Not a popular subject: John Cena - who has he surpassed in Greatest of All Time list?

[Dave]

So, so many people... With me being an All Star, I was asked to create a list for ranking every superstar past and present. And whilst I don't have a huge knowledge of really old school wrestlers, I have John Cena way, way up the list of the all time greats. Maybe he isn't the best technical wrestler we have ever seen but the impact he has made in the WWE and the wrestling world is up there with Hulk Hogan, The Rock and Stone Cold. There is no doubt about it. And you try to doubt it, it's pretty clear that you simply hate him and his position in the WWE.

Here is the top 10 I came up with...

Hulk Hogan
The Rock
Stone Cold
The Undertaker
Shawn Michaels
Triple H
John Cena
Bret Hart
Ric Flair
Kurt Angle

That's not in any real order to be honest. But for me, it's as close to an objective list that I can come up. Pardon my ignorance for some of the great who came before the territorial Era etc.

 

[The Sychopath]

So, so many people... With me being an All Star, I was asked to create a list for ranking every superstar past and present. And whilst I don't have a huge knowledge of really old school wrestlers, I have John Cena way, way up the list of the all time greats. Maybe he isn't the best technical wrestler we have ever seen but the impact he has made in the WWE and the wrestling world is up there with Hulk Hogan, The Rock and Stone Cold. There is no doubt about it. And you try to doubt it, it's pretty clear that you simply hate him and his position in the WWE.

Here is the top 10 I came up with...

Hulk Hogan
The Rock
Stone Cold
The Undertaker
Shawn Michaels
Triple H
John Cena
Bret Hart
Ric Flair
Kurt Angle

That's not in any real order to be honest. But for me, it's as close to an objective list that I can come up. Pardon my ignorance for some of the great who came before the territorial Era etc.

I get you just listed mainly modern era guys. But Savage should be in your list if Hogan is on there. I don't view Triple H & Kurt Angle as elite wrestlers in the same tier as Hogan, Austin, Flair or Rock. Triple H & Angle in my opinion are grouped in with guys like Jericho, Orton, Punk, & Edge.

 

[Dave]

I get you just listed mainly modern era guys. But Savage should be in your list if Hogan is on there. I don't view Triple H & Kurt Angle as elite wrestlers in the same tier as Hogan, Austin, Flair or Rock. Triple H & Angle in my opinion are grouped in with guys like Jericho, Orton, Punk, & Edge.

I guess that's the thing about wrestling lists like these ones, it's completely objective. And more often that now, it's a little subjective too. For me, Triple H is my favourite wrestler and has been the perennial wrestler for almost two decades. And whilst I agree that most people will say that Triple H doesn't belong there, I disagree. A multi time world champion who has literally did it all in terms of championships, and who has stayed in the main event for over a decade. Like I said, it's a personal choice.

That said, I had Macho man at number 11 in my list, beating out Kurt Angle. But the more I think about it, the more I feel as they Angle deserves to be there. Again, it's all about what I feel, as most people will be guilty of.

 

[L@RISANO]

Since everyone is doing G.O.A.T lists.. I'll do one for the heck of it:

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Stone Cold Steve Austin
3. the Rock
4. John Cena
5. Ric Flair
6. Andre the Giant
7. the Undertaker
8. Bret Hart
9. Randy Savage
10. Shawn Michaels


At the end of the day, these lists are subjective, and honestly, only the top 3 at this point seems to be 'set in stone' amongst the majority with Ric Flair also being in most people's top 5.
With regards to John Cena, I do feel that since he is still very much prominent in programming at this time, he will divide opinion moreso. Eventually, it will be a case of "Absence makes the heart grow fonder", and he will take his rightful place(lMO) alongside 3 guys that opened WrestleMania 30 in that heart-warming segment.

 

[OYDK]

I'm not gonna list my top ten... I don't really feel like getting challenged on my opinions today, but I will say, John Cena cracks the top 5 for me. Not because he's my favorite or any particular reason like that, but I feel he's earned that spot due to his ranking as one of the 4 "faces of WWE history" (which gives you an indication of my top 4...). John Cena will always be related to WWE, whether it be 10 years down the road or 100. People are going to look back, and the 2 names that will pop up when they think of wrestling will be Hulk Hogan and John Cena imo. Just think of how big you have to become to be compared to Hulk Hogan in a wrestling sense.

It's all a matter of perspective right now. We've seen Cena for so long that his shtick has become natural and even stale to us, but once he's gone I think people will look back and think, "damn that guy was REALLY good."

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I put Cena at 3rd all time.

Hogan, obviously, moved the sport to never before seen heights.

Austin, saved the WWE.

I put him ahead of Rock because with Rock, WWE was already climbing. How much more did he really bring it? Not far. Plus Rock was on top from very late 1999 to early 2001 before leaving for movies. So even if you do think that Rock did more for the business (he didn't), that's only 1 1/2 years. That's nothing compared to Cena's 12.

You also have to think of the other things they've done. WWE's reputation was DESTROYED after the Attitude Era. People saw wrestling as white trash television. Mostly rightfully so. Cena brought it back to, whether people like it or not, a family entertainment.

WWE's reputation is a lot better now than it was in 2000. A lot of that is John Cena.

 

[Wald]

Since people started doing top ten all-time lists I'll throw up my own of the Wrestlemania Era:

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Steve Austin
3. The Rock

big distance down to number four

4. Ric Flair
5. John Cena
6. Bret Hart
7. Randy Savage
8. The Undertaker
9. Shawn Michaels
10. Sting

I missed Andre's heyday and really only started watching in the Mega Powers year after he had retired but if I were including him he'd be ahead of Flair

 

[Hem]

Cena is top 5 for sure. I'd say he's surpassed HBK, HHH, Bret, Sting, Warrior, Bruno, Savage, and so on but I don't see him surpassing The Rock, Ric Flair, Stone Cold Steve Austin or Hulk Hogan.

 

[Supreme Knowledge]

I'll take a stab at this one...Easy, 2000 was the most profitable and popular year in WWE history, and it was mainly due to The Rock, who was the undisputed face of the company from late 1999 through at least early 2001. Go back and look at the numbers when Rock was in his prime compared to 2002-present for Cena, or better yet, 2005-present, when Cena was truly on top as the man. There is no comparison.

Even with the huge advantage in longevity that Cena has over The Rock, Hogan, Austin, and Rock destroy him when you're talking about mainstream impact, crossover ability, pure celebrity, and money drawn (the most important factor of all).

Two quick semi-related notes here: First, no one ever talks about this, but Cena's world title reigns don't mean as much as those that came before September 2, 2002 and after December 15, 2013 because having two world titles in the company for more than 11 years was a complete joke and totally dilutes everyone's title reigns from that period. He can get to 20 title reigns, and Flair, Triple H and Hogan's title reigns are still way more impressive and impactful.

Second, I love how many people, even former stars in the business like Bret Hart, Roddy Piper, Jim Ross, etc., and a ton of fans, talk about how much the business has grown in the past 10-15 years. Um, no it hasn't. Financially, it's regressed and isn't nearly as big as it was from 1998-2000. From mid-2000 to the present, WWE has been in a constant state of gradual and sometimes rapid freefall, and who has been the captain of the sinking ship during the bulk of that time period? You guessed it, Frank Stallone. lol no but seriously, John Cena has been the main guy in an awful period in wrestling history, both content-wise and financially.

You gave absolutely no justification or reasoning for Why the Rock in one year is better than Cena in 12. It was a comment out of thin air with no merit behind it. If you make such a huge statement, then you need to provide the reasoning, we shouldn't have to search for numbers. I never shot down what you said, I was interested in how you could make such an assessment. The Rock in 2000 alone does not diminish Cena in 12 years, lol, not even close.

 

[Supreme Knowledge]

Since everyone is doing G.O.A.T lists.. I'll do one for the heck of it:

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Stone Cold Steve Austin
3. the Rock
4. John Cena
5. Ric Flair
6. Andre the Giant
7. the Undertaker
8. Bret Hart
9. Randy Savage
10. Shawn Michaels


At the end of the day, these lists are subjective, and honestly, only the top 3 at this point seems to be 'set in stone' amongst the majority with Ric Flair also being in most people's top 5.
With regards to John Cena, I do feel that since he is still very much prominent in programming at this time, he will divide opinion moreso. Eventually, it will be a case of "Absence makes the heart grow fonder", and he will take his rightful place(lMO) alongside 3 guys that opened WrestleMania 30 in that heart-warming segment.

We didn't make a GOAT list really, we are just basing it off of Popularity and effect to the business. If it were my GOAT list, some of the top guys wouldn't be on, or probably near the very bottom.

 

[Messiah]

He would likely be in my top 5.

1. Bruno Sammartino
2. Hulk Hogan
3. Steve Austin
4. John Cena
5. Andre the Giant

 

[grantedisme]

In my mind, I kinda differentiate the stars as "wrestlers" and "celebrities". Either way, Hogan is at the top of the list for absurd mainstream appeal and how he was so crucial in the building of the wrestling industry from the ground up. After that, it gets a little complicated...

I see Cena (no I don't) as a hybrid of Stone Cold and The Rock regarding the two arbitrary categories I have defined. Cena shares with Austin that he has kept the industry afloat (though to a lesser extent than Stone Cold) and seems to have a deep respect for it (more than The Rock). Cena shares with The Rock that he has mainstream appeal (although obviously to a lesser extent, but way more than Austin) and appeals more to children than adults with his promos.

As WWE performers:
1. Hogan
2. Austin
3. Cena
4. Sammartino
5. Flair
5. Sting
6. Undertaker
7. HBK
8. Triple H
9. The Rock
10. Lesnar

As celebrities:
1. Hogan
2. The Rock
3. Cena
4. Lesnar
5. Triple H
6. Sammartino
7. Austin
8. The Miz
9. Vader
10. David Arquette

 

[MCMG]

I find it difficult to rank Cena above The Rock but Cena is top four. Where he has taken the WWE is amazing and no-one else could have done that. I'm sure Vince is very grateful for Cena's character and work ethic.

As a draw Cena has delivered and has done for a ridiculously long time. His longevity is remarkable. Also factor in his merch sales and you get the idea of how big he is. His promos are top notch and so his it work in the ring. How many guys has such a list of great feuds and matches, not many. There is no question he belongs near the top.

 

[Slyfox696]

The only worker who can definitevely claim to be above Cena is Hogan. Only Hogan can match the length of time John Cena has been the #1 draw in wrestling and even Hogan can't match the number of appearances Cena has made in front of a national/worldwide audience.

Austin and Rock were both great, but they simply did not have longevity. Furthermore, they were over in what was probably the easiest time in wrestling history to be over. That's not to take anything away from their greatness, only to show why John Cena can easily be seen to be on their level.

It's hard to say, because Cena doesn't seem close to being finished in wrestling. But, as of now, only Hogan can clearly be shown to be ahead of John Cena and even that line of distinction is starting to fade.

 

[CharlesKane]

I'm not the biggest Cena fan but I considered this for a long time before I came to a conclusion.
My 3 big knocks on Cena
1. A character staler then month old underwear
2. He isn't great at elevating the people he works with because he never treats anyone as a threat, just as a punchline for corny jokes.
3. His short matches are beyond formulaic. Don't get me wrong in a 20-30 minute match, the dude can go with the best of them but a 10 min, forget it, it's the same every time.

Where I landed was outside of the top 5 but not as a slam in the least, it'it's a tough list.
1. Hogan (Oh how I wish it wasn't)
2. Andre (The biggest draw in wrestling history, the guy was the first true mainstream pro wrestler and he could go in the ring, don't let the last year's fool you)
3 and 4. Rock Austin side by side
5. Bruno (Nobody was more legit than Bruno in the pre WWF era)
6. Flair (NWA/WCW would have been out of business without him, he was their draw and he made dozens of guys along the way)
7. Cena

 

[BillAlfonsos_Whistle]

This thread shouldn't even be about Cena it should be about Lesnar. Especially after Mania when it becomes apparent he is gonna shatter CM Punks modern day title reign streak.


But anyways...realistically Cena deserves to be at the bottom of the top 10 of all time list around where guys like HHH fall IMO. By the way I see a lot of lists without Shawn Micheals on them which is utterly laughable seeing as he is the #1 in-ring talent in the history of the WWE.

 

[Supreme Knowledge]

This thread shouldn't even be about Cena it should be about Lesnar. Especially after Mania when it becomes apparent he is gonna shatter CM Punks modern day title reign streak.


But anyways...realistically Cena deserves to be at the bottom of the top 10 of all time list around where guys like HHH fall IMO. By the way I see a lot of lists without Shawn Micheals on them which is utterly laughable seeing as he is the #1 in-ring talent in the history of the WWE.

Shawn Micheals did not have anywhere as close of impact on the industry as most of the top guys. As far as in ring work, #1? Nope. Kurt Angle, Bret Hart, and Chris Benoit are all better than Michaels in the ring. Chris Jericho, and Eddie Guerrero are also in the mix. Where would Shawn rank? I'm not sure, but certainly not top 3.

 

[Stone Cold Tea]

Cena is right up there in terms of greatest ever. Pretty soon it'll be Cena and Hogan ( and I hate Hulk Hogan). The pure timescale on which he has been the face of the industry is astounding. He has surpassed the faces of the Attitude Era and New Generations Era combined.

If you were to build an ideal pro wrestler you would build John Cena. Great look, great mainstream appeal, charismatic and when it comes to delivering in the ring he delivers.

People I speak to who don't know pro wrestling know who John Cena is. The only other 2 people you can say that for are The Rock and Hulk Hogan.

My top 10 would be

Hulk Hogan/ The Rock
John Cena
Steve Austin
Undertaker
Brock Lesnar
HHH
Kurt Angle
Shawn Michaels
Randy Orton

I'm only including wrestlers I got to see growing up ( Hogan been the exception as I would be foolish to not understand his impact) so my lift will be vastly different to others. I just dn't feel I can justify offering an opinion and listing people I didn't have the opportunity to see.

 

[MoscBn]

Cena is actually my 3rd favourite wreslter all around, just behind HBK and Jericho. Trough in a more "cold-head" list, he is 4th or 5th, depending in where you rank Flair. Trough I'd put him over The Rock on my personal list, since I feel he is heavily, heavily over rated.

 

[rge2010]

When Cena is done in the business he will be talked about in the same breath as Hogan, Rock and Austin.

Cena has stayed at the top a lot longer than these gents ever did and he has carried WWE on its back during some real tough periods. Hogan, Austin, Rock had it very easy compared to Cena.

Hart, Michaels, Taker, Foley, Trips were all top top talent but were never 'the man' like Cena. That is the top and bottom of it.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Cena has stayed at the top a lot longer than these gents ever did and he has carried WWE on its back during some real tough periods. Hogan, Austin, Rock had it very easy compared to Cena.

I disagree Cena was the top when the WWE virtually had no competition from other Wrestling promotions. Hogan didn't have it easy he was tasked to take wrestling to the mainstream, Austin was on top when WCW was still beating WWF, and The Rock become the face of the WWE when there was still competition.

 

[Wald]

Cena has stayed at the top a lot longer than these gents ever did and he has carried WWE on its back during some real tough periods. Hogan, Austin, Rock had it very easy compared to Cena.

Yeah but Cena hasn't been able to grow the business like those three did. In fact it has been on a downward trend since Cena become the top dog. I don't blame him for that because I think without him WWE ratings would be a lot worse but it still doesn't mask the fact he simply isn't as a big a draw as Hogan, Rock or Austin.

Some graphs to back that up

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/avgbuild.png

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ratings1-e1426893552633.png

 

[Slyfox696]

Yeah but Cena hasn't been able to grow the business like those three did. In fact it has been on a downward trend since Cena become the top dog. I don't blame him for that because I think without him WWE ratings would be a lot worse but it still doesn't mask the fact he simply isn't as a big a draw as Hogan, Rock or Austin.

Some graphs to back that up

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/avgbuild.png

http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ratings1-e1426893552633.png

Using ratings to make a point about the business is a pointless endeavor, as there are hundreds upon hundreds of channels now, not to mention DVR, growth of Internet spoilers, Internet streaming, the Network, etc.

You'll need a different argument.

 

[Wald]

Using ratings to make a point about the business is a pointless endeavor, as there are hundreds upon hundreds of channels now, not to mention DVR, growth of Internet spoilers, Internet streaming, the Network, etc.

You'll need a different argument.

Well I could argue that DVR, internet streaming, the Network etc. have only affected it in the past few years, those graphs show that business started declining throughout Cena's run on top. If we take 2005 as being the definitive time when Cena was definitely the top guy you can see that interest grows up up until 2006 before falling back considerably to 2010. Those were the years of Super Cena and business wasn't as good.

But how about this for an argument. Wrestling is obviously not as popular now as it was back in 2000. Is that even debatable?

 

[Slyfox696]

Well I could argue that DVR, internet streaming, the Network etc. have only affected it in the past few years

You could, but you'd be wrong.

those graphs show that business started declining throughout Cena's run on top.

Actually, it shows TV ratings declining before then, when Austin and Rock were still on top. Then you start to see a small increase when Cena first takes the title, up until 2007 when Chris Benoit murdered his family.

You are wrong. I have studied and debated Cena's time on top far more than you'll ever know.

If we take 2005 as being the definitive time when Cena was definitely the top guy you can see that interest grows up up until 2006

No, it was until around June 2007. Look it up. I have spreadsheets with the information in the General Wrestling section.

But how about this for an argument. Wrestling is obviously not as popular now as it was back in 2000. Is that even debatable?

Yes, it is debatable actually. I'll explain reasons later if you'd like but, as a hint, it includes factors I've already mentioned.