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NCAA Basketball 2012-2013
- Thread starter Slyfox696
- Start date
I love college basketball. Not just March Madness but the entirety of the season. This year is especially exciting considering the great team Michigan has. They are currently a top 5 team with only one loss to their record, and that was on the road by just 2 points against a top 15 team. They have a POY candidate in Trey Burke, a sharp shooting junior in Tim Hardaway Jr, and a trio of Freshmen that are contributing a ton in Glenn Robinson III, Nick Stauskas, and Mitch McGary. All 5 guys are likely to get drafted into the NBA at some point after their college careers are over. The way they have been playing offensively has, at times, been Showtimeesque. They are a legit threat to win the best conference in America, the Big Ten, as well as compete for a National Title. I'd also like to add that they are led by one of the most underrated coaches in the country in John Beilein.
#25 Miami is up 47-19 over #1 Duke right now. This just goes to show you how important it is to show up every night ready to play. I just turned it on, but it's clear to me already that Duke is not in the zone at all.
It wouldn't surprise me to see Duke make a good run to make it respectable. But I'll be surprised if Duke can make it close.
EDIT: Just heard Miami is on a 36-5 run.
It wouldn't surprise me to see Duke make a good run to make it respectable. But I'll be surprised if Duke can make it close.
EDIT: Just heard Miami is on a 36-5 run.
Richard Blonoff
Make America Rassle Again
Seems no one wants to be #1 this year. Indiana, Duke, Louisville have all fallen. Duke and Louisville did it within a week of being named #1. March will probably have a few top seeds fall early as there really isn't one stand out team this season.
Meh, college basketball isn't like football, teams lose. Duke is still without Ryan Kelly, which is a big loss (figuratively and literally) to a team who has never had a lot of depth. Indiana is still very good and after watching Louisville demolish Mizzou earlier this year, I think they are still a top team, even if they have hit a rough patch. I haven't seen Michigan play this year (I have, but only for a few minutes) so I can't really comment on them. And I watched the last five minutes of Syracuse vs. Cincinnati, and once Syracuse decided they were ready to win the game, they looked VERY tough as well.
I think there are several top flight teams this year. I think the #1 thing is just a coincidence. Life on the road in conference play can be tough.
LoudClearVoice
Mid-Card Championship Winner
In college hoops, the rankings honestly don't matter. The tournament is what matters and the bracket you end up in (not necessarily the seed) makes the difference. It's all about matchups. You get into the tournament, land in a bracket with teams you match up really well against, then you can get all the way to the Final Four. No one remembers who was #1 in January or February once the Final Four rolls around.
Watching the Michigan vs. Indiana game tonight and it's painfully clear to me why Indiana won. Michigan's offense is virtually nonexistent. It's all about athleticism, being superior athletes and getting your shots from that athleticism. There are pick and rolls and a dribble weave, but there's no real continuity to their offense, no sets to free up the guys without the ball. Indiana, on the other hand, has run a lot of sets, getting guys in prime spots to score.
Michigan has one of the best, most efficient offenses in the country. They definitely had an off game but that performance is obviously far from the norm when you see their 20-2 record and the numbers they are putting up. There's usually a ton of ball movement, open shots for the 3 point shooters, and a lot of easy buckets inside. The same thing happened to Michigan in their first loss at OSU. The young freshmen just need to develop more because guys like Stauskas and Robinson have been disappearing for the most part in big road games. With that said, Michigan's back court of Trey Burke and Tim Hardaway Jr is so good, they still almost pulled the game out. The back court combined for 43 of Michigan's 73 points. They just need the freshmen to get more seasoned so they can play better on the road and the Wolverines will be fine come tourney time. The defense also needs to step up because you can't give up 81 points on the road and expect to win many games.
Nothing you said addresses the real problem, which is they don't run offensive sets which get them good shots when they're not hitting. That's why Indiana beat them, because Indiana would run plays to set guys up in positions to score. Michigan just ran around the perimeter, looking for dribble penetration lanes, and open 3 point shots.
It was the first time I had seriously watched them play, but if they play like that all the time, I don't like their chances of winning it all.
EDIT: I also want to note it's probably not a coincidence the two most talented teams Michigan has played happened to be the two games Michigan's offense didn't perform up to the usual production. It'll be interesting to see how Michigan fares against Michigan St.
And coming from someone who has watched every single one of their games this season, that is not how they usually play offensively. John Beilein has coached and run the same two guard front offense his entire career and he has had a ton of success. I'm going to go ahead and trust John Belien's offensive track record over your analysis of the ONE game you've seen them play this season.
Their overall record and wins over the likes of Minnesota (when they were a top 10 team), Kansas State, NC State, and Pitt, shows they don't always play like that.
Both of those losses were by single digits on the road. Lets see what happens when Ohio State plays at Michigan on Tuesday and when Indiana plays at Michigan next month. Losing by single digits, on the road, against the number 3 team in the country isn't exactly a bad loss or something to be concerned about.
How do you mean? Do you mean they changed their offense? Or do you mean they simply weren't hitting shots?
He's a great coach, no doubt about it. Of course, he's only been to the Elite Eight once, and never further...
I have only seen them once, and I'm relaying simply what I saw. And I saw an offense which relied on great athleticism, and not good system. And that can win, we've seen that with Kentucky over the years under Calipari. Of course, to win it all, Calipari needed the #1 and #2 picks in the NBA draft, and two other picks in the 1st round.
I don't think Michigan has that. So they need offensive sets which you can run against great defense and get good shots.
Every team you named doesn't come close to being great. They are good teams, with an ability to beat great teams, but they are not great themselves.
A very fair and relevant point.
I'm not talking about the loss nearly so much as I am talking about the potential under the current offensive system, which, again, I've only seen once this year.
I'm sure you've watched them many more times, but if the offense they ran against Indiana is their base offense, they are going to struggle when they play teams with elite athletes who know how to play defense. Tom Crean has had a reputation for a long time for being a good defensive coach. Thad Matta teams are always well coached defensively. And we all know what Izzo teams do defensively.
Michigan is incredibly talented around the perimeter, that much is obvious. But if I were a Michigan fan, I'd be nervous come tournament time, because if they keep running dribble weaves and very high ball screens, and rely almost exclusively on dribble penetration to make the offense run, they will be in trouble if they run into a team that can guard the perimeter.
Again, that's all based upon the one game I've seen. If yesterday was different from what Michigan normally does, then what I'm saying here doesn't apply. I am interested to see what happens when Michigan plays Michigan State.
The current offensive system that Michigan runs has them ranked 16th in the NCAA in points per game, 1st in points per possession, 3rd in field goal %, and 8th in 3 point field goal %. If they had an offense based on just athleticism then there is absolutely no way they would have those types of numbers. To lead the NCAA in points per possession you need to run sets that get guys open looks on the outside or easy buckets inside. Against Indiana, Michigan was missing a lot of shots early on and they were taken out of their comfort zone. At that point Burke and Hardaway started to take over and they were running more iso type plays because that's what was getting them back in the game. They were abandoning sets early and went in to more of a "pass and watch Burke/Hardaway offense" at times. While that worked for a while, it isn't something that can be sustained and that along with poor defense was Michigan's downfall.
When you have a young team it takes time for those guys to adjust to the big stage, especially on the road. Michigan plays 9 main guys in their rotation and 5 of them are true freshmen. Because of that, their offensive efficiency has lacked at times on the road against great teams.
When you have a young team it takes time for those guys to adjust to the big stage, especially on the road. Michigan plays 9 main guys in their rotation and 5 of them are true freshmen. Because of that, their offensive efficiency has lacked at times on the road against great teams.
Sure they could.
So are you saying they just chose not to run them against Indiana? Honest question.
So you're saying they don't normally run their offense that way? That they do have patterned sets, they just chose not to run them against Indiana, even when it was clear they weren't getting good shots?
At the end of the day, like I said before, if Michigan runs their offense that way consistently, they'll be in trouble come tournament time.
Richard Blonoff
Make America Rassle Again
I think Michigan will be fine come tournament time. Assembly Hall is an insanely tough place to play. It has some unusual sight lines, and while it isn't a small venue, it isn't as big as you would think a venue that sits 17k would be. It gets loud. I was at the game and at times you could feel the energy being sucked out of the Michigan players.
Most Big Ten teams struggle once the tournament starts because they don't get the benefit of home calls (hi Indiana) and don't do well in non-home environments. MSU (and OSU to an extent) are the only teams who've consistently won on the road over the past 20 years and have made final four appearances (IU has a title game berth as well but still hasn't been nearly as good as the other two for a while now). I'm not saying this spells doom for UM and IU, as they have looked like top 5 teams so far, but they wouldn't be my choices to make final fours either at this point.
Sets were being run they just weren't being executed. There were a lot of misreads and missed shots early so Michigan's back court started to take matters in to their own hands a little and that kept them close. Trey Burke set a season high for shots attempted and three pointers attempted. Tim Hardaway Jr had his second highest shot total of the season. Like I said, they were abandoning sets early and playing more one on one which got them back into the game. However, that style of play can never be relied upon in terms of consistency.
Richard Blonoff
Make America Rassle Again
I think one issue the Big Ten has when it comes to the postseason in most sports is they have this old school mentality. Believe me, as much as I want to tell you about how IU is primed to take home the title come tournament time, they have a piss poor non conference schedule and their best wins are home wins. MSU is the only team that consistently tests themselves out of conference on the road, and they have the most consistent tourney success.
When it comes to football, where I think that old school mentality comes into play, most of the teams still employ the smash mouth style of offenses and only hire coaches with ties to the school. Look at what Urban Meyer did at OSU, He brings in an offense the conference hasn't seen much of and he goes undefeated with a team that was on probation and sanctions.
A lot of people here in Middle America are close minded and stuck in their ways,and the Big Ten reflects that.
When it comes to football, where I think that old school mentality comes into play, most of the teams still employ the smash mouth style of offenses and only hire coaches with ties to the school. Look at what Urban Meyer did at OSU, He brings in an offense the conference hasn't seen much of and he goes undefeated with a team that was on probation and sanctions.
A lot of people here in Middle America are close minded and stuck in their ways,and the Big Ten reflects that.
I'd agree for the most part. I guess it shouldn't be a big surprise that the teams with the best coaches usually go deeper in the tournament. Izzo and maybe Matta are really the only coaches I'd put up in that echelon for the Big 10 (along with others such as Coach K, Williams, Self, and Stevens off the top of my head). You can be a good coach and go deep, but it won't nearly happen as consistently. I could definitely see Crean or Beilein taking their teams deeper this year than Izzo or Williams, but over a 10 year period I'd still expect the latter two to have much more impressive resumes.
I would put Tom Crean in the elite level of coaches. That man is fantastic on the sidelines, I've thought that ever since Dwayne Wade was still at Marquette.
Wrestling101
The Shield of Injustice
No one has mentioned the Gators yet in this thread? Haters....
You can't be surprised, it's rare for the Florida basketball team to ever be mentioned, even as they were winning back to back titles. It always seems like they are an afterthought.
Wrestling101
The Shield of Injustice
You think so? Seems to me like they were the dominant team and got plenty of pub, especially that 2nd year, and especially because they became the only school to win the basketball and football National Championship titles in the same year.
Anyway, they seem to have a pretty dominant team right now. I hope they carry it over to the tourney.
The end of the Ohio State vs. Michigan game is EXACTLY what I hate about officiating. Aaron Craft was so obviously fouled not even Big Sexy can argue with me it wasn't a foul. But because of the "let the players decide" mentality, the officials wound up deciding the game.
Craft should have gotten two free throws, make or miss. Terrible officiating.
Craft should have gotten two free throws, make or miss. Terrible officiating.
That is never going to get called in that situation no matter who is playing. Let's also not forget that the play right before that, Craft fouled GRIII hard to the face and at any other time in the game it would have been a flagrant one giving Michigan two shots and the ball. "Letting them play" went both ways in the final 10 seconds.
Oh, don't be biased. That IS going to get called in that situation, I saw it called in a high school game last Saturday night. I've seen it called in college games. I agree it's not called ENOUGH, but it SHOULD be called. That's my point. And you're right, it doesn't matter who is playing, it SHOULD be called.
And if Craft had done that at any other time in the game, it would have deserved a flagrant, because Craft would have had no reason to foul. In that situation, however, after Craft got fouled shooting his 8 foot jumper (which I don't have a problem with not being called, as it was hard to see and I've never been a fan of an automatic foul on a block from behind), Craft HAD to foul to stop the clock.
That wasn't a "let them play" moment, that was a situation where the referees understood Craft's intent wasn't to harm Michigan, but rather to foul and stop the clock.
The "let them play" mentality did not go both ways in the final ten seconds, it only went one way. And I'd be just as frustrated if the teams were reversed, though I suspect you'd be just as upset as I am if the situations were reversed.