NBA Offseason

[JGlass]

Jordan never lost in the finals, sure, but he originally could never get past the dominant teams of his era like the Bad Boy Pistons either. LeBron in '07, took a team with basically no one but himself to the Finals. Anyone remember Shannon Brown? Daniel Gibson? Eric Snow? Anyone remember anything Drew Gooden ever did other than get fat and shave off all but that patch of hair on the back of his head? That team had LeBron, Anderson Varejao flopping all over the court, and whatever body parts Cleveland doctors could Frankenstein together to keep Zydrunas Ilgauskas upright. All this while Delonte West was fucking LeBron's mom.

This is my favorite basketball-related paragraph in WZ history.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

GOAT = Greatest of all time. How can you be the best, how can no one be better, but you are still not the greatest?

People think of "greater" as being something that can be measured (i.e. stats) and then they think of "best" as skill.

For example, people think that Barry Sanders was a "better" football player than Troy Aikman but Aikman clearly had a "greater" career.

 

[Khalifa]

What isn't fine is finding arbitrary reasons as to why someone isn't great.

Or is it finding reasons to split the top 10 players. Otherwise like Big Nick said, how could there be a GOAT. Skill isn’t s good factor to go off in the NBA because it’s the NBA, everyone is the best.

People like to use the whole LeBron had to build a super team argument and pretend that Jordan carried a bunch of Euroleague rejects to multiple titles.

I don’t know about others but certainly for me it’s obvious Jordan didn’t play with scrubs. No champion has. The difference between Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russel and then James is, James created his own super team. He wasn’t drafted to it like most. You can look at it in this narrative. James couldn’t do it by himself so he had to get two other top 5 players to also make him lose in the finals. No Big 3 was created like Miami’s, where it was discussed years before that it could/would be a fun option to do. Imagine Jordan losing and then joining the Celtics with magic. That’s what it was like and why it’s worse. Is it unfair for Lebron that Pippen was drafted to Jordan’s team? A little yeah, but how It’s also unfair on other players legacies to be pushed because James got his championships by creating a super team (and Ray Allen hitting a bullshit shot). You can say it’s not unfair or whatever but really is Durants championship as powerful with the warriors as it would’ve been win if he stayed in OKC and won it. Surely not.

Jordan's original 3-peat run included having guys like Pippen, a guy who made the NBA 50th Anniversary Team, was a 7x All-Star, 10x All Defense Teams, and a 7x All-NBA Team selection.[

Gotta love Pippen. You know my first name ever on here was Scottie Pippen, maybe second name but yeah, the only person I like more than Pippen is Kobe.

One season removed from Jordan fucking off to play baseball, the Bulls went 55-27, so clearly they weren't a team build only on Jordan.

When he came back for the second 3-peat, among some solid role players, he had Pippen still, had Rodman (how you gonna say a team with three future HoFers isn't a super team) at one point had Robert Parish (so a team with 4 future HoFers). Not to mention numerous guys who held coaching roles in the future, including Steve Kerr. They even had Bill Wennington, who was so good Chicago area McDonald's named a sandwich after him.

Jordan never lost in the finals, sure, but he originally could never get past the dominant teams of his era like the Bad Boy Pistons either.

It took Lebron 9 years to get his first ring while Jordan 7, meaning they had struggles but Jordan just became the problem a lot sooner.

That was in reference for you saying Jordan had struggles as well, which for some reason disappeared.

LeBron in '07, took a team with basically no one but himself to the Finals. Anyone remember Shannon Brown? Daniel Gibson? Eric Snow? Anyone remember anything Drew Gooden ever did other than get fat and shave off all but that patch of hair on the back of his head? That team had LeBron, Anderson Varejao flopping all over the court, and whatever body parts Cleveland doctors could Frankenstein together to keep Zydrunas Ilgauskas upright. All this while Delonte West was fucking LeBron's mom.

This is impressive as hell and Lebron doesn’t get enough credit for this. Especially the way he went about beating those Pistons.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I just don't see how LeBron leaving Cleveland is a black mark. Was he supposed to stay there and let shitty management keep drafting ineffective players and signing poor free agents? On that '07 team, LeBron was only the 4th highest paid player, it isn't like he was commanding all the money and leaving the team no room to sign anyone else. The truth is, Dan Gilbert is a terrible fucking owner who refused to help LeBron, got called on his shit, played the jealous ex role and claimed Cleveland would win a title before LeBron in Miami, then fucked the team into the Lottery for years and still managed to draft Anthony Gilbert. It wasn't until LeBron came back that Gilbert started trying to help him.

The narrative that a guy chasing a ring demeans its value is bullshit because the same guys who criticize guys who chase rings and create super teams are the same guys who piss on the greatness of players with no rings.

It is also a team sport. How many guys in NBA history can you name that carried a team by themselves to a title? LeBron in '07 and Iverson in 2000 managed to drag crap teams (both with Eric Snow) to the finals, but I can't think of a single player who carried a team to a title. Maybe Dirk with the Mavs. If you want to argue that rings = success, then Robert Horry is top 10 all time and Trent Dilfer is a better quarterback than Dan Marino.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

No one has done a better job carrying a team than Lebron in 2006/07. That was superhuman shit. He made a pack of bums look decent. I doubt any player in modern history could've done that. Jordan was better at certain things, but making other people better? Not like Lebron.

 

[JGlass]

I don’t know about others but certainly for me it’s obvious Jordan didn’t play with scrubs. No champion has. The difference between Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russel and then James is, James created his own super team. He wasn’t drafted to it like most.

So you're just going to totally ignore that until 1988 there was no free agency in basketball?

 

[SSJPhenom]

No one has done a better job carrying a team than Lebron in 2006/07. That was superhuman shit. He made a pack of bums look decent. I doubt any player in modern history could've done that. Jordan was better at certain things, but making other people better? Not like Lebron.

I'd argue that Iverson's 01 squad that he took to the Finals was arguably the worst Finals team in NBA history. LeBron's 07 squad isn't far behind though. Nobody thought they'd make it that year. LeBron, in his 4th season, took a team to the Finals where the next best player was Zydrunas Ilgauskus. There's something to be said for that and they got past those dominant Pistons to do it. Jordan never got anywhere until the Celtics got too old and until Scottie Pippen developed into a future HoFer.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

So you're just going to totally ignore that until 1988 there was no free agency in basketball?

Was it really not until '88? I thought it was the 70s. Might be thinking baseball. Regardless, of course you have to ignore facts that don't fit your narrative.

 

[A11oftheLights]

So you're just going to totally ignore that until 1988 there was no free agency in basketball?

This is something I can never understand. As a 22 year old, free agency is just a thing that seems normal in all sports. I dont understand how teams could just hold players against their will even though their contract was expired. Thats slavery

 

[Khalifa]

I just don't see how LeBron leaving Cleveland is a black mark. Was he supposed to stay there and let shitty management keep drafting ineffective players and signing poor free agents? On that '07 team, LeBron was only the 4th highest paid player, it isn't like he was commanding all the money and leaving the team no room to sign anyone else. The truth is, Dan Gilbert is a terrible fucking owner who refused to help LeBron, got called on his shit, played the jealous ex role and claimed Cleveland would win a title before LeBron in Miami, then fucked the team into the Lottery for years and still managed to draft Anthony Gilbert. It wasn't until LeBron came back that Gilbert started trying to help him.

The narrative that a guy chasing a ring demeans its value is bullshit because the same guys who criticize guys who chase rings and create super teams are the same guys who piss on the greatness of players with no rings.

It is also a team sport. How many guys in NBA history can you name that carried a team by themselves to a title? LeBron in '07 and Iverson in 2000 managed to drag crap teams (both with Eric Snow) to the finals, but I can't think of a single player who carried a team to a title. Maybe Dirk with the Mavs. If you want to argue that rings = success, then Robert Horry is top 10 all time and Trent Dilfer is a better quarterback than Dan Marino.

This is mainly directed at the first sentence. Lebron leaving Cleveland was not a black mark, him leaving to create the super team was. If he went with just Dwade or just Bosh it’s different. But at the 08 olympics when it was first talked about, Lebron thought he could get his championship by having a super team. Let’s not forget the plan was always for Paul or Melo to eventually end up there as well.

Like Durant, him leaving didn’t hurt, him going to the Warriors hurt. Durant is an all timer but Bitching out and making his championship journey almost impossible not to happen doesn’t help his legacy.

So you're just going to totally ignore that until 1988 there was no free agency in basketball?

I don’t understand what you’re getting at. Just because they weren’t able to do it means nothing. If it was there would they of created super teams? Maybe but I can’t make that call.

 

[Khalifa]

Sorry JGlass, were you referring to why I put Russell in that post.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I'd argue that Iverson's 01 squad that he took to the Finals was arguably the worst Finals team in NBA history. LeBron's 07 squad isn't far behind though. Nobody thought they'd make it that year. LeBron, in his 4th season, took a team to the Finals where the next best player was Zydrunas Ilgauskus. There's something to be said for that and they got past those dominant Pistons to do it. Jordan never got anywhere until the Celtics got too old and until Scottie Pippen developed into a future HoFer.

Maybe the Sixers were not quite as talented, but the East was weaker at that point than in 2007. And the Sixers had Mr. Larry Brown.

 

[JGlass]

Sorry JGlass, were you referring to why I put Russell in that post.

And Magic and Bird. By the time free agency was a thing, both of them were in the back 9 of their careers.

My larger point is that factoring in business decisions to a player's legacy is a dicey proposition simply because the way the NBA has changed over the years. Hell, when Russell played in the NBA there were 9 teams, and only 4 of them had above .500 records. How are you going to say LeBron finding a team that fit his needs in free agency is a knock on him when Russell never had that option? It's a foolish argument that is made solely by people that want to deny LeBron his throne. I will never understand why it's a knock that LeBron went and found his own championship team as opposed to having it done for him.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Maybe the Sixers were not quite as talented, but the East was weaker at that point than in 2007. And the Sixers had Mr. Larry Brown.

People also forget that Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year that too. Aaron McKie was also 6th Man. Not exactly a murderers row, but even with my post about Iverson dragging that team to the Finals, he had some help. He was just the only offensive threat on that team.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

This is mainly directed at the first sentence. Lebron leaving Cleveland was not a black mark, him leaving to create the super team was. If he went with just Dwade or just Bosh it’s different. But at the 08 olympics when it was first talked about, Lebron thought he could get his championship by having a super team. Let’s not forget the plan was always for Paul or Melo to eventually end up there as well.

Like Durant, him leaving didn’t hurt, him going to the Warriors hurt. Durant is an all timer but Bitching out and making his championship journey almost impossible not to happen doesn’t help his legacy.



I don’t understand what you’re getting at. Just because they weren’t able to do it means nothing. If it was there would they of created super teams? Maybe but I can’t make that call.

Who cares where he went? Was he supposed to go to fucking Minnesota and help them break their years of incompetence? He went to a team that could afford him and two other All-Stars. It isn't his fault the owner was willing to help his team and others weren't. And how is LeBron creating a super team, which is bullshit by the way, any different than Kobe constantly threatening to leave LA unless they got him help?

 

[Khalifa]

Who cares where he went? Was he supposed to go to fucking Minnesota and help them break their years of incompetence? He went to a team that could afford him and two other All-Stars. It isn't his fault the owner was willing to help his team and others weren't. And how is LeBron creating a super team, which is bullshit by the way, any different than Kobe constantly threatening to leave LA unless they got him help?

It’s not where he went, it’s what he went into. Like I said before, if he chose just Wade or Bosh, hell let’s just say Kobe for the sake of it, then it’s not as bad. But he didn’t. Bosh said they had been talking about playing together for months, before realising what he said and changing it to days. So the team was clearly set up.

Kobe was playing with a worse team than James did at the time and it’s not even close, so it was fair to say I need someone else here. Plus he didn’t say get a top 5 player. The team he wanted to go to was the Bulls, who were a lottery team so it’s not like Kobe was wanting to go to a team where he was favourite for a championship, let alone pretty much guaranteed one. He just wanted help. Lebron wanted help too obviously, but still.

If you think Durants championship is just as good then I guess we just won’t be seeing eye to eye on this one. To me Durants championship will always be if you can’t beat them, join them and thus taking away what could be of been something to differentiate from another all time great and possibly giving him the edge.

On another note, let’s not forget about JKidd taking that trash net team to 2 straight finals. Probably not as good as Lebron but it’s up there for taking a shit team to the finals.

 

[JGlass]

It’s not where he went, it’s what he went into. Like I said before, if he chose just Wade or Bosh, hell let’s just say Kobe for the sake of it, then it’s not as bad. But he didn’t. Bosh said they had been talking about playing together for months, before realising what he said and changing it to days. So the team was clearly set up.

Kobe was playing with a worse team than James did at the time and it’s not even close, so it was fair to say I need someone else here. Plus he didn’t say get a top 5 player. The team he wanted to go to was the Bulls, who were a lottery team so it’s not like Kobe was wanting to go to a team where he was favourite for a championship, let alone pretty much guaranteed one. He just wanted help. Lebron wanted help too obviously, but still.

If you think Durants championship is just as good then I guess we just won’t be seeing eye to eye on this one. To me Durants championship will always be if you can’t beat them, join them and thus taking away what could be of been something to differentiate from another all time great and possibly giving him the edge.

On another note, let’s not forget about JKidd taking that trash net team to 2 straight finals. Probably not as good as Lebron but it’s up there for taking a shit team to the finals.

Why is it so bad that LeBron built his own team? I seriously don't understand that sentiment at all.

Also, obviously Durant's championship is just as good. I mean, it was obvious, but he was the guy that put that team over the top. They lost the year before, then KD joined up and they beat them easily. I definitely resent KD for making the decision he did, but in doing so he helped create the best team of all time, and how can you begrudge a guy for wanting to be part of that?

 

[Richard Blonoff]

So LeBron being his own man and getting his own help isn't okay, but Kobe bitching and moaning and telling people to bring him help is fine? There is something drastically wrong with that thought process.

 

[Khalifa]

Why is it so bad that LeBron built his own team? I seriously don't understand that sentiment at all.

It’s not. It was building a super team. It had never been done before and people were legitimately thinking that they were going to beat the Bulls 72-10 record. That’s not Building your own team, that’s going to a team that is impossible to stop, except when Lebron doesn’t show up in the playoffs.

He built his own team in Cleveland round 2, and that isn’t even in the same universe as him going to Miami to team with Wade and Bosh. No problem with what he did in Cleveland, almost same talent. Just went about it completely different.

It’s not just building your own team, it is doing a fantasy draft in 2k and putting yourself in the #1 spot and then having trade override on.

Also, obviously Durant's championship is just as good. I mean, it was obvious, but he was the guy that put that team over the top. They lost the year before, then KD joined up and they beat them easily. I definitely resent KD for making the decision he did, but in doing so he helped create the best team of all time, and how can you begrudge a guy for wanting to be part of that?

Warriors won the year before they lost after being 3-1 up with the best regular season record in history. If you call that Durant getting them over the hump then I’ll stop now. Durant helped but he didn’t get them over the hump, he made them impossible to beat. Is he the bests player on the team. Yes and it’s not even close.

And I don’t begrudge Durant. He will never have a better time in his life. But all I’m saying is I know if I’m starting a franchise and my franchise has a rocky path or someone better than us, I know I can trust Jordan but James and Durant night leave me, so I’m not taking them #1 overall.

So LeBron being his own man and getting his own help isn't okay, but Kobe bitching and moaning and telling people to bring him help is fine? There is something drastically wrong with that thought process.

I don’t even know why Kobe is in this conversation to begin with. If you think not wanting to play with Smush Parker, Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown is the same as joining Wade and Bosh because you can’t make it out of the conference finals then again, we just won’t see eye to eye.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

We will never see eye to eye because you keep finding bullshit reasons to tear down LeBron. Like LeBron wanted to play with fucking Eric Snow and Daniel Gibson. "Oh but Kobe is so great because he never left LA, he just asked for help." I guarantee Kobe would have bolted if he could have. He threatened to leave multiple times when he didn't get his way. LeBron asked for help too and never got it, so I guess the honorable thing would have been to just suck it up and settle for an eternal three seed in the East and never win a ring and then listen to people shit on his legacy for never winning a ring. I mean fuck a guy for just taking advantage of an opportunity right? LeBron is a joke, Durant is a snake but Kobe and Jordan are gods. Never mind that both those guys are self centered ball hogs who never made another player around them better and LeBron does that each time he steps on the court.

The fact is, there is no more important player in NBA history than LeBron. Him leaving Cleveland gave power back to players to make their own choices. He pushes rating everywhere he goes. He is concerned with having a good image and being a good person. He gives back. He promotes change and brings awareness to social issues. For some reason this makes people hate him and find arbitrary reasons to tear him down.

 

[Cena Is A Punk Rocker]

I just want to point out that Boston originated this "super team" concept before Miami got involved. Lest we forget KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen joining forces.

 

[Khalifa]

We will never see eye to eye because you keep finding bullshit reasons to tear down LeBron.

Tear down Lebron? The only negative thing I’ve said is Lebron not GOAT. Otherwise how much more praise do I have to give the guy. Every post I’ve said Lebron has done something great or something along hose lines.

Like LeBron wanted to play with fucking Eric Snow and Daniel Gibson.

What about guys like Antawn Jamison. Dude averaged 22 points the year before going to the Cavs, 20 points during the year he was traded to the Cavs. Not a bad player. What about Mo Williams who has scored 50 points in a game. Not the best players but no scrubs either. Is that a reason to stay? No, but did I ever say he had to stay at the Cavs? Or am I complaining about the super team? I’ve said previously in another post I don’t care that he left the Cavs.

"Oh but Kobe is so great because he never left LA, he just asked for help."

How can you use that in quotation marks? Who said that?

I guarantee Kobe would have bolted if he could have. He threatened to leave multiple times when he didn't get his way.

Well if it wasn’t a hypothetical then this would be a good argument. Could’ve, would’ve, should’ve.

LeBron asked for help too and never got it,

They traded for Antawn Jamison who is help. No Pau Gasol but hes 50x the player anyone has mentioned. Mo Williams isn’t the best help either but he was what Jordan clarkson is doing now. Like it’s no all star but his team was second best ( best if you don’t count Boston) in the east and he wants more help. Bit different to Kobe’s situation, which I’m willing to just leave out of the convo because it’s apples and oranges in terms of what actually happened.

so I guess the honorable thing would have been to just suck it up and settle for an eternal three seed in the East and never win a ring and then listen to people shit on his legacy for never winning a ring. I mean fuck a guy for just taking advantage of an opportunity right?

I have no idea why it’s being taken so personal that I am not considering Lebron as the GOAT. I mean I even said he was “top 2 depending on what you’re looking for”. Jeez Louise, brother.

LeBron is a joke, Durant is a snake but Kobe and Jordan are gods.

Well I was actually going to add in to my post a couple nights back or yesterday or whatever, that Lebron is a better player than Kobe. I don’t know why you’re thinking I’m saying Kobe is untouchable. Maybe because I made reference us having a hypothetical arguememt about Kobe being top 10 in another thread, but I never actually said he was top 10, I just used him as an example.

Never mind that both those guys are self centered ball hogs who never made another player around them better and LeBron does that each time he steps on the court.

I mean, I don’t know who has really benefitted from Lebron. Mo is the only person I can think of dying in the ass when Lebron left and that was more a mental thing. Unless you’re talking about the 3 point shooters. Wade and Bosh, Irving and Love. Who has he made better? But if you want to take that into your argument for the GOAT, go ahead. It’s a fair point to make. Kobe and MJ probably the most selfish players in the game (or most determined, Or a combination). MJ said he was never going to pass to Luc Longley again because he dropped a pass in practice. Hectic shit. Videos going around of Kobe elbowing teammates in training and shit. Fucked shit to do but doesn’t take away from the basketball player they are.

And before you say “oh but Lebrons basketball legacy is determined on what he did outside of basketball?”. I base my GOAT on what they’re going to do for my team when I need it the most. Game 7, last shot, going through a hectic period. Lebrons decision can tie in with all of those things, because remember he “gave up” in the playoffs the year before he left.

The fact is, there is no more important player in NBA history than LeBron. Him leaving Cleveland gave power back to players to make their own choices. He pushes rating everywhere he goes. He is concerned with having a good image and being a good person. He gives back. He promotes change and brings awareness to social issues. For some reason this makes people hate him and find arbitrary reasons to tear him down.

I’ve never said I hated Lebron. I fucking love Lebron. I’ll watch him all day and I hope he gets a retirement tour like Kobe and takes 100 shots in his last game. It’s going to be so fucked when he retires. If not making him number 1 in the best player ever discussion is hating him, instead I put him between 2-10, then I’m shocked.

You make good points about Lebron and are right. If you want to use those as your reasoning for Lebron is the greatest player ever go ahead. I personally don’t think bringing social awareness to shit makes you a better player but I don’t care who you think is greatest of all time, that’s your opinion. I just responded to Phenoms post which said he was on MJs heels, and I replied with a yes but he will never get in front for me.

 

[Khalifa]

I just want to point out that Boston originated this "super team" concept before Miami got involved. Lest we forget KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen joining forces.

You can even go further back than that. MJ, Scottie, Rodman. West, Baylor, Chameblin are just some examples. Boston brought it back but they traded to get it done.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

You can even go further back than that. MJ, Scottie, Rodman. West, Baylor, Chameblin are just some examples. Boston brought it back but they traded to get it done.

I disagree about Chicago. The difference? They drafted Jordan and Pippen, and they developed into great players. During Jordan's second run, they got Rodman. And Rodman wasn't exactly Karl Malone. Great rebounder and defender, not much else. Same goes for Golden State. They drafted and developed their current guys and then signed Kevin Durant.

 

[Khalifa]

I disagree about Chicago. The difference? They drafted Jordan and Pippen, and they developed into great players. During Jordan's second run, they got Rodman. And Rodman wasn't exactly Karl Malone. Great rebounder and defender, not much else. Same goes for Golden State. They drafted and developed their current guys and then signed Kevin Durant.

Yeah fair call. I was just counting them as a great trio but your right, that’s not making a super team. That’s drafting well and Rodman wasn’t the best, perfect for what they had but could’ve done better for sure.