Oh Jeff, You Goof

[Slyfox696]

^ Seconded

 

[Remix]

Eh to me it's always been clear that TNA get fewer buys than WWE. I don't know how much, but since their audience is much smaller chances are that there aren't going to be as many fans watching. No hard evidence, but a little common sence brings me to that conclusion.

As for the contract sizes, you yourself stated that the top guys make > $500K, combine that with a smaller amount of revenue to make (fewer house shows, therefore less money made on the door and at merchandice stands) and it's not a massive leap to reach the conclusion that TNA make less money out of their wrestlers than WWE do.

The contracts are by no means astronomical though. I believe part of Kurt's contract was paid for by Spike TV, making it possible for TNA to afford him.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Next to nothing? When Sting and Angle first came to TNA, their contracts were reputedly over $500,000. What's this "next to nothing" stuff? Do YOU make over $500,000 a year?

From everything I have read about TNA and how much they pay wrestlers, it doesn't sound like a lot (http://wrestlingguru.blogspot.com/2007/08/how-much-do-tna-wrestlers-get-paid.html). I understand the top guys make a lot more money than the low-to-mid card guys do, and I should have been clear about that. However, it seems as though most guys working for TNA aren't being paid very much. It's not like this is my own opinion, whipped up out of nowhere. I'm talking about what I have read. Maybe the reports are wrong, and if you have read something totally opposite, feel free to share.

If so, can I have a job?

No, I wouldn't want the inmates attempting to run the asylum

 

[Slyfox696]

From everything I have read about TNA and how much they pay wrestlers, it doesn't sound like a lot (http://wrestlingguru.blogspot.com/2007/08/how-much-do-tna-wrestlers-get-paid.html). I understand the top guys make a lot more money than the low-to-mid card guys do, and I should have been clear about that. However, it seems as though most guys working for TNA aren't being paid very much. It's not like this is my own opinion, whipped up out of nowhere. I'm talking about what I have read. Maybe the reports are wrong, and if you have read something totally opposite, feel free to share.

With all due respect, why exactly should I take that blog to mean anything? What credentials does that person have to make it worth my time to believe what he says?

In fact, I find that blog to be extremely difficult to believe, because were it true, why would anyone give up their indy bookings to go there? I remember reading once where Samoa Joe said he made $90,000 or more, either in TNA or in the Indy leagues. Taking him as an example, if that is true, then either your blog is wrong, or wrestlers are incredibly stupid to turn down $90,000 a year for $19,000.


EDIT: Here's a list from 2008 I've found, which originally came from tnawrestlingnews.com. Believe it or not, but it seems far more realistic than someone like AJ Styles making $19,000 a year.

A.J Styles $115,000
Alex Shelley $82,000
Angelina Love $60,000 (expected to rise)
Awesome Kong $90,000
BG James $115,000
Black Reign $80,000
Booker T $556,000 (First class flight tickets paid for to arenas, hotel & transportation)
Chris Sabin $75,000
Christian Cage $376,000 (First class flight tickets paid for to arenas)
Christy Hemme $157,000 (First class flight tickets paid for to arenas)
Elix Skipper $45,000
Eric Young $88,000
Gail Kim $105,000
Hemandez $90,000
Homicide $90,000
Jacqueline $60,000
James Storm $90,000 (expected to rise)
Jay Lethal $75,000 (expected to rise)
Jimmy Rave $65,000
Johnny Devine $50,000
Kaz $86,000 (expected to rise)
Karen Angle $75,000 (First class flight tickets paid for to arenas)
Kevin Nash $126,000
Kip James $123,000
Kurt Angle $600,000 guaranteed (First class flight tickets paid for to arenas, hotel & transportation)
Lance Hoyt $75,000
Matt Morgan $90,000 (expected to rise)
ODB $85,000
Petey Williams $76,000 (expected to rise)
Rellik $62,000
Rhino $140,000
Robert Roode $90,000 (expected to rise)
Roxxi Laveaux $90,000
Salinas $60,000
Samoa Joe $156,000
Scott Steiner $133,000
Shark Boy $70,000
Sonjay Dutt $85,000
Sting $673,000
Tomko $110,000
Traci Brooks $83,000
Velvet Sky $60,000 (expected to rise)

As far as where I found this in particular, just do a Google search for "tna salary averages 2008".

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

With all due respect, why exactly should I take that blog to mean anything? What credentials does that person have to make it worth my time to believe what he says?

In fact, I find that blog to be extremely difficult to believe, because were it true, why would anyone give up their indy bookings to go there? I remember reading once where Samoa Joe said he made $90,000 or more, either in TNA or in the Indy leagues. Taking him as an example, if that is true, then either your blog is wrong, or wrestlers are incredibly stupid to turn down $90,000 a year for $19,000.


EDIT: Here's a list from 2008 I've found, which originally came from tnawrestlingnews.com. Believe it or not, but it seems far more realistic than someone like AJ Styles making $19,000 a year.



As far as where I found this in particular, just do a Google search for "tna salary averages 2008".

I have also found a list that looks somewhat like the one you provided:
http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/91717/The-Thursday-Small-For-All-News-Report:-12.04.08.htm
Actually, the guys make more money on the list I found. But once again, these lists mean nothing, because they have no real sources.

In all honesty, I don't care how much they make. Neither one of us have found anything official, and we probably never will. But my original point remains the same. Spending $18,000 on that belt is ridiculous. It's a very small piece of a shitty angle, and it just isn't needed.

 

[Slyfox696]

I have also found a list that looks somewhat like the one you provided:
http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/91717/The-Thursday-Small-For-All-News-Report:-12.04.08.htm
Actually, the guys make more money on the list I found. But once again, these lists mean nothing, because they have no real sources.

In all honesty, I don't care how much they make. Neither one of us have found anything official, and we probably never will.

Agreed, but I think you were trying to get across the perception that TNA wastes money on belts, and not on talent. And for a wrestling company, that would be bad business.

But my original point remains the same. Spending $18,000 on that belt is ridiculous. It's a very small piece of a shitty angle, and it just isn't needed.

I don't believe $18,000 is really that much, not to a company that was paying 5x that for BG James. And Jeff Hardy's title is used more and is more valuable to TNA than BG James ever was.

 

[TheAbsolute1]

I recently read that Taz got pissed about his paycheck and basically called the new title a waste of money too.

 

[Slyfox696]

I recently read that Taz got pissed about his paycheck and basically called the new title a waste of money too.

Taz is a color commentator, and a poor one at that. I'd be surprised if TNA gives a rats ass if he's happy or what he thinks.

 

[TheAbsolute1]

you're right about him being a terrible commentator, but if they still have that other old sucky guy then I'm pretty sure they're desperate.

 

[Slyfox696]

you're right about him being a terrible commentator, but if they still have that other old sucky guy then I'm pretty sure they're desperate.

Surely you are not referring to Don West. Because he kicked all kinds of ass, and was far better than Taz has ever been.

 

[TheAbsolute1]

Surely you are not referring to Don West. Because he kicked all kinds of ass, and was far better than Taz has ever been.

All I'm saying is that I've never enjoyed a second of either one of their commentary. But I'm not a TNA fan so maybe it's not my place to judge.

 

[Mekanik Kommandoh]

The more I'm forced to hear Taz's shitty commentary, the more I miss Don West. The least they could do is make a three man team and shoehorn West into the middle of Taz and Tenay.

 

[Slyfox696]

Taz has always been terrible, and I've always noted how terrible he was. I still don't understand why TNA hired him.

I'll support a lot of things TNS, but not the hiring of Taz. I didn't then, and I still don't now.

 

[TheAbsolute1]

Surely you are not referring to Don West. Because he kicked all kinds of ass, and was far better than Taz has ever been.

oh dude I just realized you got me confused haha I used to like the fat guy Don West, and I hated the old guy, Tenay I guess. Back when west was commentating I was all into TNA

 

[a0161613]

Care to reveal these numbers, Numbers?

I'm certain I've read in Power Slam, a UK wrestling mag, that they do pretty horrible numbers, regularly a lot less then 100,000. If I remember correctly, they said Hardcore Justice did less than 10,000.

I know they dont release the information but it has to be available. If they got half what WWE get I am sure they'd announce it.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm certain I've read in Power Slam, a UK wrestling mag, that they do pretty horrible numbers, regularly a lot less then 100,000. If I remember correctly, they said Hardcore Justice did less than 10,000.

I know they dont release the information but it has to be available. If they got half what WWE get I am sure they'd announce it.

Uh, no, it doesn't. That's the point shattered dreams is making. Any numbers that are "reported" don't have an credibility, since TNA DOESN'T release the numbers.

 

[shattered dreams]

Someone blogged the numbers? Well, let me take ten minutes and make my "evidence" to the contrary. Seriously though, even if you did know the contracts and PPV buys you still do not know their cut from Universal, production costs (significantly less than WWE for obvious reasons and because they do not have to rent the building they do shows in), how much spike pays of the bigger contracts, how much spike pays TNA for impact and reaction, how much other countries do and for Xplosion (seem to be on the uptick in foreign markets and expanding), how much they make off of merchandise (obviously up this year), how much they make from house shows and costs associated with travel and I am sure there are other things as well.

Long story short anyone that claims it is obvious TNA has money problems and only mentions hearsay about one or two factors while ignoring many others has no credibility in my book. Its just not that simple and anyone buying into that story as fact is gullible.

I have heard good things about Taz as a behind the scenes guy but I am not much of a fan of his as an announcer. I think they miss Don West's energy which can be used to sell the action better than the current booth.

 

[a0161613]

Someone blogged the numbers?

No, I said somebody published the numbers. So I am sure they wrote it with some credibility and confidence behind what they are saying.

We can speculate about the financial state of TNA until the cows come home - we have to speculate because we have no evidence either way. HOWeVER it is my opinion that they are losing a fortune but while Panda Energy continues to back them, they have no reason to worry about anything.

 

[shattered dreams]

No, I said somebody published the numbers. So I am sure they wrote it with some credibility and confidence behind what they are saying.

Yet they failed to include the stuff that would give it credibility because ... ? If they were confident or had reason to be why wouldn't they say why? That would surely drive traffic higher because it would be a bigger story. Speaking of driving traffic higher, random contrived flavor of the month stories have a tendency to do that.

HOWeVER it is my opinion that they are losing a fortune but while Panda Energy continues to back them, they have no reason to worry about anything.

Care to say why you think they are losing a fortune?

 

[a0161613]

Yet they failed to include the stuff that would give it credibility because ... ? If they were confident or had reason to be why wouldn't they say why? That would surely drive traffic higher because it would be a bigger story. Speaking of driving traffic higher, random contrived flavor of the month stories have a tendency to do that.

Why would it drive traffic? Why would they make a big thing of publishing TNA's ratings and buyrates? It's nothing at the end of the day. It's simply not a newsworthy item.

I'm pretty sure a journalist for a magazine has better placed sources and more valid info than we do.

Care to say why you think they are losing a fortune?

Find the post with all the contract figures on. Not only are their wrestlers there who are lucky to have a job, there are plenty there who are paid well beyond their worth. Plus they paid J-Woww $15,000 for one Impact appearance. And they paid $18000 for a title belt which looks fricking ridiculous.

But it's not their money so why should they care.

Edit: A quick Google search

In a scary fucking stat, it is believed that the May and June TNA PPVs did approximately 8,000 buys each. Keep in mind they were doing 25,000 to 30,000 back when they had TV at 11 p.m. on Saturday nights. I cannot imagine Victory Road doing much more than that. That's a gross for the company of about $111,000, and if you consider the costs of running a live PPV they're now losing their ass on these shows. For a comparison, and for those trying to defend Vince Russo as a booker, I think WCW at the bitter, bitter end was still doing around 40,000 buys on PPV. It's bad enough that nobody is buying the shows, but worse, people care so little about TNA that statistically nobody is even bothering to stream them for free. According to a source in monitoring, there are usually 30 to 50 unique live streams for wrestling PPVs with an average of 1,000 viewers per stream prior to the streams being terminated. For TNA Victory Road last week there were only five streams across all the major live streaming sites (Justin.tv, Ustream.tv and freedocast.com). The show had less than 1,500 viewers total. WWE streams are in the triple digits with most averaging 60,000 viewers, and UFC tends to have live viewers in excess of 200,000.

To follow up on earlier reports that Pay Per View buyrates for TNA were at dangerously low levels, new reports are surfacing stating that both the May and June TNA PPV events (Sacrifice and Slammiversary) drew approximately 8,000 buys each.

In comparison, the company was averaging around 25,000 to 30,000 back in 2005/2006 when they had a Saturday night timeslot at 11:00 p.m. ET as opposed to a Thursday primetime slot. If the numbers are as accurate as stated, it would seem TNA is actually now losing money running these monthly events when you also factor in the costs of running a live PPV.

One theory was that more people are watching illegal streams of the events online. However, a source that monitors illegal PPV streams online has stated TNA averages about 30 to 50 streams with an average of 1,000 viewers total. Illegal streams for WWE events tend to average 60,000 viewers, while UFC (who has gone after those who illegally stream their events) average in excess of 200,000.

Source: The Figure Four Weekly Newsletter

 

[shattered dreams]

Find the post with all the contract figures on. Not only are their wrestlers there who are lucky to have a job, there are plenty there who are paid well beyond their worth. Plus they paid J-Woww $15,000 for one Impact appearance. And they paid $18000 for a title belt which looks fricking ridiculous.

33,000 is a fortune? Dixie said they took in around 15 million under oath in 2007. What the guys are worth is subjective and none of this proves they are losing a fortune in the least.

Why would it drive traffic? Why would they make a big thing of publishing TNA's ratings and buyrates? It's nothing at the end of the day. It's simply not a newsworthy item.

Then why did they do an article about it to begin with? Why are we talking about it if it isn't newsworthy?

 

[shattered dreams]

In a scary fucking stat, it is believed (interesting how they leave out why) that the May and June TNA PPVs did approximately 8,000 buys each. Keep in mind they were doing 25,000 to 30,000 back when they had TV at 11 p.m. on Saturday nights. (was there was a price difference) I cannot imagine (credibility alert) Victory Road doing much more than that. That's a gross for the company of about $111,000, and if you consider the costs of running a live PPV (that I won't list because I do not know and my imagination is tired) they're now losing their ass on these shows. For a comparison, and for those trying to defend Vince Russo as a booker, I think WCW at the bitter, bitter end was still doing around 40,000 buys on PPV. (too lazy to even look that up? but I am supposed to take the other stuff seriously? also why is wcw even brought up?)

I ignored the stream part because it was and remains to be one of the dumbest attempts at veiled credibility I have ever seen. Has more holes than swiss cheese after a shotgun blast.

Even if any of this is true why are we focusing solely on TNA weakest asset to describe the entire company?

 

[ABMorales787]

Wait. Where did the mocking of a World Champion for leaving his title behind go?