Defending Rey Mysterio: Bustin' Myths w/ Uncle Sam | WrestleZone Forums

Defending Rey Mysterio: Bustin' Myths w/ Uncle Sam

Uncle Sam

Rear Naked Bloke
Rey Mysterio is one of the best professional wrestlers of the last twenty minutes. I don't feel the need to qualify that. Rey Mysterio isn't just one of the best cruiserweights, or one of the best luchadores, or one of the best technicians - he's one of the best professional wrestlers of the last twenty years. In WWE, WCW, TNA, ECW, AAA, ROH, NJPW; in the world. Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, John Cena - Mysterio is on that tier. Whoever you would put in that category, I would put Mysterio up with them. CM Punk? Yep. Hulk Hogan? Uh-huh. Chris Jericho? Oh, for sure.

Rey Mysterio is a truly unique wrestler. That's not to say he's the only luchadore to ever cross over the border, because he's not. What it is to say is that he's one of a handful of luchadores with such a mastery of the American style. Vice versa, he's therefore one of the most athletically gifted and innovative American wrestlers. I'd argue he's probably the most popular luchadore ever... outside of Mexico. Within Mexico, there's obviously no competing with the likes of El Santo. One must also consider that Rey has spent the vast majority of his career in the United States, so even if there were competing with the likes of El Santo, Rey wouldn't be the one doing it.

If there's one example that titles and main events don't necessarily equal greatness, it's Rey Mysterio. As I'll show, Rey's been a midcarder for most of his career. He's held many titles, yes, but they've mostly been of the tag team and cruiserweight variety. His three world championship reigns - if you can indeed call his third a reign - don't even amount to half a year in total. Contrast and compare with John Cena, John Bradshaw Layfield or, indeed, CM Punk. Rey certainly isn't insignificant - if nothing else, he's been a lynchpin for the WWE for the last decade - but he definitely doesn't have the same historical significance as many of the names I've mentioned. What makes Rey a great wrestler is that, well, he's a great wrestler. He's been nigh on infallible for some time. He's the world's greatest utility man. Great matches from all comers, regardless of where they are on the card, what type of match it is or what state Rey's knee is in.

Oh, and don't confuse me calling Rey Mysterio a great professional wrestler with me saying he isn't a great "sports entertainer" or "superstar" or whatever redundant term you have in mind. I don't make any such distinction; I don't feel the need to make any excuses for Rey.

To put it lightly, Rey Mysterio is underappreciated. Among those who like him, which (not to be disingenuous) is many, I'd estimate that only the minority hold him in as high a regard as I do. What's more, there are many who dislike Rey Mysterio - there are those who think Rey is past it and stale and, worse yet, the sub-human scum who think Rey was never that good to begin with. So let's tackle those criticisms, show up some myths and reveal just why Rey Mysterio is that good.

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Let's begin with some context. If you want the meat, you're going to have to put up with the greens. When Chris Jericho met Rey Mysterio, he famously thought that Rey was twelve years old (and, as such, probably shouldn't have been smoking). Rey was actually much closer to twenty-one. Today, as of 2012, he's thirty-seven, which is only three years older than CM Punk. He is six years younger than Dave Batista.

Rey began wrestling approximately the same age he began *********ing: fourteen. As is the case with many Latino wrestlers (e.g. Eddie Guerrero, La Parka, Sin Cara), Mysterio was/is part of an extended wrestling family. Notably, his uncle was - wait for it - Rey Misterio Senior. It's kind of like a Cranky Kong versus Donkey Kong thing. After performing under several names, including "The Green Lizard", Rey was awarded the name "Rey Misterio, Jr." by his uncle. There were probably streamers and piñatas and everything - that sort of thing is a big deal in Mexico.

Rey's career began proper in Triple A in Mexico. After three years in Mexico, Rey got his first gig in the United States with Extreme Championship Wrestling. Rey arrived in ECW in September 1995 and was gone by June of the next year, but is often used as an example that Paul Heyman, you know, knew what he was fucking doing. Alternatively, a broken clock is right twice a day. In June of 1996, Mysterio debuted in World Championship Wrestling at the Great American Bash, losing to Dean Malenko in a match for the WCW Cruiserweight Championship. The match has been touted - most notably by xfearbefore - as making cruiserweight wrestling legitimate in the United States. Over the next few years, Mysterio would compete with the likes of Malenko, Guerrero, Jericho, a bunch of fantastic luchadores who you probably wouldn't be cool enough to recognise, and win the cruiserweight title five times. He won the WCW tag team titles three times - once with Billy Kidman, once with Konnan, once with Juventud Guerrera. Mysterio would eventually graduate past 'just' the cruiserweight division - most notably losing his mask courtesy of Kevin Nash - but it was made clear to him, giant killer or not, he would never climb above the midcard. On the final episode of Monday Nitro, in March 2001, Mysterio won the cruiserweight tag team championships alongside Billy Kidman. Magical.

In June 2002, Rey Mysterio debuted with World Wrestling Entertainment. The "Jr." was dropped from his name; the mask, supposedly at Vince McMahon's insistence, was put back on; he got funky new music; and the rest, as they say, has been pretty brilliant. Mysterio's won the intercontinental title, the cruiserweight title (again), the tag team championships (with four different partners), the Royal Rumble (while vomiting) and held both world championships. Most significantly, he's participated in some timeless matches - though that doesn't pertain only to WWE.

Right then, time for the meat. Let's get to dispelling some of those myths.

Myth #1: Rey Mysterio was never that good to begin with

Fuck right off. Mexico and ECW I'll give you - those were pretty poor. As Rey himself puts it, those days were like a playground for him - no structure, no rules, just jumping around with his mates. Nobody sold anything and everybody was up within seconds for the next flip or suicide dive. That's all I'm giving you though, so savour it.

In WCW, Mysterio was all those things I've said he wasn't - the best cruiserweight, the best luchadore, the best little man. He had stiff competition/great guys to work with - e.g. La Parka, Juventud Guerrera, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Dean Malenko, etc. You can't point to when Rey main evented this or that; he was, as he has most often been, a utility man. Rey was chucked out in matches which were deemed inconsequential and never failed to put on a good show. This Rey Mysterio was more athletic and daring than present day Rey Mysterio, but, most significantly, it was in WCW that he learned how to structure a match and tell a story. Flips and dives are only impressive if you pace yourself. People will only care about you if you know how to create tension. When you give somebody as athletically impressive as Rey Mysterio this information, you brew a potent combination - as we've seen.

In WWE, Mysterio was finally given his due. For some years (before Eddie Guerrero died, basically) he was still Rey Mysterio: best utility man in the world. However, even after the world titles, Rey has bounced up and down the card like a rubber ball. Need to give some twat a tag partner? Rey's up to it. Need someone to feud a heel with? Rey's up to it. Need someone to curtain jerk? Rey's up to it. Rey's always up to it.

Edge, Undertaker, Guerrero, Malenko, Guerrera, Orton, Angle, Michaels, Punk, Ziggler, Jericho, Cena, Lesnar, Van Dam, Benoit - those are just a fraction of the people Mysterio has had awesome, awesome matches with. The man has enough matches to fill two DVD sets and then some. Mysterio was never that good? Pfft.

Myth. Busted.

Myth #2: Rey Mysterio would have never won the world title if Eddie Guerrero hadn't died

Mysterio was a very popular, very accomplished wrestler, as he always has been. He'd wrestled for a world championship in WWE and was undoubtedly in the ascendancy. If they weren't going to make him world champion eventually, which seems unlikely, they should have. And they did, so no complaints.

Myth. Plausible. But. Ultimately. Irrelevant.

Myth #3: Rey Mysterio has been too dominant/"as bad as Cena"

You know what it's like with faces, right? They get over, they get into the main event, they win the world title and then they never lose. Oh, it's just so very predictable - they always win and, if they don't, it's because of some huge screwjob. Faces become dominant and it all becomes stale and boring. Only no, this has never happened with Rey Mysterio. No, never. Not even when he was world champion.

Somebody on another forum suggested there was a period where Mysterio was incredibly dominant/"as bad as Cena". I was intrigued and went looking through Rey's match history. Here are my findings (I could re-type it, but I'm not going to):

When was this?

Before WrestleMania 22, when the highest he climbed up the card was to trade wins with Eddie Guerrero? At No Way Out, when he lost to Randy Orton? As world champion, when he lost to Mark Henry, The Great Khali and Kane three weeks consecutively, or wrestled Sabu to a draw? When he lost his title four months after winning it to Booker T? When Chavo Guerrero then injured him so badly that he disappeared off television? When he started a feud with Finlay and immediately lost to him on SmackDown? Maybe his dominant run started when he defeated Kane on pay-per-view by disqualification? I'd imagine CM Punk defeating him at Armageddon after that was quite the mind-melter, eh? Maybe he was particularly God-like when he and Chris Jericho traded losses for the intercontinental title? He only dropped the title to fellow super-God John Morrison a couple of weeks later, didn't he? He did look pretty strong when Batista beat him up so badly that the match had to stopped. He did eventually beat Batista, to earn a match (read: loss) against The Undertaker. Maybe you're talking about how unbalanced his 2-1 record against Punk in their feud was? Would you say he was particularly John Cena-esque when he lost the world title after a month, then lost the rematch? Or did this run start one week later when he tapped out to Alberto Del Rio on his debut? He did lose to Cody Rhodes at WrestleMania, but was typical super-Rey when he beat Cody in the rematch I suppose. Was it losing to R-Truth at Over The Limit, or losing to Punk at Capitol Punishment? His one night reign as WWE Champion was bit out of order to the rest of the roster. Then Alberto Del Rio injured him, of course, but Rey made his triumphant return complete by losing to The Miz. And now he's in a tag team with Sin Cara, so is that it?

Damn, Super-Rey! Where yo' cape at?

Rey's matches always have tension, and thus are interesting to watch, because you're never sure if he'll win or lose - both are equally feasible. He has never had a dominant run - it's bollocks. You always know when Rey Mysterio will win? Oh, that's neat, but here's a suggestion: don't fucking lie to me.

Myth #4: Rey Mysterio has got worse as he's got older

Your mileage may vary. Certainly, there are those who prefer the younger, more daring, more athletic Rey Mysterio which we saw in WCW and his early days in WWE. This might sound crazy, but I don't think Rey Mysterio is about athleticism. Sure, Rey is a very athletic wrestler and is very gratifying to watch because of that, but wrestlers who can do flips are a dime a dozen. Go to Mexico and their public transport of choice is the springboard plancha (everybody gets about quickly but there are a lot of spine injuries). That's not what sets Rey Mysterio apart.

What sets Rey Mysterio apart is his ability to structure a match and to portray a character. Psychology, basically - and not in the Freudian sense. The man wears a mask and is still able to emote better than the vast majority of wrestlers out there.

Rey has slowed down in recent years; time and, well, knee injuries have caught up with him. However, I'd argue that he's a better wrestler because of it, or at least has compensated brilliantly. I look at the recent years in Rey's career, at matches with Jericho and Punk, at matches with Rhodes and Ziggler, at matches with Cena and The Undertaker, and I think that, if Rey's age has caught up with him, his match quality has not suffered one bit.

Myth #5: Rey Mysterio is too small to be a believable threat/world champion

This is something I've encountered a lot, and debunked as many times. It's tempting to just copy and paste what I've said before on this, because it all still holds true, but I won't. No, you get something fresh.

First and foremost, if you've ever sincerely said something to the effect of "Rey Mysterio shouldn't have been world heavyweight champion because he's not a heavyweight" you should do one of two things: 1) realise professional wrestling isn't for you since you have no faculty for suspension of disbelief, or 2) go get yourself checked for autism.

I find it difficult to swallow that people actually, genuinely find it hard to believe that Mysterio can compete with, and defeat, larger men. If they do, and they're not just pulling any old stick out their ass with which to hit Mysterio, then I'd suggest their bullshit filter is way out of whack.

Let's look at the last few months of wrestling programming. Three blokes jump out of the crowd and attack a wrestler in a world title match. Instead of having the police called on them, they are allowed to walk through the crowd every week and are then given a pay-per-view match. A large Hispanic man is declared to be "the last Funkasaurus in captivity" and dry humps his opponents into submission. A large, muscular gentleman wears his ring attire on a date with the general manager. Two men with anger issues are forced to form a tag team by their counsellor. Two other men wear ridiculous trousers and dance Gangnam style.

None of that setting off the alarms? Alright, try this... a five foot six wrestler defeats a six foot wrestler. I'm not even sure why I'm carrying on typing - you've presumably snapped your monitor in two out of sheer rage and are now contesting a match between a cheese grater and your erect penis in a vein attempt to return to normality. I mean, how crazy is that?

About as crazy as Hogan slamming Andre, or Cena AAing The Big Show, or Mabel not being a multiple time world champion. Basically, unless you're genuinely pining for the days when wrestling was as much a shoot as a work (I'm talking decades ago, when everything was black and white, not when Punk sat down on the stage) then complaining about these things makes you look like an idiot.

Myth #6: Rey Mysterio is always booked as an underdog​
This is actually true. The myth is that it's a problem. Want to know why Rey is booked as an underdog? He's five foot six.

No, I said your bullshit meter was out of wack - I didn't say there shouldn't be some semblance of reality in professional wrestling.

Myth #7: Rey Mysterio has politicked to stay at the top

We've established that Rey has never had a dominant period. We've established, or are about to, that he's been a utility man for 99.9% of his career, and his total time as world champion amounts to about five months total. Yet somehow people still think Rey Mysterio politicks, takes people's places and holds talents down.

Few people, if anybody, have done as much for young and new talent as Mysterio has in recent WWE history. Whether you're Cody Rhodes, John Morrison, CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler or Alberto Del Rio, you should be rubbing your hands with glee if you're told you'll be working with Rey Mysterio because he's going to make you look like absolute gold. You're going to look fantastic in the ring and you're going to be over like rover because you're picking on the beloved Rey Mysterio. Taking people's places? Only if everybody dreams of a place ON A REASONABLY LARGE STAGE IN THE MIDCARD AT OVER THE LIMIT. DREAMS DO COME TRUE.

So where does this perception come from? As far as I can tell, a rumour that Rey didn't want to drop the intercontinental belt to Ziggler, and a second rumour that he was - shock horror - leveraging for a better deal when it came time to renew his contract. I find the Ziggler rumour hard to believe - this is the title reign which ended to John Morrison on SmackDown for pity's sake. Even if it is true, so fucking what? What, Ziggler was going to get the title, the people were going to raise him up on their shoulders and the hundred year reign of Dolph Ziggler would begin? No, he'd be right where he fucking is now, because it didn't matter for shit. And don't even get me started on people criticising Rey for wanting a better deal in his new contract. It's not like everybody who's ever been employed has done that, is it?

That's that myth done and dusted.

Bonus stuff:

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[youtube]pjzbxeiuxBU[/youtube]
 
I agree with everything you said. You've taken some time to analyse the hate and I appreciate it. This hatred stems from not more than 10 people who point out these myths, and 50,000+ people who just want to jump on the former's bandwagon.

Now, the only time I was legitimately pissed at Rey was when he didn't time his finisher properly on the Undertaker and Taker's nose was busted(legit). They had to write him off TV as dead for the umpteenth time and Del Rio's debut was delayed. Sure that brought out a good Kane championship reign, but one wonders what could've happened if Taker was still going strong and Del Rio debuted the week after and attacked Rey. Probably Kane's monster Push could've been used instead of Henry's and Henry's could've been used now. Imagine a triple threat between Sheamus , Henry and Show. That would've made all the ********* people about the world "HEAVYWEIGHT" championship not being on heavyweight people silent. Now we have an injured Henry, crazy 12 year old ****-chick, bad TV segments and a pointless feud between Sheamus and Del Rio(the matches were good though).

So, long story(not comparable to yours :shrug:) short, I feel that botch by Rey could've been avoided and was inexcusable for such a veteran. Also, the storyline development on Smackdown could've been better. Apart from that, Rey has been one of the most entertaining superstars, despite whatever other people want to say.
 
I have nothing but respect for Rey. I agree with the points you make, and I find that he's still one of the most entertaining guys on the roster, because I can still find myself always rooting for the little guy (something I believe may be largely due to Rey's ability).

However, the idea of trying to stick up for him etc. kind of isn't worthwhile because, quite frankly, there are some people who just straight up either no longer find Rey entertaining, or never did. Rey hasn't changed much over all the years i've seen him wrestle, and even from videos I've seen of him before i started watching, and ultimately this is going to put off people. Some people naturally don't like him being the underdog, or they don't like a small guy being able to beat a big guy and I don't think any amount of convincing can change that, and it's definitely not as simple as busting a myth. If however somebody didn't like Rey for the whole politic show for example, and you had some undeniable evidence that proved otherwise then you might be able to change their mind. But most people who see him on their TV, and then complain about not liking him, just mustn't find him entertaining. Now you can have all the in ring talent in the world but if people aren't happy when they see you on screen then there's nothing that can be done.

In saying all this though, I still believe that the whole dislike for Mysterio really only exists among the minority of people, and ultimately Mysterio's ability to win people over, such as myself, and you Uncle Sam, has lead him to remain one of pro wrestling's most popular characters, no matter what some people on the internet say.
 
Some guys just aren't supposed to be the World Champion. That's not to say he's a bad performer at all. Or hasn't had a legendary career. Not everyone needs to be the World Champion. Some guys are meant to be in the midcard. And have phenomenal matches below the main event. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I read something recently on this site. I can't remember exactly where. I think it was an interview after Brad Armstrong passed. But basically the point was, some guys have the job of making other stars. Brad Armstrong was one of these guys. Amazing worker. Never going to be at the top. His place was to get others over. Help make others reach the top. I believe this is what Rey Mysterio is. To be honest, this is what Eddie and Benoit were too. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that in the business.

The thing is that this is a different generation. A generation where World titles are given out a little more (a little too?) frequently than in the past. So in a reality where guys like Sheamus, Del Rio, Ziggler, Khali, all get World titles long before they're ready to really be a main eventer, it makes sense that loyal hard workers like Eddie, Benoit and Rey would also hold these championships.

I've always liked Rey. He was one of the most over performers in WCW in the late 90s. More over than both Eddie and Benoit. It's no surprise he's had so much success in the WWE. But it's hard for a lot of people (i.e. Kevin Nash) to get over how things worked in the past. Where guys like Hennig, DiBiase and Piper weren't even Champions. They're not necessarily wrong either. Things just work differently today.
 
Rey is great. Another WWE wrestler, possibly CM Punk (can't remember exactly who) described Rey as a wrestler who makes anybody look a million times better than they actually are, or words to that effect.
 
Some guys just aren't supposed to be the World Champion. That's not to say he's a bad performer at all. Or hasn't had a legendary career. Not everyone needs to be the World Champion. Some guys are meant to be in the midcard. And have phenomenal matches below the main event. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I read something recently on this site. I can't remember exactly where. I think it was an interview after Brad Armstrong passed. But basically the point was, some guys have the job of making other stars. Brad Armstrong was one of these guys. Amazing worker. Never going to be at the top. His place was to get others over. Help make others reach the top. I believe this is what Rey Mysterio is. To be honest, this is what Eddie and Benoit were too. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that in the business.

The thing is that this is a different generation. A generation where World titles are given out a little more (a little too?) frequently than in the past. So in a reality where guys like Sheamus, Del Rio, Ziggler, Khali, all get World titles long before they're ready to really be a main eventer, it makes sense that loyal hard workers like Eddie, Benoit and Rey would also hold these championships.

I've always liked Rey. He was one of the most over performers in WCW in the late 90s. More over than both Eddie and Benoit. It's no surprise he's had so much success in the WWE. But it's hard for a lot of people (i.e. Kevin Nash) to get over how things worked in the past. Where guys like Hennig, DiBiase and Piper weren't even Champions. They're not necessarily wrong either. Things just work differently today.

I'm not sure I agree with the bit you quoted here. Rey is a draw, people do come out to see Rey wrestle, in my book that makes him a star. And the best thing is that he doesn't need, nor has he ever needed, a belt to make him draw.
 
I'd like to add to the myths. Rey Mysterio only won the WWE Championship because they were planning on giving it to ADR shortly afterward, they wanted to give him (what someone around here also called it) a "thank you" title, and they didn't want to be in a position where they'd have to say that ADR is the first Mexican champion. Nor did they want to create a scenario where Mysterio might have felt slighted for never winning it while being much better and over than ADR.

I really like Mysterio but that is what I felt about his brief day(s) long run with the WWE championship.
 
This is an odd comparison but, Rey Mysterio this year has kind of reminded me of the Big Show of last year. He's floating around not doing much and just waiting to be handed something and a lot of people (like myself) are just sick of him being built up and knocked down. I like Rey, I like everything about Rey. I just don't like how he's handled these days. I know everyone can't be in a feud but, for one of the company's top stars you'd think he'd at least have a meaningful feud with somebody for something even if it is Rey and Sin Cara vs the Prime Time Players or something built into an actual feud. Hopefully, they'll be able to do the 'Mania match this year to make Rey relevant again.

Also, I personally preferred Rey's more athletic style to his slower luchadore style he uses now-a-days but, that doesn't really affect the fact that I like him, it just adds to my view that no one creative knows what they're doing 85% of the time and as a result it seems that Rey is constantly booked in a lackadaisical way. I just wish he had one last real run, like the Big Show seems to be getting right now to give him something significant so, people can see what Rey is like at his best rather than seeing Rey being a workhorse floundering around the cards and being inconsistently booked.
 
Great thread. I love watching Rey wrestle and have been a fan of his since I started watching wrestling. Thats not to say that I am going to buy his t-shirts or anything because they look ridiculous. If you have any sort of intelligence whatsoever(I wonder about you wrestling fans sometimes), you would know that Rey is a great wrestler. And don't even bring up the believability factor that is completely ridiculous. Do you know what is not believable? The fact that CM Punk would go to the top rope to do an elbow when he can just elbow the guy in the face on the ground, or that Big Show would wrestle a whole match even though he can just go up and punch the guy in the face, and don't even
Make me bring up The Rock because every match that guy has ever had looks faker than a pornstar's implants. Rey is a veteran, a draw, and absolutely deserves to be where he is at today.
 
Rey Mysterio is five foot six and still cannot cut a promo in English after all this time. It's not that his promos are bad; they are completely nonexistent. Because of his size and language impediment, he should never be in conversation as some sort of elite talent.

A small stature can be overcome with mic skills and compensated for with an aesthetic physique. When Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit broke ground as small champions, they were both in incredible shape, with low body fat, vascularity, and pronounced musculature. Rey looks... like he's 12 years old.

In the present era, we have smaller champs like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk. While they are both fine technical wrestlers, they forced their way into the spotlight with superlative promos to become bonafide superstars. Yet, Bryan constantly lays down in tag team matches, and heel Punk hasn't won clean in months. They still are booked within their limitations.

For Rey Mysterio, there are very few wrestlers he can go against that do not pronounce his physical threshold. The infamous feud with the Big Show was an unmitigated disaster and a stain on pro wrestling. A Big Show squash would not have done a thing to put him over, so WWE doubled down on the absurdity and found a way for Rey to defeat a man literally four times his size.

I still remember grimacing as Mysterio stumbled through his backstage interview with the championship belt. With all eyes on him, he could barely muster a cohesive sentence. The locker room applauded, and we all knew this was a token reign out of sympathy. You couldn't call it a "lifetime achievement" award in good consciousness, because there have been so many other more important wrestlers to go without the belt.

Mysterio has lasted this long because:

1. He is Mexican and panders to the Mexican fan base
2. He wears a mask that is a popular merchandise seller with little kids

It's a low-risk, low-reward formula.

Mysterio will get his last big feud against Sin Cara. His fans will call it exciting, frenetic, and dangerous, but unless it follows a divas match, the rest of the arena will use the bathroom. Neither wrestler can draw heat because neither can speak and neither is believable in any dastardly heel capacity. What could they do, beat up Hornswoggle? It will be a "tribute" match to two great luchadores who are nowhere near WWE greatness (and never were).
 
Let's make that an honorary number eight. I think all you've done is highlight how unnecessary it has been for Rey to have promo skills to get - and stay - over. What's more, I'd say Rey's promos are neither poor nor non-existent. He's cut numerous promos over the years and they've never been in broken English or, well, bad. My only criticism would be that they can be rather formulaic; often he'd just had to say the town's name and then yell "6-1-9!" to get everyone slathering their own ankles in cum. But you could say similar things about Mick Foley.

Proof that Rey Mysterio doesn't become a gibbering, Spanish-speaking baboon when handed a microphone:

[youtube]eeAVVzZuTqo[/youtube]

As for Punk and Bryan using their promo skills to get them over - or Guerrero and Benoit using their... veininess - that's fine. But Rey is over, so what does it matter how he did it?

Your claim that Rey - and, much as I'd hate to admit it, Sin Cara - can't draw heat is an interesting one if only because it's obviously wrong.
 
A totally thorough and amazing look at Rey Mysterio that with it spelled out like that is simply hard to argue against.

The only knock I have ever had on Rey was the way he was BOOKED not the way he performed. He simply does not ever leave anything in the back when he comes out and has the lights on him and you really cannot ask for a lot more than that.

All the talk about him not being believable because of his size is just IWC folks wanting to bitch and moan. There is one simple fact about the world of wrestling that all of us realize and none of us ever mention for some reason ...

NOT ONE GOD DAMN BIT OF IT IS BELIEVABLE!! It is all scripted, entertainment, suspend disbelief, soap opera drama.

Arguing who is most believable as champion while thinking that a kickout from a powerbomb is more believable is RIDICULOUS.

What is "believable" and/or not is simply all in relation to each story that the writers and creative teams paint for us. And simply put ... Rey Mysterio competing with ANY wrestler in the ring has been painted as believable and should be taken as so.

He is probably the best luchadore to ever lace them up and has put other perfomers over for 20 years now. If he had not been such an injury risk the last decade (maybe due to steroids) then he would probably have a couple more legit title reigns and this discussion would seem even more crazy.

Well done Uncle Sam ... Rey Rey is a legit megastar in this business for all the reasons you pointed out.
 
Now, I don't dislike Rey Mysterio, but he's not a megastar in my eyes for one reason - he's forgettable. You watch a Rey promo or a Rey match, and for me, you enjoy it but it doesn't stick in my head (with two notable feuds as exceptions). I can't name any match of Rey's that are a standout for me, nor any moment, and the two feuds I can remember are because of the other guys! (Those two being that CM Punk feud you posted a video of above, and the Eddie Guerrero one over custody of Dominic). I remember various matches of Taker's, HHH's, Shawn's, Eddie's, everyone who's become a megastar or has been a megastar in my eyes throughout my lifetime, and others, but Rey's one of the guys I don't remember. And unless something huge happens for me to remember it before he retires, it'll stay that way.

And as for that promo, the only way I can describe Rey's performance is flat. Introducing his family - flat. Talking about all the travelling (and essentially how he doesn't spend enough time with his family) - flat. Singing Happy Birthday (a song with a tune, that theoretically should force his tone to change) - flat. Then CM Punk comes out and it highlights how flat Rey's voice is. Then, Rey begs CM Punk not to terrorise his family - flat.
He made that promo unbelievable by being unable to act his part.

However, I do accept that for Rey to have been over for so many years, he must have been doing something right. I understand that he's a big star - probably the biggest "Mexican" star ever outside of Mexico itself. He just can't be classed as being on the absolute top level for me, because while I never hate his matches, I never remember them either.
 
Here's the thing, I agree with about 90% of what you've said but I look at it from the whole career, rather than the "Booyaka" phase.

When I first started getting ECW tapes in the mid 90's, I was stunned at what Rey could do, not just for his size but as a worker in general, he was easily in the top 10 in the world even then just for sheer ability. Some guys referred to him as the "Tyrone Bouges" of wrestling. Someone so short but so good in proportion to it.

The problem with Rey was that somewhere, he chose to sign for WCW and while initially he did very well there in the cruiser division, eventually he became a "Filthy Animal" and he lost some of his aura by losing his mask.

He came back to WWF/E and at the time it was VERY exciting, he was a cruiser, we knew that but he had the potential for so much more, and one thing he has always had is the presentation. Rey presents himself, not as the "little big man" but as a big man, from the custom masks and costumes to the entrance. From the day he showed up as Spiderman to the Joker, Batman... sure it costs him or WWE money but it shows he sees himself as big as any hero out there and that is the key to his success.

WWE has fucked up the booking for most of his reign but Rey is a hero at the end of the day, there ain't too many of them left in wrestling where they aren't "forced" down our throats ala Cena or Orton or so contrived for a chant like Ryback. He is where he is almost in spite of Vince, not because. At times like all who have some "stroke" he has likely used his influence to ensure his spot, but in his position he has to, he is smaller than the roster, less mainstream and WWE themselves have painted themselves into the corner chasing the demographic he is popular with, Mexican and Latino fans love him, so why shouldn't he get some rub as a result?

Rey's strengths are also his weakness... We aren't 8... we don't want "superheroes" we want wrestlers. But think about those 8 year olds who are basically the backbone of what WWE has been about since 2002, if they don't "like" Cena? They have Rey... Older, more knowledgeable fans see a "has been" with dodgy knees and wellness violations, kids see someone "their" size beating giants. It's the same reason Hornswoggle figures...

Where Rey "lost it" for a while was when he got his family involved and tried to go edgy, but since then he has almost "atoned" by bringing the kids into his gimmick. Cloying as Rey is at times, is there a better gesture in the history of wrestling than him putting the mask on a kid's head/head bumping for that moment connecting with that one fan in a moment they'll always remember? It beat's Bret's sunglasses or Jake's finger point...

Would he have gotten the world title without Eddie's death? Yes... but he'd have gotten it FROM Eddie and that is a massive difference and a big reason why a lot of people don't accept it. As it is he is seen as the "substitute" rather than the proper icon.

A lot of his WWE run has been by the numbers, hindered by Injury and marred by controversy, but so was Edge's...so has Orton's been... Rey is perhaps better off than all of them in that (to our knowledge) he hasn't "fucked anyone over" ala Matt or shit in anyone's bags. His flaws are human ones, he took pain meds cos he is so banged up from doing the crazy shit we all loved him for back in the day when he was past doing so... For that, and the fact he is a guy I can show my nephew and say, this is why wrestling is cool gives him the pass from me, even if he isn't a "legend" in the same way a Foley, Hogan, Austin etc are (for the record neither is Edge or Orton!)
 
"mysterio is small" "mysterio can't cut a promo" blah blah blah. Who gives a fuck. What's the goal of this profession? To draw out an emotional response so strong that people make a noise and cheer/boo/laugh/cry for something they KNOW is fake.

Mysterio does this well. Always has. He's an amazing babyface. He was one of the few guys who used psychology with his highspots in the mid 1990s. He credits a lot of this to Eddie Guerrero. So I guess in that aspect, Eddie is why he became world champ.

Rey is really REALLY damn good. Like, you could write an instruction manual for smaller babyfaces completely based on how Rey works.
 
Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, John Cena - Mysterio is on that tier. Whoever you would put in that category, I would put Mysterio up with them. CM Punk? Yep. Hulk Hogan? Uh-huh. Chris Jericho? Oh, for sure.
Before I say anything, I just want you to know that by and large, I agree with everything you've said so far in this thread. I just want you to know that, so you don't think I'm starting off on a negative foot.

To the point, I don't hold Mysterio to the same level as HBK, Stone Cold, Cena Punk, Hogan or Jericho. And it's not because of what he does in between the ropes; in that aspect he's at least on the level of Jericho and CM Punk, and better than Hogan ever was. It's because, outside the ropes, he's mid-tier at best. I consider him along the same lines as Bret Hart; one of the all time greats, but he was missing that one link that made him perfect. Hart/Mysterio can get by on the mic if they have to, but for the most part they keep their head down and steal the show in the ring.

You may not attribute as much importance to promo work as I do, but that's what it's ultimately going to come down to. I have no issue with you including him among the all-time greats in your own, totally subjective opinion, so long as I can reject the notion in my own. I've always been a promo guy. I've always LOVED Rey Mysterio too, because he's got so much else going for his character that he can still tell a great story without cutting a 15-minute promo.

Rey certainly isn't insignificant - if nothing else, he's been a lynchpin for the WWE for the last decade - but he definitely doesn't have the same historical significance as many of the names I've mentioned. What makes Rey a great wrestler is that, well, he's a great wrestler. He's been nigh on infallible for some time. He's the world's greatest utility man. Great matches from all comers, regardless of where they are on the card, what type of match it is or what state Rey's knee is in.
This is what makes Rey awesome to me. If I were to start a wrestling promotion, Rey is the kind of guy I'd want ten of. Consistently good for a very, very long time. It's like this: would you rather have a basketball player that puts up 30 points a game for 10 years but rarely makes it all the way, or a guy that's really inconsistent but shows up every once in awhile in key moments? You could make a case either way, but the point is, Mysterio is just as valuable to the long-term product as a John Cena type character.


Oh, and don't confuse me calling Rey Mysterio a great professional wrestler with me saying he isn't a great "sports entertainer" or "superstar" or whatever redundant term you have in mind. I don't make any such distinction; I don't feel the need to make any excuses for Rey.
Agreed. The distinction is stupid, and I lose respect for indy guys that try and draw a cheap pop for saying "I'm a WRESTLER, not a Superstar", or some bullshit like that. Wrestlers are all, at the end of the day, entertainers. Pro wrestling is the perfect combo of sport and entertainment - even though sports are, technically, a form of entertainment - so I'd love it if "entertainment" stopped being a dirty word around the water cooler.


Myth #1: Rey Mysterio was never that good to begin with

Fuck right off.
Fuck right off indeed. He's not exactly at the peak of his physical condition these days, but even if you're not a Mysterio fan saying he was never good just points out how little you actually know about wrestling. I used to be a WCW guy in the 90's, when I was first learning about wrestling and getting into it, and Rey (along with Eddie) were the reasons I kept going over to my neighbors house to watch Nitro and various PPV's.


Myth #2: Rey Mysterio would have never won the world title if Eddie Guerrero hadn't died
Like you said, this is a really stupid point to even be arguing. Maybe he would never have won a World Title. Maybe he still would have won the Royal Rumble that year. I mean, it was smart of WWE to take advantage of the hype after Eddie's death, and to make Rey Rey the new Latino face of the WWE. Him winning the title was an awesome moment for sure, and whether or not it hinged on his best friend's death makes no real difference to me. Even if he didn't win the title, I'd still consider him to be great. Ricky Steamboat never won a World Title with WWF; doesn't mean he isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame.


Myth #3: Rey Mysterio has been too dominant/"as bad as Cena"
At this point in his career, Rey should be going over the vast majority of guys within 50 pounds and 6 inches of his size. He's a veteran. A lot of people take that for granted when they say things like "so and so needed that win more" or "Rey didn't NEED that win". Realistically speaking, Mysterio has pretty much seen it all, and beaten every challenge in his path. The only way he should really be losing these days is if a heel cheats, he gets out-numbered, somebody is 2x his size or more, or he's facing another veteran. That being said, there hasn't actually been a period where Mysterio was "dominant". Whenever he makes it to the very top, he kind of gets tossed around like a rag doll. True, he wins most of his matches. I still dont' see that as a problem. Never have with Cena either.


Myth #4: Rey Mysterio has got worse as he's got older
Worse is a subjective term. The last few years of his career haven't really been all that impressive, but he's done a bunch for other people when he's healthy. Is he as athletic as he once was? No, don't be silly. He's getting to be an old man, and he's had to adjust his style accordingly. Don't be mistaken, putting him in a tag team wasn't just for Sin Cara's benefit.


Myth #5: Rey Mysterio is too small to be a believable threat/world champion
Here's a question, at what size do you become "big enough" to be a world champ? CM Punk's been WWE CHampion for over 400 days, and he's just under 220. HBK is actually shorter than Punk, with Jericho even shorter. There's a 7-inch difference between Mysterio and Chris Jericho. There's a 12-inch difference between Jericho and Big Show. Is Rey Mysterio short? Yes. Obviously he's smaller than your average World Champion. Is it harder for him to be booked in ways that make him seem a legitimate World CHampion? Yes. Did WWE drop the ball with his World Title runs and forever make sure people thought he was "too small"? Probably. Smart logic dictates that you don't over-play the David vs. Goliath match-up; instead they did it every week of every month during his reigns.

Myth #6: Rey Mysterio is always booked as an underdog​
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhh. And more to the point, that's not actually true. he's been in tag team action for months, and I haven't thought of him as an underdog. He's fought CM PUnk, Chris Jericho, Eddie, etc. and I didn't think of him as an underdog. Like I just got done saying, WWE over-booked the David vs. Goliath angle during his hot period near the top of Smackdown, and that's what people remember.


Myth #7: Rey Mysterio has politicked to stay at the top
Anything we think we know about the goings on in pro wrestling is at best, 2nd hand info. In most cases, it's probably 4th or 5th hand info, coming down from a friend of a friend of a friend, leaked on social network, and eventually making its way to a dirt sheet. That being said, anybody who's ever made it in wrestling has done at least a little bit of positioning. Anybody whose name you know from something famous probably has. Even Jesus showed up in the Roman capital and basically said "fuck the ROman empire".

Here's the bottom line, after I've said all of that: I really like Rey Mysterio, but I don't consider him in the "god tier" of professional wrestlers. That's reserved for people I feel have the total package and have rend the industry totally different by their impact. There's only a handful of people I even feel are in that league. Shawn Michaels, "Stone Cold" Steven Austin, John Cena, the Rock, Triple H, Ric Flair, "Macho Man" Randy Savage. Probably Undertaker. Had Eddie Guerrero had another 5 years in the business, I would have liked to consider him in that rank as well. He had the total package, in my opinion.

I put Rey Mysterio on what I refer to as "tier 1". He's not "god tier", but he's still among the absolute elite. The "tier 1" talent will go down in the Hall of Fame, always be remembered, but they're missing...something...that keeps them from being immortalized as the "greatest of all time". CM Punk is missing time. Something that will only come with, quite obviously, time. Sting is missing having competed for the biggest wrestling promotion in the history of America. Rey Mysterio is missing epic promo skills that compliment his in-ring storytelling with literal, audible story-telling.

All that is totally subjective, and wholly my own opinion. I'm not trying to take ANYTHING away from Rey, or question your love of him. I'm just putting out what I think of Rey Rey, and where I think he falls in line with the rest of pro wrestling history. Thoughts?
 

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