Politcal-Correctness At It's Finest

[Ambiguous Turd]

Don't ignore my points, I won't ignore yours.

I answered your question, but if I have to spell it out for you-

No, I didn't cast a vote personally. Going back to the answer you ignored, for whatever reason, you can't pretend to know what goes on in other people's heads. Your question is hardly scientific.

I wasn't ignoring your points. I wanted to keep the conversation focused before you took it off-point. However, since you answered my question ... and I appreciate your honesty in that you admit that you did not "vote" or choose you Orientation ... I will address your point.

Are you telling me then that every single Gay person out there ... which represents approximately 10% of the population ... that every single one of those Millions of people had a perverted Uncle, or perverted Football coach, etc. and were influenced by these people to become Gay? How many of them do you think were simply "born Gay", just like you were "born Straight"? Any of them at all, do you think? Not one?

Also, has it been scientifically proven that "Nurture is what causes Orientation" such as what you alluded to? Has it been scientifically proven that there is a traumatic event in a person's life that causes them to switch Orientations, or is that just a theory? To my knowledge, we haven't determined what causes Orientation, however there sure is a Hell of a lot of discrepancy over it. Being that it is so controversial, I would think it may be best to reserve judgment for these people until the actual stimulus can be determined ... don't you agree?

We have heterosexual people theorizing ... and we have Gay people telling you "I did not choose my Orientation".

Also, have you done any research into the studies of twins who happen to be Gay? That might raise a few eyebrows if you wish to dispute the theory that genetics play any part in determining orientation. Those studies certainly point to genetics being a very probable factor in making the determination.

Now, my next question would be if science can determine the exact cause of Sexual Orientation ... would you embrace it, or would you dismiss the evidence based on what the Bible (Old Testament) says about Orientation?

Also, just a side question ... out of curiosity what are your thoughts about Lesbians compared to Gay Men? I noticed that a lot of people who have problem with Gay people are more so focused on Gay Men as opposed to two Women. Society in general seems to have major issues with Gay Men, but not with Gay Women, and that really peeks my curiosity. Since it is the fantasy of Guys to see two girls making out, it is A okay, right? I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that matter.

 

[TwistofRKO]

I don't know you personally, so I won't comment on you personally, but you have nothing supporting your claim other than your word. That's fine, I'm not calling you a liar, don't misinterpret what I'm trying to say, but there's no supporting evidence. There aren't any similar traits in homosexuals that show support to the theory it's basically random at birth.

You are trying to say that naturally people are un-attracted to the only form of reproduction? This is the same situation with eating disorders, it hasn't been proven that the actual disorder stems from biological traits, with many people believing that outside factors have a heavy influence.

I have a hard time believing, personally, that naturally you have no inclination or anxiousness to eat or reproduce. Survival is severely dependent on both of those. Believing the world has an intelligent Designer, I couldn't see that, but even from an evolutionary stand-point I couldn't see how natural selection would allow these traits to continue.

And for Heaven's sake, don't let any animal questions come up. They are animals. I've seen my dog hump a stuffed animal, I've had a shih tzu hump my leg. They are animals, they have no capability to make critical decesions.

 

[wolvdog316]

I knew you had to be either gay or bi Fear, but that's not a bad thing. You showed emotion in what you believed it. That can be respect. I still don't like your sissy views, but hey, your opinion.

Matt, I can't believe after all we been through *sniff sniff*, that I am actually going to say this. I agree 100% with you. Some people are born gay, some are gay because they think it's cool, some are gay cause they got molested, some are gay cause grandma really wanted that girl instead of the boy. I mean a 5 year old that says boys are cute, they play tea parties and dream of meeting the man of their dreams....Well, they aren't old enough yet to understand sexually, much less manipulate it.

I also get pissed off at the "They chose to be gay". That's bullshit and so damn unintelligent. Kids, especially boys, who gets beat up day in day out. He gets rocked every day of his life. ALL he has to do is act like a normal boy who wants pussy. But he can't cause he doesn't know how. So he takes his whipping, and sometimes he takes death. That's not a choice. It's a sad world we live in when a certain sexual preference is targeted for abuse and or death. And before you say it, NO Vince saying "Thats gay" is NOT fucking abuse Couldn't post this without pissing at least one person off

 

[Goo Punch]

I don't know you personally, so I won't comment on you personally, but you have nothing supporting your claim other than your word. That's fine, I'm not calling you a liar, don't misinterpret what I'm trying to say, but there's no supporting evidence.

How is 99% of homosexuals (the other 1% being crazy bible thumpers) saying they did not choose their sexuality, not "supporting evidence"? It seems like you keep skirting that question.

And there's a difference between two drunk straight girls making out for attention at a frat party and somebody actually being homosexual/bisexual. Nobody in their right mind would choose to be gay, that's absurd. All it does is make life harder for a person. I really can't fathom anyone actually believing it's not biological. But then again, I can't really fathom anyone believing the Bible is nonfiction...

...everybody here knows wrestling is predetermined, right? I thought we all learned these things when we were 8...

 

[NSL]

One day we'll be laughing at this, the same way we laugh at people that still believe in evolution. Of course it isn't a fucking choice. It's the way you are, and that can't be changed.

As a straight man, I'm comfortable enough to admit when another man is attractive. I've also kissed/made-out with another man, and while it was fun considering the environment, it's not something I'd go out and do every day. If I wanted to be gay (re: chose to be gay), I could. Instead of saying "hey, he's a fairly handsome man", I can go and talk to him, flirt with him, and try to get in his pants, just like I would if he was a brunette with her tits falling out. But, I don't. Why?

BECAUSE I DESIRE PUSSY, NOT BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO WANT PUSSY. Just like being straight is a matter of biology, so is being gay.

 

[FromTheSouth]

So, what you're saying is that because you say so, and for no other reason, that it is biological. Read a few posts back. Dr. LaVay discovered the difference in the hypothalamus that everyone points to as evidence of the biological difference. He says that there are too many other factors to determine if that is the cause. The smaller hypothalamus also occurs in straight men.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

 

[NSL]

So, what you're saying is that because you say so, and for no other reason, that it is biological. Read a few posts back. Dr. LaVay discovered the difference in the hypothalamus that everyone points to as evidence of the biological difference. He says that there are too many other factors to determine if that is the cause. The smaller hypothalamus also occurs in straight men.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

I'm not saying "Because I say so". I'm saying it should be common sense. People are the way they are naturally. Ask any homosexual, bisexual, or straight person with their own thoughts.

If someone who were gay had a choice, in today's world, would they really choose to be gay? There are countries in the world that will put you to death for being gay. There's other countries that will throw you in jail, and here, in our own backyard, you're allowed to be gay, but expect to be oppressed, and denied the right to marry the one you love, for the sake of marriage's supposed "sanctity". Even where it is legal, you'd still be outcast, abused, assaulted, and the subject of an endless line of jokes and lies.

If you had the choice, would you rather be straight, where you're viewed as "normal", or gay, and hate your life because some redneck on a power trip says it's illegal for you to marry the one you love?

 

[FromTheSouth]

Yeah, but you're basing your entire argument on assumptions. Why would someone want to be gay? I don't know. Why did you choose to make out with a guy? You said you chose to. Maybe some people keep choosing to.

Maybe some people are influenced, encouraged, or steered in that direction. The idea that it's genetic is not some foolproof solution. Even the doctors that have discovered the physical differences say that they are not convinced.

Can you isolate the gay gene? If you can, you are a far better scientist that those who get grants, because they mapped the entire human genome, and no one found a gay gene.

 

[NSL]

Can you isolate the gay gene? If you can, you are a far better scientist that those who get grants, because they mapped the entire human genome, and no one found a gay gene.

There is no such thing as a "gay gene" and you know it. There isn't a gene that makes you like women, is there? Do you like women because you "know" that's what you want, or do you choose to like women? Saying that there's a gene that makes you gay, is like saying there's a gene that makes you like pizza. You don't like it because everyone else does, you like it because you do.

As for the scientists, they're all a little clueless. These are the same people that can't find a cure for the world's most dangerous diseases, but they can sit in a lab and try to find out what "makes" people prefer a certain sex.

 

[FromTheSouth]

So, how can it be genetic is there is no gene? We return to the hypothalamus. AND THE GUY WHO DISCOVERED THE CORRELATION between the size of the hypothalamus and sexual preference says he isn't convinced. Professors at Princeton do not agree with the genetics argument.

It's not like I am the only one who make this argument. It doesn't have to be a choice. People always claim to be products of their environment. Why can't there be environmental factors. I never once claimed that sexual preference was a choice. My argument is that it might not be genetic, and I have sources and documentation that say I might be right.

People just say it's genetic based on some weak correlations and rhetoric. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[NSL]

So, how can it be genetic is there is no gene? We return to the hypothalamus. AND THE GUY WHO DISCOVERED THE CORRELATION between the size of the hypothalamus and sexual preference says he isn't convinced. Professors at Princeton do not agree with the genetics argument.

"Genetic" isn't the word i'm using. I'm saying it's biology. It's the way you are. It's the same way you like everything else, by nature. You're straight because that's what you prefer, and you don't need to try both out before making a "choice". You just know what you like.

It's not like I am the only one who make this argument. It doesn't have to be a choice. People always claim to be products of their environment. Why can't there be environmental factors. I never once claimed that sexual preference was a choice. My argument is that it might not be genetic, and I have sources and documentation that say I might be right.

There are environmental factors, and I addressed them already. In today's world, no matter where you live, you're an outcast if you're gay. Wouldn't it just be easier to "choose" to be straight?

People just say it's genetic based on some weak correlations and rhetoric. Correlation does not equal causation.

And, people who say that it's a choice are saying so because that's what they've been told to think. Your parents tell you you're supposed to like a certain person, or be a certain way, and it doesn't make a difference, because you know what you like, and that's the way you are.

 

[jmt225]

So FTS and VintageRKO, you guys choose to be straight? It's a choice that pussy is what makes your dick hard and turns you on? You choose that, or does it just happen? If you simply choose it, then you also have to believe that tomorrow you could wake up and say fuck pussy, I want to be gay from this point on. Seriously, with your logic in this thread, you're saying you have the ability within you to MAKE yourself attracted to men; that you can automatically make a man turn you on. That's what you two are basically claiming, and it makes zero sense.

 

[Gelgarin]

Can I have both sides?

The choice argument is utterly ridiculous, and I can't honestly believe that anybody seriously thinks that that's the case. Everything here's already been said and I can't be bothered to say it again, so I'll just advise anybody who thinks that people wake up one morning and suddenly decide that what they really want to do is screw somebody of the same gender that they should read back a few pages.
Straight people seldom choose to be straight. Gay people don't choose to be gay. If I had to label myself anything it'd be aromantic... or 'not giving a shit', and I don't remember signing up for that either.

That being said, just because you don't choose something doesn't inherently make it a genetic distinction. I'm a firm subscriber to the belief that the vast majority of who we are is shaped by our lives instead of by our births. I have a friend who's mortally afraid of spiders. I have another friend who doesn't like parsnips. I know a couple of guys who get really pumped up by watching professional wrestling, and I live with a couple of girls who have absolutely no desire to copulate with me.

I certainly think that some people are probably born with a more inherent disposition towards one kind of sexuality, much like some people are apparently born with a predisposition towards alchoholism*1, but I don't think that you're born gay in the same way as you're born with blue eyes. As I understand it genetics tend to be hereditary, and there's simply no evidence of a correlation in that regard.

I realise I'm running very close to invoking Freud right now, and I've always been of the opinion that anybody who uses Freud to back up an argument is opening admitting to wanting to back their mother; but nevertheless I'm going there.
I strongly suspect that sexuality, much like many other personality traits, is more readily tied to the subtle effects of early childhood influences. Before somebody asks, I have no idea what these influences are... psychology as a science is nowhere near that advanced, but from my perspective the theory certainly makes more sense than the idea that millions of people are born with some kind of genetic mutation (that often doesn't manifest its self until later life) that inverts their sexual desires.

What we are essentially having here, under the guise of a fight about tolerance and acceptance, is the old nature over nurture debate. As shown above, I take nurture, but since it's essentially the chicken and the egg all over again, it seems like a waste of time.

What I'd hope we can agree on however is that none of this counts for shit. Whether people are born gay, become gay due to eternal stimuli or even if they happen to deliberately turn gay simply to piss off the Christian right... it really shouldn't matter. What somebody else feels has nothing to do with you, and anybody who uses it as an excuse for bigotry or persecution probably deserves a good bullet through the kneecaps.

Any of that make any sense... I wasn't really paying attention.

*1 - I figured I'd better add a footnote here. I am in no way comparing homosexuality to alcoholism, it simply happens to be the only example of something that some people are apparently born with a predisposition towards that I could think of.

 

[robbo316]

So, explain to me then FTS, how animals such as turtles are homosexual. They feel something is missing from their turtle life? What about dwarf chimpanzees, of which all are born bisexual? When did they choose to become bisexual?

I'm sorry, but to me something that you have absolutely zero control over at all is a biological thing, not a choice, or a lifestyle, or a product of your environment.

Honestly FTS I found that last bit to be kind of offensive. You're basically equating the background of homosexuality with, say, drug addiction. That they feel something is missing in their life and have to fill that hole in their soul with something.

I agree with you on that, but, you forgot the penguin, that just left the male penguin that he'd been living with, and is now living with a female penguin whos own mate died. And, I am not making this up, I think it is Baltimore zoo. It's just really weird how it started gay, and is now straight. Something of a reversal, no??

 

[robbo316]

Then stop being offended. If you are offended, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to get over it.

I would think that animals being homosexual is part of that urge that girls say that we have to "stick out dicks in hole we can find." Animals aren't homosexual, because that would imply some sort of monogamy. Animals are primal, and one primal urge is to stick it in something.

Being able to control primal urges is what makes us different that animals. I know you're smart enough to know that.

Should we move this to the lounge?

Never heard of swans then? They mate and then stay with that mate for the rest of their lives, as do, penguins(see previous post), and many other animals.

 

[robbo316]

I'm not saying "Because I say so". I'm saying it should be common sense. People are the way they are naturally. Ask any homosexual, bisexual, or straight person with their own thoughts.

If someone who were gay had a choice, in today's world, would they really choose to be gay? There are countries in the world that will put you to death for being gay. There's other countries that will throw you in jail, and here, in our own backyard, you're allowed to be gay, but expect to be oppressed, and denied the right to marry the one you love, for the sake of marriage's supposed "sanctity". Even where it is legal, you'd still be outcast, abused, assaulted, and the subject of an endless line of jokes and lies.

If you had the choice, would you rather be straight, where you're viewed as "normal", or gay, and hate your life because some redneck on a power trip says it's illegal for you to marry the one you love?

You're making a really good point there; In the UK, it was illegal to be gay until the law was passed in 1967, however another point of law, is that anal sex between two men is legal, between a man and woman it is illegal. but, getting back to the point, in the 1940's, 50's, 60's there were many gay men in cinema and film, who would be blacklisted and shunned, and in many cases thrown into prison. As an example we have Rock Hudson, who was a major fantasy figure for many women in the 1950's, who died of AIDS after many years going out and having unprotected sex. What did the big studios do when they found out he was gay? Immediately got him to get married to a broad to look "normal", and keep up the macho image. We then have others, Montgomery Clift, Kenneth Williams, Charles Hawtrey, James Robertson Justice, Dirk Bogarde. I don't think they would have "chosen" to be gay when it was illegal and force them to lose there careers, and liberty. Sorry for rambling a bit.

 

[FromTheSouth]

So FTS and VintageRKO, you guys choose to be straight? It's a choice that pussy is what makes your dick hard and turns you on? You choose that, or does it just happen? If you simply choose it, then you also have to believe that tomorrow you could wake up and say fuck pussy, I want to be gay from this point on. Seriously, with your logic in this thread, you're saying you have the ability within you to MAKE yourself attracted to men; that you can automatically make a man turn you on. That's what you two are basically claiming, and it makes zero sense.

OK, seriously, you don't read the posts do you? Where did I say it was a choice? I didn't. All I said is that scientists haven't proven that there's a genetic component to sexual preference. Are you fucking serious? I swear, I am getting sick of you and NSL not reading anything except one line of a post and getting in a tizzy.

And, beyond that, if you want to say it's genetic, give me something mroe than anecdotal evidence. This weak little, "you don't choose to like pussy" argument is getting old. I give you evidence, from scientists, and you give me, "that's not right, because it's not right." That's a circular argument. Get serious. Find some proof.

I said environmental factors, opportunity, encouragement, all kinds of factors beyond genetics can play a role. There is one small correlation between the size of a region of the brain and sexual preference, but the guy who discovered the correlation doesn't even believe that it's true.

They mapped the entire human genome. Find the gay gene, or find a real argument.

 

[TwistofRKO]

Nobody in their right mind would choose to be gay, that's absurd. All it does is make life harder for a person. I really can't fathom anyone actually believing it's not biological. But then again, I can't really fathom anyone believing the Bible is nonfiction...

We'll start here-

That's absolutely incorrect. The simplest example would be the 1960s and all that happened there. There were many that simply chose bi-sexuality, and there are many still making that decision.

Life for homosexuals isn't all that hard right now when it's becoming more defended than items such as the Constitution.

Obviously, your mind is rather limited. You should probably be tested so that a doctor can tell you what I mean.

One day we'll be laughing at this, the same way we laugh at people that still believe in evolution. Of course it isn't a fucking choice. It's the way you are, and that can't be changed.

As a straight man, I'm comfortable enough to admit when another man is attractive. I've also kissed/made-out with another man, and while it was fun considering the environment, it's not something I'd go out and do every day. If I wanted to be gay (re: chose to be gay), I could. Instead of saying "hey, he's a fairly handsome man", I can go and talk to him, flirt with him, and try to get in his pants, just like I would if he was a brunette with her tits falling out. But, I don't. Why?

BECAUSE I DESIRE PUSSY, NOT BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO WANT PUSSY. Just like being straight is a matter of biology, so is being gay.

So in combatant to my post, drawing examples that aren't scientific, you post something, less thought out and very indirect, stating opinions that aren't at all scientific. Well done, sir.

So FTS and VintageRKO, you guys choose to be straight? It's a choice that pussy is what makes your dick hard and turns you on? You choose that, or does it just happen? If you simply choose it, then you also have to believe that tomorrow you could wake up and say fuck pussy, I want to be gay from this point on. Seriously, with your logic in this thread, you're saying you have the ability within you to MAKE yourself attracted to men; that you can automatically make a man turn you on. That's what you two are basically claiming, and it makes zero sense.

You can't completely exaggerate and jump to extremes. What I'm saying is that there are millions of variables, happening at any age, that cause people to act and think the way they do. The easy way out is to say it's biological. When someone has a problem, BOOM! It's an addiction. You cannot generalize a grouping of people based on what has happened to you, personally. I re-act to things much differently than you will. One thing can make your skin boil, and others may make me feel nervous. These variables are hard to determine and evaluate, but that makes much more sense than simply stating it biological with NO evidence supporting that claim.

I stated it earlier, but everyone was wrapped around themselves with othe things, so I'll state it again.. It cannot logically be that the two things humans naturally need to survive they would be un-attracted to. People need to reproduce and they need to eat. Thus far, it hasn't been proven that either occur naturally, and I don't believe it ever will be proven to describe an entire grouping of people. Intelligent-design doesn't support the idea, but evolution and natural selection show even further disdain for the theory of it being biological.

 

[TwistofRKO]

OK, seriously, you don't read the posts do you? Where did I say it was a choice? I didn't. All I said is that scientists haven't proven that there's a genetic component to sexual preference. Are you fucking serious? I swear, I am getting sick of you and NSL not reading anything except one line of a post and getting in a tizzy.

And, beyond that, if you want to say it's genetic, give me something mroe than anecdotal evidence. This weak little, "you don't choose to like pussy" argument is getting old. I give you evidence, from scientists, and you give me, "that's not right, because it's not right." That's a circular argument. Get serious. Find some proof.

I said environmental factors, opportunity, encouragement, all kinds of factors beyond genetics can play a role. There is one small correlation between the size of a region of the brain and sexual preference, but the guy who discovered the correlation doesn't even believe that it's true.

They mapped the entire human genome. Find the gay gene, or find a real argument.

THIS. Really. Instead of picking out a line that doesn't look right, read the entire selection, and if you see a problem with that, address that issue. You can't be entirely dependent on science and/or proof on 99% of issues but simply disregard it here.

Hate to break it to everyone, but just because something defies YOUR logic doesn't mean it's not true.

 

[X]

OK, seriously, you don't read the posts do you? Where did I say it was a choice? I didn't. All I said is that scientists haven't proven that there's a genetic component to sexual preference. Are you fucking serious? I swear, I am getting sick of you and NSL not reading anything except one line of a post and getting in a tizzy.

And, beyond that, if you want to say it's genetic, give me something mroe than anecdotal evidence. This weak little, "you don't choose to like pussy" argument is getting old. I give you evidence, from scientists, and you give me, "that's not right, because it's not right." That's a circular argument. Get serious. Find some proof.

I said environmental factors, opportunity, encouragement, all kinds of factors beyond genetics can play a role. There is one small correlation between the size of a region of the brain and sexual preference, but the guy who discovered the correlation doesn't even believe that it's true.

They mapped the entire human genome. Find the gay gene, or find a real argument.

FTS...you're criticizing NSL and JMT for not listening to you...but you're doing THE SAME THING. You aren't listening to what they're saying either! They aren't saying it's genetic! There's a rather large difference between something being genetic, and something just being a part of your biology. No one is saying there's a "gay" gene. There also isn't a "straight" gene. So, using your logic here, heterosexuality is not genetic as well then?

I just find it rather fucking ridiculous that people who aren't homosexual or bisexual are trying to tell people who are about how we became how we are. Thanks, but I think I'll trust my own years on this Earth and my own development over an internet study you found in 20 seconds on Google. I didn't choose to be this way. I didn't choose to like men, just like I didn't choose to like women, or choose to like a musical group. It's not something you can come up with a mathematical rule for.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Never heard of swans then? They mate and then stay with that mate for the rest of their lives, as do, penguins(see previous post), and many other animals.

Thanks for giving me two examples. Now, there are only a billion more species that I can use to show you that you are wrong.

And animals that mate for life don't do it because they're in love. They do it to propagate the species. The female selects the male, and finds him again next mating season. It's not like they build a house and go on vacation.

I find it funny how homosexuals and their advocates constantly compare themselves to animals, gay swans, gay monkeys, gay turtles. You are a fucking person. You are capable of doing more than giving in to primal urges. Don't get mad at me when I quote scientists that say the genetics argument is bullshit. I'm not the one saying it. All I am saying is that you need to find a different reason for your behavior, if a reason is important you. I don't know why it is so important to everyone to know why they are gay. Shouldn't you be focusing on how to make life better for gays? Shouldn't you focus on how to end prejudice and stereotypes? Instead, you're sitting here trying to tell me that scientists with eleven phd's are wrong because you say so. Give me a fucking break. Do you know how ludicrous that is. You don't understand something, so you hang on to weak connection that may or may not exist as reasoning for something that no one understands. But, instead of accepting that no one understands, you quote some bullshit as gospel, and act like I'm in the wrong. And, some of you are the same people who bash the religious for doing the same thing. What a shame.

 

[X]

We'll start here-

That's absolutely incorrect. The simplest example would be the 1960s and all that happened there. There were many that simply chose bi-sexuality, and there are many still making that decision.

Right. Homosexuality started in the 60's. That's an educated statement.

No one would choose to be homosexual. Why would someone choose to go against the grain and be a minority? Why would someone choose to be a member of one of the most hated against groups in human history?

Life for homosexuals isn't all that hard right now when it's becoming more defended than items such as the Constitution.

And here I thought nothing you could say could make me think even less of your opinion, but here you've gone and topped that.

Excuse me, BUT WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO LIVE AS A HOMOSEXUAL?

You're seriously going to sit here and say "life for homosexuals isn't al that hard"? Are you FUCKING joking me? Seriously, you need to stop posting this bullshit, right now. Because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about kid. Life is easy for a homosexual? Do you live on the planet Earth? Jesus christ kid the amount of homophobia and hate I see on this forum ALONE is ridiculous, yet alone when you walk out into the real world. Homosexuality is still one of the most taboo things in human civilization, I know people (and members of this forum) who've been thrown out of their homes for being homosexual, I know people who have been denied jobs for being homosexual.

I simply cannot believe how ignorant of a statement that was. You've officially proven to us all that you haven't even the slightest fucking clue of what you're talking about.

 

[TwistofRKO]

FTS...you're criticizing NSL and JMT for not listening to you...but you're doing THE SAME THING. You aren't listening to what they're saying either! They aren't saying it's genetic! There's a rather large difference between something being genetic, and something just being a part of your biology. No one is saying there's a "gay" gene. There also isn't a "straight" gene. So, using your logic here, heterosexuality is not genetic as well then?

I just find it rather fucking ridiculous that people who aren't homosexual or bisexual are trying to tell people who are about how we became how we are. Thanks, but I think I'll trust my own years on this Earth and my own development over an internet study you found in 20 seconds on Google. I didn't choose to be this way. I didn't choose to like men, just like I didn't choose to like women, or choose to like a musical group. It's not something you can come up with a mathematical rule for.

Name other traits of yourself, and explain on about how they came to be. Are you a nervous eater? Have bad habits around people older than you? Younger than you?

There are millions of outlining factors that you haven't shared, (not saying you have to ) that you may be unaware of, that we cannot determine by sitting at a computer because we don't know you. It's great to hear you say something, but there's no outlining proof supporting it, and since that's something you must have in EVERY OTHER DEBATE, I'll require it here.

And I have no idea what you refer to about liking various musical groups.. I'm pretty sure that varies, among individuals own minds on a varying basis. You certainly do choose to listen to what you do.

 

[Tastycles]

Freud believed that everyone was born bisexual and it was the way you were brought up that determined your sexuality. I don't agree, but its food for thought.

To me, homosexuality, or at least the presupposition to homosexuality is almost certainly genetic. The studies are there, the fact that, anecdotally, you see a lot of gay people in the same families and the fact that I have never in my life considered shagging a man, whereas I think my open mindedness may have allowed me to think that if capable.

I urge both sides to tread carefully on the animal argument. Sure, anumals have been observed as "homosexual" but remember that they are in capable of love, and the vast majority only have sex as a social hierarchy or reproductive exercise. "I'm the alpha male, so bend over".

I'd like to think its proven genetic, and that the only people who are homophobic will be completely ******ed, whereas now, its acceptable to be uncomfortable around it. I don't think I'd call someone up for saying a homophobic remark, whereas I would over a racist or sexist one.

The resident fundamentalists will be destroyed later.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Saying life isn't hard for a homosexual now is a bit difficult to defend. I agree that no one would choose to put themselves through that. Maybe now, someone will read this and understand where I am coming from. I keep getting lumped into the argument that it is a choice.

All I am trying to say is that there are many factors involved. I know when a man is attractive. I just don't have a desire to act on it. I know what a good looking guy is. I see one every time I look in the mirror.

I just want to know, I guess, is if it's not a choice, and if it's not genetic, then what is it? I am curious. I keep getting told that I'm wrong for saying that there are environmental factors, when I'm pretty sure that there is a large combination of factors both internal and external. I'm trying to understand and keep getting yelled.

X, you say I have no idea what I'm talking about. Instead of telling me that, why don't you help me understand? This discussion is getting a bit chippy, and when there are so many resources on these boards, it could be very enlightening. We have a great discussion going, so let's get that on track.