Punk Wins (Again)! Punk Wins (Again)! Is He a Heel?

[The_Phoenix]

Sorry if this is a repeat thread, merge if it is.

Ok, for speculative purposes, let's assume that Jeff Hardy is on his way out of the WWE. Considering CM Punk's well documented straight-edge lifestyle as well as Jeff Hardy's well documented addictions and demons, why didn't this occur to me sooner?

Picture this, CM Punk calling out Jeff Hardy. Hardy obviously answers and makes his way down to the ring, and now we have two of the most over faces on Smackdown in the ring. Have Punk proceed to sing Hardy's praises for a few minutes to set up the swerve before he turns things around to criticize Hardy for his past sins. This sets up the holier-than-thou persona that people love to hate. Have them go back and forth via promos until Extreme rules where, again for the sake of speculation, CM Punk puts the MITB briefcase on the line in a ladder match. Punk wins the match, keeping the briefcase and getting a pre-rub off of Jeff Hardy. Next Smackdown, Punk comes out gloating and saying "I told you so" and "That is why I'm better than Jeff Hardy" the usual victorious heel promo that casual fans eat up. For the sake of finishing the point I'm trying to get across, suppose for a second Hardy ends up taking the title off Edge at Night of Champions. This would set up a cash-in opportunity at the Great American Bash or even Summerslam for Punk to use MITB. The result being, the ultimate rub that Hardy could give Punk, dropping the belt to him. This also gives WWE an out to write Hardy out of storylines if he does choose to let his contract expire.

Opinions? Ideas? This is just something that I felt would make for an interesting scenario. What do you think?

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Another heel turn thread. Wow. At least I can book. Here we go.


What you can do is have CM Punk lose his cash-in match against Randy Orton. He loses, he's jaded, and he starts to place blame on others and not himself. He talks about being 'straight edge' and how it's gotten him nowhere.

I say what happens is during a match with Morrison or a top face, Punk comes out, does commentary, then starts talking shit about said person in the ring. Punk talks about how he was screwed out of his shot and that he's tired of the fans and the crap he's gone through since he came to the WWE.

The perfect candidate would be Jeff Hardy, so kudos for that. I'd have Hardy face off with Edge for the WHT or in a tag team match as Punk and Jeff are partners. Punk would turn on Jeff and leave him laying in the ring. This could work. Punk could go on a tangent about how he's clean, straight edge and you cheer a man who's had a history of drug and alcohol abuse and a man who's as dedicated to wrestling as a dog fart!

He could say that he's sick of the fans cheering for a guy like that and as far as he's concerned, don't bother cheering for him, because you'll soil my reputation and make me out to be something I'm not. I'm straight-edge, clean, and all you can do is cheer for someone who wears stupid clothes and paints his face in neon colors. The man's an idiot and you cheer for him. That's fine. Just remember, Straight Edge always wins and the Straight and Narrow's the only way to go!

There you go. Heel turn.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Sorry if this is a repeat thread, merge if it is.

Ok, for speculative purposes, let's assume that Jeff Hardy is on his way out of the WWE.

Welp, there you go, thread over. If Jeff Hardy is leaving, then why for the love of fuck would they turn the next biggest face on the active roster heel? Why on earth would you have the guy who deosnt do any drugs or drink into the bad guy, and turn the waster into the god guy? Terrible long term plan for SD!.

Obviously, you do the holier than thou straight edge thing, which actually borders on hatred for a lifestyle, and stereo types, but whatever. You WOULDNT do it, becuase its a horrid idea.

 

[varney]

Let's head back to first ever WWE December to Dismember, Punk wins the belt beating lashley, rvd, sabu, holly, whoever else who was in that shit show

He comes out at the next episode cutting a normal face promo, saying that he's earned this and showed that his new school attitude prevailed, which cues Elijah Burke to come out representing the New Breed. Burke tries to persuade Punk to join the NB, which makes Punk stop and think (looking at the title).

RVD's theme hits in which he comes out with Sandman (holding a cane) RVD tries to persuade Punk to join Old ECW, that he is the only new school guy that would fit in old ECW

Punk gets flattered and talks about all the great things old ECW was, kinda rambling when he suddenly says...RVD 420 huh RVD giggles and raises his arms saying...well yea and smiles some more.

Punk yells RVD, IM BETTER THAN YOU, then whacks the title over his head. Sandman proceeds to swing the stick wildly at Punk for attacking RVD, but instead he hits Burke on accident. Punk then reacts and knocks out Sandman with the title. He grabs the mic yelling over the lifeless bodies of RVD and Sandman proclaiming that he would never fit in old ECW. Drugs, sex, alcohol were all things present in old ECW, that's why it never went anywhere, because of their vices. IM CM Punk and straightedge means IM BETTER THAN YOU. He then looks over Burke's body, in which he spits on it.

I was bored, but Punk is best as a heelish tweener

 

[The_Phoenix]

Obviously, you do the holier than thou straight edge thing, which actually borders on hatred for a lifestyle, and stereo types, but whatever. You WOULDNT do it, becuase its a horrid idea.

First of all, thank you for your opinion. And in my defense, at least the thread caught your eye enough to read it and post. As for the stereotypes, let's assess some of the talent on the WWE roster: Umaga - Savage Samoan wrecking machine. Stereotype? Nah, all Samoans are savages, right? How bout oh, let's say Hornswoggle for the sake of covering multiple points. The only little person that has managed to keep his air time and he's a leprechaun. That's not demeaning to other little people? The point I'm getting across here is that you could pick apart the moral value of what I've said but IMO you're reading too deep into it dude. Remember, casual fans aren't gonna see it in as great of detail as IWC marks.

And in response to you question of why would I turn the next biggest face heel...Simple, it leaves plenty of room for a John Morrison face push. Simple as that. I am a Punk fan but Morrison is a more believable face IMO. And the two of them have had great matches in the past. Would like to see it on a grander stage I suppose.

 

[Uncle Sam]

NorCal's right. Turning Punk heel is a terrible idea. There isn't a worse time to turn Punk heel. Well, you might have just come up with one with suggesting Jeff Hardy leaves.

The Undertaker is out and it's a free-for-all for top face. It'll either be Hardy or Punk, but the loser will still stick near the very top of the card.

So, turning Punk heel would not only be a complete waste of an opportunity, but he'd have to compete with Jericho and Edge - two of the most acclaimed heels of recent years.

It's just a plain bad idea.

 

[Tastycles]

If CM Punk is ever going to reach the heights he is capable of, then he has to turn heel before turning back face again. Seriously, every single huge name in the last 15 years has been a heel at least once. Hardy is the exception, but unless Punk wants to walk like Hardy does, that isn't going to happen here.

The Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Kane, Shawn Michaels, HHH, Angle, Cena, Lesnar, Mankind, Edge, Orton, Jericho, RVD, Eddie Guerrero, Big Show, JBL, Benoit... The list is endless, and all of them had to turn heel, or start out as heel before fully getting over, in fact I'm not sure there has been a WWE Champion since the Ultimate Warrior that hasn't been a heel before being the champion apart from Jeff, correct me if I'm wrong.

That shows to me that to be loved, you have to be hated first. CM Punk has to turn on either Jeff Hardy or The Undertaker for him to be taken seriously. The Undertaker wouldn't really work, so have him turn on Hardy. Need a top face? Jericho switches allegiances more than he changes his underwear, there is no problem there.

Edge should hold the title for an age, with Hardy almost doing it, almost beating him every month until about Great American Bash, with various stipulations along the way to keep it fresh. Then, at the Bash, he finally goes over Edge in a last man standing match or something like that, cue Punk. Punk cashes in and beats him easily, but heartlessly with a submission hold or something.

Then, if Jeff is leaving, have a loser leaves town match at Summerslam and then you have a massively over heel champion. Have him beat Edge, Kane, Morrison, Undertaker etc, before losing to a newly face Jericho at some stage down the line. Keep him heel for a year or so, change him back and you have the new t-shirt selling uberface that Punk has the potential to be.

To reiterate, there are three ways to be an uber face:

1. Be a 1980s wrestler.
2. Do something incredibly drastic, e.g. Goldberg's winning streak, Hardy killing himself weekly
3. Be a heel first.

Punk can only do one of those three things, and that is what must happen.

 

[Uncle Sam]

The Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Kane, Shawn Michaels, HHH, Angle, Cena, Lesnar, Mankind, Edge, Orton, Jericho, RVD, Eddie Guerrero, Big Show, JBL, Benoit...

The ones I've highlighted either had poor, unnecessary heel runs that everyone forgot about, have less relevance to the business than Punk does or were never popular faces.

That shows to me that to be loved, you have to be hated first. CM Punk has to turn on either Jeff Hardy or The Undertaker for him to be taken seriously. The Undertaker wouldn't really work, so have him turn on Hardy. Need a top face? Jericho switches allegiances more than he changes his underwear, there is no problem there.

Problem being, of course, Jericho is an awesome heel and just a decent face. I'd actually go so far as to say that Punk might be a better face than him. He's certainly a worse heel. Wasting Jericho's hard-earned heel heat now would be, well, a waste, especially considering the chemistry he and Edge could have together as heels.

Edge should hold the title for an age, with Hardy almost doing it, almost beating him every month until about Great American Bash, with various stipulations along the way to keep it fresh.

So, the Triple H scenario, but with Edge in the Game's place?

Then, at the Bash, he finally goes over Edge in a last man standing match or something like that, cue Punk. Punk cashes in and beats him easily, but heartlessly with a submission hold or something.

If you're looking for heel heat, just cashing in the case on the top face after his hard-earned title shot is enough. You don't want to go over the top.

Then, if Jeff is leaving, have a loser leaves town match at Summerslam and then you have a massively over heel champion. Have him beat Edge, Kane, Morrison, Undertaker etc,

The Undertaker should never be part of a champion's unbeaten streak, unless he's destined to end it. Having Punk face Kane and Morrison in main events would also have ratings in the garbage.

before losing to a newly face Jericho at some stage down the line. Keep him heel for a year or so, change him back and you have the new t-shirt selling uberface that Punk has the potential to be.

Then have Jericho and The Undertaker feud? But... Punk already beat The Undertaker at this point...

To reiterate, there are three ways to be an uber face:

1. Be a 1980s wrestler.
2. Do something incredibly drastic, e.g. Goldberg's winning streak, Hardy killing himself weekly
3. Be a heel first.

I dunno. I think they're vague historical precedents that you can't really translate into a handy rulebook.

 

[The Palace of Wisdom]

I think there is a possibilty of a face/heel shake-up on Smackdown, and it could all actually be incredibly exciting. Edge, as awesome as he is, as basically become a one-note heel, and I think he's teetering on the brink of turning back face to feud with Jericho over the title, which would be a very good feud.

But, if Edge goes back face, then the World Champion is a face, so you automatically drop everyone else down a spot. Jeff to #2, Punk to #3, Rey to #4, and Morrison to #5 (this all assuming Undertaker is out awhile).

That also leaves the heel ranks barren, with only Jericho, Umaga, and Shelton toward the top. Kane is a lifelong tweener, and they just turned Morrison face, and are devoting a lot of energy to that. So, that leaves three choices. Punk, Jeff, or Rey.

All 3 of them sell a LOT of t-shirts, but only one of them has the mic skills to pull off being a heel, and it's Punk.

I don't think it's a great idea to turn him heel, but it might be one of the pieces that falls into place. Him having the briefcase is virtually a booking free pass, and they can do pretty much ANYTHING with him.

Though I think making him the #1 face of Smackdown is a MUCH smarter business move.

 

[Tastycles]

I've written a thread about this in more general terms in the general section. Check it out and disagree with me more generally there.

The ones I've highlighted either had poor, unnecessary heel runs that everyone forgot about, have less relevance to the business than Punk does or were never popular faces.

You've cunningly not specified which though, forcing me to retort with all of them.

Austin: If he wasn't a heel he wouldn't have been taken seriously as a bad ass. He had more relevance and was popular, so I don't see this one.

Kane: More relevance and debuted as a heel. As for never being a popular face, possibly, but he certainly got a big pop when he won at WrestleMania XXIV.

Cena: Definitely more relevance, definitely a popular face. Do you think he'd have been as over now if it wasn't for the knob end rapper character he played? I don't, that's what set him out from the rest, nobody cared about him before that.

Mankind: More relevance, over as a face. Probably the most memorable thing in Foley's career was his feuds with the Undertaker in 96/97, when he was a heel.

RVD: Over as a face, similar relevance. He debuted as a heel. People will inform you ad nauseam that he was a poor heel, but he was a heel nonetheless. He was also a heel in ECW for a while I think.

Eddie and Benoit: I'll clump these together as they basically shared an identical WWE career. Both debuted as heels and both were over as heels. Benoit for longer probably. They both turned face later on and both had decent reigns. They are in Punk's league, certainly, but they fit the bill.

JBL: Never over as a face, really, granted. But my point was that the most over people either have been or are heels. To be a successful heel, you needn't have ever been face. Take someone like Angle and Lesnar who enjoyed early heel successes without ever being good guys. There's very few comparable faces to have done it, only Rey, Goldberg and Jeff Hardy in the last 15 years.

Problem being, of course, Jericho is an awesome heel and just a decent face. I'd actually go so far as to say that Punk might be a better face than him. He's certainly a worse heel. Wasting Jericho's hard-earned heel heat now would be, well, a waste, especially considering the chemistry he and Edge could have together as heels.

I disagree. Jericho can be a good face, as long as he has a good heel to play off, which is certainly there in Edge, and potentially Punk himself. Jericho's best feud in my opinion was the one against HHH and Stephanie circa 2000 when he was a face. There's no one better than a guy who takes himself too seriously as a foil to Jericho, and a straight edge heel would do that perfectly. Punk is much better as a heel than a face, either that or he is massively restricted in what he can say on WWE, because his promos are shite.

Heel heat is anything but hard earned. Jericho got booed by putting Michaels through a TV. It's far easier to be booed than cheered, and Jericho can get both reactions.

So, the Triple H scenario, but with Edge in the Game's place?

Basically, yes. But have him win dirty every time, unlike The Gamugggh. That way it looks like Hardy is getting screwed rather than Hardy isn't as good.

If you're looking for heel heat, just cashing in the case on the top face after his hard-earned title shot is enough. You don't want to go over the top.

I thought that going over the top was inherent to wrestling. If Hulk Hogan had come out and said "I support the actions of Hall and Nash" it would have been arse. They had to have him do his finisher on savage multiple times for effect.

The Undertaker should never be part of a champion's unbeaten streak, unless he's destined to end it. Having Punk face Kane and Morrison in main events would also have ratings in the garbage.

The ratings are already in the garbage. As much as I prefer the product, there isn't a single draw on Smackdown bar the Undertaker if Hardy leaves. Smackdown main events are going to play second fiddle for quite some time now, so why not try these guys out? The PPV buys will be for Cena vs Orton anyway.What is the alternative on Smackdown? You can't have heel on heel as people don't buy it, so you are destined to months of Edge/Jericho vs. Punk/Hardy anyway, why not at least chance it.

You want to build a guy up, and beating the Undertaker will do that. Kurt Angle did it, why can't Punk? It's a fantastic way to build these Smackdown guys up, otherwise you've got the reserves show.

Then have Jericho and The Undertaker feud? But... Punk already beat The Undertaker at this point...

No, maybe Jericho and Edge? If Punk vs. Undertaker happened once, with a bullshit win for Punk, he could then enter a non title feud with him heading into WrestleMania. There'd be no shame in losing there, but he would have hung with one of the main guys for a while and beat him as the champion.

I dunno. I think they're vague historical precedents that you can't really translate into a handy rulebook.

7 WCW/WWF Champions in 18 years have never been heel by the time they won the championship. That includes guys like David Arquette. 2 of them have actually been fan favourites -Hardy and Goldberg 2 were never really over as champions: Punk and Rey and the other three were Arquette and Sting and Hogan, both of whom are from a different era entirely. Contrast that with the 12 or so to have won having never had a decent face run beforehand, and you see the pattern emerge.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

First of all, thank you for your opinion. And in my defense, at least the thread caught your eye enough to read it and post. As for the stereotypes, let's assess some of the talent on the WWE roster: Umaga - Savage Samoan wrecking machine. Stereotype? Nah, all Samoans are savages, right? How bout oh, let's say Hornswoggle for the sake of covering multiple points. The only little person that has managed to keep his air time and he's a leprechaun. That's not demeaning to other little people? The point I'm getting across here is that you could pick apart the moral value of what I've said but IMO you're reading too deep into it dude. Remember, casual fans aren't gonna see it in as great of detail as IWC marks.

And in response to you question of why would I turn the next biggest face heel...Simple, it leaves plenty of room for a John Morrison face push.

Its still a situation were you are casting hatred onto an individual, or group of individuals base don prefances in life. I dont think Umaga is a gimmick saying "all somoans are savages" its a gimmick that says "all savages are savages"....CM Punk leads a ceartain type of lifestyle, and your having people heap hatred upon him over it, and casting a stereo type on the group of people who make those decisions.

as for Morrison...they have the mid card. they obviously have zero faith in R Truth, over as he may be, and they cant lean on Mysterio forever. I think its highly unlikely they take an experimental face turn straight to the ME scene anyhow.

 

[Razor]

Do I have to book his Heel turn? I don't especially like him, and besides, he should stay Face. A Straight-Edge heel? Yeah, ok. Unless he calls out Jeff Hardy. But I don't like that as much, that doesn't seem cool at all. "Oh, you did drugs, I hate you and I'm gonna beat you with a steel chair now!" meh.

So. Punk cashes in his MITB suitcase. Make it against Hardy. Sure, why not make Hardy the World Heavyweight Champion? However, Punk loses. So, of course, the announcers mention it every time Punk appears on TV. "Oh, here's Punk for our next match up. He made history as the first wrestler to lose his MITB cash-in match." Punk goes on a losing streak, he can't focus. Finally, he cracks.

He calls Hardy out and blames his losing streak on him. Punk demands a rematch for the World Heavyweight Title. Teddy Long steps out, and says Punk has to prove himself in a series of matches that will prove to Teddy Punk can actually win. So, over the next weeks, (I'm unsure as to how long. 2 months seems a little long, but I like the idea of Punk's turn spanning 2 ppvs), Punk starts tearing through competition. He's using heel tactics, of course. This serves to not only make Punk look credible (Holy shit..a credible Punk) but it also allows Punk to steamroll Face Jobbers and treat them horribly, as a heel would.

Punk gets to the World Title match, and....I suppose he wins it. I love Jeff, and I hate Punk, but meh. It would be so anti-climatic for Punk to lose, honestly. Punk wins, and goes on the Heel Title Reign everyone but the people who actually tune in seems to like.

 

[Roflcopter]

Now this is my first thread so please be gentle.
Now im prolly not the first person to think of this, and if theres a thread already on it I do apologize I must have missed it. At the moment, smackdown has been awesum over the last few weeks. I just thought of sumthing that could possibly greater things for smackdown and cm punk. Jeff Hardy has always had this kinda gimmick where he always gets soo close to winning and then sumthin happens which leads to his loss, also he is one of the most if not the most popular superstars in the busness. So what im saying is, what if Jeff hardy after winning the title in a very grueling ladder match against the champ edge, was to be ambushed by cm punk and lose the title due to the MITB within minutes of finally cpaturing it. It would definately turn the fans against cm punk. This would also lead to a jeff and punk feud which would easily work because of the straight edge gimmick and hardys wreckless drug abuse. So yea this is sumthin i wouldnt mind seeing i think it would make an awesum world title feud on smackdown. However smackdown does already have Jericho and edge the two superstars that id rate the best two heels in the busness (currently). So please tell me what u think, and yea be nice this ismy first time =P

 

[matty256]

I think this is a good idea. Punk is a much better heel then he is face. His heel promos in ROH make Ortons promos look like shit and some of them are better then Jerichos. Plus Edge is long over due to become face. And while Hardy and Punk are feuding Edge and Jericho can have the feud everyones wanting to see.

 

[LongLiveOrton]

I think that would be an awesome idea. I agree with how good Punk was as a heel in ROH. He was on another level. Also, the only big time legit heels you have right now are Orton(my personal favorite), Edge, and Jericho. Im not a huge Punk fan, but I respect him a ton and I think hes overdue for atleast a chance to be one of the guys at the top.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Anyone's heel promo's are better than Orton's. Punk's face promo's are better than Orton's. I think a heel turn from Punk would be awesome, but the way the E is going, they wanna push Punk as a role model to the kids. It will be quite a while before a turn happens. Decent thread, but cut out the chat room contractions. Its irritating to see awesum every other word. Still, decent thread.

 

[jason305]

I think the best way too do it is by having Punk and Edge have an Epic match at Extreme Rules and at the end Jericho interferes costing Edge the title. So you now have an Edge face turn and a potentially great fued in Edge vs Jericho. Hardy spends some time celebrating and out comes Punk cashing in the case and screwing Hardy. There you have your Punk heel turn and a few new fresh fueds that could keep Smackdown going for some time. Hardy of course dissapears for a while after ER. You have Edge as a face and John Morrison. If creative does it right we have some great new fresh fueds in the works and alot of potential to establish new top main eventers.

 

[KingofPortonia]

You have to believe it is coming... or is here. And who better for the clean living Chicago Made Punk to turn against than Jeff Hardy with all his past troubles. As if Smackdown wasn't already romping away from Raw. Things just got a lot more interesting!!!

 

[Undar8d]

PERFECT way to end that match. I completely forgot about the MITB. As for your question, CM Punk with a heel turn should be quite interesting to watch. People always talk about how his ROH run was awesome. If WWE Creative pulls this off right, we could very well see a successful heel CM Punk.

 

[JerKash]

Not sure about a heel turn...I think they are putting Punk between Hardy and Edge so they have someone to fall back on as Hardy is unsure of when he will leave.

 

[KingofPortonia]

PERFECT way to end that match. I completely forgot about the MITB. As for your question, CM Punk with a heel turn should be quite interesting to watch. People always talk about how his ROH run was awesome. If WWE Creative pulls this off right, we could very well see a successful heel CM Punk.

My only worry is exactly that, WWE creative. I can't see Punk being able to rip on other wrestlers about their lifestyles as I don't think that WWE will want to portey their wrestlers in that light but I think that will be what it takes to get Punk across as a credible heel. Should be interesting to see how they do it none the less

 

[Slowdude]

Damn, i wanted punk to cash in during the ladder match. Well ER ended the way i thought JD would of. SD should be great this week XD

Also, Raw is now like the C show compared to SD. SD beats Raw in all ways what so ever.

 

[RendarSelin]

Wow what a great end to a PPV. Jeff Hardy marks must be pretty pissed. Well, at least Jeff Hardy is a 2 time World Champion...even if he may now hold the record for the shortest title reign.

If CM Punk is really now a heel, this may be a great change for the straightedge superstar. This gives SmackDown and Punk both a fresh look, and can lead to some exciting storylines, especially between Punk and Hardy who can probably put on some great matches!

 

[KingofPortonia]

Not sure about a heel turn...I think they are putting Punk between Hardy and Edge so they have someone to fall back on as Hardy is unsure of when he will leave.

Fair point but you would think that if that was the plan they would have had Edge win the match and had Punk pin him, the heel. By pinning Hardy, Punk has instant heat

 

[Checkmate]

Well, they left themselves open to both alternatives. It all depends on the next promos cut by Hardy/Edge/Punk.

They could go the road of someone turning face/heel, which I doubt too much, as Edge should be a little busy with Vickie, and Hardy is an uncertain right now. Punk going heel allows him to feud with only Hardy, unless Edge makes a turn, which again, seems unrealistic so quickly.

The other option is to play Punk as an opportunist, but not in a heel way, more like indifferent. He could say that he would have cashed in against whoever won the ladder match, knowing how hard it would be for someone to win it, the pain and punishment, getting rid of Umaga earlier, blah blah blah... I'd think this would be the easier of the two to pull off, and more likely, as he was playing to the crowd a bit too much to be a heel, and didn't really cheap shot anyone. He just took advantage of a situation.

Either way, I'm interested. I marked out for a good few minutes, which is more so than I do normaly. You just don't see too many face/face title matches going on, and I believe this is the first face/face Money in the Bank cash in that was a suprise (not Cena/RVD). Interesting indeed.