash was booking the company, and to some extent, they had every right to. Mysterio was forced to lose his mask to Nash, and was completely humiliated on television. Of course, Kevin Nash also gave Mysterio his "Giant Killer" gimmick that he's still pandering around to this day, but we won't get into that. That shines far too positive a light on Kevin Nash. Anyway,Mysterio felt as though Nash was holding him back. He promised he would never do business like Nash, and swore that people like Kevin Nash would be the death of the business.

Oh. The. Irony. Words can't describe how sweet the schadenfreude feels in pointing out the hypocrisy here. Rey Mysterio, for all his bluster ten years ago, has pretty much become the Kevin Nash of the WWE. We're aware of at least two instances in which Rey Mysterio has refused to put people over. One of course would be CM Punk, and the other Dolph Ziggler. Though Ziggler needed the win more than Mysterio, Rey balked on passing the belt onto Ziggler, and allowing for Dolph to try and get over legitimately. Now, Dolph hangs from Vickie Guerrero's neck, like a clubbed ferret. CM Punk, too, needed the win over Mysterio more than Rey needed the win. Still, Rey decides to put himself over, and though Punk has seemingly recovered, it was a very dicey return to the top. I'd argue anyone not near the talent of CM Punk would have been buried.

Not only that, but Rey's proven to be quite grouchy with WWE management over the past couple months. How dare Vince not allow me to work for another company!, he bellowed angrily, in his squeaky voice. How dare he treat the widow of the man I've been ****ing the legacy of for three years so horribly! He declared. And yet, still, through all of this.... Rey Mysterio was rewarded with a championship run. That's right... One of the guys who has been the most unprofessional workers in the past year, is being awarded with one of the top honors in his profession. Dios Mio! Que Mierdo Paso?

Look, I get that Rey has built up plenty of good karma in his life, but this is clearly a case of the unprofessional wrestler getting rewarded. Thus, with that in mind;

Does it set a dangerous precedence in the WWE?

Does it make Rey somewhat hypocritical?

Will we see other veterans pull Rey's shit, in the hopes of getting a similar push?

 

[Tenta]

Oh.... This is perfect. This just adds to how pissed off I am by this move...

The Wrestling Observer is reporting that WWE decided to give Rey Mysterio the World Title at last night's Fatal Four Way PPV for several reasons. The first is that the company was reportedly unhappy with Jack Swagger as the current Champion. It's also being said that Mysterio takes great pride in being the Champion, and with reports of him being unhappy in WWE lately, this was a way for management to appease him. Additionally, it's being said that plans for a month long vacation for Mysterio were scrapped when The Undertaker was side lined with an injury, so giving him a title run probably helped persuade him to stick around.

Two things strike me about this, which is from a pretty reliable source.

1. It's actually stated that management attempted to appease Rey with this move. Um... What? So let me get this straight.... For Rey, it isn't enough that he's portrayed as this grandiose Giant Killer, who realistically shouldn't be in the position he is? It isn't enough that he hasn't jobbed out to anyone in quite some time? He needed to be champion just to be appeased? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't scream professionalism to me.

2. He was persuaded to stick around, as The Undertaker was sidelined with injuries. That would be all well and great, except Rey was the fucking one to injure him! How does that fucking work? You injured our top face, and though you should be punished for that, we're going to give you the best belt we can? What sense does that make?

Right now, it seems as though Rey's becoming a cancer in the locker room. Refusing to job, putting himself over when he clearly doesn't need it, and now being rewarded the championship after injuring the top face in the company, and the backstage conscience?

On what planet does this make any sense?

 

[Klown_Karnage]

You make some interesting points here, so long as they truly are as you say they are. I'm not saying they're not, but I'd be interested in seeing your sources. I've heard different ones, including an interview with Mysterio himself (on the Wrestlecast Podcast, in case you wish to double-check) in which he claims that Kevin Nash actually "took care of" him in WCW after the time he lost his mask. I think that perhaps his dislike of Nash or the way he did business might be overstated here, but perhaps he gave a very different interview later or sooner and I missed it. Secondly, his refusal to put over Ziggler and Punk, I'd have to disagree here. As MVP said, "you don't have to go over to get over". The two of them had great matches with Mysterio and I'd like to point out that we don't know what happens in WWE creative meetings. Nor do we know what happens backstage.

Could be that Punk actually wanted a new look, something edgier and possibly a big scarier. Maybe the hair loss and the mask was his idea. Besides, can you imagine what would have happened if Mysterio had joined the SES? Do you really want them to try to put over a heel Mysterio? As for Ziggles...*cough cough* excuse me, Dolph Ziggler, he's not really in that bad a position now. His current position gained Edge some good (if not slightly disturbing) moments as well as some massive heat (much of it backwash off of Vickie.) I could make the case that working with Mysterio actually helped these two, not hurt them.

Finally, you speak of this setting a dangerous precedence, but I'd make the case that the precedence was set a long time ago. It dates back to even before the WWE. One could accuse people like Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Bret Hart and yes, even The Undertaker of the same stuff. What's the diff? More people who post on sites like this one dislike Mysterio. I think it has to do with the fact that Mysterio is so well liked by the "common" fan and so many of we "more major and educated" fans might just think we sound smarter and more educated if we dislike who the more casual fans like (or are encouraged to like.) I may be off base on this...but I think this definitely applies to some of the fanbase.

 

[Coco]

Ok, we all know Rey is champion, that's a given. From a wrestling standpoint, I actually like this move. At the very least, you're guaranteed a good to great main event match wherever you go. Besides, it's been a little while since The WHC has been held by a face who could consistently perform. So you know what, from a wrestling standpoint, I'm ok with this.

John Cena disagrees with your comment about faces who can consistently perform. But this is a Rey Mysterio thread, so I digress.

Oh. The. Irony. Words can't describe how sweet the schadenfreude feels in pointing out the hypocrisy here. Rey Mysterio, for all his bluster ten years ago, has pretty much become the Kevin Nash of the WWE. We're aware of at least two instances in which Rey Mysterio has refused to put people over. One of course would be CM Punk, and the other Dolph Ziggler. Though Ziggler needed the win more than Mysterio, Rey balked on passing the belt onto Ziggler, and allowing for Dolph to try and get over legitimately.

Fuck's sake.

People need to get over this one. Why? I was goin to tell you so we could avoid making this spam. I shal do that.

Rey (and Jericho) were bringing credibility back to the IC belt at the time. Throwing it to another no-name midcarder to have the belt get him over, rather than letting the midcarder get over enough to deserve the belt, would have done harm to the belt. Rey was willing to drop it eventually, but he (correctly) felt a longer reign for himself was necessary for the belt.

WWE obviously realized Ziggler was the wrong guy at the time. They let Rey drop the belt to Morrison and never had Morrison drop to Ziggler. Are we going to blame Mysterio for that as well?

But of course whenever someone appeals to higher ups, he's the devil. Right?

Rolls eyes.

CM Punk, too, needed the win over Mysterio more than Rey needed the win. Still, Rey decides to put himself over, and though Punk has seemingly recovered, it was a very dicey return to the top. I'd argue anyone not near the talent of CM Punk would have been buried.

We know how top heels are booked in the WWE. It's not a question of "need" as we know how WWE likes to over-protect their faces. But more significantly, you're overdoing it. "Buried"? Fuck, do you have any idea what that word means? Because if you did, you'd know competitive losses to one of the top faces in the company isn't it.

Not only that, but Rey's proven to be quite grouchy with WWE management over the past couple months. How dare Vince not allow me to work for another company!, he bellowed angrily, in his squeaky voice. How dare he treat the widow of the man I've been ****ing the legacy of for three years so horribly! He declared. And yet, still, through all of this.... Rey Mysterio was rewarded with a championship run. That's right... One of the guys who has been the most unprofessional workers in the past year, is being awarded with one of the top honors in his profession. Dios Mio! Que Mierdo Paso?

How would working one show for that company have hurt the WWE?

How is it unprofessional to voice concerns over th depiction of Vickie Guerrero? It certainly went too far multiple times. I'd be more concerned if he didn't care.

Look, I get that Rey has built up plenty of good karma in his life, but this is clearly a case of the unprofessional wrestler getting rewarded.

Rey's underused for a guy who's clearly resposible for building WWE's Hispanic base and is WWE's largest draw in Mexico. He's become a money machine and is one of WWE's current largest draws. Are you in any way implying that he doesn't deserve to have a voice in how he's booked? Are you implying that the WWE would be smart to misuse such a clear cut asset?

In response to your second post:

-Why shouldn't they appease him?

-Taker agreed to take a dangerous spot where a 175+ pound man was essentially flopping his ass on his shoulders. He's old, so injuries happen. If Taker felt Rey was at fault, you really think Rey would be champion right now?

Nice to see the fatty lovers out in force today, but you're grasping at straws.

 

[Dave]

Tenta! I could not agree with you any more.

However, I would definitely be telling a lie if I told you that I had known why
he had left WCW. I did know that Nash was doing the booking but I didn't know that that was the reason that Rey Mysterio left. With all of the evidence that you have presented though, I cannot tell you how much I hate Rey Mysterio. I have never been a fan of his and I think that he makes a lousy Champion. However, that is another story for another time and this thread is juat another reason as to why I dislike him greatly.

Firstly, I will answer your questions:

Does it set a dangerous precedence in the WWE?

Does it make Rey somewhat hypocritical?

Will we see other veterans pull Rey's shit, in the hopes of getting a similar push?

I would imagine that it will set a dangerous precedent if this is not a one-off. We all know the dangers of going down the road of allowing crazed superstars run the booking and this could be very dangerous if it is not dealt with. Rey is a good wrestler. He is over and an icon for a lot of people. If you had not given evidence to the contrary, I would have quite happily believed that he won the title on purely legitimate talent. However, it is not that way and he really shouldn't be the Champion. Swagger was doing just fine with the belt and I hope that Rey's pushy behaviour hasn't resulted in Swagger tumbling down the main event card and beyond.

Rey is a fucking hypocrite! If he had said that about Nash, then I am very surprised to see him pulling the same shit. However, I can see what he is doing. Most superstars realise that the only thing that gets wrestlers over, both when they are in the company and when they have left, is what they do in the ring and their legacy. Rey has put over plenty of people and has cemented himself as one of the best high-flyers to grace the WWE. He knows that he will have his legacy soon enough and I am willing to wager that he thinks he is above some of the newer talent that is getting a push. Maybe he has taken some notes from Nash and believes that it is the role of people like himself to give the new guys a hard time and stopping them from getting over. Maybe it comes down to him believing that all the new guys need t have a hard time because he certainly did? I wouldn't like to believe that this is true but I am certainly not ruling that out right now.

The other vetrans though, seem to be coming to peace with the fact that their role should be to put over the new talent that the WWE are banking on. Look at what Randy Orton, Edge and John Cena did last night for an example. They put over Sheamus and gave him his shot at another run with the Championship. I would like to think that most of the veterans are happy with the direction that the WWE now needs to go to build up the new talent and wouldn't consider holding them back as Rey Mysterio has seemingly done.

Great thread idea, Tenta.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Tenta! I could not agree with you any more.

However, I would definitely be telling a lie if I told you that I had known why
he had left WCW. I did know that Nash was doing the booking but I didn't know that that was the reason that Rey Mysterio left. With all of the evidence that you have presented though, I cannot tell you how much I hate Rey Mysterio. I have never been a fan of his and I think that he makes a lousy Champion. However, that is another story for another time and this thread is juat another reason as to why I dislike him greatly.

Firstly, I will answer your questions:



I would imagine that it will set a dangerous precedent if this is not a one-off. We all know the dangers of going down the road of allowing crazed superstars run the booking and this could be very dangerous if it is not dealt with. Rey is a good wrestler. He is over and an icon for a lot of people. If you had not given evidence to the contrary, I would have quite happily believed that he won the title on purely legitimate talent. However, it is not that way and he really shouldn't be the Champion. Swagger was doing just fine with the belt and I hope that Rey's pushy behaviour hasn't resulted in Swagger tumbling down the main event card and beyond.

Rey is a fucking hypocrite! If he had said that about Nash, then I am very surprised to see him pulling the same shit. However, I can see what he is doing. Most superstars realise that the only thing that gets wrestlers over, both when they are in the company and when they have left, is what they do in the ring and their legacy. Rey has put over plenty of people and has cemented himself as one of the best high-flyers to grace the WWE. He knows that he will have his legacy soon enough and I am willing to wager that he thinks he is above some of the newer talent that is getting a push. Maybe he has taken some notes from Nash and believes that it is the role of people like himself to give the new guys a hard time and stopping them from getting over. Maybe it comes down to him believing that all the new guys need t have a hard time because he certainly did? I wouldn't like to believe that this is true but I am certainly not ruling that out right now.

The other vetrans though, seem to be coming to peace with the fact that their role should be to put over the new talent that the WWE are banking on. Look at what Randy Orton, Edge and John Cena did last night for an example. They put over Sheamus and gave him his shot at another run with the Championship. I would like to think that most of the veterans are happy with the direction that the WWE now needs to go to build up the new talent and wouldn't consider holding them back as Rey Mysterio has seemingly done.

Great thread idea, Tenta.

Swagger was doing a good job losing to anybody and everybody. What did Ziggler do up to the point he faced Rey Mysterio? Beat a broken down Khali a couple of times. They could have had Morrison drop the belt to Ziggler but they chose to go to McIntyre instead. Do we want to blame Rey for that too?
You don't have to lose to put somebody over. Rey put Ziggler over enough with their matches.

 

[Dave]

Swagger was doing a good job losing to anybody and everybody. What did Ziggler do up to the point he faced Rey Mysterio? Beat a broken down Khali a couple of times. They could have had Morrison drop the belt to Ziggler but they chose to go to McIntyre instead. Do we want to blame Rey for that too?
You don't have to lose to put somebody over. Rey put Ziggler over enough with their matches.

Haha!

You must be shitting me!?

I realise the fact that you don't have to win to get over but Ziggle came out worse thanks to Rey Mysterio. If Rey had put Ziggler over and had given him a chance with the US Championship, Ziggler may have been on his way to bigger and better things. Instead, Rey decided to bitch to WWE management and decided, himself, that Ziggler wasn't ready for the Championship and that he would keep it for a little bit longer.

Let me put this out there for you, dude. The job of Rey Mysterio, at this late stage of his career, is to help the younger stars get over. It is how wrestling has existed for centuries and it is the foundation that means that it will continue to exist for more centuries. I wouldn't come in here and suggest that Rey Mysterio made Ziggler look like a star because he did anything but. The fact of the matter is that Ziggler needed that push and the belt would have given him it. However, Rey Mysterio's pride is worth more than a push for a promising superstar!? Yeah, right!

The way Evan Bourne wa sput over by Jericho is how you put someone over. WHat Rey did was make Ziggler look like a punk being put in his place. Think it through. I don't think he beat Mysterio once, did he? He wrestled him on three PPV, I think, and Ziggler lost all three. Yeah, that really makes him stand out.

 

[Tenta]

You make some interesting points here, so long as they truly are as you say they are. I'm not saying they're not, but I'd be interested in seeing your sources. I've heard different ones, including an interview with Mysterio himself (on the Wrestlecast Podcast, in case you wish to double-check) in which he claims that Kevin Nash actually "took care of" him in WCW after the time he lost his mask. I think that perhaps his dislike of Nash or the way he did business might be overstated here, but perhaps he gave a very different interview later or sooner and I missed it.

I cite for my source, Ring of Hell, written by Matthew Randazzo, in which Mysterio calls Nash, "the worst thing to happen to WCW", and "Like Eddy and Chris, wanted to take a shot at Kevin, but knew if he did, he'd be fired." I also would cite Rey's own autobiography, in which he discussed losing his mask and the anger in it.

Secondly, his refusal to put over Ziggler and Punk, I'd have to disagree here. As MVP said, "you don't have to go over to get over". The two of them had great matches with Mysterio and I'd like to point out that we don't know what happens in WWE creative meetings. Nor do we know what happens backstage.

Could be that Punk actually wanted a new look, something edgier and possibly a big scarier. Maybe the hair loss and the mask was his idea.

If it was, I applaud that he was willing to put Rey over, but it seems as though, from reading the dirt sheets and Wrestling Observer, the WWE was preparing for Mysterio to join the SES as early as Wrestlemania. And usually, unless someone complains with stroke, the plans go accordingly. Simply put, Punk does not have that much stroke.

Besides, can you imagine what would have happened if Mysterio had joined the SES? Do you really want them to try to put over a heel Mysterio?

Well, as much as that could be the case, I'd call it more the reluctant heel. Just because he lost, he wouldn't have to be a heel. The reluctant face gimmick is something that's been done for years. And once it comes full circle, just about every wrestling fan pops like a Marachino cherry.

As for Ziggles...*cough cough* excuse me, Dolph Ziggler, he's not really in that bad a position now. His current position gained Edge some good (if not slightly disturbing) moments as well as some massive heat (much of it backwash off of Vickie.) I could make the case that working with Mysterio actually helped these two, not hurt them.

Eh... I just don't see much for Ziggler now. And yes, he's somewhat recovered, but that took him ten months to do so. With WWE building, he could have easily been an upper mid card heel by this point, making most to all pay per views, rather than scratching for time on TV.

Finally, you speak of this setting a dangerous precedence, but I'd make the case that the precedence was set a long time ago. It dates back to even before the WWE. One could accuse people like Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Bret Hart

You do realize the names you just used, right? Guys who were cancerous backstage, and who plenty of people had issues with, in the way they played the political game. So yeah, using those names isn't exactly building a good case for Rey Rey.

and yes, even The Undertaker of the same stuff. What's the diff?

I'm going to sum this up, and answer the part I didn't add, but answering what the diff is, in the case of these two.

In the case of Warrior and Hogan, the difference is that these men have earned their place by being draws. Say what you will, but these men did fantastic business for the company. Rey does good merchandise, but isn't a proven draw as champion. He hasn't that distinction of being a world champion wrestler like Hogan, Warrior, Savage, and the like. He just hasn't earned that position yet.

As for Taker. Big difference. Taker is known for doing good by business, and not always for himself. And that's what ultimately separates him from Mysterio. As to your idea of why Rey is disliked... Perhaps. I just dilike him for his recent power run.

People need to get over this one. Why? I was goin to tell you so we could avoid making this spam. I shal do that.

Rey (and Jericho) were bringing credibility back to the IC belt at the time. Throwing it to another no-name midcarder to have the belt get him over, rather than letting the midcarder get over enough to deserve the belt, would have done harm to the belt. Rey was willing to drop it eventually, but he (correctly) felt a longer reign for himself was necessary for the belt.

WWE obviously realized Ziggler was the wrong guy at the time. They let Rey drop the belt to Morrison and never had Morrison drop to Ziggler. Are we going to blame Mysterio for that as well?

Well, that'd be all well and good, except Rey did drop the title to a no-name midcarder. Don't kid yourself, that's exactly what Morrison is. Tell me what he has done that Ziggler hasn't? John Morrison is the exact case of a no name face, who isn't over with the crowd, and just overall sucks. I can see we come from different philosophies, so we'll never agree on Morrison's status. But how about Drew McIntyre? What exactly is he right now, Coco?

So yeah, I don't buy that argument one little bit.

We know how top heels are booked in the WWE. It's not a question of "need" as we know how WWE likes to over-protect their faces. But more significantly, you're overdoing it. "Buried"? Fuck, do you have any idea what that word means? Because if you did, you'd know competitive losses to one of the top faces in the company isn't it.

We agree in principle here. And again, that's taking my quote way out of context. I never said Punk was buried, I said a less talented wrestler would have been buried. When you fail to get the upperhand cleanly on your opponent, it shows you are not on that wrestler's level. You go back down to the midcard, and languish there. And I believe a less talented wrestler would have had that happen.

How would working one show for that company have hurt the WWE?

Well, my point is that it's not really that big in the scheme of things. So why's he bitching incessantly?

Besides that, AAA fans are still upset about that whole "keeping his mask after losing it in WCW" thing. So good luck getting over with that crowd. True AAA fans would have boo'ed Mysterio out of the building, really.

How is it unprofessional to voice concerns over th depiction of Vickie Guerrero? It certainly went too far multiple times. I'd be more concerned if he didn't care.

We agree, but again, it's not like he doesn't have a history of ****ing out the Guerrero name, does he?

Oh wait...

Rey's underused for a guy who's clearly resposible for building WWE's Hispanic base and is WWE's largest draw in Mexico. He's become a money machine and is one of WWE's current largest draws. Are you in any way implying that he doesn't deserve to have a voice in how he's booked? Are you implying that the WWE would be smart to misuse such a clear cut asset?

A voice?

Sure. I'd give him that. But not when he's acting in an unprofessional matter. Again, who has he put over? Who has he given the chance to rise above him in star power? History has shown that when given the chance, Rey will just not let someone go over him. It's the exact definition of unprofessionalism. So why reward him?

-Why shouldn't they appease him?

Because he's been a whiny bitch?

-Taker agreed to take a dangerous spot where a 175+ pound man was essentially flopping his ass on his shoulders. He's old, so injuries happen. If Taker felt Rey was at fault, you really think Rey would be champion right now?

Your second argument holds more weight than your first. It's actually a great point. To which I answer that Rey has some political clout. Not as much as Taker, but enough to where Rey can get this treatment. Even if, yes, he is unprofessional

 

[Coco]

Haha!

You must be shitting me!?

I realise the fact that you don't have to win to get over but Ziggle came out worse thanks to Rey Mysterio.

Right. Because having competitive, career-highlight matches with Rey Mysterio was doing him a lot of harm and it's definitely Mysterio's fault that WWE failed to follow through on his push following those matches.

....Hold on for a moment. I can't stop laughing at the notion.

If Mysterio had squashed Ziggler or had there not been a point to repeat FREQUENTLY how competitive those matches were, you might have a point. But that's not the case, so you have nothing.

If Rey had put Ziggler over and had given him a chance with the US Championship, Ziggler may have been on his way to bigger and better things. Instead, Rey decided to bitch to WWE management and decided, himself, that Ziggler wasn't ready for the Championship and that he would keep it for a little bit longer.

Mysterio was bringing credibility back to the IC title around the time this happened. Hot shoting the belt to the latest flavor of the month in order to get him over rather than waiting for someone to be over before they get the belt does the title more harm than anything. It would have been counter-productive. Considering how active you were in WZCW, I'm especially saddened that I have to hold you by the hand like a child and explain proper booking to you.

Just because Mysterio approached management and asked them to do the correct thing, does not mean he's the bad guy here. I know anything that resembles someone speaking on their own behalf throws up red flags for people, but you need to get over that. And not only was Mysterio right, but he's WWE's rock in Mexico. Occasionaly doing a favor for a guy who's underused in such disproportion to his importance to the brand isn't a bad thing. If anything, Mysterio should be using his clout more often. He's fucking earned it.

 

[Tenta]

Right. Because having competitive, career-highlight matches with Rey Mysterio was doing him a lot of harm and it's definitely Mysterio's fault that WWE failed to follow through on his push following those matches.

....Hold on for a moment. I can't stop laughing at the notion.

If Mysterio had squashed Ziggler or had there not been a point to repeat FREQUENTLY how competitive those matches were, you might have a point. But that's not the case, so you have nothing.

Ok.... You spoke about his lack of a push after the feud... Riddle me this.

The WWE has plans far in advance for wrestlers, no? They usually put the wrestler in six month trajectories, especially after winning a belt. Presumably, Dolph Ziggler would have had the same thing.

Except Rey nixed. All of the plans for Dolph for six months? Kaput. And the WWE scrambled, put Dolph on the back burner, and gave him absolutely nothing .

Now, doesn't that sound like the real version of what went down?

 

[Dave]

Mysterio was bringing credibility back to the IC title around the time this happened. Hot shoting the belt to the latest flavor of the month in order to get him over rather than waiting for someone to be over before they get the belt does the title more harm than anything. It would have been counter-productive. Considering how active you were in WZCW, I'm especially saddened that I have to hold you by the hand like a child and explain proper booking to you.

Just because Mysterio approached management and asked them to do the correct thing, does not mean he's the bad guy here. I know anything that resembles someone speaking on their own behalf throws up red flags for people, but you need to get over that. And not only was Mysterio right, but he's WWE's rock in Mexico. Occasionaly doing a favor for a guy who's underused in such disproportion to his importance to the brand isn't a bad thing. If anything, Mysterio should be using his clout more often. He's fucking earned it.

Bringing credibility back to the IC Championship!? Pull the other one, Coco.

Please tell me how he was bringing credibility back to a belt by trying to keep the title for as long as he possibly could. Even if that meant not dropping it to someone that could have ran with it. In today's wrestling, Championship belts are little more than tools to get people over and at the end of the day, Rey didn't need to hold onto it any longer. No one is going to think any less of the man who beat Rey Mysterio if they think that Rey holding the belt is brining credibility back to it. What a ridiculous argument. Please tell me how holding onto a belt brings credibility back to it, especially when Ziggler could have done the exact same thing and would have gotten him over in the process.

Doing "the correct thing" is a matter of personal opinion. You clearly think that Mysterio continuing to hold onto the IC Championship like his last dollar is bringing creibility back to it and I think that by putting someone over would have been more beneficial to both Ziggler and the IC Championship. The only person that would have come out badly would have been Mysterio and that is the reason that he didn't want to drop it. You know what that is? It's called being selfish! Mysterio needs to get over himself and him being the WWE's "rock in Mexico" and just do his job, if you ask me.

 

[Coco]

Well, that'd be all well and good, except Rey did drop the title to a no-name midcarder. Don't kid yourself, that's exactly what Morrison is. Tell me what he has done that Ziggler hasn't? John Morrison is the exact case of a no name face, who isn't over with the crowd, and just overall sucks. I can see we come from different philosophies, so we'll never agree on Morrison's status. But how about Drew McIntyre? What exactly is he right now, Coco?

So yeah, I don't buy that argument one little bit.

Morrison was a priority at this point. He's beaten Punk clean twice while he had the big gold belt, took Edge and Jericho to the limit, and almost took the big gold belt from Hardy. He was the top midcarder in the company and wasn't going to get any better build for the IC belt. It was the best logical step. The pop when he got the belt was an indication that it was the right move. Yes, it's a shame he didn't pan out. But they did everything right with his push.

Ziggler, on the other hand, floundered with Khali before being rushed to the title scene. It was too soon. Using the belt to get someone over rather than giving someone the belt when they're ready is counter-productive. They're not seen as proper champions and it hurts their image when nobody buys it. See: Sheamus, TLC 2009. The bitching was overwhelming. Ziggler was in the same realm.

I wish Mysterio had been there to tell management to hold off on McIntyre. That would have been too sweet.

We agree in principle here. And again, that's taking my quote way out of context. I never said Punk was buried, I said a less talented wrestler would have been buried. When you fail to get the upperhand cleanly on your opponent, it shows you are not on that wrestler's level. You go back down to the midcard, and languish there. And I believe a less talented wrestler would have had that happen.

You're issue is with creative's inability to make more than four guys relevant at any given time and their inability to book a show that feels important from top to bottom. A few competitive losses aren't going to directly send someone down to languish in the midcard, especially in 2010, where losses matter less than they ever have. This is a creative issue, not a Mysterio issue.

Well, my point is that it's not really that big in the scheme of things. So why's he bitching incessantly?

It was important to Mysterio. They'd be smart not to alienate their biggest draw south of the border, a booming market. Of course the WWEvil Empire is too petty to let anyone have outside projects. See: Chris Jericho; Mickie James.

Besides that, AAA fans are still upset about that whole "keeping his mask after losing it in WCW" thing. So good luck getting over with that crowd. True AAA fans would have boo'ed Mysterio out of the building, really.

Didn't matter to Mysterio, which should have been all that mattered to the WWE.

We agree, but again, it's not like he doesn't have a history of ****ing out the Guerrero name, does he?

Oh wait...

He just won is second run with the BGB, this time without exploiting Eddie. Can't we let this out-of-date talking point die already?

A voice?

Sure. I'd give him that. But not when he's acting in an unprofessional matter. Again, who has he put over? Who has he given the chance to rise above him in star power? History has shown that when given the chance, Rey will just not let someone go over him. It's the exact definition of unprofessionalism. So why reward him?

He put Punk over at the end of 2008. He put Ziggler over by letting him hang with Rey (not Rey's fault creative didn't follow through in the fall). He put Kennedy over. He put Morrison over. He made Gallows look great when they worked together.

Who hasn't he made look great when working with them?

Because he's been a whiny bitch?

He's a legitimate star in a booming market for the WWE who isn't booking accordingly. You see someone who's "whiny" while I see someone with a legitimate claim to what he's asked for.

You don't have to be Hogan or Warrior to be an asset to the company.

Your second argument holds more weight than your first. It's actually a great point. To which I answer that Rey has some political clout. Not as much as Taker, but enough to where Rey can get this treatment. Even if, yes, he is unprofessional

If we're calling everyone who doesn't just shut up and take their incorrect walking orders "unprofessional", then we're using the term incorrectly.

 

[Coco]

Bringing credibility back to the IC Championship!? Pull the other one, Coco.

Please tell me how he was bringing credibility back to a belt by trying to keep the title for as long as he possibly could. Even if that meant not dropping it to someone that could have ran with it. In today's wrestling, Championship belts are little more than tools to get people over and at the end of the day, Rey didn't need to hold onto it any longer. No one is going to think any less of the man who beat Rey Mysterio if they think that Rey holding the belt is brining credibility back to it. What a ridiculous argument. Please tell me how holding onto a belt brings credibility back to it, especially when Ziggler could have done the exact same thing and would have gotten him over in the process.

If a legitimate name holds the belt for a lengthy period of time and takes on all comers, the guy who beats him automatically becomes a big deal if the big moment is pulled off properly, and the belt is a big deal because of how few people have held it. It becomes "exclusive." Champions become speical like that and look like real elites. I know it's not a staple of today's wrestling, where every Tom, Dick, and Harry who comes after a title automatically gets a run with it eventually, but that doesn't put Mysterio at fault for doing what he felt was the right thing for business.

Austin Aries became a bigger deal when he ended the lengthy run of Samoa Joe. Matt Hardy was in a main event feud less than a year after ending the lengthy run of MVP (another guy who Mysterio put over). Cena losing the belt to Edge was made an even bigger deal because of how long Cena reigned and it launched Edge to the stratusphere. Cena's 13 month reign was poised to make somebody for life.

Of course you could go with the standard and make Ziggler look like "just another guy." I mean if that works for you and people really don't want wrestling that accomplishes more than that.

The only person that would have come out badly would have been Mysterio and that is the reason that he didn't want to drop it. You know what that is? It's called being selfish!

I'm surprised you can be this thick. If a guy loses frequently or if a title changes hands frequently, the person winning gains less. It's not about Mysterio losing because losing is a neutral thing in today's wrestling. It's about making the eventual win pay off that much more.

 

[Dave]

I'm surprised you can be this thick. If a guy loses frequently or if a title changes hands frequently, the person winning gains less. It's not about Mysterio losing because losing is a neutral thing in today's wrestling. It's about making the eventual win pay off that much more.

Don't patronise me for having a different opinion, Coco. It is not becoming of you.

At the end of the day, we are at an impasse here and neither of us is willing to budge. Personally, I think that Rey Mysterio was in the wrong for one very ample reason. The WWE management and booking team were of the impression that Dolph Ziggler had done enough to warrant having the IC Championship. However, Rey Myterio seemingly thought different and decided that he would make a stand on the issue. Thus, he deprived Ziggler of his chance with the IC Championship. You point is completely true if he was planning to job to Ziggler at all. If you lose that much and then win the Championship in the end, then of course there is going to be a really good pay-off for Ziggler. However, I don't recall Ziggler ever beating Mysterio for the IC Championship and that defeats the purpose of Rey holding it, for me.

You say that if the title changes frequently, then the person winning it gains less. However, Ziggler literally gained nothing from it when he was supposed to have had a run with the IC Championship.

 

[Coco]

Don't patronise me for having a different opinion, Coco. It is not becoming of you.

At the end of the day, we are at an impasse here and neither of us is willing to budge. Personally, I think that Rey Mysterio was in the wrong for one very ample reason. The WWE management and booking team were of the impression that Dolph Ziggler had done enough to warrant having the IC Championship. However, Rey Myterio seemingly thought different and decided that he would make a stand on the issue. Thus, he deprived Ziggler of his chance with the IC Championship. You point is completely true if he was planning to job to Ziggler at all. If you lose that much and then win the Championship in the end, then of course there is going to be a really good pay-off for Ziggler. However, I don't recall Ziggler ever beating Mysterio for the IC Championship and that defeats the purpose of Rey holding it, for me.

Not when the February 22nd W.O. Newsletter reported that for 2009, the first year since 2006 where Mysterio has been a prominent, well-booked part of the product, business revenue shot up 92% in Latin America, the only market WWE saw increases in during 2009.

But yes, Mysterio holding the belt had no purpose. Riiiiight.

Additionally, Mysterio's run was cut off by a sketchy drug related suspension, so who's to say Ziggler wouldn't have gotten his pay off? Reports at the time indicated he would and they were poised for a third match at Breaking Point. If they really wanted the belt on Ziggler, why didn't he get it at HIAC? To imply Mysterio is singularly responsible for Ziggler's fall from grace is silly. Management or booking must have had some issue if, when they scrambled, they didn't throw Ziggler a bone.

You say that if the title changes frequently, then the person winning it gains less. However, Ziggler literally gained nothing from it when he was supposed to have had a run with the IC Championship.

I put the blame on creative. Ziggler could have been moved to ECW to play with Christian or continued to chase Morrison (on the side of his feud with Miz) into the winter. There were plausible options that booking, in it's infinite laziness, chose not to take. All Rey did was give Ziggler competitive matches and set him up for a meaningful win down the road.

 

[Hazardous]

back to the main point, dropping all the ziggler (who has a HORRID gimmic to begin with, was better as an effin cheerleader!) and jomo crap. the original point was pretty much, is Rey an asshole for the way he has been in the past year or so? to put it simple, Yes! rey owes EVERYTHING he has in the past few years to the death of eddy. thats pretty sad. you look back to 2004, and what was rey doing? he was a mid-carder going up against guys like chavo and noble. for the cruserweight title. and what happened right after eddie died? he won the ruble and went on to WM to win the title.. So, if eddie never joined the WWE, or say never died, do you think Rey would be where he is now? or have the over the top, less believable than Super Cena push? HELL NO! he would be back where he belongs. it is your DUTY as a top performer to put over the younger talent. do you think 'Taker liked losing to all those guys over the years in matches he should have Never lost? i doubt it. as big evil, he put over an up and coming John cena. the Cena/taker feud hlped make cena what he is today. rey needs to remember that only a few years back a lot of people worked hard to put him over so he could get to where he is now, about damn time he did the same for some of the other guys, like it, or leave. plenty of guys who can take his place.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

the original point was pretty much, is Rey an asshole for the way he has been in the past year or so? to put it simple, Yes!

A lot of this seems to stem on the fact that Rey didn't want to loose to Ziggler at Summer Slam. Didn't it ever occur to you that Rey just wanted to have a more meaning fun before dropping to him? I read in the reports that what's Rey wanted; it wasn't because he didn't want to help Ziggler. Heck its possible he was willing to drop it at Breakpoint but got suspended; at that point is it Rey's fault that management decided to give the title to Morrison. Clearley at that point it would have been the perfect opportunity to give Ziggler the title; so you can't put the blame on Mysterio on that.

rey owes EVERYTHING he has in the past few years to the death of eddy. thats pretty sad. you look back to 2004, and what was rey doing? he was a mid-carder going up against guys like chavo and noble. for the cruserweight title. and what happened right after eddie died? he won the ruble and went on to WM to win the title.. So, if eddie never joined the WWE, or say never died, do you think Rey would be where he is now?

Yep before Eddie Guerrero passed away Rey was doing nothing but battling for the Cruiserweight Title. Of course his debut feud with Angle and his prior rivalry to former World Champions like Eddie Guerrero and JBL never happened right or did that happen before Eddie died. Oh wait sorry the Eddie vs. Rey rivalry was Rey feuding with an Eddie's ghost.

I like this ...

and what happened right after eddie died? he won the ruble

I did not realize Eddie died in January or The Rumble was held on November. Let's not forget Rey lasted the 2nd longest in the 2005 Royal Rumble making it to the final four a year before. So I don't see how this holds. Surley the WWE was high on him earlier on.

Regarding the Cruiserweight Title. Yes he was with Chavao, Noble, and Tajiri feuding for the Belt. Remember what Shawn Michaels said in his book "Its not the title that makes the person, its the person that makes the title".

Would it have been possible that Rey had a long program so that it can help elevate the Cruiserweight Title? Much like the IC title last year? Rey was the most marketable and over off all the Cruiserweights so it would have been logical to have the most over Cruiserweight become the top guy of the division. Much like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, or Savage when they won the IC Title, the Cruiserweight Title could have been a stepping stone for Rey in the WWE before getting bigger pushes (which he did before Eddie Died).

Also you argue the Cruiserweight Rey Mysterio wouldn't have been a main eventer and World CHampion if Eddie Guerrero did not pass away. So why didn't we have Chavao Guerrero vs. Randy Orton vs. Kurt Angle at WM22? I mean he was a Guerrero and a Cruiserweight if your argument held true Chavao would be the World Champion by now.

or have the over the top, less believable than Super Cena push? HELL NO!

Cena is a 10 time World Champion; he main evented 2 Wrestlemania events, he was in the World Title Matches of the last 6. He has constantly Main Event PPV's. He has beaten every one there is to beat in the WWE. Mysterio couldn't even Survivor 6 mins againts Batista at Survivor Series and is only a 2 time World Champion.

Unless you are saying Mysterio has the equal number of Career highlights and Accomplishments than Cena. I don't think this is a valid argument.

it is your DUTY as a top performer to put over the younger talent.

Mysterio has lost to Morrison, Punk, Khali, Orton, Chavao Guerrero, JBL, Mark Henry, Matt Hardy, Tajiri, Edge, Batista, Umaga, Jericho, etc.

do you think 'Taker liked losing to all those guys over the years in matches he should have Never lost? i doubt it. as big evil, he put over an up and coming John cena. the Cena/taker feud hlped make cena what he is today.

Taker and Cena fought a couple of time but I believe Cena has beaten Undertaker only once or twice.

rey needs to remember that only a few years back a lot of people worked hard to put him over so he could get to where he is now, about damn time he did the same for some of the other guys, like it, or leave. plenty of guys who can take his place.

Here is the thing about Rey Mysterio. His character and the way he was booked has him as an underdog. The reason why he wins matches is not because he is unbeatable rather because he does not quit. So let's say if Ezekiel Jackson beats Rey, people won't be saying "OMG what an upset ... and a star has been born" ... people would be saying "Jackson is just too big" blah blah blah. My point is bigger guys who beat Mysterio probably wont get a big bump or rub by beating Mysterio; it helps but what do they gain by beating an underdog?

Example did benefit The Great Khali after he squahsed Rey when he was still the World Champion? Did it make Khali a legitimate main event player?

And yeah it helps and that's why Mysterio has lost matches plenty of times.

 

[Canadian-BadAss]

oh i bet lil Rey DID learn a lot from Nash, and he is using it to his advantage right now to get exactly what he wants out of WWE. once they stand up to him and say no, expect him to leave, either for TNA, or to his own promotion in mexico.

 

[Cookie14]

I am another one that has never been a fan of Mysterio.

His in-ring work is becoming slower, almost to the point of being lazy, even careless these days.

Ziggler SHOULD have won the IC title from Rey. Hell, Rey had to lose the belt because he had been suspended for violating the Wellness Policy. But Rey bitched about losing to Ziggler, so JoMo ends up with the belt. I would love for someone to explain that one to me, because I'm not sure how that works.

The last time I can remember a champion leaving WWE (for any reason/period of time) because of their own actions, and refusing to drop it to the right person, would be Montreal, Bret refusing to drop it to Shawn.

It should be an honour to hold a title, and when your time comes to drop it, you do that to whoever you're told. Unless you're a whiney little bitch like Mysterio, or Bret

 

[Prax]

I'll jump on the Rey Rey Hate Train.

The guy is one knee injury away from retirement, he's planning on taking a vacation because he's too hurt and has been wrestling injured for the better portion of the last year, and instead they give him the champion? If that isn't the very definition of "bad precedent", I don't know what is. You can consider this as much of a courtesy as we've ever seen, and frankly, if they want to give him one last run before he's too old and hurt to do it anymore, fine, whatever.

But what truly bothers me is that there's another guy that's been loyal to your company, for even longer than Rey, a guy who's been through all sorts of crazy storylines and matches, has wrestled through cages, cells, caskets, and rings surrounded by fire, and all he's gotten is a day-long reign as world champion. Moreover, he's seldom injured and nearing retirement, and while his current direction is pretty good and entertaining, it's pretty sad that he gets overlooked simply because his 5'5'' counterpart can sell more masks.

The fact that Rey gets a courtesy run before Kane is simply a joke.

I'm so sick of Rey Mysterio. And I seriously hope Swagger beats the shit out of him this sunday like he did a week ago and takes back the title.

 

[Mannic]

rey is a joke and always has been when he was the little guy in WcW he was "okay" he had some great matches with the luchos over there and the explanation of why he has his mask back because he dropped the "jr" and is living in his dads legacy is total BS he lost it and we were always told back then when stuff like that happened to people like juvi & i believe it was psychosis? they held their masks at such high reguard and if they loose their mask they are supposed to never wear it again..


Granted I think if rey didn't have his mask now he would either not be wrestling now or would just be another nobody the mask makes him and is why he is one of the higher "sales" guys around just like jeff hardy was because of his goofy arm things..


i didn't read EVERYTHING here but there was alot of talk on the first page about how he wouldn't drop the tittle to ziggler but gave it to morrison does anyone not remember the ONLY reason morrison got it was because rey got suspended for a month or was it 3months? i cant remember. otherwise i HIGHLY doubt he would have dropped the title to him


I hate seeing him wrestle every time he comes out theres no point to even look at who hes fighting because i dont know the last time rey honestly lost 1v1 against ANYONE taker maybe? I actually like swagger hes a great heel i feel bad that hes gotta fight mystero at the ppv because they wont let crybaby rey drop his title after 1 month esp to a "newbie" like swagger..


When taker was hurt and wasnt able to get into the 4way and they had that battle royal i was sitting their watching with a buddy of mine and as soon as i noticed he all was in it i looked over at him and said "watch freaking mystero win this god forbid he looses anything" and sure enough he sneaks his way into the 4way and wins because of his wanting to take time off and them giving him an "incentive" to stay..


either way i can honestly say 5 years from now or 10 or how ever it takes for him to retire and get away from the wwe.. he will not be one of the wrestlers im sitting around with my buddies talking about "remember rey mystero?"

 

[Coco]

back to the main point, dropping all the ziggler (who has a HORRID gimmic to begin with, was better as an effin cheerleader!) and jomo crap. the original point was pretty much, is Rey an asshole for the way he has been in the past year or so? to put it simple, Yes! rey owes EVERYTHING he has in the past few years to the death of eddy. thats pretty sad. you look back to 2004, and what was rey doing? he was a mid-carder going up against guys like chavo and noble. for the cruserweight title. and what happened right after eddie died? he won the ruble and went on to WM to win the title.. So, if eddie never joined the WWE, or say never died, do you think Rey would be where he is now?

You missed something here.

You missed 2005, where Mysterio was beating a former world champion on a regular basis, still going toe to toe with Kurt Angle, and feuding with JBL. He had plenty of upward momentum before Eddie died and their feud was the top one on the brand through the summer, drawing great ratings and building quite the little Hispanic audience for the brand. Rey was a centerpiece of the direction the brand was headed in before Eddie passed.

He might not have won it in 2006, but he was already a major player and a true draw. Looking at who has won the belt over the last few years, NOBODY can tell me he wouldn't have gotten it eventually.

it is your DUTY as a top performer to put over the younger talent.

Actually, it's his duty to make money. Which Mysterio does. No reason to marginalize Mysterio any further when he's so good at what he does.

Also, if you're going to pretend Rey hasn't put over Chavo, MVP, JoMo, Hardy Punk, Knox, and so-on since his first run with the big gold belt, you're not presenting the reality of the situation. Rey probably puts more people over than he should. Just because he didn't put Ziggler over, when Ziggler wasn't ready, Rey's strongest run in years had increased Latin American business by 92% (the only market where business went up last year), and the IC belt was gaining a lot from Rey holding it, that doesn't mean Rey doesn't put over young guys OR is in the wrong for holding WWE to it's promise to use him properly.

do you think 'Taker liked losing to all those guys over the years in matches he should have Never lost? i doubt it.

Going by your definition of "put over", Rey's put over more guys than Undertaker over the last few years.

Bottom line: To anyone who says Rey's slowed down, well... duh. Anyone who uses it as a knock against him, however, is wrong. He can still work a crowd like few others, and doesn't need to work like it's 1997 to be great.

To anyone who's bitter at WWE for supposed "caving" to his demands, you fail to see the whole picture. Mysterio is a guy who's been marginalized horribly since his first world title run, and deserves better, as shown by the 92% increase in L.American business last year. A guy with his impact on business has the right not to want to be treated like a chump, as he has a lot to offer at the top of the card.

 

[Prax]

Coco, you can't use the Latino argument. If that argument was valid, then Khali should have gotten another 5 title runs since his last one.

The only reason Mysterio is a draw to Latino people is because he's the ONLY legitimate latino competitor in the WWE. Make whatever arguments you will for the reason for that, but as far as I'm concerned, he's grasping on to the remnants of his fame from his WCW days, and has been ever since.

And the only reason he was given the title was because the Undertaker was injured. I'm extremely happy Kane beat the shit out of him and took it, if there's someone who actually deserves it and has paid his dues for that title, it's kane.

 

[Coco]

Coco, you can't use the Latino argument.

Watch me.

If that argument was valid, then Khali should have gotten another 5 title runs since his last one.

Latin America is the only place where business for the WWE grew last year, with Rey being used better than he had been since 2006. In 2005, Rey and Eddie were doing great quarter hours, were the top feud, and helped create a Hispanic base for SmackDown.

Using Rey well has shown actual results. So it's certainly valid.

Show me some numbers where Khali can compete with that. If you can, I won't deny that he should have, at the very least, not been booked like a joke for the last few years.

The only reason Mysterio is a draw to Latino people is because he's the ONLY legitimate latino competitor in the WWE.

So because he's the only one, he draws be default? Are you really saying that Mysterio as a talent has nothing to do with those numbers?

Excuse me while I laugh at you.

Make whatever arguments you will for the reason for that, but as far as I'm concerned, he's grasping on to the remnants of his fame from his WCW days, and has been ever since.

It's not like he isn't still one of the best workers in the world and still a legitimate draw. What is he grasping on to?

And the only reason he was given the title was because the Undertaker was injured. I'm extremely happy Kane beat the shit out of him and took it, if there's someone who actually deserves it and has paid his dues for that title, it's kane.

Paying dues is a load of crap. Jobbing on television every other week doesn't make you special or championship material.

Also, if you're going to say Rey only got something because of Undertaker, you'd be wise not to praise Kane in the same breath.