[Official] Disco Nation

Status
Not open for further replies.
But if we're living in a post-Janet-Superbowl world where advertisers and censors are a little on edge. If we're living in a post-Rock/Austin world where wrestlers would rather learn a 630 splash through a flaming barbed wire table than how to cut an effective promo. If we live in that world, then why not change the product to better utilize this generation of wrestler's better qualities, and try to hide their weaker qualities? Why not change the product to successfully avoid an advertiser's annoying complaints or threats?

Because if we're using a concept that's better fit for the 90's society (looser regulations on content, a better, more charismatic batch of talent to deal with), then it seems kind of unfair to keep trying to pull something out of a wrestler that isn't really there, right? It seems unfair to use a product that must conserve itself just to make it through the censors. Because then you're just throwing a watered down version of what was. Watered down "charisma" in wrestlers doing watered down storylines. It becomes diminished in force and effectiveness. If you're putting out a watered down Attitude era, then you can expect watered down attitude era ratings, no?

So what about a natural progression for wrestling? If wrestlers are better workers than talkers, then utilize that. If Chris Sabin can't cut a promo, but can throw out a match that has fans going crazy, then why put him in a position where he's forced to show his weakness and try to hide what he does well?
Yep. Accentuate positive, hide negatives. That's more than just a Paul Heyman outlook. It's common sense. If a guy is not a very good speaker, then rather than throw him out there to speak, give him something to work with that he excels with. A hot chick that can talk, a manager, make his the workhorse in a tag team, a bodyguard gimmick if he's a big guy.

Case in point: I'll never understand why WWE had Khali as a wrestler and Daivari as a near full-time talker. Put Daivari in the ring and Khali as his bodyguard manservant. OK, maybe not the "manservant" part, but you get the point...

As for Sabin, I think he can cut a decent promo when he's allowed to show his snarky sarcastic side. Something I noticed when I met him in 2006, long before the MCMGs started.

Onto a point I made earlier, which is the "coolness" factor. I'm a general believer that fans and viewers will not care if they watch 2 hours of the purest wrestling or 2 hours of the longest storyline segment ever, so long as it's "cool".
This point to the letter is inarguable. The only problem is what is "cool" is open to interpretation.

So what makes something cool? The clothes? If Abyss walked out to the ring with an Affliction shirt and a tapout hat, would that make him cool? How famous somebody is? If WWE hired Paris Hilton, would that make the WWE cool?

I think what it comes down to is the atmosphere. I mean, have you ever scrolled through the TV channels and found a local television sports show. The low-budget kind with crappy lighting and one or two cameras in the studio, with two old guys who sit at a table and talk about Ay-see-see football? Why don't you stop to watch it? They realistically don't say many things differently than what you find on SportsCenter, right? They say simular things, might report the same news, but nobody wants to tune in. Why? Because the atmosphere. When you watch it you think, "okay...there's no way anybody else is watching this right now" and you change the channel. You know that just from 2 seconds of seeing the atmosphere in their studio. What about a local MMA promotion? Who goes there, but MMA nuts? Your casual UFC fan isn't going to, because the local promotion isn't "cool" like UFC and doesn't have the same atmosphere. His buddies at work and school aren't going to be talking nor will they care about some local MMA promotion.
I can very much attest to UFC fans being former wrestling fans. Heck there's a study out there that practically proves it, I just forget the link.

But I know two more guys at my work who love UFC. They used to watch wrestling a decade ago but it got "too silly" for them a few years back. Both of them were drawn to my computer wallpaper for Hard Justice 2007 (with Joe vs. Angle for the five title belts) and they seemed interested... until they heard about Angle in his skivvies and his "divorce"...

I think the same can be said for TNA iMPACT!. If your crowd looks terribly depressed and are sitting on their hands at key points to the show when they should be screaming, ooing, and aaing, then your show is basically becoming the equivelent of that small-budget, dimly lit, local sports show.
Not only that, but with all the attempts at "sports entertainment" on a show that is clearly nowhere near the budget range of WWE, it comes off as a cheap imitation.

I don't think I'll ever understand TNA's current mindset. WWE makes it no secret that they emphasize entertainment over wrestling. So to be an "alternative", TNA decides to emphasize entertainment over wrestling.

Take this past episode as evidence. The previous weeks, The Beautiful People get in Taylor Wilde's face, embarrass her by painting her face, and her big moment to keep things going... is to play drums in a beauty pageant...

Heck, just look at the title matches for the upcoming PPV.

X-Division - Where were any of the guys this week? The site says it's Petey vs. Creed vs. Bashir, but I had to go to the website to see that. Didn't Creed win the contenders match? So even when you lose you still get the title shot.

Tag Title - The Tag Title contestants are nowhere to be found. If they aren't even on TV, why should I care to pay to see them on Sunday?

World Title - Joe has four opponents, but how many of them had any time this week? Joe was more concerned with trash talking Sting, Angle and Booker were busy with Abyss & Morgan (who they aren't wrestling at the PPV), and Christian got about three minutes to talk about it after wrestling Abyss (who he isn't wrestling at the PPV).

Yet we have two talking segments from Sting (who isn't wrestling at the PPV last I checked), a Beauty Pageant from the Knockouts who said they weren't about lingerie and bikinis a few weeks ago ("that's for Divas"), and the final big moment of the show being Jeff Jarrett (who isn't wrestling at the PPV)

But if you look at segments like Angle's TNA debut where he headbutted Samoa Joe and the crowd went into a frenzy, you felt like you were watching something special and your show, for those 5 minutes, were the best television that a viewer could decide to watch. Nobody would watch how the fans react and say, "okay, there's something better on".
That was a great segment, and was given time to sink in, which helped make it great. They didn't go "TO THE BACK!!!!!!!" or instantly cut to a pretaped package to make you forget what just happened.

It rides on the atmosphere, and I hate to say it, but the atmosphere in the iMPACT! Zone is dull and faded on a heavily storyline influenced show. Fans don't explode for a storyline twist like they used to. Especially in a place like Orlando, where you have to entertain the same fans week in and week out. Personally, and I can only say this as a wrestling fan, I'd like to see a bit of change in the TNA product to pander to what the fans want, and I'll be honost, I think it's more geared to an aggressive style of wrestling than storylines. The change doesn't mean "fire Russo" or "fire TNA creative", I would just like to see them try something a little fresh and more up to speed with what society likes.
When you give fans 732 "swerves" they come to expect them, and thus don't mark for them because they're either conditioned to expect them, or are just numb to them.
 
I blocked zandrax's posts here like i did in the other forum due to this guy's unhealthy obsession with me and trying to get me to respond. (obsession).. but i wanted to make a post about the ratings to buyrate discussion that other posters and i have continuously debated on the other forum. i just made the following post:

"I dont know what's so difficult to understand about TV show leading to PPV. People say we want higher buyrates.

I watch TNA IMPACT, and the show is filled with stories that build to the PPV and the higher amount of people that "sample" the product and want to see "what happens" in the feud at the match at the PPV will check it out and pay if they want to. There are no bars, media outlets, like UFC, and there is more piracy than ever.. I dont think anybody downloads UFC ppvs (for the most part) and watches it alone.. UFC is enjoyable watching at a bar, with friends at a friend's house

You don't see that for wrestling nowadays.. So TNA ratings to buys conversion are comparable to WWE ratings to buys conversion (WWE has 3 shows btw).. And it pretty much evens out and we don't have the exact numbers for TNA.

SOme people talk as if Ru$so writes a show every week and doesn't build to any matches at PPV when that's wrong. I watched the last two impacts and most of the stuff build to it.. If tehre is entertainment that doesn't.. it'd be for teh purpose of developing the character in hopes of having the tv viewers enjoy the character and tune in at subsequent weesk to see what happens

He did the exact same thing in the WWF and ratings and buyrates increased. It wasn't just ratings.. It was the buyrates building due to the hype he wrote on WWF Raw every single week. Take SummerSlam 1997 for example and watch the Raw buildup to not only the main event, but for most matches on the card. Even In Your House Canadian Stampede.. it was all the characters built up on the Monday show and feud escalating with teh Hart Foundation vs the "bad guys" in teh US

I dont' understand the argument.. I watch impact and see a well pushed show for No Surrender where every match has a story behind it.. it's the soap opera element where people pay to tune into the PPV to see what happens to that story and at the match...

He's been writing like that forever.. what is the argument? You honestly want to eliminate all and everything "entertainment" to prevent characters from growing. If everyone talked the same way "I want the belt", nobody gets pushed and it doesn't intrigue the viewer to see the same promo/story for 2 hours a week. Ru$so changes things up

There is no argument because he is already pushing for the PPVs and hoping to get higher ratings at the same time - the EXACT same thing he did in the WWF. It's not like he's doing a 2 hour segment that doesn't amount to any PPV.. so this argument is basically closed."
 
I have to admit, "unhealthy obsession" coming from the guy who can't make a post without mentioning Vince Russo is a bit ironic.
 
my reply to his reply:

So how is Christian wrestling Abyss building towards the four way? How dows Angle and Booker wrestling Abyss and Morgan build towards the fourway for them?

How does Joe talking to Sting add anything to the main event match?

And how does making entire buildup of the show end with a return of Jeff Jarrett add anything the the PPV?
I clicked to see what this guy was going to say..

1) Christian vs Abyss: Watch the finish. Booker/Angle attacked Christian. Booker/Angle vs Abyss/Morgan built for the match during the show - Ru$so's forte for building interest for viewers for that show. Again, watch the finish for that match as well where you see 3D interfere

2) Joe/Sting are part of an ongoing story that will be continued AT the PPV - as Jeff Jarrett and Sting will both be there - expectedly at the main event. Again, Classic Ru$so writing gathering interest FOR the PPV..

Where is the argument that Ru$so never builds toward the PPV storyline wise.. Every single match is built towards the feud... Even where there are segments that have nothing to do with wrestling - see Rock and Sock - it's used to build interest for the fans to enjoy the characters to have them come back to see what the characters do the next week - which most expectedly involves progressing a feud. Parts of the show are used to generate viewing interest and gauge them to watch on a regular basis...

That has always been Ru$so's forte.. My argument can be said that in 2005 before Ru$so came along that TNA did a horrendous job of building towards PPVs for matches they would have, for promos that sounded the same, for stories that usually don't lead anywhere and are executed poorly. Even the Jeff vs Sting story - original has been criticized greatly on the net for being done the way it was.
 
my reply to his reply:


I clicked to see what this guy was going to say..

1) Christian vs Abyss: Watch the finish. Booker/Angle attacked Christian. Booker/Angle vs Abyss/Morgan built for the match during the show - Ru$so's forte for building interest for viewers for that show. Again, watch the finish for that match as well where you see 3D interfere
Think about it. Christian has a title shot on Sunday. Why would he worry himself with answering Abyss's open challenge? Why is he more concerned about wrestling Abyss than getting ready for Joe? It just makes no sense, and that's without even getting into Abyss's first match in months taking place on free TV.

2) Joe/Sting are part of an ongoing story that will be continued AT the PPV - as Jeff Jarrett and Sting will both be there - expectedly at the main event. Again, Classic Ru$so writing gathering interest FOR the PPV..
Last time I checked, Sting is not advertised for the PPV. He is not involved in any match, and certainly not one against Joe. I know Joe "welcomed" him to come to the PPV, but it seems he's more concerned about Sting, who is not in the match, than his three challengers.

Where is the argument that Ru$so never builds toward the PPV storyline wise.. Every single match is built towards the feud... Even where there are segments that have nothing to do with wrestling - see Rock and Sock - it's used to build interest for the fans to enjoy the characters to have them come back to see what the characters do the next week - which most expectedly involves progressing a feud. Parts of the show are used to generate viewing interest and gauge them to watch on a regular basis...
Ending each show with Sting promos about the young guns is not enticing people to buy the PPVs. There is a reason why they call it the "go home" show. Yet the champion seems unconcerned with defending his title, and the three contenders seemed more concerned with other things than getting ready for their title shot. People notice things like this in this day and age. Back in the Attitude days, the final segment usually involved the main eventers for the PPVs rubbing elbows.

This one involved two guys who haven't wrestled in months (or years) who aren't even set for the PPV.

And nice job dodging the points about the tag champions and their contenders, along with the X-Division Champion and his contenders, being nowhere around in the final show before the PPV. But hey, we got a beauty pageant.
 
can't read your posts:

Think about it. Christian has a title shot on Sunday. Why would he worry himself with answering Abyss's open challenge? Why is he more concerned about wrestling Abyss than getting ready for Joe? It just makes no sense, and that's without even getting into Abyss's first match in months taking place on free TV.

They explained it.. you just weren't paying attention. he was getting ready for his four way match and accepted the challenge. he even showed up being lauren during a backstage interview. Again, watch the aftermath. I was actually surprised to see Christian accept the match.

Last time I checked, Sting is not advertised for the PPV. He is not involved in any match, and certainly not one against Joe. I know Joe "welcomed" him to come to the PPV, but it seems he's more concerned about Sting, who is not in the match, than his three challengers.

They said he was going to be there. Watch the soulcrusher package.. he's in there.. and Joe said he knew Sting was going to be there.. Joe got a warm up match from Nash to make sure he was ready.. he beat three opponents.. the sting story is part of something larger - a continuation of a story that is long term.. similra to the nWo...

Ending each show with Sting promos about the young guns is not enticing people to buy the PPVs. There is a reason why they call it the "go home" show. Yet the champion seems unconcerned with defending his title, and the three contenders seemed more concerned with other things than getting ready for their title shot. People notice things like this in this day and age. Back in the Attitude days, the final segment usually involved the main eventers for the PPVs rubbing elbows.

This one involved two guys who haven't wrestled in months (or years) who aren't even set for the PPV.

And nice job dodging the points about the tag champions and their contenders, along with the X-Division Champion and his contenders, being nowhere around in the final show before the PPV. But hey, we got a beauty pageant.

And for the Nth time, it was UFC's money success that helped MAKE it get mainstream coverage in the first place.

See above.

Sting/Jeff are part of the main story, and kurt/booker have addressed the match.. you have to understand the show and see that there is a bigger picture with teh fan interest is leading towards the actual story as well as the match. the outcome and the story is what people will be paying to see. You dont seem to grasp Ru$so's way of storytelling which sohws me that you're stuck in the "wrestling bubble"

Beer Money/LAX was on the previous show's taping - homicide returned to push the feud. Bashir has been feuding with Creed and has got into scuffles with Petey., Beauty pageant was to push taylor vs angelina and provide entertainment and character development - hell, helped draw a higher rating.

UFC: Ultimate Fighter helped them garner mainstream success. The article that was presented here showed that they were doing very well in buys but the show they got helped them do better and achieve mainstream success

--

There's nothing else to add regarding TV leading to PPV because Ru$so/TNA has and continues to push for everything... it's all opinion of whether it's leading to a match at the specific ppv, and you can't see the bigger picture that the story is the key

Hell, read GLenn's old column on the AJ joining Christian/Kurt thing - it was leading to a conclusion of the story.. while people bitched that it wasn't specific about a match. It's about more than a story

You want the typical "match builds" you watch WWE. Even Undertaker/Kane - that wasn't really specifc to a michaels/UT match even though there was hype for the match.. but it's part of a greater story

The PPV will have answers - and will continue the long term story.
 
Yep. Accentuate positive, hide negatives. That's more than just a Paul Heyman outlook. It's common sense. If a guy is not a very good speaker, then rather than throw him out there to speak, give him something to work with that he excels with. A hot chick that can talk, a manager, make his the workhorse in a tag team, a bodyguard gimmick if he's a big guy.

Case in point: I'll never understand why WWE had Khali as a wrestler and Daivari as a near full-time talker. Put Daivari in the ring and Khali as his bodyguard manservant. OK, maybe not the "manservant" part, but you get the point...

As for Sabin, I think he can cut a decent promo when he's allowed to show his snarky sarcastic side. Something I noticed when I met him in 2006, long before the MCMGs started.

This point to the letter is inarguable. The only problem is what is "cool" is open to interpretation.


I can very much attest to UFC fans being former wrestling fans. Heck there's a study out there that practically proves it, I just forget the link.

But I know two more guys at my work who love UFC. They used to watch wrestling a decade ago but it got "too silly" for them a few years back. Both of them were drawn to my computer wallpaper for Hard Justice 2007 (with Joe vs. Angle for the five title belts) and they seemed interested... until they heard about Angle in his skivvies and his "divorce"...


Not only that, but with all the attempts at "sports entertainment" on a show that is clearly nowhere near the budget range of WWE, it comes off as a cheap imitation.

I don't think I'll ever understand TNA's current mindset. WWE makes it no secret that they emphasize entertainment over wrestling. So to be an "alternative", TNA decides to emphasize entertainment over wrestling.

Take this past episode as evidence. The previous weeks, The Beautiful People get in Taylor Wilde's face, embarrass her by painting her face, and her big moment to keep things going... is to play drums in a beauty pageant...

Heck, just look at the title matches for the upcoming PPV.

X-Division - Where were any of the guys this week? The site says it's Petey vs. Creed vs. Bashir, but I had to go to the website to see that. Didn't Creed win the contenders match? So even when you lose you still get the title shot.

Tag Title - The Tag Title contestants are nowhere to be found. If they aren't even on TV, why should I care to pay to see them on Sunday?

World Title - Joe has four opponents, but how many of them had any time this week? Joe was more concerned with trash talking Sting, Angle and Booker were busy with Abyss & Morgan (who they aren't wrestling at the PPV), and Christian got about three minutes to talk about it after wrestling Abyss (who he isn't wrestling at the PPV).

Yet we have two talking segments from Sting (who isn't wrestling at the PPV last I checked), a Beauty Pageant from the Knockouts who said they weren't about lingerie and bikinis a few weeks ago ("that's for Divas"), and the final big moment of the show being Jeff Jarrett (who isn't wrestling at the PPV)


That was a great segment, and was given time to sink in, which helped make it great. They didn't go "TO THE BACK!!!!!!!" or instantly cut to a pretaped package to make you forget what just happened.


When you give fans 732 "swerves" they come to expect them, and thus don't mark for them because they're either conditioned to expect them, or are just numb to them.

a couple of points about your continued attempts to argue poorly. one, you need to quit bringing up stuff like the one guy that watched global impact and now you're talking about two guys at work. that's just weak as weak can be when that's what you try to back your points up with. and two, as for your 732 swerves comment, you're so right, because that certainly doesn't work for shows like Lost and 24.
 
a couple of points about your continued attempts to argue poorly. one, you need to quit bringing up stuff like the one guy that watched global impact and now you're talking about two guys at work. that's just weak as weak can be when that's what you try to back your points up with.
Since you aren't interested in anecdotal evidence, I shall seek out that article I mentioned earlier that pinpointed many UFC fans being essentially wrestling fans who grew out of wrestling.

and two, as for your 732 swerves comment, you're so right, because that certainly doesn't work for shows like Lost and 24.

But it's not working for your show, sir. That's the whole point. You've had the same team of writers for the last two years, along with the addition of Kurt Angle and Booker T, yet ratings are still in that same 1.0-1.1 area.
 
a couple of points about your continued attempts to argue poorly. one, you need to quit bringing up stuff like the one guy that watched global impact and now you're talking about two guys at work. that's just weak as weak can be when that's what you try to back your points up with. and two, as for your 732 swerves comment, you're so right, because that certainly doesn't work for shows like Lost and 24.

Poor minds think alike.. so he keeps bringing up people he talks to and hangs out with. I work at a place and some guy still brings up Austin driving the truck to the ring and nailing McMahon over the head with a bedpan. He thinks that is what made Austin the greatest wrestler ever haha

24 books more meaningless swerves than any other show. some good some bad. Russo in WCW 2000 booked way better swerves IMO.

As for UFC fans.. the guy who loved Austin "AT MY WORKPLACE" is a huge fan of UFC> People that grew out of wrestling are those that watched WWE and stopped watching. If you want to talk about guys you know. I'lll tell you that all my friends and peopel at workplaces don't watch wrestling anyhmore. One stopped watching immediately after McMahon/Helmsley. Yeah, people talk agbout UFC

I think as Glenns tated, you should blame the demise of wrestling more on WWE than TNA.. TNA isn't even a household name like WWF/E is.. People think wrestling is stupid.. but that doesn't mean they think the ATtitude era's content was stupid becasue these are probaly the same people that loved that content and understood that wrestling was a male soap opera. they're just enjoying today's entertainment that WWE is doing because they probably think it's poorly written, juvenile and stupid.

They dont know who wrote teh shows during attitude era and i'm sure if teh overall characters and storeis were edgy and done in a way that can make them go "damn, i haven't seen that before, now that's entertaining", OF COURSE these same individuals will watch the show and enjoy it...

I think WWE have just made everyone think wrestling is just lame and I think it's going to be very difficult to get people enjoying wrestling again, unless TNA anties up their direction and really gets noticed - they're at 1.0-1.1 for a while but I think if they continue doing edgy shows and getting the word out there (some way) the ratings will go up

but keep in mind when you think wrestling nowadays, peopel think of cheesy, lame, cartoony - SORTA LIKE TEH 80s CARTOON era . we're back to square one. We don't want to go even back to the 70s like a meltzer wants it... "let's focus on the belt and the wreslting again, duh.. four star match".. of course that's not going to work. I borrowed the flair dvd from the library and although it may have been great for people that thought wrestling was real in the early 80s, but Ric Flair vs Barry Windham, Harley Race and Dusty RHodes are some of the most boring shit i have seen in my entire life..

Meltzer and Keller probably call that shit "great in ring psychology" "five stars" or some bullshit like that i keep reading about on the internet.

We dont want to see that shit.. Beauty pageants "done well" are most likely going to get people stopping and checking it out than two fat old guys wrestling in their underwear fakely

--

as for creed, bashir, petey, beer money, and lax - TNA taped 3 shows in 2 days.. they can't put everyone on the show at one time if you noticed. I think they already pushed the stories the previous weeks. with 10-11 matches booked for a PPV, they need to push 5-6 on one show. If they did more of that and pushed 10 stories on one 2 hour show, i'm sure you'd go "too much happened, i can't remember what happened on the show, how are casual viewers supposed to follow and remember what happened - my brain hurts"

-

in regards to ratings in august 2006, they did consecutive .7s and i'm sure spike may have considered moving them to a shittier timeslot if that trend continued
 
Poor minds think alike.. so he keeps bringing up people he talks to and hangs out with. I work at a place and some guy still brings up Austin driving the truck to the ring and nailing McMahon over the head with a bedpan. He thinks that is what made Austin the greatest wrestler ever haha

24 books more meaningless swerves than any other show. some good some bad. Russo in WCW 2000 booked way better swerves IMO.

As for UFC fans.. the guy who loved Austin "AT MY WORKPLACE" is a huge fan of UFC> People that grew out of wrestling are those that watched WWE and stopped watching. If you want to talk about guys you know. I'lll tell you that all my friends and peopel at workplaces don't watch wrestling anyhmore. One stopped watching immediately after McMahon/Helmsley. Yeah, people talk agbout UFC
So your friend doesn't watch wrestling anymore, but watch UFC.

Thus in almost every way (for comparison) he is the same as my two friends at my work. They watched in the Attitude Era too.

Pot, meet Kettle.

This is my point to mentioning my personal experiences, Glenn. I'm not the only person with friends who used to watch wrestling but watch UFC now. Marty has just enforced that point.

As a whole, the big programming styles that worked ten years ago don't work now. That's why I don't think going for an Attitude Era style (with all the swerves, gimmicks, and "edginess") will work now. Especially when you look at the sheer number of shows now that are reality based. Realism is what's in now, because it helps people suspend their disbelief.

I think as Glenns tated, you should blame the demise of wrestling more on WWE than TNA.. TNA isn't even a household name like WWF/E is.. People think wrestling is stupid.. but that doesn't mean they think the ATtitude era's content was stupid becasue these are probaly the same people that loved that content and understood that wrestling was a male soap opera. they're just enjoying today's entertainment that WWE is doing because they probably think it's poorly written, juvenile and stupid.

They dont know who wrote teh shows during attitude era and i'm sure if teh overall characters and storeis were edgy and done in a way that can make them go "damn, i haven't seen that before, now that's entertaining", OF COURSE these same individuals will watch the show and enjoy it...

I think WWE have just made everyone think wrestling is just lame and I think it's going to be very difficult to get people enjoying wrestling again, unless TNA anties up their direction and really gets noticed - they're at 1.0-1.1 for a while but I think if they continue doing edgy shows and getting the word out there (some way) the ratings will go up
I don't think any sensible person is stating TNA as being responsible for a decline in wrestling. Of course WWE is to blame. They're the big dog. I don't think TNA is doing anything to revitalize things though.

Assuming all the friends in our examples are of similar age (20-30) that would mean they were in their teens during the Attitude Era. Besides the point that programming as a whole has changed since then, how many people still watch in their 20s what they watched in their teens and still enjoy it on the same level?

but keep in mind when you think wrestling nowadays, peopel think of cheesy, lame, cartoony - SORTA LIKE TEH 80s CARTOON era .
No, the general populace thinks of wrestling as low brow entertainment that is mystifying as to why people would watch it.

we're back to square one. We don't want to go even back to the 70s like a meltzer wants it... "let's focus on the belt and the wreslting again, duh.. four star match".. of course that's not going to work. I borrowed the flair dvd from the library and although it may have been great for people that thought wrestling was real in the early 80s, but Ric Flair vs Barry Windham, Harley Race and Dusty RHodes are some of the most boring shit i have seen in my entire life..

Meltzer and Keller probably call that shit "great in ring psychology" "five stars" or some bullshit like that i keep reading about on the internet.
I don't read Meltzer, but I would be surprised if he advocated a 70's style. Wrestling has to evolve and stay current, just like the rest of the entertainment industry.

as for creed, bashir, petey, beer money, and lax - TNA taped 3 shows in 2 days.. they can't put everyone on the show at one time if you noticed. I think they already pushed the stories the previous weeks. with 10-11 matches booked for a PPV, they need to push 5-6 on one show. If they did more of that and pushed 10 stories on one 2 hour show, i'm sure you'd go "too much happened, i can't remember what happened on the show, how are casual viewers supposed to follow and remember what happened - my brain hurts"
But like I said, the title matches have guys nowhere to be found in the final week. Did TNA ever stop and think that their main events are supposed to be the main selling point of a PPV? Now of course I'm sure they have, but you wouldn't be able to tell that from their show. And that's without getting into why a company called "Total Nonstop Action" would have a "beauty pageant" in the first place.

I'll just revert back to my previous statements about fluff like a beauty pageant being the launchpad, and bigger moments like Homicide's return being a "final week before" event.
 
Since you aren't interested in anecdotal evidence, I shall seek out that article I mentioned earlier that pinpointed many UFC fans being essentially wrestling fans who grew out of wrestling.



But it's not working for your show, sir. That's the whole point. You've had the same team of writers for the last two years, along with the addition of Kurt Angle and Booker T, yet ratings are still in that same 1.0-1.1 area.

in television, most writers are replaced when ratings decline. how are you the judge of what is working for the show? i buried another guy in this forum awhile back that thought he knew more about television network executives and their expectations for their network's ratings. if you think that spike tv should be dissatisfied with what the ratings of impact should be, then you're arguing your point in the wrong environment. try to contact spike officials and let them know that the writing team should be replaced for one of the higher rated shows on their network. as a matter of fact, why don't you review all of their shows for them and do a ratings analysis and tell them which writers should be replaced. and while you're at it, why don't you give some suggestions on possible replacements. i, for one, would like to hear from you on who you think should write impact.

and what exactly is your point that ufc fans used to be wrestling fans? i think that's pretty much understood by anyone with half a brain. i think a point could also be made that alot of boxing fans are now mma fans. it's real fighting. it's common sense.
 
Zandrax you have no point. You are saying people watch UFC now that used to watch Attitude era. The guy that watches UFC brought up his favourite Austin moments that stemmed from the ATtitude Era. I think he still watches WWE though, but this is one guy that is a wrestling fan.. but he loves the entertainment aspect done well.. Again, this is one guy

ANd I personally think the entertainment aspect of WWE is lame, compared to the ATtitude era and doing a similar formular of the attitude era.. not necessarily pure crash tv, but great characters and stories.. will bring peopel back

THe peopel that loved wrestling then knew it was fake. Read glenn's column on trying to pass wrestling off as real NOT working.

WHy would twists and turns not watch? For a weekly episodic series like 24, Lost, Prison Break, they emphasize on trying to swerve the audience and doing things in an unpredictable manner. Why watch a show that is totally predictable? I know if i could predict every story on 24, i"d stop watching.

I was 13 when the attitude era started. Keep in mind that people in the 18-34 demographic were talking about the edgy programming inw restling. I dont know how you can attract an 18-34 demographic by doing shitty lame ass "i want to kick your ass for that belt" promos for 2 hours straight

No, the general populace thinks of wrestling as low brow entertainment that is mystifying as to why people would watch it.

And your suggestions of doing Kurt Angle vs Joe stories 12 months a year will make them think different?

Your opinions on homicide and beauty pageant is just your opinion. here's my original post

as for creed, bashir, petey, beer money, and lax - TNA taped 3 shows in 2 days.. they can't put everyone on the show at one time if you noticed. I think they already pushed the stories the previous weeks. with 10-11 matches booked for a PPV, they need to push 5-6 on one show. If they did more of that and pushed 10 stories on one 2 hour show, i'm sure you'd go "too much happened, i can't remember what happened on the show, how are casual viewers supposed to follow and remember what happened - my brain hurts"

The people that were "in charge" in august 2006 when TNA was doing the worst programming ever. Sting and Jeff Jarrett would do lame ass 'deal or no deal' segments and Jeff would take the polygraph. PPVs were hyped poorly, matches/feuds didn't make any sense. This resulted in like 3 straight .7s. Vince Russo was brought back one month later and hasn't been kicked off creative. the only way he would be kicked off is due to politics and TNA beliving the shit they read on the internet.

As for ratings.. TNA doesn't have the advertising. I personally think their product at times are WAY better than wwe. Glenn said it best: WWE has lost 40% of their audience over the past 6 years. Making money or not due to other found revenue streams and due to their video library, thye have lost a SHITLOAD of potential of earning more money - if they had a 6.9 rating now vs the 3.2 ratings they get now.

TNA has pretty much maintained their audience and I would expect the numbers to climb as they have turned a profit.

i, for one, would like to hear from you on who you think should write impact.
He wants Jim Cornette, Jerry Jarrett, Paul Heyman. The internet seems to have a hard on for Paul Heyman. Dusty rhodes failed, Dutch Mantell can't write shit. and Scott D'amore is lackluster at best.

and what exactly is your point that ufc fans used to be wrestling fans? i think that's pretty much understood by anyone with half a brain.

Yeah, i just said that too. I think his point is "make wrestling more like UFC" - but i think you have already debated this argument much like I on the other board.. It's the same shitty arguments that piss me off because everyone like him talks the exact same way

ANd he likes bringing up the "replay" rating getting .4 in recent weeks as opposed to a .5. i also think during the olympics, the rating was a .89, and he said Russo needed to be fired. He also said for 3 straight weeks, the "overall rating" dropped. from like 1.08 to .95 or something..

I tehn brought up the WWF Attitude numbers for like July or may 1997 and it had a 3.4 to a 2.5 drop in four straight weeks. Would it have been a great idea to fire Russo then? Considering that he turned the company significantly around with one consistent direction 2 + years. He had no answer
 
Zandrax you have no point. You are saying people watch UFC now that used to watch Attitude era. The guy that watches UFC brought up his favourite Austin moments that stemmed from the ATtitude Era. I think he still watches WWE though, but this is one guy that is a wrestling fan.. but he loves the entertainment aspect done well.. Again, this is one guy

ANd I personally think the entertainment aspect of WWE is lame, compared to the ATtitude era and doing a similar formular of the attitude era.. not necessarily pure crash tv, but great characters and stories.. will bring peopel back
To be honest, one of the reasons I signed up for this board was this thread, so Glenn could see our contrast in opinion.

If UFC attracts people that "used to watch wrestling", than that means UFC and wrestling are attracting a similar demo. Thus I chuckle when the "one is real, one is fake" argument comes up. Sure, some people will just absolutely refuse to watch wrestling because "it's fake", but it's not about trying to "pass off" that it's real. It's about the age old motto of "suspension of disbelief". Sure, wrestling is "fake", but so was Buffy The Vampire Slayer.

THe peopel that loved wrestling then knew it was fake. Read glenn's column on trying to pass wrestling off as real NOT working.
Again, it's part of the reason I'm here. I'm sure Glenn's columns have attracted plenty of people to this board.

WHy would twists and turns not watch? For a weekly episodic series like 24, Lost, Prison Break, they emphasize on trying to swerve the audience and doing things in an unpredictable manner. Why watch a show that is totally predictable? I know if i could predict every story on 24, i"d stop watching.
I think I get what you're trying to say.

LOGICAL twists and turns, WHEN PACED RIGHT, work quite well.

Becoming unpredictable just for the sake of unpredictability alone is not necessarily a good thing. Anybody with 1/4 of a brain knew that Luke was going to blow up the Death Star/ The thing is that's what we WANTED to see. Nobody would expect to see blood fall out of the sky onto Luke's X-Wing and then have that fat guy blow up the Death Star while munching on KFC. Hey, it's not predictable so it must be a good idea!

The whole point is to dangle a carrot in front of the audience, and make them WANT to see something so bad that they will PAY to do so.

I was 13 when the attitude era started. Keep in mind that people in the 18-34 demographic were talking about the edgy programming inw restling. I dont know how you can attract an 18-34 demographic by doing shitty lame ass "i want to kick your ass for that belt" promos for 2 hours straight

And your suggestions of doing Kurt Angle vs Joe stories 12 months a year will make them think different?
Where have I said do the same Angle/Joe story for 12 months. This is your legendary assumptions kicking in that since I talk about wrestling on the web, I'm some Meltzer/Keller junkie that only regurgitates what they say.

The people that were "in charge" in august 2006 when TNA was doing the worst programming ever. Sting and Jeff Jarrett would do lame ass 'deal or no deal' segments and Jeff would take the polygraph. PPVs were hyped poorly, matches/feuds didn't make any sense. This resulted in like 3 straight .7s. Vince Russo was brought back one month later and hasn't been kicked off creative. the only way he would be kicked off is due to politics and TNA beliving the shit they read on the internet.
This would be relevant if I liked the segments you spoke of. Personally, TNA was doing OK in my opinion (not splendidly, but OK) until they put the belt back on Jarrett at Slammy 06. That turned off a LOT of people. I'm not saying game show segments would have helped, but it was putting a band aid on something that needed stitches.

As for ratings.. TNA doesn't have the advertising. I personally think their product at times are WAY better than wwe. Glenn said it best: WWE has lost 40% of their audience over the past 6 years. Making money or not due to other found revenue streams and due to their video library, thye have lost a SHITLOAD of potential of earning more money - if they had a 6.9 rating now vs the 3.2 ratings they get now.
And I have already proven that WWE makes more money based of live events than they did during the Attitude Era.

Is there more "potential" with higher ratings? Sure, but it's not guaranteed, and that has been my point since day one.

He wants Jim Cornette, Jerry Jarrett, Paul Heyman. The internet seems to have a hard on for Paul Heyman. Dusty rhodes failed, Dutch Mantell can't write shit. and Scott D'amore is lackluster at best.
This is the first thing you;ve said about me that's true in a while, though not necessarily all at once because if memory serves, Heyman and Cornette hate each other.

Out of those, I think Cornette is the best choice simply because he's already on staff. I no longer am interested in seeing Jerry book now that I am aware of his heart condition. Too much stress in a booking job.

Heyman would also be a great choice, but I doubt he would come with Russo AND Cornette already on board (purely my guess though).

That being said, I have never said that Cornette would bring monster ratings overnight. I DO think his style would attract much higher buyrates very quickly.

Yeah, i just said that too. I think his point is "make wrestling more like UFC" - but i think you have already debated this argument much like I on the other board.. It's the same shitty arguments that piss me off because everyone like him talks the exact same way
I don't get how "beauty pageants" judged by guy in a shark suit and a guy in a curry costume is supposed to attract anybody to spend $30 on a PPV.

ANd he likes bringing up the "replay" rating getting .4 in recent weeks as opposed to a .5. i also think during the olympics, the rating was a .89, and he said Russo needed to be fired. He also said for 3 straight weeks, the "overall rating" dropped. from like 1.08 to .95 or something..

7/24 1.11
7/31 1.05
8/7 0.96
8/14 0.87

And there were a few weeks where the replay rating went down to a .3, so thus the entire audience for the week was about 1.3, when before the total audience for the week was a 1.6-1.7.


I tehn brought up the WWF Attitude numbers for like July or may 1997 and it had a 3.4 to a 2.5 drop in four straight weeks. Would it have been a great idea to fire Russo then? Considering that he turned the company significantly around with one consistent direction 2 + years. He had no answer
And as I said, that first show in that series was an unopposed show because Nitro got pre-empted for basketball.
 
Ok tna ratings have been between .8 and 1.1 for 3 years now and in my opinion they need to make changes if they want to grow.

I like tna at the moment its great viewing I prefer it to wwe sometimes however I think if they are ever going to grow ratings wise somthing new and someone new needs to come along.

I am glad tna has suceeded in becoming a profitable company but I think its not living up to full potential which i believe they can get the ratings up here are just my thoughts on what they can do

I went to see a house show here in the uk in june and it was the best wrestling show ive seen live much better than the 5 or 6 wwe shows ive been to.

If tna could meet its live event presentation with its superb wrestling half way with a decent booker like a paul heyman who helped wwe quite a bit until politics forced him out I think tna could grow to mid to late 1,s he also knows how to market promotions from his experiance in growing ecw from the ground up his help would be the shot in the arm tna needs in my opinion.
 
Bottom line man.. ONe is real, one is fake. Go back 5-6 pages and read Glenn's reply for those that continue to debate UFC vs TNA/WWE.

And as I said, that first show in that series was an unopposed show because Nitro got pre-empted for basketball.

Can you explain the subsequent three shows that dropped the rating .6-.7? Would it make sense to rally to fire Russo then?

LOGICAL twists and turns, WHEN PACED RIGHT, work quite well.
It all comes down to opinion on what is a good twist and turn.. I see a lot of stupid twists in 24, although i see some good ones. I usually like Russo's twists and turns, but people online seem to always say "my brain hurts, and casual viewers are too stupid to understand that"

Where have I said do the same Angle/Joe story for 12 months. This is your legendary assumptions kicking in that since I talk about wrestling on the web, I'm some Meltzer/Keller junkie that only regurgitates what they say.
You have repeatedly stated that you want every PPV to be pushed the way Angle and Joe has been pushed during their first match becasue the first Angle TNA PPV match drew 60,000 buys and you said they did that well. You want every single feud to be done like that like Global Impact, yet you fail to realize that TNA tried to do two consecutive rematches for Joe/ANgle due to teh good buzz. but part of the creative team challenge to do it in a way that's different yet still intriguign. If people have paid to see a huge Joe/Angle match and Angle's first TNA PPV, how on earth are they going to justify paying to see a rematch to one they already just saw. That is teh creative challenge, and you slate TNA for not doing as well for subsequent PPVs when they made a strong effort.

If you do every main event title match the same way it was done on a previous PPV, do you honestly think you would retain the same 60,000 people who paid? It's all part of the creative debate and nobody has the answer to consistently retain those paid viewers. The best thing to do is increase your fanbase to increase potential revenue in all streams: Merchandise, live shows, PPV buys, ratings...

And you do repeat almost everything Keller/Meltzer say. You go on the boards and continue to use Keller's "expert analysis" to breakdown the quarterly ratings. Again, I'd love to see you or Keller analyze Prison Break, 24, Lost, Desperate Housewives and determine solely based on the stories which characters/stories are turning people off in droves.

This would be relevant if I liked the segments you spoke of. Personally, TNA was doing OK in my opinion (not splendidly, but OK) until they put the belt back on Jarrett at Slammy 06. That turned off a LOT of people. I'm not saying game show segments would have helped, but it was putting a band aid on something that needed stitches.
The .7 straight shows were the same booking team that helped them get that 1.15 rating hyping Slammiversary. The relevance here is they hired Russo back and you continue to slate the guys' writing in every way possible.

Answer this question. Have the shows improved exponentially in terms of pushing for the PPV and creatively now, compared to 2006 (pre september). THis is an opinionated question.

And I have already proven that WWE makes more money based of live events than they did during the Attitude Era.

Is there more "potential" with higher ratings? Sure, but it's not guaranteed, and that has been my point since day one.

Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that they're not guaranteed to make more money if they were doing 6.8s compared to what they're doing now 3.2?

That being said, I have never said that Cornette would bring monster ratings overnight. I DO think his style would attract much higher buyrates very quickly.

Okay, so you honestly think with Cornette booking, that the buyrates would increase? How much do you think the ratings/buyrates/revenue would increase if Cornette replaced Russo. In addition, why would McMahon pick Russo over Cornette during the attitude era pre-stages when Russo asked Vinny Mac to pick one

I don't get how "beauty pageants" judged by guy in a shark suit and a guy in a curry costume is supposed to attract anybody to spend $30 on a PPV.
#1, it was an entertainment segment to entice viewers to watch the next week, and it was to further the feud with Angelina Love and Taylor Wilde. It was 10 minutes of a 1.5 hour show to hype a story that didn't have too much hype the previous weeks. What is so hard to get about it? People are entertained..

You like to say Rock and Sock segment that drew 8.1 didn't draw any money. Yet Rock and Foley were the highest merchandise sellers during that era. People loved the segment and if they loved it, they'll talk about it, if they talk about it and wwf stops by, they're more likely to attend the show, buy a shirt, and make them more money.

What's so difficult to grasp about this concept? Get out of the "Wrestling bubble" and try and understand the concept that not every single damn thing on the show has to lead to a one on one wrestling match.. (even though TNA's shows right now for the most part lead to one)
 
i'm going to make a statement. if tna's success is going to be judged on their numbers, than paul heyman should never be mentioned as a potential replacement. if he is, and we're judging bookers by the numbers, than you need to look at a ratings analysis of his booking stints. because if you come to the conclusion that he's better than tna's current writing team, then you are an imbecile. don't even try to argue this point with me, because you will be crucified, especially if you don't know the actual numbers. and i'll squash the politics argument right here and now. both heyman and russo worked in the exact same booking environment under vince mcmahon. you can't logically make an argument that one succeeded and one failed for different reasons. and besides, russo is not head of creative, he's part of the writing team, and he's not responsible for alot of the stuff that u assume he is.

and zandrax, if you actually signed up for this board to get jobbed out by me in our "discussions," then i would suggest that you put ALOT more time into researching what we're talking about besides referencing a couple guys at work. i don't think i can count on five figures the amount of guys that can compete with me in a debate of the pro wrestling product. you're certainly not even on the wait list to be one of them.
 
i'm going to make a statement. if tna's success is going to be judged on their numbers, than paul heyman should never be mentioned as a potential replacement. if he is, and we're judging bookers by the numbers, than you need to look at a ratings analysis of his booking stints. because if you come to the conclusion that he's better than tna's current writing team, then you are an imbecile. don't even try to argue this point with me, because you will be crucified, especially if you don't know the actual numbers. and i'll squash the politics argument right here and now. both heyman and russo worked in the exact same booking environment under vince mcmahon. you can't logically make an argument that one succeeded and one failed for different reasons. and besides, russo is not head of creative, he's part of the writing team, and he's not responsible for alot of the stuff that u assume he is.

and zandrax, if you actually signed up for this board to get jobbed out by me in our "discussions," then i would suggest that you put ALOT more time into researching what we're talking about besides referencing a couple guys at work. i don't think i can count on five figures the amount of guys that can compete with me in a debate of the pro wrestling product. you're certainly not even on the wait list to be one of them.

owned.

Do you know how many people have a hard-on for Paul Heyman on the Internet. I dont know why till this day. I'm guessing it's due to the hardcore matches they had to related to the hicks that showed up at the events.

yeah, Russo isn't the main guy behind TNA, although if i had to predict, the shows have his flow and style (at times). I wish he could be head of creative though.. I wonder what storylines (controversial) he would write if he was.

he signed up because i made a post on the other boards about some of the posts you made regarding arguments we have had for a very long time.. most couldn't reply. they all said you would get owned if you went on that board. I told them to sign up here and debate you if they wanted to. zandrax thinks you'd get schooled..

he probably made up those guys at work because he spends 15 hours on wrestling forums a day (8,200 posts since march of 2007 on the other forums) and he'd reply within 10 minutes of me posting at ANY time of day and night.. i dont think he interacts with any other human being tbh
 
Bottom line man.. ONe is real, one is fake. Go back 5-6 pages and read Glenn's reply for those that continue to debate UFC vs TNA/WWE.

Can you explain the subsequent three shows that dropped the rating .6-.7? Would it make sense to rally to fire Russo then?
We've been over this before, there were no record lows and nothing terribly out of the ordinary. Like I said, they got a ratings bump do to a few unopposed shows while Nitro was pre-empted for basketball. Thus those higher rated shows aren't really valid arguments for ratings analysis.

It all comes down to opinion on what is a good twist and turn.. I see a lot of stupid twists in 24, although i see some good ones. I usually like Russo's twists and turns, but people online seem to always say "my brain hurts, and casual viewers are too stupid to understand that"

You have repeatedly stated that you want every PPV to be pushed the way Angle and Joe has been pushed during their first match becasue the first Angle TNA PPV match drew 60,000 buys and you said they did that well. You want every single feud to be done like that like Global Impact, yet you fail to realize that TNA tried to do two consecutive rematches for Joe/ANgle due to teh good buzz. but part of the creative team challenge to do it in a way that's different yet still intriguign. If people have paid to see a huge Joe/Angle match and Angle's first TNA PPV, how on earth are they going to justify paying to see a rematch to one they already just saw. That is teh creative challenge, and you slate TNA for not doing as well for subsequent PPVs when they made a strong effort.
I have never said that everything should be "exactly like Global Impact" you are either terribly misreading my posts or you are being deliberately deceitful. I have said that there is some inspiration that can be taken from Global Impact. It wouldn't work as a weekly formula though because it was essentially a documentary.

If you do every main event title match the same way it was done on a previous PPV, do you honestly think you would retain the same 60,000 people who paid? It's all part of the creative debate and nobody has the answer to consistently retain those paid viewers. The best thing to do is increase your fanbase to increase potential revenue in all streams: Merchandise, live shows, PPV buys, ratings...
"Inspired by" and "exactly like" are two different things that you fail to distinguish between.

And you do repeat almost everything Keller/Meltzer say. You go on the boards and continue to use Keller's "expert analysis" to breakdown the quarterly ratings. Again, I'd love to see you or Keller analyze Prison Break, 24, Lost, Desperate Housewives and determine solely based on the stories which characters/stories are turning people off in droves.
I have posted Keller analysis, yes. I don't always agree with it but I have read it.

It's no secret that Meltzer had some weird Vendetta against TNA a while back. But for the record I have never subscribed to Meltzer, nor do I intend to. I have listened to his show, but I do NOT take what he says as gold. The guy is a journalist in charge of selling newsletters. By that very nature he will sensationalize things to sell more issues. I would literally laugh at his weekly evidence that TNA would be dead in 90 days. That's where that joke started.

The .7 straight shows were the same booking team that helped them get that 1.15 rating hyping Slammiversary. The relevance here is they hired Russo back and you continue to slate the guys' writing in every way possible.

Answer this question. Have the shows improved exponentially in terms of pushing for the PPV and creatively now, compared to 2006 (pre september). THis is an opinionated question.
No, not in my opinion. I know we will disagree, but I haven't truly been gung-ho for the TNA product in a while.

Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that they're not guaranteed to make more money if they were doing 6.8s compared to what they're doing now 3.2?
There is no guarantees. A higher possibility? Sure. But there is no static connection between ratings and buyrates.

Okay, so you honestly think with Cornette booking, that the buyrates would increase? How much do you think the ratings/buyrates/revenue would increase if Cornette replaced Russo.
First off, I have long since been advocating a replacement of the entire[/b] booking team. Not just Russo. Jeff Jarrett is a valuable in ring talent and if I understand things right works gruelingly on the business end of things. He is vital to the company, but I haven't seen any gripping main event angle under his watch since arguably the Kings Of Wrestling.

In addition, why would McMahon pick Russo over Cornette during the attitude era pre-stages when Russo asked Vinny Mac to pick one
For starters, Cornette has always had a fear of flying, so having him at weekly tapings is difficult. I'm not going to argue that McMahon made the wrong choice. But keep in mind Cornette still worked as an eye for talent for McMahon for years to come in OVW. Without him, it could be argued that WWE might not have gotten John Cena, Batista, and Randy Orton.

#1, it was an entertainment segment to entice viewers to watch the next week, and it was to further the feud with Angelina Love and Taylor Wilde. It was 10 minutes of a 1.5 hour show to hype a story that didn't have too much hype the previous weeks. What is so hard to get about it? People are entertained..

You like to say Rock and Sock segment that drew 8.1 didn't draw any money. Yet Rock and Foley were the highest merchandise sellers during that era. People loved the segment and if they loved it, they'll talk about it, if they talk about it and wwf stops by, they're more likely to attend the show, buy a shirt, and make them more money.

What's so difficult to grasp about this concept? Get out of the "Wrestling bubble" and try and understand the concept that not every single damn thing on the show has to lead to a one on one wrestling match.. (even though TNA's shows right now for the most part lead to one)

The only one in a bubble here is you. Only you are in a "Russo Bubble". Every facet of your argument deals with "Russo got high ratings ten years ago".

But times have changed.

Well, Russo got high ratings in the Attitude Era.

That style of programming isn't as appealing any more.

Russo got high ratings in the Attitude Era!

TNA's most praised and watched PPVs are ones that have had a strong wrestling focus going into them.

BUT VINCE RUSSO GOT HIGH RATINGS TEN YEARS AGO!...
 
i'm going to make a statement. if tna's success is going to be judged on their numbers, than paul heyman should never be mentioned as a potential replacement. if he is, and we're judging bookers by the numbers, than you need to look at a ratings analysis of his booking stints. because if you come to the conclusion that he's better than tna's current writing team, then you are an imbecile.
I have already said that I do not think ratings would be effected, especially early on. I do think it would lead to higher buyrates, thus an increased profit for the company. And isn't that what this is all about?

Please don't misquote what I didn't say. I never said Cornette or Heyman would bring in huge ratings.

don't even try to argue this point with me, because you will be crucified, especially if you don't know the actual numbers. and i'll squash the politics argument right here and now. both heyman and russo worked in the exact same booking environment under vince mcmahon. you can't logically make an argument that one succeeded and one failed for different reasons. and besides, russo is not head of creative, he's part of the writing team, and he's not responsible for alot of the stuff that u assume he is.
Again, where have I place any blame on Russo? I know he's part of a team. I have been advocating a new team.

and zandrax, if you actually signed up for this board to get jobbed out by me in our "discussions," then i would suggest that you put ALOT more time into researching what we're talking about besides referencing a couple guys at work. i don't think i can count on five figures the amount of guys that can compete with me in a debate of the pro wrestling product. you're certainly not even on the wait list to be one of them.
I think our views on what an entertaining product is will differ of course.
 
There is no guarantees. A higher possibility? Sure. But there is no static connection between ratings and buyrates.

I asked if you think they'd be making more money with a 6.8 rating vs 3.2

The ratings Russo got 9 years ago have not been matched since.

TNA's most praised and watched PPVs are ones that have had a strong wrestling focus going into them.
Are you talking about online praise? Because you can say the exact same praise was given to the wrestling focused ones thorughout the past 3 decades on the dirtsheets....

I have already said that I do not think ratings would be effected, especially early on. I do think it would lead to higher buyrates, thus an increased profit for the company. And isn't that what this is all about?

Russo vs Heyman in WWE. Who brought in the higher buyrate/rating? Certainly not Heyman

So you would replace the current team with Heyman and/or Cornette and think the buys would increase exponentially with no visible increase in the rating? I'm definitely going to hire you to lead TNA to mainstream success
 
owned.

Do you know how many people have a hard-on for Paul Heyman on the Internet. I dont know why till this day. I'm guessing it's due to the hardcore matches they had to related to the hicks that showed up at the events.

yeah, Russo isn't the main guy behind TNA, although if i had to predict, the shows have his flow and style (at times). I wish he could be head of creative though.. I wonder what storylines (controversial) he would write if he was.

he signed up because i made a post on the other boards about some of the posts you made regarding arguments we have had for a very long time.. most couldn't reply. they all said you would get owned if you went on that board. I told them to sign up here and debate you if they wanted to. zandrax thinks you'd get schooled..

he probably made up those guys at work because he spends 15 hours on wrestling forums a day (8,200 posts since march of 2007 on the other forums) and he'd reply within 10 minutes of me posting at ANY time of day and night.. i dont think he interacts with any other human being tbh

Yeah, and you lying about what I say had nothing to do with it...
 
owned.

Do you know how many people have a hard-on for Paul Heyman on the Internet. I dont know why till this day. I'm guessing it's due to the hardcore matches they had to related to the hicks that showed up at the events.
Marty, Why do you admire Russo so much? cause you love his writing right?

Well, People like Heyman cause of his writing and how he made ECW seem so different than other wrestling companies at the time. How hard is that to understand?

I know you have seen very little ECW or you would realize ECW wasn't just all hardcore matches... It had everything.. Hardcore matches, techinal matches, a hybrid of both, gimmick matches, storylines, unique characters.. sound familar?
 
Heyman is the most overrated writer in the wrestling business. You talk about Russo being only about Sex and Violence, Heyman brings that to another level. Russo actually can write a story.

Heyman couldn't do much. He was solid about creating characters but the storylines of ECW sucked. The only ones that were good were made up by the wrestlers (Raven, Brother Ray etc)
 
As for my first post, I would like to say that I really do mean that I know more than Disco when it comes to wrestling and well also about life. First off, how can you question Paul Heyman's brilliance when he took a tiny indy promotion and turned it into a national phenomenon. A phenomenon that still exists today under the umbrella of the power machine WWE. It was Paul Heyman who made the call to bring up John Cena from OVW as Heyman stated in a recent UK Sun column. It was Paul Heyman who made unknowns into stars only to be cherry picked by WWE and WCW during the monday night wars. It was Paul Heyman's innovative ideas that became the WWF Attitude Era. Vince Russo on the other hand had some good ideas that stuck on the wall and the majority of the rest that didn't stick. Russo didn't have a Vince McMahon in WCW to weed out the bad ones that made it onto WCW TV. Now how about we do a little math shall we: Russo+Ferrara+McMahon=Success, Russo+Ferrara-McMahon=Failure, Russo+Mantel+Jarrett=Failure, class dismissed for the day.
 
this is probably one of the most typical and stupidest posts i have ever read. "national phenomenon"? Are you kidding me? They drew 500 people in their shows.. and had a little cult following when wrestling was hot. He booked some good shows for smackdown but to credit this guy for the fuckin attitude era is just plain ******ed

Russo never watched ECW. He liked some of the stuff Bischoff came up with in WCW, but never took ECW seriously.

You're honestly an idiot when Russo took WWF to success and ECW is the company that is out of business. Why so many online marks have a hard-on on Paul Heyman is beyond me, because Russo is just a much better overall writer that marketed more to the mainstream audience while Heyman just marked to the trash that showed up at his bingo halls.

Here's the real equation.

Russo + McMahon = 6.8 rating. Mcmahon - Russo = 3.2
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
174,851
Messages
3,300,884
Members
21,726
Latest member
chrisxenforo
Back
Top