Religion Thread

[BladeRunner]

But the point of that quote from Bakunin is that those virtues you've just described are only important and only can be considered "virtues" solely if you as an individual recognize them as such. By itself these "virtues" have no power, we give it power.

Not sure if we should go into Bakuninism though because than we're in a discussion of politics and not religion. I suppose one man's religion is another man's politics though.

Yeah I'm familiar with Bakunin. I've read his stuff. And yes, a man has to choose for himself to go by the laws of nature and live a good life.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

X...

You have to realize that there is an evolution of any religious organization.


The Church of God Reformation Movement grounded in Anderson, IN sought to be very much a spiritual organization that lacked structure. However, after the charismatic leader died, the group had to organize or it would likely disband, and the work that the group had done and the ideals that the founder stood for might be lost.

It kind of sucks, as groups that are founded on loose association often will end up being very routinized. It just happens. Blame human nature.

 

[X]

X...

You have to realize that there is an evolution of any religious organization.


The Church of God Reformation Movement grounded in Anderson, IN sought to be very much a spiritual organization that lacked structure.

The very fact that enough people of similar ideas and philosophies got together to form a "Movement" is in itself a form of structure though.

Really when I speak of religious movements, I refer to the largest ones and the ones that have global influence and affect our world every day like Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc etc.

The only organized religion I don't have a problem with is Buddhism, but really Buddhism isn't so much a religion as a philosophy.

It kind of sucks, as groups that are founded on loose association often will end up being very routinized. It just happens. Blame human nature.

I don't have a problem with the routines so long as these spiritual bodies remain introverted and focused on their spirituality, and so long as that church doesn't consider itself a political bloc like so many do.

 

[Razor]

Sorry I did not read your full posts only took parts out, was a long read. Okay look let me tell you something, I'm a christian right but have doubts about my faith and everything. You see when I was younger I had no problems, but now that I'm older, 18 to be exact I'm thinking like wait a minute is this real? Its scary to know that a man can go to hell like me if I do not beleive.

Yeah, that's why I moved away from Christianity. That and I was surrounded by Fundamentalists throughout my life. I fucking hate those bitches.

Now I'm not attacking your faith, I do not even know what faith you have, also not sure if Ghandi is in heaven or hell. See christians say and catholics too, that if you do not beleive in the ''true GOD'' you go to hell. I hope Ghandi not in hell if their iso ne, he does not deserve it. He is a great and pure man like you say.

There are some Christians who are intelligent and not inherently hateful. In fact, most of them. The ones you and I are speaking of are the Fundamentalists who seem to hate everyone who isn't Christian or any Christian that wants to have fun. It's a shame.

Now on to the satanisim thing, did not know their was more parts, just thought the Levitan or whatever his name is, was the only one. I mean hey if he telling you to be a great person, help friends and attack enemies then hey, go for it. Does not seem wrong to me really. Want to make life good for you and go for the fullist of life, hey go for it.

LeVay. Anton LeVay or something like that. Creepy man, really. He's got his own Satanic Cult, and they are known as the Church of Satan or something like that. Marilyn Manson is a bishop or something like that there. It mainly teachers individualism, and to help your friends and hurt your enemies. Individualism CAN mean being selfish, as Xfear (Mr. Eko as you'd probably know him, name change you see) says, but it doesn't mean a Satanist is inherently immoral, as I argue.

Off topic, what faith are you Razor?

Deist. I outlined what I believe in my first post.

And you proably do not feel the same way towards me but I like talking to you, seem like a cool and smart dude.

Yeah, I got fired up. My bad. You're cool, dude.

By the way love your avatar as it has Velvet Sky sexy ass and the BATMAN!

Thanks on both accounts.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Well, much of the "calling" of us religious types seems to be to "spread the good news" of our particular religious frameworks.

But you know me X, and for the most part, you don't seem to have much issue with my beliefs...or at least me in spite of my beliefs. So, is it possible to look at individuals and attempt not to clump them together as one whole? Like...I don't consider my particular Christian beliefs to match with those of many Evangelical Protestants. So, is it fair to group me with the lot?

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Yeah, that's why I moved away from Christianity. That and I was surrounded by Fundamentalists throughout my life. I fucking hate those bitches.

Are you a reader? If so, I might suggest a couple of books for you. The first is Way of Blessing, Way of Life by Clark Williamson. If you find fundamentalists to be difficult, then this one might be up your alley.

Being a follower of Jesus isn't about condemning people. Jesus was meant to bring light and life, and when people warp the Bible's context and use it as a form of oppression...then the message of Jesus is lost.

 

[X]

Well, much of the "calling" of us religious types seems to be to "spread the good news" of our particular religious frameworks.

But you know me X, and for the most part, you don't seem to have much issue with my beliefs...or at least me in spite of my beliefs. So, is it possible to look at individuals and attempt not to clump them together as one whole? Like...I don't consider my particular Christian beliefs to match with those of many Evangelical Protestants. So, is it fair to group me with the lot?

I would never consider you on the same page as some crazed Evangelical Protestant, but that's mainly because I try not to judge people by their spiritual beliefs. Believe what you will, it isn't the actual beliefs of Christianity that I have any problem with, it's again the political bloc that the church becomes and it's role in global politics.

I was being overzealous earlier, I don't really think of every religious person as a "sheep" or something like that. That was mainly to stir controversy and bait FTS.

 

[Razor]

Are you a reader? If so, I might suggest a couple of books for you. The first is Way of Blessing, Way of Life by Clark Williamson. If you find fundamentalists to be difficult, then this one might be up your alley.

Fundamentalists make me cry. True story. I've always had a problem with their specific brand of Christianity. Too bad it's all I've every really been confronted with in my life.

Being a follower of Jesus isn't about condemning people. Jesus was meant to bring light and life, and when people warp the Bible's context and use it as a form of oppression...then the message of Jesus is lost.

I knew Jesus loved people. So Christians should, theoretically. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll totally hit it up when I get my stipend this semester.

 

[King Douche]

Yeah, that's why I moved away from Christianity. That and I was surrounded by Fundamentalists throughout my life. I fucking hate those bitches.


There are some Christians who are intelligent and not inherently hateful. In fact, most of them. The ones you and I are speaking of are the Fundamentalists who seem to hate everyone who isn't Christian or any Christian that wants to have fun. It's a shame.



LeVay. Anton LeVay or something like that. Creepy man, really. He's got his own Satanic Cult, and they are known as the Church of Satan or something like that. Marilyn Manson is a bishop or something like that there. It mainly teachers individualism, and to help your friends and hurt your enemies. Individualism CAN mean being selfish, as Xfear (Mr. Eko as you'd probably know him, name change you see) says, but it doesn't mean a Satanist is inherently immoral, as I argue.



Deist. I outlined what I believe in my first post.



Yeah, I got fired up. My bad. You're cool, dude.



Thanks on both accounts.

Your welcome. Anyways what are the other parts of satanisim other they LeVayon? And being selfish is kinda a bad thing, but since you said LeVyon preached helping your friends and all that other stuff its not that bad I guess.

 

[King Douche]

Well. I myself am a Deist.

I believe that, first and foremost, God wants us to behave morally. Secondly, I believe that God gave us the ability to reason, and wants us to use said ability to reason. Third, I believe that God has a Heaven set aside for the souls of those who behave morally.

Deists reject as false any religion based upon a set of books or teachings that claim they are the literal and unerring word of God. We also reject prophecies and miracles as being false.

Now, Deism gets a little individualistic after those basic tenets. I blame this on the fact that there is no real Deist Bible or Church. Deism has many famous Deists, such as John Locke and many of our Founding Fathers (Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and John Adams come to mind), and David Hume (who happens to be one of my favorite philosophers). Some, including myself, hold these men to be Deistic Teachers, of some sort. We don't worship them, but we hold their arguments on the basis of Deism to be true. What I'm saying is don't expect me to be take a religious holiday on David Hume's birthday.

I'll just outline what I, myself believe. In order for God to hold moral behavior as a necessity for Heaven, he must seed such ideas of ethics and morals into our very being at birth. Therefore, we are all born with an idea of what is Good. Whether or not we turn out Good is our own choice, something that can be seen throughout the world. How many times do horrible, abusive parents produce children that want nothing more than the happiness of their fellow Man? How many times do great, loving parents come up with homicidal maniacs as children? It's all based on an individual choice, which God gave us the ability to make at birth.

I may reject the world's religions as false, but I do not automatically condemn their masses of believers as Hell-bound. The teachers Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, Buddha, and the like had very real and very true ethical teachings. The true followers of their respective religions thereby follow these ethical and moral teachings. So they get into Heaven. The same applies to every religion in the world. Hell, if Satanism teaches morally correct ways to act, then Satanists get into Heaven. God makes no qualms about why you act morally, as long as your actions mesh with the moral teachings he gave to you.

I mesh science with my own faith by prescribing to the Watchmaker metaphor often offered by religious scientists or religious people who aren't blind to the idea that God may very well not think all scientists are going to Hell for their infernal calculators and thinking that the World is older than 6000 years. God made the Heavens and the Earth and all of Existence through the creation and application of Scientific Laws. The Big Bang, Evolution, Gravity, Laws of Thermodynamics, all of that is the work of God. We use our ability to reason, which God gave to us at our birth, to identify these Laws.

By a very incident of having these beliefs, I also believe that God would not be angry if people were to then use such knowledge to better ourselves. When science understands how to use genetic engineering to make sure we never have another child born with Tay-Sachs or any other genetic abomination, then why would God be angry if we were to use such knowledge? To me, it is not acting as if we are God ourselves. It is acting on the ability to reason and the ability to act morally that he gave us to better the lives of our fellow Man.

This is how I can go about my life. I simply could not believe in a God that would actually condemn a moral man to an eternity of suffering simply because he didn't believe in a certain religion. I also could not believe that many centuries of science that has been tested over and over, again and again, was wrong because they dated the world to be millions of years old. I had to find a way to mesh these ideas, and I did.

I hope i do not sound like an idiot but Buddha was real? I mean I thought he could be fictional like Jesus may possibly be. ISn't that the religion the chinease and other races around the chinease ethnic beleive in aswell?

 

[Tastycles]

I hope i do not sound like an idiot but Buddha was real? I mean I thought he could be fictional like Jesus may possibly be. ISn't that the religion the chinease and other races around the chinease ethnic beleive in aswell?

Siddartha Gotama and JEsus were as real as you or I and there is really no debating that. There is more evidence for the life and workof Jesus Christ than there is for Julius Caesar. China is officially atheist, but some people there, and particularly in Taiwan and Tibet (are they in China or not? You decide!) are Buddhists. Buddhism isn't really a religion at all, they don't believe that Siddartha Gottama was a deity, they merely believed that he lived his life in a virtuous way and sought enlightenment, which is what they do.

I find it interesting that people can be religious, and yet cannot stand the church. I understand how you might have a self realised spirituality, but in all honesty I don't understand how you can reconcile yourself with concepts of heaven, hell et cetera without having at least a passing belief in Christianity as it is presented by the Church.

I am not religious, but I do feel uncomfortable calling myself an atheist. Not because I think God might exist, I really don't, but it seems a little hollow to think this is it. I am not what you call a spiritual person, and as much as I hate blind faith in science as a philosopher of science, I'd rather follow science blindly than religion.

That being said, there are those who are talking about scientific experiments being repeated in a laboratory. I guarantee that I know more than any of you about the Big Bang theory, but I couldn't prove it happened, and neither could anyone else. It's interesting that people are willing to trust something because "a scientist said it" and take it as unwaivering truth, but if a priest says it, it is bullshit.

Put it this way, the greatest scientists in history have spent most of their careers being wrong, and I don't see why faith in them is particularly special from religious faith. A chemistry textbook may be more accurate than the Bible when it comes to science, but what you take as truth in reading it is exactly the same process.

 

[King Douche]

Siddartha Gotama and JEsus were as real as you or I and there is really no debating that. There is more evidence for the life and workof Jesus Christ than there is for Julius Caesar. China is officially atheist, but some people there, and particularly in Taiwan and Tibet (are they in China or not? You decide!) are Buddhists. Buddhism isn't really a religion at all, they don't believe that Siddartha Gottama was a deity, they merely believed that he lived his life in a virtuous way and sought enlightenment, which is what they do.

I find it interesting that people can be religious, and yet cannot stand the church. I understand how you might have a self realised spirituality, but in all honesty I don't understand how you can reconcile yourself with concepts of heaven, hell et cetera without having at least a passing belief in Christianity as it is presented by the Church.

I am not religious, but I do feel uncomfortable calling myself an atheist. Not because I think God might exist, I really don't, but it seems a little hollow to think this is it. I am not what you call a spiritual person, and as much as I hate blind faith in science as a philosopher of science, I'd rather follow science blindly than religion.

That being said, there are those who are talking about scientific experiments being repeated in a laboratory. I guarantee that I know more than any of you about the Big Bang theory, but I couldn't prove it happened, and neither could anyone else. It's interesting that people are willing to trust something because "a scientist said it" and take it as unwaivering truth, but if a priest says it, it is bullshit.

Put it this way, the greatest scientists in history have spent most of their careers being wrong, and I don't see why faith in them is particularly special from religious faith. A chemistry textbook may be more accurate than the Bible when it comes to science, but what you take as truth in reading it is exactly the same process.

Is their really that much evidence that Jesus Christ existed? I'm not saying your right or wrong, just that if it was then people would beleive that he did exist back in biblical times and not have debates that he did not exists and its all bullshit or crap. Also how isn't their alot of proof Julious Cesar existed? You think he did not by the way?

 

[BladeRunner]

I'd just like to add that Taoism and Confucianism are the traditional beliefs of China. Those along with Yin-Yang Theory, which I'm sure you've heard of.

Buddhism came into China later from India. And at first it was seen as a foreign religion, but eventually became one of the three traditional religions.

Zen is the combination of Taoism and Buddhism by the Chinese.

Japanese spirituality is similiar in that early versions of it mixed Japanese Shamanism (Shinto) and Taoism and Confucianism. And then later Buddhism came to Japan.

Anyone who says they're religious and they're from Japan or China usually believes in all three religions as one unified religion.

 

[King Douche]

Some people I read saying on other sites that GOD could be evil himself. Like a tyrant or dictator cause he had alot of people killed and all that stuff. And they also said in the bible that their is not alot of things that said that Satan did alot of bad things. Although he did torture Job.

 

[BladeRunner]

Some people I read saying on other sites that GOD could be evil himself. Like a tyrant or dictator cause he had alot of people killed and all that stuff. And they also said in the bible that their is not alot of things that said that Satan did alot of bad things. Although he did torture Job.

Well, if you think God is evil, and you think God made everything, then that makes everything evil. And if everything is evil, then everything is valueless. And if everything is valueless then why keep living?

Suicide is the best solution for an unredeemable world right? The world of the damned is a hell is it not? A world that has no good in it?

But I don't think life is hellish all the time. I think reality contains lots of good things, if we are conscious enough to see them. Some people can only see the dark side of things, even when the goods things are staring them right in the face. Some people are so deluded that they reject all the good things in the world.

I think the world is good, but flawed, because it's imperfect.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I ascribe to a variation of Open Theism. God created...creation...but valued the ability of creation to be in intimate relationship with God that God placed certain permanent limitation upon Godself at some point after the initial creation process. God is still an active creator, but because God mad initial choices as to how the world was going to be, God made it so that God was absolutely unable to interfere with certain affairs.

Though, this is still a work in progress for me...as is most everything in life.

 

[King Douche]

Well, if you think God is evil, and you think God made everything, then that makes everything evil. And if everything is evil, then everything is valueless. And if everything is valueless then why keep living?

Suicide is the best solution for an unredeemable world right? The world of the damned is a hell is it not? A world that has no good in it?

But I don't think life is hellish all the time. I think reality contains lots of good things, if we are conscious enough to see them. Some people can only see the dark side of things, even when the goods things are staring them right in the face. Some people are so deluded that they reject all the good things in the world.

I think the world is good, but flawed, because it's imperfect.

I do not think GOD is evil, maybe like some said a tyrant but maybe not even that. I think the world is okay, a mix of good and bad. Not gonna say its good nor bad, its just okay. Their alot of bright spots, but also their alot of dark spots aswell. Thats how I see it brotha.

 

[Y2JohnMorrison]

In my personal opinion, I don't think it matters if God exists or not.
I believe that if there is a God, and we will assume it is the Christian God for the sake of this argument, he would more likely grant entrance to heaven to a moral Jewish man rather than an immoral Christian.
If God only allows those into heaven if they believe in him, then he is a shallow God. And I don't want to worship a shallow being, God or not. With this in mind, i believe it is more important to follow the morals that religion encompasses, rather than a specific God.

I am also a firm believer in the philosophy Determinism, which states all our decisions are a result of our environment and our genetics. As we don't have control over either of these, we don't have control over our decisions. If this is true, surely God cannot judge us based on whether we believe in him or not, as it was our environment and genetics that lead to us not believe in him.

That's my stand on the whole palaver

 

[lordslix0129]

I'm a militant atheist, and I believe that Christianity is probably the most dangerous religion in the world. I believe organized religions are a crutch for simple minded people, not that every believer out there is simple minded, but most people who are religious aren't bright enough to understand the theories behind quantum physics and science, or they just don't care enough to learn.

I doubt that any human conceived idea of a judgmental god has ever existed, especially a judeo-christian god.

Siddartha Gotama and JEsus were as real as you or I and there is really no debating that. There is more evidence for the life and workof Jesus Christ, than there is for Julius Caesar.

Well, that's impossible because there is no proof whatsoever that Christ, the son of God and the man who resurrected, ever lived at all. Now, if you're talking about Yeshua, a man who was a teacher, carpenter, whatever, then you'd have a point. But Christ is a fictitious character in a jewish book of fairy tales.



"The idea of God was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind." -Sigmund Freud

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I'm a militant atheist, and I believe that Christianity is probably the most dangerous religion in the world. I believe organized religions are a crutch for simple minded people, not that every believer out there is simple minded, but most people who are religious aren't bright enough to understand the theories behind quantum physics and science, or they just don't care enough to learn.

Wait.

You are saying that people who attempt to conceive of a being that transcends their own thinking as opposed to settling for acceptance of theories that can be "proven" in a finite realm of measurement are simple minded?

I doubt that any human conceived idea of a judgmental god has ever existed, especially a judeo-christian god.

Go read some Tillich. He would have just completely disproved your "atheistic" views.

Well, that's impossible because there is no proof whatsoever that Christ, the son of God and the man who resurrected, ever lived at all. Now, if you're talking about Yeshua, a man who was a teacher, carpenter, whatever, then you'd have a point. But Christ is a fictitious character in a jewish book of fairy tales.

LOL. I will tackle this when I get back from the gym.

"The idea of God was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind." -Sigmund Freud

Wait. You are placing your authority on religious matters in Sigmund Freud? The psychoanalyst? I've read The Future of an Illusion, and I suppose if you are ascribing to the idea in the first quoted section, then you would be right to do so. Freud never, however, touched on the transcendent, and it reads as very narcissistic and pessimistic.

 

[King Douche]

In my personal opinion, I don't think it matters if God exists or not.
I believe that if there is a God, and we will assume it is the Christian God for the sake of this argument, he would more likely grant entrance to heaven to a moral Jewish man rather than an immoral Christian.
If God only allows those into heaven if they believe in him, then he is a shallow God. And I don't want to worship a shallow being, God or not. With this in mind, i believe it is more important to follow the morals that religion encompasses, rather than a specific God.

I am also a firm believer in the philosophy Determinism, which states all our decisions are a result of our environment and our genetics. As we don't have control over either of these, we don't have control over our decisions. If this is true, surely God cannot judge us based on whether we believe in him or not, as it was our environment and genetics that lead to us not believe in him.

That's my stand on the whole palaver

I do not think you can blame your environment cause surely you can still go out of your way to try and learn if GOD is real or not. Or simply beleive in GOD and go to church.

 

[King Douche]

I do not see how people can beleive in science as the thing that created or started everything. Their had to be a supreme being who started everything off and created it. I just feel deep down inside me that their is a GOD, maybe not the chrisan god, but their is a GOD.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I do not see how people can beleive in science as the thing that created or started everything. Their had to be a supreme being who started everything off and created it. I just feel deep down inside me that their is a GOD, maybe not the chrisan god, but their is a GOD.

Ok. There didn't HAVE to be. You can't prove one way or the other using that kind of logic. It might make the most sense from your perspective...but there surely didn't HAVE to be a supreme being in the sense that you are claiming.

And for future reference, 99% of the time when you say "their" you should be using "there." It would make reading your posts easier.

Edit: Also...in the post enlightenment era...saying that you "feel" something as a stand alone argument isn't going to fly very far.

 

[King Douche]

Ok. There didn't HAVE to be. You can't prove one way or the other using that kind of logic. It might make the most sense from your perspective...but there surely didn't HAVE to be a supreme being in the sense that you are claiming.

And for future reference, 99% of the time when you say "their" you should be using "there." It would make reading your posts easier.

Edit: Also...in the post enlightenment era...saying that you "feel" something as a stand alone argument isn't going to fly very far.

Why you say that? Also I know there doesn't have to be a supreme being, but I just have a gut feeling that it is a supreme being.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

You said that there HAS to be. Now you aren't. I'm just wondering what you are really thinking.

"Feeling" just holds no authority. "Thinking" is what needs to happen. "I think this because _____." The enlightenment brought with it a love for reason and things needed to be explained in concrete ways. Thomas Jefferson is a good example. The Jefferson Bible is Jefferson's version of the Christian Scriptures that has had all occurrences that could not be explained using reason removed.