I was really irritated by how it just seemed to me Flair's whole retirement ceremony and farewell on Raw was somewhat a jab at Hogan. It was like, we know most fans think Hogan's the best but Flair's really the guy and we're going to prove it. Guess what? Flair retired in the House that Hogan Built. To me, when you have J.R. and some of the other wrestlers call Flair the best ever, it's disrespecting Hogan and everything he did for that company. As is the m.o. with WWF/E, whenever somebody leaves the company or isn't on the best of terms they either don't exist anymore or their contributions are diminished or just not recognized anymore.
Pick Your Poison: Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair
- Thread starter Big Ace
- Start date
To be fair to Jim Ross, he's known and watched Flair for the majority of his broadcasting career. And, this is not the first time he's used the words to describe Flair, in fact, he was using them over a decade ago.
Anyone with any reason knows that Hogan is without a doubt the best professional wrestler to ever come along. But, it's kind of like a "best QB ever" conversation. Some will say Montana because of championships, some will say Favre because of total numbers and some others will say Marino just in terms of raw talent.
THIS ISN'T EVEN A DEBATE ITS HOGAN. Like him or not don't be stupid. No body was more popular, and did more for wrestling than Hulk Hogan. Ric Flair is the cool pick to make and was Probably the best promo/interviewer of all time but that doesn't stack to what Hogan was and is to professional wrestling. Hogan is #1 and Flair is #2 always. Nobody will ever get close to them.
Yes, holding people down, strong-arming bookers, burying people to creative, bailing on your company, thinking you can do whatever you want, use cartoonish spots that are completely unbelievable and unrealistic, working the same exact match for 35 years, and having atrocious selling is "what is right about the sport of wrestling".
So true.I will always believe that Ric Flair is the most overrated wrestler of all time.
I agree.
Just imagine this. If Flair never returned in late 2001, does anyone honestly believe that he would still be considered "the greatest of all time", and be as remembered and admired as much as he is now? Hell no. These past 7 years have done wonders for Flair's legacy, because the WWE has constantly been overplaying the quality of his career.
Now imagine if Hogan never returned in 2002, would he still be remembered as much as he is today? Yes, without a doubt.
That's the difference between the two.
Once again, so true. Hogan>Flair. And it's not even close.
Hogan capitvated a whole country. He made wrestling seem almost legit in his hey day. Flair just captivated a small territory. WCW knew this when the bought hogan to come into WCW and they cleanly jobbed their man Flair to him immediately. That would never have happened if it was the other way around. I love Flair but it's easy to pick this one. If the WWE would have used Savage right and Bret Hart wouldn't have ruined his career. We would be talking about who is # 2 between Flair, Savage, and Bret. But because of what has happened Flair is Clear #2.
Even if hogan wanted to have a retirement ceremony like flair had, there is no way the locker room would show him the same respect they did to flair. One more thing to flairs credit, he turned down having the last match at mania, do you think hogan would?
I really think Hogan gets a bad rap. Without a doubt there were times when he should've put someone over but I really feel Hogan wanted to make sure they were worthy. He did it for Warrior and look how he dropped the ball. I think a lot of jealousy among other wrestlers has blown some of those stories about Hogan out of proportion. Hogan has stated many times how much he loves the business and how it's in his blood. All wrestlers wrestle to get to the top for the glory and money. Why else would you beat yourself up night after night? The only reason Flair wrestled as long as he did is because he didn't save his money.
Monkey_Mania
I Am The One Who Knocks
Flair by far. Hogan was good as an entertainer and without him we wouldnt have wrestling today, but the same goes for Ric Flair. I think Ric said it best himself when he said That while he was in the 4 horseman that they had all the talent in the world. The only reason it wasnt as big as hogan was because th NWA did not know how to market. Flair said if Vince was behind The 4 horseman he would market them and that hogan would be opening the card instead of Main eventing.
FACT.
FACT.
Getting divorced 2 times causes one person to not have alot of money saved. Would of flair wrestled as long if he didn't need the money? probably not. Did flairs in ring work deminish over the years? of course. Whether you liked him or not, flair was an all-time great and younger wrestlers should look at old tapes of his promos and in ring work and see how it should be done.
Flair by far. Hogan was good as an entertainer and without him we wouldnt have wrestling today, but the same goes for Ric Flair. I think Ric said it best himself when he said That while he was in the 4 horseman that they had all the talent in the world. The only reason it wasnt as big as hogan was because th NWA did not know how to market. Flair said if Vince was behind The 4 horseman he would market them and that hogan would be opening the card instead of Main eventing.
FACT.
No way. I don't agree with that. The 4 Horsemen could have been main eventing with Hogan but during the 80s NOBODY would've been bigger than Hogan, not even Ric Flair and that's a fact. It took more than just marketing to make Hogan as big as he was.
FACT.
No way. I don't agree with that. The 4 Horsemen could have been main eventing with Hogan but during the 80s NOBODY would've been bigger than Hogan, not even Ric Flair and that's a fact. It took more than just marketing to make Hogan as big as he was.
Monkey_Mania
I Am The One Who Knocks
I don't think so buddy. Flair knows it was the truth as does Hogan. They would have tried to push him but he wouldnt have amounted to jack squat he wouldve been an 80's version of Snitsky. Hogan was a big deal but only because Flair and the horseman were in the crockett promotions instead of up north. Flair said it best and i said it in an earlier post. "Whether you like it or you dont like it, learn to love it because they were the best thing going."
Hogan was a tremendous talent but he couldnt hold a candle to Ric Flair. Hell he couldnt even get his candle lit bright enough compared to Flair.
Please. I love how people use the WWE's DVD division to do their thinking for them.
Wake up. Ric Flair WAS in the WWF, he WAS given EVERYTHING on a silver platter, and he flat flopped on his face. He then went back to WCW, the company he was most associated with, and flopped again. Meanwhile, Hogan led the wrestling business through it's second biggest boom period.
I mean, really, how can Flair fans begin to justify the position that if Flair had been in the WWF, he would have drawn like Hogan?
Hell, Hogan went to WCW and drew bigger than Flair!
That position is absurd, at least in my opinion.
Hogan comes and goes when the money comes and goes. Hogan benefited from the right marketing at the right time. Blonde hair, blue-eyed, all-american in the last peak of the cold war.
And yeah, a wrestling company will just slap the belt on anyone. Flair had the skills to hold the belt that many times. He could tell a story in the ring. Pretty much work with anyone in a match.
But to simplify the answer--Hogan was a better business man, while Flair was the better wrestler.
That must be why he was mega over in Japan as well, right?
Because, it's well known the Japanese wrestling fans are suckers for blonde hair, blue eyed, all-americans.
More like the backstage pull and power.
What story was that?
Well, I'd hope so, considering he used the same exact match every where he went.
Flair's combined 16 title reigns outran Hogans by four months. Nine if you include his five other World title reigns not acknowledged by the WWE.
Both had some fantastic reigns, but had some equally terrible reigns. And it's safe to say that both of their later title reigns didn't mean half as much as their earlier reigns did.
So did Flair.
Because people like Sting, Chris Benoit, Randy Savage, Sherri and Curt Hennig could have made appearances right?
Two of whom he considers his greatest opponents of all time made appearances in Harley Race and Ricky Steamboat, his former stable friends made an appearance, his tag-team partner from the 70's made an appearance, among others. Who else would you have liked to show up?
Who did Ric Flair hold down who had potential to become a big time player?
Is that why he was voted to be the NWA Heavyweight Champion on numerous occasions by the board of directors?
What are some of these 'strong-arming' antics you speak of?
Right, because when somebody comes into a promotion, whom knows nothing about wrestling and wants to compete with Vince McMahon demands you take a substantial pay cut, change your image and reduce your role in the promotion, despite being the biggest draw there at the time.
But I'm sure if Vince McMahon told Hulk Hogan back in 1991 that he had to go completely bald, be reduced to the upper mid-card and take a pay cut, he would have had no problems in doing so.
'bailing on your company'? Flair was fired two weeks before The Great American Bash 1991, so how can he 'bail' on his company when he was fired?
And if I recall, he fulfilled all his commitments during his WWF run up until the last date.
What?
Such as?
Right, because his matches with Ricky Steamboat, Sting, Vader and Masahiro Chono are exactly the same as one another.
'Atrocious selling'? Maybe in his old age yes, but what's atrocious about his selling from the 70's up until the mid-90's when he could still work a good match?
How exactly did he 'flop'? He won the WWF Championship twice and had some great matches and feuds. It would have been foolish of Vince if he thought Flair was going to somehow increase ratings and attendance, especially during a time when the WWF was as hot as they were.
How so?
Which is why, apart from his debut, PPV buys were just as low as the year beforehand?
It's well documented the fortunes of WCW changed when Hogan arrived and won the title from Flair. As far as Hogan just being in the right place at the right time when Hulkamania started in 1984 and that he only got as big as he did because of McMahan's marketing, you need to check your history. Hogan was already big in the AWA. Hulkamania was around before he hit the WWF in 1984 and it was because of Hogan's charisma and persona. There was no Vince McMahon in the AWA. The WWF gave Hogan his national stage and when he got on stage he dominated for 8 years on top until 1992, then was reborn in WCW in 1994, and was reborn again in WWE in 2002.
I'm not denying Ric Flair's greatness but let's stop drinking the Ric Flair Kool-Aid.
I'm not denying Ric Flair's greatness but let's stop drinking the Ric Flair Kool-Aid.
How did you come by this information?
Who said he didn't?
More than 5 people that don't currently work in the WWE?
Umm, are you really asking me that question? How can I tell you who could be a big time player if he held them down?
Flair was notorious for that. Are you disputing this?
You mention one right below this.
It's highly arguable that Flair was the biggest draw there at the time.
Not to mention Flair was only made the champion because of the ability of the heel to travel to different promotions and take on their top guy. Flair would escape with the title, and the promotions top guy would look good, and the promotion would still draw.
Flair drew on the backs of others and perceived reputation. When he was exposed on a constant basis to the same viewing audience, his drawing power diminished completely.
Maybe that was recognized way back in 1991.
The difference is that Hogan was still the biggest draw in the world.
Flair arguably wasn't even the biggest draw in WCW.
He refused to go to shows, which is why he was fired.
He bailed.
You're kidding right?
The turnbuckle flip, and running to the other corner just to get thrown off, the getting punched, walking out and then flopping on his face.
Those are just two.
They followed the same layout and would always include the same silly illogical spots.
His selling is atrocious.
He flopped because attendance dropped during his run, fan interest dropped, and money revenue dropped. Why do you think they got the title off him so fast, after working so hard to build him up as the greatest?
Because, he couldn't draw flies to shit.
You must have missed that whole nWo thing.
You should check it out. Good stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NWA_World_Heavyweight_Champions
Not the most credible source, but I see no reason why the dates would lie. I'm aware not all of them will be accurate though.
What does that matter? Alot of people from his past work for the WWE.
I asked who potentially could have been a big time player.
Who would you argue against Flair being the top draw at this time in the company?
And not for one second have I ever disputed that.
In 1991? Again,
MattMoses said:
This is the first I've heard of it. Where did you find this out?
Walk me through this 'layout' and 'the same silly illogical spots'.
No it wasn't.
First I've heard of it. Source?
He had a moderately decent run in just under 4 or so months. Once he won it again, he dropped it within a month due to an inner ear injury which affected his equilibrium.
I sure didn't. But it took two years, a Heel change and two of the WWF's top stars to improve ratings. His 'Hulkamania' gimmick didn't draw shit in WCW.
Although I will be the first to say that Flair has had the greatest CAREER of all time, I would have to take Hogan. Flairs longeveity was amazing and his title record is very impressive, but we are talking about Hulk Hogan here. Hulk was WWE's biggest draw ever, without him we might not be watching the wrestling we know today. He was the ultimate face, his title runs were more impressive as Flair, you cant have a lot of reigns if you reigns last so long, right? Although I would put Flair probably second among the all time greats behind Hogan and first when it comes to there entire career, it is easy to recognize that Hogan is the greatest of all time, he had a bigger impact on the business than anybody else did, and he drew a hell of a lot better than Flair, whatever Hogan put his hands on worked, he was the ultimate draw and the greatest of all time.
How does that source show length of Flair's reigns?
If you would delve more deeply into it, you would notice how Flair was getting credit for time as both the WCW and NWA champion.
You asked, and I told you. Obviously, there weren't too many people there from his past that did not currently work for the WWE.
Well, just as an example, Shane Douglas is one name who has talked about Flair's politicking.
Now, I'm always leary of anything Douglas says, but there is one example just off the top of my head.
Are you denying that many people have said the same about Flair?
Sting, Luger, and the Steiners were all big draws. Sting and Luger in particular.
Flair's DVD.
Watch his DVD, and you'll see it.
It's been well documented, but ask yourself this question.
The WWF spent months hyping up the "great" Ric Flair. He was thrown in the main-event scene immediately, cost Hogan the title, etc. He won the Royal Rumble from the #3 after having the longest in-ring time in the Rumble history.
How come they took the title off him less than 3 months later?
And yet, he wrestled a month later at Survivor Series.
Shocking, eh?
But, you're right. Despite having zero PPV shows before Survivor Series, clearly Flair couldn't keep the title for one more month, at which point he would be completely ok to wrestle again.
His watered down Hulkamania gimmick still drew better than Flair did. Again, this is well documented.
Simple. Look at the date he won a title and then the date he lost it. Combine the total time he held World Championships, and you have it.
Okay. Who would you have liked to seen there, outside of people who are no longer with us or contracted to other wrestling promotions?
I'm aware of this, though I only know the vague details. How was it Flair was holding Douglas back?
Not at all. I just don't know of many people who have openly spoken about their experiences with Flair holding them down.
Sting would probably come closest of these. I think the Steiners were bigger in Japan around this time.
I don't see it.
Did you buy his DVD? To watch his 'silly illogical spots'?
They spent a month at most hyping his debut. And he probably dropped it a few months later because Savage was mega-over, and one of the biggest stars in the company.
How come they gave it back to him short of 5 months later?
Perhaps it wouldn't look good for the company if their champion was cut off television, house shows and storylines for a month? Or they was aware he was departing with the company soon?
But what did Hogan's 'watered down Hulkamania gimmick' do to help WCW? Ratings didn't improve, PPV buys didn't increase.
Freedom 35
Kyle Orton Legend Killer
If hes not I am Ric Flair was almost always willing to put a guy over and if it was someone he wouldnt want to put over he wouldnt throw a huge fit like Hogan and wouldnt stay bitter about it for years so much so that he had to feel like he had to make up the loss years later in a different promotion *cough* Renegade*cough* so that argument for Flair has little to no weight in this debate seeing as how his competition was much worse and much more unreasonable when it came time to job
Sly that makes no sense sure he wrestled in different promotions over the course of the week but that doesnt mean he wasnt seen every week nationwide. Ric Flair didnt just go from promotion to promotion he built feuds he cut promos with other huge NWA guys like Ricky Steamboat or Dusty Rhodes all on a weekly TV program and if he wasnt a huge draw why did all the PPVs he headlined during that time draw huge gates and bring in loads of cash? and dont tell me it was because of his reputation, a mainstream audience saw enough of him to know whether he was good or not.
he was owed alot of money and was being screwed by the company and he technically owned the title so he did nothing wrong there.......if your reffering to something else please disregard this
are you serious a match is about entertaining the fans and watch those two spots in a Ric Flair match theyre some of the most over spots in the whole match, and what wasnt completely unrealistic about someone getting their ass kicked and getting strength out of no where no selling some punches and coming from weak and having no power left to overpowering an opponent in seconds...now that sounds illogical
haha false every wrestler wrestles a certain style and has a routine of moves they do, Ric Flair sure he had a routine but he with the exception of a few other wrestlers Hart and Steamboat off the top of my head could go out and wrestle a 30-45 minute match every night and keep it fresh and keep the fans into it every time, and while I dont doubt you know alot there are loads and loads of great pro wrestlers who praise Flairs work endlessly and like I said while you know alot I highly doubt a gym teacher from Missouri knows as much about how to be a great pro wrestler as those guys
The question that you have to ask yourself is this, Who would you rather watch in there prime. A hogan match that was a given that hogan would win with a "powerfull" boot to the face and a "massive" legdrop, or a flair match that went 30-45 min and on occasion an hour, that went back and forth with flairs blond hair all red and a chance of a title change (thus the 16 title reigns).
Personally I blame hogans success on Rocky III.
Personally I blame hogans success on Rocky III.
G
god12345
Guest
Hogan basically invented wrestling as we know it today way before the Monday night wars.
Flair just sort of hung around because of his mike skills and their wasn't a heel with as sure of a routine as him. Flair was in the horseman but they sucked there was never a more boring stable than them. However that was arn andersons fault not flairs.
Hulk Hogan revolutionised wrestling twice: first with Hulkamania then with the nWo. Ric flair never even changed his ring attire.
I never liked Ric Flair- not then not now
Flair only has sympathy now because of his recent match at wrestlemania.
If it weren't for Hogan wrestling wouldn't be big now and nobody would have heard of flair so to answer the question Hulk Hogan will always rule!
Flair just sort of hung around because of his mike skills and their wasn't a heel with as sure of a routine as him. Flair was in the horseman but they sucked there was never a more boring stable than them. However that was arn andersons fault not flairs.
Hulk Hogan revolutionised wrestling twice: first with Hulkamania then with the nWo. Ric flair never even changed his ring attire.
I never liked Ric Flair- not then not now
Flair only has sympathy now because of his recent match at wrestlemania.
If it weren't for Hogan wrestling wouldn't be big now and nobody would have heard of flair so to answer the question Hulk Hogan will always rule!
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