Punk Suicide Angle Too Far?

[D-Man]

I find it interesting that posters have brought up owen...when I watched this segment I didn't think that at all.

The reason why they bring it up is because for some odd reason, members of the IWC think they're smart by playing the "Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon" with WWE's storylines. They take a current storyline, find another one from YEARS ago that might've had the slightest touch upon the current subject, and make the connection. Then they say, "LOOK!! They're the same thing!! Bad WWE!! BAD BAD BAD!!! (shaking their finger)"

Reality check, everyone: This type of thinking and posting doesn't make you intelligent or logical. Instead, you sound like a bunch of fucking dipshit morons. Not everything and every storyline in pro-wrestling is tied together by some unforeseen, cosmic bond that only you have been able to enlighten us with and bring to our attention. Most of the time, these theories are just awful. This Owen Hart theory is one of them.

 

[VinnieSunshine]

Its not like WWE HASN'T done and angle where someone fell off the titon tron. Hell I can remember when Legion of Doom did it where a drunk Animal (I believe thats who it was) was on top of it and he "fell" off behind it.

If memory serves, didn't Shane McMahon jump off it or from somewhere just as tall into Big Show?

What about the time Undertaker threw Mick Foley from the top of the HIAC? No one complained THEN but even then and now we looked at that as awesome.

What happened to Owen Hart was tragic (I was watching the PPV so I lived it) and sad...but it happened years ago. His memory lives on but its time to move on.

I agree with The Doctor...lots of people want and edgier WWE, but when WWE pushes to the extreme...people complain. Sometimes I just think the IWC needs to find SOMETHING in TNA or WWE complain about or pick apart.

Get over it people!

 

[biggrumpy]

Has anybody figured out that this was a back handed slap to Jeff Hardy???

I think it was a jab to Jeff Hardy, because he basically said anybody that would jump off the Titan Tron was stupid. Hardy has made his incoherant drug induced youtube commentaries about how he made Punk a main eventer, I think this was a jab at him

 

[shattered dreams]

Some great posts here D-man, especially that last one. However, I find it a little odd you are calling people hypocrites. Not because they are not being hypocritical, they obviously are, but because you are being the flip side hypocritical on the issue. What about those that were saying the Hardy thing was wrong and this isn't? I get that you have a stronger opinion on smoking instead of suicide because of personal experiences but why can't that be the opposite for someone else? Why can't it be a worse issue on a show theoretically aimed at a younger audience than one that isn't?I am not saying I think the hypocritical approach is correct, just that it should be equally applied. If you did it why bash others for doing it?

I personally do not see anything wrong with either. I want it to be more edgy and entertaining and like that it appears WWE is pushing the envelope some more. TV is not a moral compass. The actions of heels are supposed to be in poor taste. How everyone forgot these simple things I do not know. Everyone being coolish and boring stories is part of what ruined wrestling for me. I hope all companies keep freshing things up and making their heels real heels.

 

[Thesage1989]

UGHHHH u guys are some thing else man some are complain now all it was, was very captivating TV i actually though that the trap beating and the Gang beat was weirder than his flipping off the fans with the i am going to jump segment it was good television and good writing and am sure when u read books things like that stick out!

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

First off I want to say that I do not know if the angle is PG or not, but I loved it. The initiations were all evidence of how much Punk has actually brainwashed The Nexus. All those initiations seemed like the rituals that one would have to perform to be a part of a secret society. It just made Nexus look like a strange yet powerful force whom not everybody can be a part of. Frankly, to me The Nexus looked stronger than it has ever had.

At the same time, I would say that if someone can make an issue of Jeff Hardy smoking while coming down to the ring, it would be blatant hypocrisy not to make an issue of this. I don't care if Punk faking a suicide reminded people of Owen Hart or not, its still suicide. It might get ideas into the head of a young child, ideas that you would rather not let him form. Even if you take Punk's suicide aside you have these initiations that the members of the Nexus were subjected to. What were those initiations all about? Inflicting harm upon yourself for the greater good? Is that an idea that you would cater to a child?

I think the majority of us would agree that it was a good angle that heightened the intrigue of the Punk/Cena feud. So in short the only thing that concerns a pro wrestling company is making money and they can only make money by putting together a good feud. To put together a good feud they might need to show some things that may not be morally correct. But that is not something that we should cry about and its certainly not something that bothers a pro wrestling company.

Overall I would say that this whole initiation angle can put a lot of wrong ideas into an adolescent. But it is upto the parent of the adolescent to tell him what is right and what is wrong. Its not the responsibility of a wrestling company to teach you morals, its only responsibility is to entertain you and I was entertained by this angle.

 

[D-Man]

Some great posts here D-man, especially that last one. However, I find it a little odd you are calling people hypocrites. Not because they are not being hypocritical, they obviously are, but because you are being the flip side hypocritical on the issue. What about those that were saying the Hardy thing was wrong and this isn't? I get that you have a stronger opinion on smoking instead of suicide because of personal experiences but why can't that be the opposite for someone else? Why can't it be a worse issue on a show theoretically aimed at a younger audience than one that isn't?I am not saying I think the hypocritical approach is correct, just that it should be equally applied. If you did it why bash others for doing it?

A good point brought up here. I'll explain...

First of all, the suicide angle did not end with Punk jumping off the Titantron. He alluded to the fact that he was considering jumping off but he didn't actually do it, did he? However, Jeff Hardy actually lit that cigarette and smoked it at the PPV.

Secondly, a lot of my argument in that thread was for the purpose of promoting discussion as a result of said execution of the storyline. If Jeff walked out to the ring with an unlit cigarette in his mouth, I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on in my argument. But Jeff lit it and smoked it so I felt the need to stir the pot with a good discussion. Now, being that I am a quit smoker and am feeling the long-term effects of the substance, I had strong opinions about it.

However, Punk didn't jump. He didn't even attempt to jump. Hell, he even made fun of us for even thinking, for one second, that he might have considered jumping.

It's apples and oranges, really. But I see where you're coming from.

 

[The People's Peep]

I dont think I'm the only one, but I never once thought that it was a suicide angle. So did it go to far? No.

It was a great segment. It got your attention, it kept you listening, and it kept you waiting to see what would happen next. Of course, no one thought he was going to jump. But it was still a very interesting segment and it did a lot to develop the new Nexus. Some people might see it as a rather radical thing to put on TV. But only over-analytical wrestling fans looking for a way to criticize the WWE and the PG rating would see it as Punk talking about suicide.

 

[klunderbunker]

Another thing that occurs to me after reading some more posts: who was actually stupid enough to think he was going to jump? I mean really, who thought that was actually going to happen? If so, why would you think that? Punk is an evil character and has played mind games before. What would it serve him to jump off a Titantron and injure himself like that? He was messing with the fans' minds and it appears to have worked. I don't get why so many people are taking this so seriously, I truly don't.

 

[DForce]

Kill the negativity please. Professional wrestlers are stuntmen, acrobats, and performers. For god's sakes, Spiderman feel off a broadway stage, breaking his bones and ending his career; should there be no more stage actors dangling from rafters? Tragic was Owen's death, but damn, life goes on.

Unfortunately cops get shot, firemen get caught in burning buildings, and cats get stuck in trees. Should cops stop protecting us, or firemen stop putting out fires, or cats stop climbing trees? Like I pay tax dollars for public services, I pay liesure income to see wrestlers perform, which means not pulling off the same move sets or simply cutting promos all the time. Though death defying at times, it's the life they chose, and we fuel their choices by tuning in, playing the video games, posting in forums, and buying the merchandise, so hush already.

 

[@smarkmouth]

Well, I wasn't appalled, but I wasn't glued to the screen either. I appreciate what the segment tried to do, but I wasn't sold. What I'd have preferred if Punk's initiation payoff tie in a little closer to his feud with John Cena.

What else do you think he could've done for an initiation instead of this?

First off, get rid of Cole as the middleman in this segment. John Cena comes out in front of the live crowd(he was in the arena, even wrestled a match after Raw). Before he can go into detail on his injury, the remaining members of Nexus head to the ring, each with a chair. They do their ritual of surrounding the ring. However, instead of attacking Cena, they set up a bed of chairs.

Punk then begs Cena to give him the Attitude Adjustment through the chairs, just like he did to Barrett. "Or better yet, let's go to the parking lot and you can drop me off of a car like you did to Batista!" CM Punk states his initiation will be done by John Cena, and this can all lead back to Punk's argument of Cena's brutality. "C'mon John, prove me right!" and such.

Anyways, that's how I'd set it up. It can only end a finite amount of ways. You can come up with your own punchline.

 

[FatGuyIan]

Even Sting knocked off the coming out of the rafters because of this. A death, especially one so tragic and public, should not be forgotten so as to, at the very least, avoid history repeating itself.

Also, there have been plenty of other things that have been banned because of respect to other wrestlers. They outlawed Piledrivers because somebody got a broken neck. He didn't even die, but they banned them. And I don't see them used again.

You have people not even using other people's finishers because it reflects the other guy. Hell, they quit using chops so much because they didn't want Flair references, yet it's ok to remind people of Owen falling from the catwalk 80 ft. in the air onto his skull? As real as it gets, pal.

No one is suggesting that we forget Owen. In fact, I think it is an abomination that we can't have an Owen retrospective DVD, Owen in the HOF or any references to one of the greats due to the lawsuits between Martha and WWE.

That being said, this comparison to Punk on the Tron and Owen is a poor one. Owen was being lowered to the ring from the rafters for a ridiculous stunt and the people in charge pulled back on several safety features that ended up causing him to die. Punk was harnessed in on the tron, had 2 spotters and it was staged for him to stand up there. He was safer up there than he was in his MITB matches for christsake! Taking a bump off a 20 ft ladder is far more dangerous than being in a harness on top of a tron.

I miss Owen too. I stopped watching for a long time when I found out the issues that caused him to fall. I grew up in Calgary and the Hart family were among the biggest heros a kid like me could have.

I'm not saying we need to forget the past, but the past doesn't have to control everything we do in the present and in the future. You learn from life's lessons. That's why Punk was in a secure harness with 2 spotters.

Pushing the envelope on a show that has lost a lot of it's lustre and edge is a good thing, not a bad thing. The fact that so many people in the IWC are angry at this, only shows what a good angle it is. You marked out. It's not real. It's Sports Entertainment.

 

[Gary87]

It sounds like people seem to forget that Owen's death was 11 years ago, and that nobody has ever worn a harness in that time. What happened to Owen was tragic, and completely accidental. I don't blame WWE for not doing many stunts from high places, but there has to be a time when people learn to let go and just accept that accidents happen. Besides, as others have alluded to, Punk was wearing a normal rigging harness (which doesn't have a "Quick Release," as Owen's did) and was being spotted by two men. There is no easy way out of that harness, and the chances of it failing are so slim it isn't even funny. He was perfectly safe, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Another thing that occurs to me after reading some more posts: who was actually stupid enough to think he was going to jump? I mean really, who thought that was actually going to happen? If so, why would you think that? Punk is an evil character and has played mind games before. What would it serve him to jump off a Titantron and injure himself like that? He was messing with the fans' minds and it appears to have worked. I don't get why so many people are taking this so seriously, I truly don't.

You and I know that Punk would have never jumped. But again it puts ideas into a kid's head. What is the basis of the whole initiation angle? Inflicting harm upon yourself for the greater good of yourself. Punk is evil and that is why he did not go forward with the initiation. But that might also imply that a good guy might actually go along with the initiation. After all pro wrestling does teach us that a face does the exact opposite of a heel.

I know it sounds a bit dumb but a lot of adolescents might feel that way. As Thrown pointed out there was a better way of going forward with the angle.

Now I did enjoy the angle but if you are talking about moral implications then this might have more severe implications than Hardy lighting a cigarette. Smoking vs implied suicide. You decide.

Secondly, a lot of my argument in that thread was for the purpose of promoting discussion as a result of said execution of the storyline. If Jeff walked out to the ring with an unlit cigarette in his mouth, I wouldn't have had a leg to stand on in my argument. But Jeff lit it and smoked it so I felt the need to stir the pot with a good discussion. Now, being that I am a quit smoker and am feeling the long-term effects of the substance, I had strong opinions about it.

Oh boy I would really love to know what an unlit cigarette might imply. Apart from the fact that Hardy or any other wrestler would look stupid carrying an unlit cigarette in his mouth while coming down to the ring.

 

[FatGuyIan]

You and I know that Punk would have never jumped. But again it puts ideas into a kid's head. What is the basis of the whole initiation angle? Inflicting harm upon yourself for the greater good of yourself. Punk is evil and that is why he did not go forward with the initiation. But that might also imply that a good guy might actually go along with the initiation. After all pro wrestling does teach us that a face does the exact opposite of a heel.

It isn't WWE's responsibility to control what ideas get put into a kids head, it's the parents. I have 2 young sons. Neither is old enough to watch wrestling with me, but when they're older they will. And I will explain to them that it's not real, it's fake. Parents need to take ownership over their responsibilities as a parent and not rely on TV, least of all Monday Night Raw to raise their children for them. If you're looking for a morality play, you're watching the wrong thing. I think you'd be better off with something on the Hallmark Channel.

 

[Nicole13Edge/HardyFan]

I never once thought he would jump but throuhout the whole segment I was kinda scared. I mean not because I was thinking wwe would fake it somehow and make him jump, but because I was thinking what if they actually messed up and C.M. Punk slipped and really did fall all that way to the ground. This segment really made me think of the Owen Hart incident, I mean I don't know a lot about that incident since I was three when it happened but I know about it. So it was kinda similar and knowing he had a harness made me less scared that something might go wrong but I was glad when the segment was over.

 

[klunderbunker]

You and I know that Punk would have never jumped. But again it puts ideas into a kid's head. What is the basis of the whole initiation angle? Inflicting harm upon yourself for the greater good of yourself. Punk is evil and that is why he did not go forward with the initiation. But that might also imply that a good guy might actually go along with the initiation. After all pro wrestling does teach us that a face does the exact opposite of a heel.

I know it sounds a bit dumb but a lot of adolescents might feel that way. As Thrown pointed out there was a better way of going forward with the angle.

Now I did enjoy the angle but if you are talking about moral implications then this might have more severe implications than Hardy lighting a cigarette. Smoking vs implied suicide. You decide.

PG: Parental Guidance Suggested. Wrestling is a violent show with cursing, scantily clad women, beatings and lots of other things. Right when the show starts they tell you it's PG and that parents might want to watch with their kids. It's a cliche but it's true. This show is geared towards kids, but even the ratings says that a parent might want to keep an eye on what's on it in case their kid gets the worng idea. This is a prime example of that. If a kid sees this, sure they might get a bit upset by it. That's where the PG part comes in. A parent says "No he wasn't going to kill himself. He was pretending to try to scare you because he's a bad guy." That would solve most of the issues with this, but that can't happen because parents can't take a night a week to spend with their kids I guess.

 

[AndarielHalo]

Shane McMahon jumped off the TitanTron before. And the guy he jumped on fell off before him. This isn't new.


What I DID see as rather shocking, given the PG nature, and comparable to Hardy's smoking thing, was the whole gang-style beat-in of the Nexus guys.

 

[JDX]

What did you think of Punk talking suicide?
I never thought it was about suicide in the first place just hurting himself real bad to prove to everyone he's worthy to lead the Nexus. For a second I thought he would jump a la Jeff hardy until I saw that there wasn't an obstruction in the way of the crowd with a shit load of mats behind for him to land on. Either him jump or Cena come up behind and push him off. Our hero. And on a side note the biggest heel on Raw was the fucking crowd. I heard several people say jump and kill yourself. Good God maybe he should have jumped then have Cena come out and done the U can't see me taunt for a big laughs and cheers. Demented douchebags.

What else do you think he could've done for an initiation instead of this?
I thought it would been have great if Punk goaded Cena into coming down and beating him up without Nexus coming to his aid or fighting back at all. Just take it and prove he's right about Cena and the fans.

 

[itsme123]

First of all I thought the whole new nexus angle was great,IMO it was what made Raw worth watching. I enjoyed the show but what stood out to me was when Punk told Slather and Gabriel to beat the crap out of eachother with the kendo sticks. Yes they refused but Punk noticed that they were contemplating on hitting him I thought he was going to act like a coward. But he opened his arms closed his eyes and said "hit me." I loved it made him look strong. Sorry I'm off topic.

Now to ur question. No CM Punk didn't take the "suicide angle" too far he was perfectly safe. Plus he said that it was stupid to even think of trying to do something like that. Its not like he follwed by saying u should all kill urselves by jumping of a cliff. The beatdowns were intresting not anything that crossed the line and I think that Josh Mattews and The King did a good job by telling fans to never put themselves in that kind of situation. Please don't expect for the WWE to teach ur kids what's right and wrong if u do please give them up for adoption or just don't let them watch. Remember there's other things like chair shots, hardcore matches etc... lol just enjoy the damn show!!

 

[S.J. Maximus]

I personally thought that the whole concept of suicide especially via a big drop like the one Punk was teasing was COMPLETELY inappropriate for a PG show. As I was watching with my girlfriend I told her that if I was a father I wouldn't want my kids to see because then they would think it would be call to climb high up and fake a fall because they think he's cool. I don't like it but hey, my opinion doesn't really matter does it

 

[PedigreeTHE619Chokeslam]

I dont think it went to far. There was no way that he was going to jump and if you did believe that, well i wont say it but Punk told us last night. Punk was just doing what he does best, Talk. Hes has such good mic skills he got us to think he would do it.

I dont really think there wold have been anything else he could have done that would have gotton him as much heat as this did.

 

[The Suplexer Perfecter]

I couldn't keep from thinking, even with all the harness talk, about Owen. And I think a lot of people probably thought the same way. Maybe I also read too much into it, but when he was saying things like (and I don't remember exactly so I'm not quoting) you would have to be stupid to jump from that height, etc. I couldn't help but think that it was in very poor taste and kind of disrespectful to Owen's memory. Some things should be just left alone, and that was one of them. Hell, for all we know, and knowing Vince, it could have been a slap in the face towards Martha Hart for the more recent legal aggrivation. Regardless, when you have a history of things such as Owen, the Hawk drunken falling thing, etc., it's time to leave well enough alone. Like somebody said Punk could have done any number of things to get that heat. It wasn't him on the 'Tron that did it, it was him insulting the crowd that got them riled and you could do that just as easily w/a different scenario.
.

A harness is a legit thing to prevent someone from falling from that height. What else were they going to use to make sure he didn't fall? They weren't making a reference to Owen in anyway. And as I recall the fans were chanting JUMP JUMP JUMP.

Does anyone remember Shane jumping off the titantron?? he actually did it. Granted he wasn't talking about suicide, but he obviously could have died. That didn't bring back memories of Owen falling? Nope, because it was a "great moment".

And I find this moment hypocritical. People have said they hated PG, and when they give you something that isn't PG, people complain.

 

[Razor]

Honestly.

I suffer from Bi-Polar Disorder. I take medicine for it. I have rapid mood swings. I'll be happy for a month, depressed for two, and manic for two weeks. The medicine takes the edge off and reduces the frequency, but it's still there. I'll have to live with it for the rest of my life.

That depression right there? It's not "I'm sad for failing a test so I'm not talking to my friends for two days" depression. It's "Holy shit, he hasn't bathed or done his homework in two months" depression. And with any depression that severe, suicide is a very very big reality. You think about it frequently, especially when you haven't slept in 4 days.

I've gone through that, and I will always go through that for the rest of my days on this earth. I'm especially sensitive to jokes about mental disorders and suicide. It's not funny. Hell. I'm sensitive about people talking down about people who commit suicide.

With all of that said, Punk's performance didn't even register with me as offensive.

1) It's wrestling for Christ's sake. It's just like any show on TV. The bad guy is going to fake outrageous scenarios to trick us, then laugh at us for believing him. How is anything Punk did last night any different than the following scenario:

Joker: Batman! I will kill ten civilians if you don't show up tomorrow without your utility belt on.

Batman shows up as asked.

Joker: Lulz, can't believe you fell for that!

PROTIP: Batman is aimed at children. As in G-rated content. You should have seen Batman: The Animated Series. The Mad Hatter started his crime spree by inventing mind control cards. Why? So that he could brainwash a co-worker into marrying him. A Batman villain based on Alice in Wonderland made cards to rape a co-worker. This was a plot line on a G-rated show that I watched as a 7 year-old in 1997.


2) As KB and Doc have said already, PG means a lot of things. Using something as tense as suicide is one of them.


......
Hey. Guess what.
....
....
....
Punk is a bastard.

He spent the entire night doing what? He beat Husky with a leather belt. He got Otunga to willingly walk up to the Big Show and get his ass beat. He scared the other guys right out of Nexus. At least, I hope I remember that right. If I don't, then I'm losing my memory along with my hair.

So what else would Punk do but reinforce his dominance by not going through with the same ritual of hazing that the other members had to go through? To prove he's better than them. That he's a true member of Nexus already, that he doesn't have to prove himself.

He set Nexus up to believe that he would go through the biggest initiation he could possibly do. Then he pulled it away from them and laughed in their faces. And they accepted it. This is basic Fraternity hazing 101. L2college

Punk just solidified himself as a massive heel, as the leader of a new and improved Nexus (thereby separating themselves from any weaknesses the old Barret-era Nexus may have had), and as a sufficient challenge to Cena. He's the immoral, offensive villain to Cena's righteous crusader.

This is an act guys. Calm down.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I have to agree with Doc, KB, and Razor on this one.

Punk didn't do anything that we haven't seen before on a wrestling program. Hell, 'Taker has hung people in the ring and hung people off of his cross/symbol. Was that to far? I was kid watching then and I never thought about doing it.

We might be in the PG era, but like mentioned before hand, PG stands for Parental Guidance. This is and will always be professional wrestling. As such, you should always expect to see an outrageuos scenario at some point in the program.