Religion, No Politics. Half the Things We Never Talk About.

[Danger Burger]

Did you happen to note the fact it's a book written over 2000 years ago written by fallible human beings?

Time to move on. The Bible ran its course, but in today's enlightened society, all it does is serve as an albatross to Christianity.

I did notice that, and i dont use at as much of a guide for anything other than how to share fish and loaves of bread.

I see the old testament (as i've shared earlier in the thread) as simply an allegory for social cohesion. It goes through biology, not morals, when saying hey dont sleep with dudes or chicks on their periods, and seems to me to be alluding to creating life with those guidelines.

The ten commandments are no different.
One God= Less Arguing, respecting elders, murder/theft/adultery all weaken the tribe. It just seems like guidelines for getting along and keeping a group together.

Jesus came in the sequal and simplified things to "be cool" and follow dude love.

The first books guidelines have been replaced by the institute of law, and being cool to people has never caused much harm to anyone. Other than that, following outdated words to a tee sounds like a terrible idea to me, and should to most others. The message is good, but needs a reboot to make sense in todays world.

On the other hand, the satanic bible (laVey satanism, not voodoo devil woshiping) is a better guide to living in this day and age (maybe because its not two thousand years old?) though is morals sometimes clash with mine. And the writer looks creepy, stereotypically evil.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

Did you happen to note the fact it's a book written over 2000 years ago written by fallible human beings?

Time to move on. The Bible ran its course, but in today's enlightened society, all it does is serve as an albatross to Christianity.

It's a book with 120 smaller books written by 60 different authors over a span of several thousand years and they all seem to be saying the same thing. It's well known that most of these people had no clue about the other authors. And yet they seem to point towards the same thing or at least make the same point.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. - Eph. 5:5

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Cor. 6: 9-11

I don't throw these at you to judge you or to guilt you. That would be silly, because I don't hold to the Bible in a way that would make my doing so anything but hypocritical. I even left the Old Testament out of the picture to give you a fighting chance! I list them, because you just said you take the Bible "as is". There is hope in the words of verse 11 from Paul's letter to the Corinthians. "And such were some of you. But you were washed" ... "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ..." There is judgement for the act, but hope for redemption. And I think it is that hope that a draws people to Christianity, and in turn the message of Christ. It's almost poetic in nature. But you seem to just deny portions that are, again, convenient for you, but at the same time take the Bible for face value?

So by your own standards, standards which you take from the Bible, you are guilty of sexual immorality. And you take the Bible "as is". So, by a mathematical property I don't know anything about (I think it's the transverse?), you "have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." I'm not trying to scare you, I'm trying to show you how your own backwards code of moral conduct should SCARE THE FUCK OUT OF YOU! And yet, you're so apathetic about it...

Imagine that, the agnostic telling the Christian he's going to hell. I'm not, of course. I just appreciate good irony. I'm not event trying to "convict" you, or whatever word Christians use for filling somebody with guilt these days. If I believed in hell, I'd probably feel like a big jerk. At most I'm condemning you to the same fate I believe everyone else on the planet faces too... Dirt.

It's a good thing for your soul there's the option of sanctification. But what does that entail for you? Can you just wait until you get married and say a little prayer like "yeah...sorry for having sex before now...we're all good right?" How does that work?

We plan to stop having sex about 6 months before we get married. We'll probably ask for forgiveness then. I see what you are saying. I'm a go with the flow kind of guy but yea it does scare me sometimes. My point is, Jesus died for our sins so that we can ask forgiveness for our sins. You have to be sincere of course.

 

[Danger Burger]

I'm not event trying to "convict" you, or whatever word Christians use for filling somebody with guilt these days.

I think we either condemn, or go straight to damning!

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I usually tell people I'm an atheist because I deny the existence of all the purported gods mankind has put forth, but I don't necessarily deny the concept that a higher power can exist because IMO a higher power can exist — we're simply yet to see the evidence for it thus far.

In that sense, I'm an atheistic agnostic, but I'm not going to get into the details over what that means to someone who isn't likely to understand it, so for all intents and purposes, in a discussion with someone like that, I'm simply an atheist.

I choose to believe there is no god, gods, celestial voice UNTIL sufficient evidence can be provided to support it otherwise. I'm open to change, provided that change is demonstrable and empirical.

 

[Coco]

Coco, do you change your picture and quote every day? I can't keep track of you, man.

Haven't changed my pictures and quote yet today. Drink it in.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

After 7 year's of Catholic school 1 thing I realized was religion isn't for me, it seems way too preachy and far fetched for my taste. Take the Christian God for example, at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you are a good or bad person, as long as you ask for forgiveness, go to church every Sunday and get Baptized then chances are you are going to Heaven (unless the person is a Hitler like asshole), but if you are an awesome person who always does good deeds you will go to hell if you don't go to church or get baptized. I'm sorry if God cares that much about baptism and asking for forgiveness then frankly I don't wanna go to heaven.

If there is a god I really don't see him being that short sighted and I certainly don't see him telling some guy to write out his words for the world to see, my guess is he would tell the world himself. If Moses existed today he would be in jail or a mental institution.

With that said I'm not an atheist and I'm not against religion, it's just not for me. Religion is a 2 way street, if its taught properly it can certainly enrich some peoples lives and do wonders for them, if taught improperly it can bring more destruction than anything else on the planet. Maybe I feel this way because I was taught religion improperly, who knows, but I get along just fine without it.

I assume there is a god of some sort although I don't pretend to know what it is. I just highly doubt that any religion on earth has it correct, the idea just seems far fetched to me.

If there is a god this what I figure: It is all powerful, more wise and understanding than anyone who ever lived and probably welcomes all good people into the afterlife with open arms and makes the bad people prove themselves before they are welcome. No matter how bad anyone is I don't think God would ever turn their backs on them but they have to prove they can be something besides being bad. Other than that I don't really care to know anything about God, if it's there I will find out all I need to know when I die.

 

[Coco]

I'm sorry if God cares that much about baptism and asking for forgiveness then frankly I don't wanna go to heaven.

Easy to be an indignant prick until you feel the scorching fires of hell, isn't it?

 

[Lowdown]

I usually tell people I'm an atheist because I deny the existence of all the purported gods mankind has put forth, but I don't necessarily deny the concept that a higher power can exist because IMO a higher power can exist — we're simply yet to see the evidence for it thus far.

In that sense, I'm an atheistic agnostic, but I'm not going to get into the details over what that means to someone who isn't likely to understand it, so for all intents and purposes, in a discussion with someone like that, I'm simply an atheist.

I choose to believe there is no god, gods, celestial voice UNTIL sufficient evidence can be provided to support it otherwise. I'm open to change, provided that change is demonstrable and empirical.

I think of my wife like this, but moreso agnostic. I do believe in God, though I can't provide any explanation to an atheist. My mother had me in a Christian and Catholic school throughout me elementary and junior high years, so religion was infused in the curriculum heavily. Now I'm considered religious science, where I'm open to just about any religion I believe, though I'm no theologist by any means. Moms was a devout Christian, but not a Bible thumper. I would often debate with her about aspects of the Bible, most of which are contradictory. There were time she thought I was becoming an atheist, which for some reason she said that they scare her. I told her that I do understand where some atheists come from wherein they want physical evidence in order to believe in a higher power.

Now as you can see, I'm 31 years old. I've been questioning a lot of religion and ideals for the better part of my adult life. I've come across quite a few folks younger than myself that are a part of the new atheist movement. For the most part when I ask them questions about how much they truly know about Christianity (moms always said atheist know more about the Bible than Christians and Catholics so they can go against the word of God), they seem dumbfounded. One of my boys back home used to always put his faith in history, but I would tell him that you can't always believe what you see on the History channel aor the stuff they teach you in school. To each his own, really. But I think most cats that are younger than 25 probably just follow what they think is hip and trendy, like a "God sucks" attitude.

What it boils down to is what makes each of us a better person. You don't need to believe in a deity to be a good man or woman. Not all the answers to life's issues is within a clothed book. Its all about looking inward. I recommend that y'all should check out Tom Leykis on the internet (Google him). Occasionally he does an "Ask the Atheist" segment. Most of the callers tend to get argumentative, but he does approach this with sound and logic. We all should keep an open mind to beliefs that surround us, even if you don't agree with them.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Easy to be an indignant prick until you feel the scorching fires of hell, isn't it?

Calm down there Superstar Billy Graham.

 

[IHW]

Ill throw my two cents in here.

I am a Christian. I do believe in God. That doesn't mean I go to Church every time the doors are opened. That don't mean I don't hang out with some friend and throw back some cold ones. It doesn't mean I follow every single rule or guideline stated in the Bible. It simply means I know that I will be punished or my wrong doings and that I will live on after death. Thats what I want to believe; and I do.

Another thing I feel is that God wouldn't have put us on this Earth just to do it. We are here for a purpose, and that may be to have a little fun and enjoy life. I try to remember to pray often. I try not to lie. But, it happens. I am only human. I am living life to its fullest and will go to Heaven when I die.

Thats what I believe.

 

[SD619]

Religion is always something that I have been a bit confused about. I have been raised in an orthodox Hindu family, almost all of whom are staunch believers. While I do believe that 'God' exists, I don't see the point of putting a name to it. All religions preach the same basic human principles. Its just calling it a difference name.

My religious belief is that 'God helps those who help themselves'. I see a lot of people who do nothing and then pray that God will do it. For example, if you don't study and fail an exam, its your fault and its not God that has let you down.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Religion is always something that I have been a bit confused about. I have been raised in an orthodox Hindu family, almost all of whom are staunch believers. While I do believe that 'God' exists, I don't see the point of putting a name to it. All religions preach the same basic human principles. Its just calling it a difference name.

My religious belief is that 'God helps those who help themselves'. I see a lot of people who do nothing and then pray that God will do it. For example, if you don't study and fail an exam, its your fault and its not God that has let you down.

But if you study and pass, God helped you?

What's the purpose for God in any of those scenarios?

 

[SD619]

But if you study and pass, God helped you?

What's the purpose for God in any of those scenarios?

Not exactly my point. What I was trying to say was that there are a lot of 'believers' who sort of relegate their responsibility to God. While I do believe that God exists, I would much rather do my work myself than rely on God and then blame him. Atleast I would that it is my fault.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Not exactly my point. What I was trying to say was that there are a lot of 'believers' who sort of relegate their responsibility to God. While I do believe that God exists, I would much rather do my work myself than rely on God and then blame him. Atleast I would that it is my fault.

Right, so why believe in God if you're not going to follow his purported tenants?

If the Bible isn't the inspired word of God that you are expected to follow, support and respect, why believe in [that] God in the first place?

 

[SD619]

Right, so why believe in God if you're not going to follow his purported tenants?

If the Bible isn't the inspired word of God that you are expected to follow, support and respect, why believe in [that] God in the first place?

Because not everything can be explained by religion (or science for that matter).

 

[It's Damn Real!]

So this is just Pascal's Wager then? You're hedging your bets?

 

[Барбоса]

It's a book with 120 smaller books written by 60 different authors over a span of several thousand years and they all seem to be saying the same thing. It's well known that most of these people had no clue about the other authors. And yet they seem to point towards the same thing or at least make the same point.

So many half-truths here. Some verge on lies.

The OT isn't even the oldest surviving work of literature. Virtually no part of the Bible is more than 2300 years old. The Old Testament was written after those Jews that returned to Israel after the Babylonian Captivity brought with them a more monotheist Judaism with them. Previous to that, Yahweh was just one of many gods in the Jewish Pantheon.

Most of the stories encapsulated in the Books were just that - stories; fables like Jesus' Good Samaritan, which might have the loosest of historical basis, like the myths of Hercules, Jason and the Argonauts, the Trojan Wars and Gilgamesh, used, maintained and embellished through oral traditions to teach the listener a moral/ethical lesson.

Those "60 different authors" is also more likely closer to 16 or even 6 - scribes employed by the restored Jewish high priests in Jerusalem to give more structure to the new monoteistic Judaism; similarly with Christianity who needed structure to survive their own diaspora in the wake of Jewish persecution and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. Both Testaments carefully edited to remove sections, sometimes entire books that might be 'harmful' and to make sure that they all point towards the same thing (although not with complete success given that different books contradict each other on certain events, making the Bible's 'infallibility' a joke even before you get into the whole spirituality of it all).

Take the Gospels for instance. On the surface they would seem to have four different authors all giving an eye-witness (and at times conflicting) account of Jesus' last week in and around Jerusalem. However, it is now widely accepted that all four Gospels are actually not eye-witness accounts, being written as late as 120CE. They are also considered to be derivatives of and borrow heavily from each other - hence the naming of Proto-Matthew and Proto-Luke - and from a missing source known as Quelle.

 

[IHW]

One thing I do know about Religion is that it is the most stupid thing to argue about. Believe what you believe in your own heart. If God shows himself in your life, then you have a wonderful reason to believe in him. If not, then you may doubt him or have no religious view whatsoever. I don't see why people argue about it so much.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

So many half-truths here. Some verge on lies.

The OT isn't even the oldest surviving work of literature. Virtually no part of the Bible is more than 2300 years old. The Old Testament was written after those Jews that returned to Israel after the Babylonian Captivity brought with them a more monotheist Judaism with them. Previous to that, Yahweh was just one of many gods in the Jewish Pantheon.

Most of the stories encapsulated in the Books were just that - stories; fables like Jesus' Good Samaritan, which might have the loosest of historical basis, like the myths of Hercules, Jason and the Argonauts, the Trojan Wars and Gilgamesh, used, maintained and embellished through oral traditions to teach the listener a moral/ethical lesson.

Those "60 different authors" is also more likely closer to 16 or even 6 - scribes employed by the restored Jewish high priests in Jerusalem to give more structure to the new monoteistic Judaism; similarly with Christianity who needed structure to survive their own diaspora in the wake of Jewish persecution and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. Both Testaments carefully edited to remove sections, sometimes entire books that might be 'harmful' and to make sure that they all point towards the same thing (although not with complete success given that different books contradict each other on certain events, making the Bible's 'infallibility' a joke even before you get into the whole spirituality of it all).

Take the Gospels for instance. On the surface they would seem to have four different authors all giving an eye-witness (and at times conflicting) account of Jesus' last week in and around Jerusalem. However, it is now widely accepted that all four Gospels are actually not eye-witness accounts, being written as late as 120CE. They are also considered to be derivatives of and borrow heavily from each other - hence the naming of Proto-Matthew and Proto-Luke - and from a missing source known as Quelle.

My information came from a guy who has studied the bible for well over 10 years. If you want to dispute it with him then I'm more than willing to hook you two up, make some popcorn, and watch the debate.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

One thing I do know about Religion is that it is the most stupid thing to argue about. Believe what you believe in your own heart. If God shows himself in your life, then you have a wonderful reason to believe in him. If not, then you may doubt him or have no religious view whatsoever. I don't see why people argue about it so much.

Because it massively affects the day-to-day lives of MILLIONS of people?

You talk about it like people arguing whether to have the fork on the left or right of the plate. It's not that trivial. This is a topic/discussion that shapes countries, justifies wars, mass murder, bigotry, hatred and death and (in the eyes of unbelievers) enslaves masses of people in mental prisons.

I don't see why people don't argue about it more.

 

[Slyfox696]

I don't see why people don't argue about it more.

Because people don't want to debate it, they want to argue it. They aren't interested in hearing anything rational, unless it comes from the side they believe in.

You can explain all day long to a hardcore Christian that evolution is not only a scientific theory, but one with tangible evidence and one that satisfies most requirements of a scientific theory. The hardcore Christian isn't interested in that, they are simply going to believe their 2000+ year old book written by fallible beings.

This is why the Bible needs to gotten rid of, and replaced with something which provides common sense.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Because people don't want to debate it, they want to argue it. They aren't interested in hearing anything rational, unless it comes from the side they believe in.

You can explain all day long to a hardcore Christian that evolution is not only a scientific theory, but one with tangible evidence and one that satisfies most requirements of a scientific theory. The hardcore Christian isn't interested in that, they are simply going to believe their 2000+ year old book written by fallible beings.

This is why the Bible needs to gotten rid of, and replaced with something which provides common sense.

That takes generations and hundreds of years to assimilate into a culture, unfortunately. It's why we know about these things as "ages" — the Renaissance Age, the Age of Reason, etc. etc.

For me the issue is religion, period, because all of them (especially the three major monotheistic ones) take an absolutist POV on issues they purports to have the answers to (when they can't possibly actually have them). That, in turn, perpetuates a stigma of ignorance, which keeps the uninformed and uneducated alive and well, and for a lot of people that really is bliss.

It's like you just made light of — how do you teach someone who has no interest in learning? It's an endless cycle.

I'd also argue that that line about them not wanting to listen unless it comes from their side isn't entirely true, at least not at face value. I've yet to encounter an atheist who refuses to accept new scientific theory or who isn't willing to completely abandon a principle belief if demonstrable evidence can be provided to debunk it. Quite the opposite for theists.

 

[IHW]

Because it massively affects the day-to-day lives of MILLIONS of people?

You talk about it like people arguing whether to have the fork on the left or right of the plate. It's not that trivial. This is a topic/discussion that shapes countries, justifies wars, mass murder, bigotry, hatred and death and (in the eyes of unbelievers) enslaves masses of people in mental prisons.

I don't see why people don't argue about it more.

I just don't feel that it is something that should be argued about. Discussing it like most of us have been is fine. But a lot of people take it way over the top.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I just don't feel that it is something that should be argued about. Discussing it like most of us have been is fine. But a lot of people take it way over the top.

I don't disagree. Civil discourse is required to necessitate any change in something this sensitive.

I probably misinterpreted your point to mean something you didn't intend.