Religion Thread

[adamny101]

Before I say what i wanna say, just hear me out and please nobody bash me for this. Look, everyone can say whatever they what if they believe God is real or not but I (as a Muslim) definitely knows that there is a god and a judgment day. That is a fact in my book.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

You definitely KNOW that there is? Or do you "believe" that there is? There is a great difference in believing in something and knowing something. Knowing something can generally be supported with observable data. A belief is a conviction that generally is not concrete, nor can it be supported with extensive measurable data.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I just don't believe, I know.

First, I think you mean "I don't just believe, I know."

Secondly, that is great. Please educate me as to how you "know" this. Because from everything you have said thus far, I can only deduce that you believe.

 

[adamny101]

Well, the first thing u do is to read the holy quran. There is an English version of it if u wan to read it. While reading it, u will love what the meaning of the words are. Just do what i say and you'll know what i mean

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Once again...you have done nothing to further your case that you "know" anything. All I can tell is that you believe something to be true. You have not displayed how this is something that you can be certain about.

So, please...how do you KNOW these things?

 

[adamny101]

Ok, in my religion (Islam) there is a God and his name is Allah. Just type in the word Allah and check it out in Wikipedia. All the info u need is there.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I'm well informed about Islam. I got my bachelor's degree in religious studies.

I don't care what Wikipedia says. I want to know HOW YOU KNOW that there is a God and a judgment day...and I want to know under what circumstances this is a fact. I don't want to hear a bunch of dogma about this and that and this and that.

This has evolved into a philosophy of religion/existence discussion and while your personal dogma should remain important to you (as mine is to me), this is a conversation that seeks understanding beyond such parameters.

 

[adamny101]

But that is my point. The story is a very long discussion and i do not have the time. But to answer your question of how i KNOW there is a god and judgment day, i read the english version of the quran and it showed me everything i needed to know and i suggest u do the same like i did. I am not forcing u to believe me of if there is a god or not, all i am saying is just try to read the quran and if u don't find any interest or do not find what u want, then just forget about it.

 

[lordslix0129]

You are saying that people who attempt to conceive of a being that transcends their own thinking as opposed to settling for acceptance of theories that can be "proven" in a finite realm of measurement are simple minded?

Well obviously you have a more sophisticated view about this idea of a god and religion, than most people do. That doesn't change the fact that most followers of any cult are ignorant and know nothing about their religion.

Go read some Tillich. He would have just completely disproved your "atheistic" views.

Lol. Why don't you go read some Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris? I don't see how Tillich's opinion serves as an authorative voice over the men I just mentioned.

Wait. You are placing your authority on religious matters in Sigmund Freud? The psychoanalyst? I've read The Future of an Illusion, and I suppose if you are ascribing to the idea in the first quoted section, then you would be right to do so. Freud never, however, touched on the transcendent, and it reads as very narcissistic and pessimistic.

Which is exactly what the foundation of Christianity is built on.

 

[The Doctor]

I guess you could classify me as a Lutheran, which is a sect of Christianity.

I live my life based on what I believe the "big picture" of the Bible is, which is to love everyone regardless of race, orientation, or belief system. I believe in God, and I believe in Jesus, (both because I like the hope that comes from life after death and some guy in the sky that I can vent my problems to) but I'm not going to persecute anyone if they don't. It is none of our jobs to judge anyone based on anything.

The Bible isn't to be dissected. It is "Word of God" as written AND INTERPRETED by Man. It is not something to take at face value but is a guideline for our lives. And the number one guideline is to love.

I could care less if you're gay, or if you're a Muslim, or if you're from a poor family, or if you do drugs. If you're nice, I will like you. The Bible doesn't say "KILL EVERYONE GAAAAH", it says "Love your neighbor as yourself". The evidence people cite for hating gays is in the book of Leviticus, but people always seem to forget that those are the OLD Levitical laws as followed and recorded by man. They did not come from God. Plus, it's the Old Testament. It was a different society back then, and the books are mostly historical records.

People try to say that religion ties people down with a load of rules, but in reality there are only twelve and they're pretty simple ones: Don't kill, don't steal, don't cheat, love people, love God. It's easy.

I don't waste time on the little details. Jesus says "Love your neighbor" and that's exactly what I'm going to do.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Well obviously you have a more sophisticated view about this idea of a god and religion, than most people do. That doesn't change the fact that most followers of any cult are ignorant and know nothing about their religion.

Well...

Maybe that's because they aren't religious professionals, dude. You use a computer. Does that mean that you know everything about it? No. You know how to use it pretty well, and you know that it makes your life more convenient. But I really doubt you know about the various lines of code that are formulated every time you open up a program. Unless that is...you are a computer professional or have had extensive computer training.

Lol. Why don't you go read some Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris? I don't see how Tillich's opinion serves as an authorative voice over the men I just mentioned.

Carl Sagan wasn't even an atheist...nor is Stephen Hawking. I'm not too up on Dawkins and Harris, but it seems that they just don't agree with any kind of concept of a deity. Dawkins, from what I do know, isn't that educated on matters of religion anyway. Furthermore, his logic is a bit flawed. For example, I've read that he pointed to 9/11 as an example of why religiosity is nonsensical and dangerous. Well, with that logic, science would be nonsensical and dangerous as well, since science played a role in the creation of the planes that physically caused the disaster to occur. Harris...I'm still sifting through him.

Regardless, Tillich would still find these "atheists" to very much be theistic. He argues that by denying that God exists, one actually affirms something else. That something else is an ultimate concern, and it is clear that all four of these individuals have a concern for the ultimate.

Which is exactly what the foundation of Christianity is built on.

Really? Might you care to elaborate on this?

 

[lordslix0129]

Well...

Maybe that's because they aren't religious professionals, dude. You use a computer. Does that mean that you know everything about it? No. You know how to use it pretty well, and you know that it makes your life more convenient. But I really doubt you know about the various lines of code that are formulated every time you open up a program. Unless that is...you are a computer professional or have had extensive computer training.

Err..just to clear this up, I've been writing code ever since I was 11 years old (started off with html and javascript). And ever since I started my professional career at the ripe age of 14, I've been a self-taught systems administrator, network administrator, senior software architect, web developer and many other things like that over the past 8 years. There, I said it. I’m a geek. I stray for a while, and focus on music and art. I try my best, but I can’t help it. I’m a nerd. And I’m perfectly fine with it.

As far as Sagan goes, he never held any theistic beliefs. But I don't think he ever labeled himself as an atheist. Go read Sam Harris's books on religion, he's clearly anti-theism and his books are mind blowing, especially "Letter to A Christian Nation", another one is "The End of Faith", and the ironic thing is, he never uses the word atheist in any of his books.

This is an interview between two atheists, Harris and Bill Maher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4erANdR9Yw

 

[BladeRunner]

I would like to add that there's more ways of looking at things besides the atheism/theism dichotomy.

Those two just mentioned have been particularly popular in the west, but are no means the only way.

Pantheism and Panentheism are two other ways of looking at things.

Pantheism can mean "everything is god" or "everything has god within it" or "everything is holy". Some pantheisms are inclined towards theism, while others are more naturalistic.

Panentheism means that god is both outside of everything, and inside of everything.

So don't think, that just because you reject Christianity, that there's no spirituality to the world and that there's nothing good about religion. Disliking Christianity, and then hating all religions because of one religion is foolish. It's like putting on a pair of red socks, hating them because they're red, and then rejecting all socks from then on. Look at all sides of things and then make a judgement.

 

[lordslix0129]

So don't think, that just because you reject Christianity, that there's no spirituality to the world

I agree. But religion is completely different than spirituality, spirtuality doesn't require submissive obedience training from you, or require you to follow some ridiculous out-dated dogma. I definitely believe in the spirit world, I've had some tripped out experiences because in the past, I've dabbled a bit with communicating with the dead and I've regretted it ever since.

Disliking Christianity, and then hating all religions because of one religion is foolish.

Agreed. I don't hate all religions, I just hate Christian, Catholicism, Paganism and Judaism.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I agree. But religion is completely different than spirituality

No. Spirituality is often a component of religion. The spirituality has merely been institutionalized/routinized.

spirtuality doesn't require submissive obedience training from you, or require you to follow some ridiculous out-dated dogma.

Yes. The ridiculous out-dated dogma that New Religious Movements practice. You know...those movements that arise because of dissatisfaction with a parent body.

I definitely believe in the spirit world, I've had some tripped out experiences because in the past, I've dabbled a bit with communicating with the dead and I've regretted it ever since.

I'm sure that there is some kind of religious movement that exists where people communicate with the dead, too.

Agreed. I don't hate all religions, I just hate Christian, Catholicism, Paganism and Judaism.

Catholicism is a Christian establishment. I think where you put "Christian," you meant "Protestantism." And what did they do to you to make you hate them so much?

 

[lordslix0129]

No. Spirituality is often a component of religion. The spirituality has merely been institutionalized/routinized.

Spirituality is a tool that religious institutions use, just like religion is a tool that most people use for personal empowerment.

And what did they do to you to make you hate them so much?

It's a long story.

I'm sure that there is some kind of religious movement that exists where people communicate with the dead, too.

Religion's are a cult, being an independent spiritualist that doesn't believe in mythical dark aged bullshit isn't a cult.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Slix you are still not covering why religion is "outdated."

I mean...let's take...The Sun for example. The Sun was discovered many moons (heh) ago by some people, yet many people still rely on it today for warmth, power source, and light. Are all of those people misguided by an outdated convenience?

 

[Aversion]

Here's my theory about Christianity:

There are many, many Christians in the world. The belief of the Christian god(I refuse to capitalize it) is very commonly mixed up with the Christian god himself. I believe that most Christians don't believe in the god, but they probably believe in the belief of one. This means that, for example:

If you pray to god for 1000000 dollars, someone had a theory (i forgot who), that read something along the lines of, "There are 3 things that can happen if you pray to god. He responds, "yes, no, or wait." The next minute, you go out and buy some lottery. When you find out the results,
1) You win 1,000,000 and believe that the belief of god is real.

2) You don't win it, and you forgive "him".

3) You don't win it this time, but you win it next time, and you believe in god.

1 is perfectly understandable, it is a huge coincidence to pray and get a winning ticket. However, the belief of god in Christians does not prove that the god himself is indeed real.

2 is not understandable. Why would you still believe in god, or even the belief of there being a god, if you don't win anything? It just doesn't make sense to me. "He" let you down, if you didn't win.

3 is really bad. Why would you win the time after you pray? Because god is not real (no flaming), the belief of god is stupid (respect my opinion), and if "he" was real, then he must be trying to prove a point to you.

 

[FromTheSouth]

I feel like I should outline my opinion of religion, as it comes up often, but I never fully explain anything.

I was born into a family of a Jewish father and a Catholic mother, who converted to Judaism to appease my father's mother after they were married. I don't think she ever fully converted, and I would imagine my religious beliefs at this time are closest to her's.

I was raised as a Jew, I had a bar mitzvah and was confirmed as a member of the Jewish community. I went to a Jewish summer camp and was often called upon in school to be the token member of my community when we would read Anne Frank's Diary or when it would be tolerance week. I feel that I understand Talmudic teachings fairly well, and agree with many of them as a system of values. That being said, much of the Talmud is easy to dismiss as the archaic rantings of a time long ago.

I have studied Christianity a bit too in my time so that I have a better understanding of the way people act. I think I can lump Christians into two groups. The first is a majority of the faith, we'll call them "those who get it." This group understands that Jesus does not want us to close our minds off to the world. Jesus taught tolerance, understanding, and grace. The group of Christians who get it understand that Jesus would want to live his life. Jesus dies for our sins, and that living a sin free life would make it a waste of Jesus' sacrifice. This is the group that believes, both in God and science. This is the group that has fun, celebrates birthdays and holidays and finds balance between the spiritual and the worldly. They understand that knowledge is power, and that God would not have given us the capacity to harness this knowledge if he did not want us to use it.

The second camp of Christians are those that don't get it. Many of these people are fundamentalist. They believe that God wants us to live strictly for Him. They feel that the sixth commandment only applies to other fundamentalists and that loving thy neighbor only applies to their holy neighbor. This is the group that thinks King James was qualified to interpret the word of God and that killing abortion doctors is the only way to sanctify life. They feel the world is 6,000 years old, and God put Dinosaur bones here to fuck with us.


Now, who am I to tell you which group is right and which group is wrong? Well, I am not a mouthbreather, so, I believe that qualifies me. Christians that don't get it have huge power. They are such a small group, but their organization has made them such a powerful bloc of voters that politicians tend to pander to them. They think that politicians do not go far enough to appease them, and for that we thank God. This group does pull politicians to the right. This group does encourage political entities to exercise caution when moving full speed ahead in reform. Sometimes this is a good thing, but as American becomes more and more polarized, there is a certain segment of society that wants to pull us back instead of push us forward. The sad thing is, they, in the name of God, deny God by trying to keep us from using the entire world they believe he created to our best advantage. So many contradictions.

Now, I typed all that to set this up. I, to a certain extent, have moved away from Judaism. I have not moved towards Christianity either. I think I have my own religion, where I understand that the leaders of monotheism, in all it's forms, were all right. We should live a life based on values. Certain values are common sense. We should be loyal, faithful, and murder-free. All monotheistic religions teach this. They go on to contradict themselves time and time again, be in the Crusades or other attempts at conquering the holy land.

We can draw much from the leaders of religion, however. We need to ignore the teachings of the leaders of empires who claimed to be the leaders of religion. The fisherman, nomads, and heroes teach us to love our neighbor, not to kill, to remember our families and respect our elders, for they hold the knowledge gained from a lifetime of experience. However, it is hard to take any of it as gospel.

We live in a complex world, where we are required to adapt at all times. Living by a coded set of rules is nearly impossible in these days and times. What once were considered indulgences are now necessities. We have less time and more to do than when these rules were written, and often times, what we have to do determines whether or not our family eats. It is hard to follow strict religious values and still live a life in which you can appreciate the glory of the world God created.

I think that anyone starting a religion today would need adaptable beliefs. A bunch of "if/then" statements, if you will. Anyone choosing to follow a certain subset of Christian beliefs haas to decide what to take and what to leave. Basically, everyone has their own religion now, except for the fundamentalists, whose extremists are batshit crazy.

My particular beliefs are that no matter what science has determined, everything has to have started somewhere. If you believe that Einstein's determination that time is a dimension, then you must understand that according to Einstein, all dimension (length, width, height) have limits. There is a beginning and an end, an alpha and an omega, and this is where you can find God. God is who started the vast universe and who will end it, and in the mean time, has given us choice to exploit his universe to glorify him through achievement. Everything we do is a reflection of the abilities of God. We move closer to being God-like, and religion serves to tell us how far we have to go.

Religion definitely has a place in society. It places limits on behavior, but I believe that faith is a more important tenant in today's society. I feel that having faith in God allows us to measure our mortality, our achievement, and maintain a reticence in accomplishment that prevents one from being complacent in his own search for Godliness, wherever he may find it.

 

[lghikas]

Umm can't really say I am one certain religion but pretty much what I did or do is just take a bunch of things from other religions and beliefs and that has become my general Philosophy on life. For most of it, it is based off Christianity, and I do believe in some kind of God. I am very open to most people belief and believe that religion serves a purpose as something of hope and for something to believe in, which is needed for people. I am not of one the extremist that will force my view down your throat until you swallow it. I think that has to be one of the most hypocritical things too do, but this comes more into play when talking about History and/or Politics. Also something that impacted or...influenced my type of thinking was...uhhh I believe it was Confucius, was that he said something along the lines that, while living we owe more to the people around us than our God.

Soo pretty much what I do is just take things I like from other believes and values and thats my "religion" and I can do that because thats what I believe in.

 

[King Douche]

Before I say what i wanna say, just hear me out and please nobody bash me for this. Look, everyone can say whatever they what if they believe God is real or not but I (as a Muslim) definitely knows that there is a god and a judgment day. That is a fact in my book.

Can I ask you a question? What does one go trough when they are a muslim? What do you have to do? Is it easy? Hard? Difficult?