NBA Offseason

[OYDK]

I'd like to offer my 2 cents on this. For me, I over look the Raps because this isn't the first time they've been very very good during the regular season. Now Idk what's going to happen this year, but using their other seasons where they've been amazing during the regular season as a sample size, I don't expect them to do much in the playoffs because in those seasons they got the brakes beat off of em in the playoffs. So, before I or most serious fans of basketball can start taking them seriously, we need to see them do something in the post season.

Same reason I can't fully get behind the Rockets to make it to the Finals. They're amazing, but whenever CP3 and Harden get to the playoffs they usually choke. I'm going to have to see them buck the trend before I can confidently expect them to win.

True, but has anybody really "done" anything in the playoffs other than the Cavs and Warriors over the last 3 years? And should it really be considered choking if you're losing to the two most stacked teams in the Conference every year? I mean, I'll be the first to admit that the Raps have been an historically shitty playoff team, but this Boston team hasn't proven anything yet, and if you look at the whole picture, they're not as deep, as efficient, or as consistent as Toronto.

I also think the new-look Cavs need to be taken into consideration. From 2015-2017, there was literally no doubt that Cleveland was coming out of the East. It was a foregone conclusion. While I still think they're the favorites this year, at least they finally look mortal. They're a regular team again as opposed to a "superteam." I'm just saying, if you want to talk about a team that can give the Cavs a fight, you should be talking about Toronto. They have the experience, the depth, and the roster to compete. What do the Celtics really have? Kyrie and a superb defense. They're a great-looking team. But they're also a team that has drastically overachieved this year and I have to think that sooner or later, it'll catch up to them.

 

[SSJPhenom]

It's not choking when you lose a closely contested game or if you even compete. What CP3 and Harden do, however, can absolutely be considered choking. CP3 and the Clippers blew a 3-1 series lead against the Rockets in the semi finals a few years back. Harden, oh gosh, Harden has a history of disappearing in big playoff games. Even as long ago as 2012 when the Thunder faced Miami in the Finals. He was young then, but he disappeared. Even last year, against the Warriors in game 6 he completely vanished.

With Toronto, it's not really choking it's the regular season making Toronto look like a great team but when they face an actual great team their just not good enough. That's what usually happens with them. Lowry and DeRozan have great seasons and are all stars but when the playoffs come around they're just not as good. Maybe that will change this year or next, but until it does nobody is going to take them seriously.

 

[OYDK]

It's not choking when you lose a closely contested game or if you even compete. What CP3 and Harden do, however, can absolutely be considered choking. CP3 and the Clippers blew a 3-1 series lead against the Rockets in the semi finals a few years back.

I don't see how that constitutes Chris Paul choking. The Clippers blew it but it's not like Paul didn't show up. He scored 22, 31, and 26 and had a double-double in every game they lost. I don't adhere to the argument that just because you're your teams best player, it means that the blame lands squarely on your shoulders whenever something goes wrong. If Paul had shot 30% from the field and had 10 points a game, then I could agree with it but he played well in that series.

Harden, oh gosh, Harden has a history of disappearing in big playoff games. Even as long ago as 2012 when the Thunder faced Miami in the Finals. He was young then, but he disappeared. Even last year, against the Warriors in game 6 he completely vanished.

This I can semi-agree with because Harden tends to put up big numbers in playoff games that typically don't matter as much as others. Yeah, he disappears in the big games, but still, I don't think losing to the favorite should be considered choking. Harden choked at certain times, but Houston itself didn't choke. Now GS giving up a 3-0 lead to Cleveland in 2016? That's choking.

With Toronto, it's not really choking it's the regular season making Toronto look like a great team but when they face an actual great team their just not good enough. That's what usually happens with them. Lowry and DeRozan have great seasons and are all stars but when the playoffs come around they're just not as good. Maybe that will change this year or next, but until it does nobody is going to take them seriously.

Nobody was going to be good enough to beat Cleveland in the last 3 years, but Toronto gets a bad rap because they were the ones to run up against them in the past two. And the Raps did take them to 6 in 2016 which is more than Atlanta or Boston can say. Again, it's one thing to believe that the Raptors aren't good enough to be taken seriously, it's another to shun them in favor of teams like Boston and Washington who haven't proven a thing anymore than Toronto has. Less than Toronto has actually.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I can agree with Paul not necessarily being the one to choke in the Clippers/Houston series, however in playoff games past, like against the Thunder, Paul made pivitol mistakes down the stretch. Two consecutive turnovers in that one game, bad passes and what not. Trust me, Paul has a history of choking too.

If you look at my posts, I don't necessarily say Boston or Washington has a chance. I've always considered the Cavs the favorites. It's just that we've been down this road before with Toronto and even Boston. They have stellar regular seasons and when it comes playoff time, they run into that LeBrick wall in Cleveland. I don't think that this season will be any different in that regard. I'd love to be wrong though.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Its not that they choke its more that they have a history of not going deep, no matter how good they have or havent looked. James Harden disappearing last year was criminal

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I haven't watched Toronto but from what I've read and heard they sound like they rely on their bench and getting to the line. Two advantages that don't always hold up in the playoffs. That and not being a NBA powerhouse or having a marquee star makes their chances of getting to the finals less and less. Plus that and the fact that they have only been sitting in first for a fart doesn't give me much confidence.

Not that the NBA or any professional sports league does anything that would give certain teams advantages. Cough, cough.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

RIP DaMarcus Cousins

 

[Khalifa]

ODYK, brother! I just had that conversatioj with my best mate the other day. He said he would always take Curry over Paul and Harden because Harden and Paul are chokers, i have a huge soft spot for Paul and I enjoy Harden more than most as wel so I had to add my two cents, and I said exactly what you said. That same year they lost to Houston, they beat the Spurs in a awesome 7 games series, and it ended in a Paul (pretty much) buzzer beater to win the series. The best team of this century Paul got past in the first round. He got injured against the Blazers last year and that’s why they lost. So imma have to side with ODYK here and say losing to the best teams isn’t choking, and Paul has pretty much showed up in every series he’s played in. I know you aren’t saying he’s choking Phenom but past series don’t suggest anything but Paul just facing better teams and coming up short.

Harden has the same problem, he is just losing to the best teams. Harden got a lot of fleck for not showing up against the Spurs in game 6 last year. I just can’t accept that as a reason to say harden can’t make it to the end. It’s the Spurs for gods sakes, the same team people thought could actually beat GSW with Durant. His team (admittedly not him) came back from 3-1 down and like 19 points down in game 6. Harden is one of the clutchest players in the NBA and this year they will make noise. Not win it all because you just can’t stop the Warriors but they would if the Warriors aren’t there.

In my opinion Chris Paul is the best true point guard in the NBA is Paul. Westbrook is more of an attacking guard and works best that way. He can give out 20 assists but you could easily also throw him at the 2. Paul plays defense, gets all his teammates involved and is there when you need him.

Harden is getting to that GOAT shooting guard club, the one that’s only exclusive for MJ, Kobe and Wade. This Harden can’t play defense is just crap. He can take a lot of possessions off, but when he tries he is easily an average defender in the NBA. What D does Curry do anyways? And he’s your only ever unaminous MVP.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

True point guards are becoming more and more irrelevant. Individual assists aren't nearly as important as team assists. On great, effective offensive teams, everyone is expected to move the ball now, not just a point guard.

 

[Khalifa]

True point guards are becoming more and more irrelevant. Individual assists aren't nearly as important as team assists. On great, effective offensive teams, everyone is expected to move the ball now, not just a point guard.

Yeah team assists are definitely the way to go but I wouldn’t say true point guards are becoming irrelevant, only if they can’t shoot (Rondo), but they are just so rare these days. You only really have two elite ones that I can think off the top of my head and that’s Wall and Paul (players who do get accused of holding the ball to long haha). Is Simmons a PG? He will be there soon. Rubio should be there really, he is having a great year but he isn’t elite. Would’ve been cool to see how Conley performed this year.

The clippers were so effective because Paul was passing it off to Reddick, Blake and Jordan. Assists aren’t really a good stat because it relies on the player making the shot and for players like Reddick m, getting 1000 screens so you can get open. So it’s not the best indicator but I’m not sure that Clipper team would’ve been as good if Lillard, Irving and I’ll even say Westbrook was running the point.

 

[SSJPhenom]

ODYK, brother! I just had that conversatioj with my best mate the other day. He said he would always take Curry over Paul and Harden because Harden and Paul are chokers, i have a huge soft spot for Paul and I enjoy Harden more than most as wel so I had to add my two cents, and I said exactly what you said. That same year they lost to Houston, they beat the Spurs in a awesome 7 games series, and it ended in a Paul (pretty much) buzzer beater to win the series. The best team of this century Paul got past in the first round. He got injured against the Blazers last year and that’s why they lost. So imma have to side with ODYK here and say losing to the best teams isn’t choking, and Paul has pretty much showed up in every series he’s played in. I know you aren’t saying he’s choking Phenom but past series don’t suggest anything but Paul just facing better teams and coming up short.

Harden has the same problem, he is just losing to the best teams. Harden got a lot of fleck for not showing up against the Spurs in game 6 last year. I just can’t accept that as a reason to say harden can’t make it to the end. It’s the Spurs for gods sakes, the same team people thought could actually beat GSW with Durant. His team (admittedly not him) came back from 3-1 down and like 19 points down in game 6. Harden is one of the clutchest players in the NBA and this year they will make noise. Not win it all because you just can’t stop the Warriors but they would if the Warriors aren’t there.

In my opinion Chris Paul is the best true point guard in the NBA is Paul. Westbrook is more of an attacking guard and works best that way. He can give out 20 assists but you could easily also throw him at the 2. Paul plays defense, gets all his teammates involved and is there when you need him.

Harden is getting to that GOAT shooting guard club, the one that’s only exclusive for MJ, Kobe and Wade. This Harden can’t play defense is just crap. He can take a lot of possessions off, but when he tries he is easily an average defender in the NBA. What D does Curry do anyways? And he’s your only ever unaminous MVP.

You don't have to talk to me about the merits of CP3. He's my absolute favorite player in the league. I've said that many times on here, however, to act as if he hasn't had his problems in the playoffs is just asinine. As I said, he's made bad passes down the stretch of some games and has had bad turnovers in very important playoff games down the stretch. Sure he's had some great moments too, but when it comes down to it, he's had more flounders than triumphs. Do I think it's fair to blame a star for their team's failures or to praise that same star for their team's successes? No, but that's how the NBA is. If the Cavs lose, it's LeBron's fault. If they win, well it's because he lead them there.

Same thing, Harden has had troubles down the stretch of important playoff series. Sure it's a team sport and his team lost, but it wasn't that he was outstanding and his team lost. It was that an APB had to be out out on him and his team lost. All I'm saying is that these things happen over and over again and for analyst, commentators, and fans to actually think that teams like Toronto or Houston have a chance to win it all, they're going to have to buck the trend and show they have a chance.

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

OKC are allowed to win from 1 to 13 in order to make myself a rich man. Ok, not really rich, but I have 10€ at a odd from 11, so it's 110€ still pretty fucking neat if you ask me.

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

OKC are allowed to win from 1 to 13 in order to make myself a rich man. Ok, not really rich, but I have 10€ at a odd from 11, so it's 110€ still pretty fucking neat if you ask me.

So yeah, this is why I hate fucking basketball. OKC was winning 44-21 in the FIRST QUARTER against the Kings and somehow, someway, manage to lose the two next quarters and lose the advantage of 23? 2 fucking 3 to llosing by 5 points! How mental is that? What happens to the players after kicking everyone else's butt? Relax? Take chill pills? Rub one off and get sleepy?

My mood is fucked and I hope OKC loses EVERYTIME now. Unless of course, they win the 4th quarter as they freaking should.

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

So yeah, this is why I hate fucking basketball. OKC was winning 44-21 in the FIRST QUARTER against the Kings and somehow, someway, manage to lose the two next quarters and lose the advantage of 23? 2 fucking 3 to llosing by 5 points! How mental is that? What happens to the players after kicking everyone else's butt? Relax? Take chill pills? Rub one off and get sleepy?

My mood is fucked and I hope OKC loses EVERYTIME now. Unless of course, they win the 4th quarter as they freaking should.

1 second! Thank you lord.
Now the same thing for Golden State. Don't you dare hummiliate my Clippers! Just win from 3 to 13 difference. Nor more, nor less and I'll be 200€ richer all around today.

 

[Khalifa]

OKC are allowed to win from 1 to 13 in order to make myself a rich man. Ok, not really rich, but I have 10€ at a odd from 11, so it's 110€ still pretty fucking neat if you ask me.

Hahahaha mate, if there is one rule I know about betting NBA it’s whatever you have 90% you will get fucked on. Like this OKC today it just won’t happen. I could give you a million times I’ve been fucked on. The best thing I love about it is that they can be so close to the lines they set sometimes. Like with total game scores and stuff you pick over or under and you lose by 1 point or half a point. So annoying.

 

[SSJPhenom]

If there's one thing I've learned from all my years in Vegas betting on basketball it's DON'T DO IT!!!! I've lost do to 1 point, because Pop decided not to play the starters and didn't tell anyone, all kinds of shit. What really kills me, though, is at the end of games when the refs decided the outcome. Of course, I wouldn't say anything if that outcome resulted in my winning but we're not talking about that.

 

[Hard Hit Prince]

Betting is a stupid addiction. I mean, all addictions are pretty stupid, but some more than others. I take 10 to 20€ every month of my salary to do it, this month however I took 50€, but it paid off yesterday winning 200€, but more times than ever, I lose it. I do it as an hobbie, because I can afford it and stuff, but if I think as a regular person, it's pretty fucking stupid to do it.

I'll be back next month though! I just won 200€ for fucks sake!

 

[SSJPhenom]

LeBron James becomes first (and only) player in NBA history to have 30,000 pts, 8,000 ast, and 8,000 rebounds. He's definitely creeping up on that ghost in Chicago. A championship this year just might do it.

Scary thing is, though, that he probably (barring injury) still has another 2-3 years to play at this level. He's also about to be the first and only player to make 12 consecutive All NBA 1st selections (I forget if that's 1st team or just all NBA in general). He'll probably end with 14-15 consecutive All NBA selections along with 33-35,000 pts, 10,000+ ast, and 10,000+ rebounds. How anyone can say that LeBron isn't at least on Jordan's heels is beyond me.

 

[Khalifa]

If Lebron wins the championship this year then I’ll happily say he’s the GOAT. There is no reason for it to not be the Warriorrs. The dude is top 10 all time, and depending on what you’re looking for, a top 2 player all time. No one will ever be as gifted as Lebron at basketball. You can be a better shooter, defender, leader, passer or whatever but no one will be a 6’8 machine that can run faster than anyone and be as strong as Lebron and be as great at as many things as Lebron. Like you said as well, he’s got atleast 2-3 years of doing this. When it’s all said and done he will be top 5 in most catergories and that is just unbelievable.

Lebron will never be the GOAT for me, maybe even top 5 but there is no one better than Lebron and no one will ever be better than Lebron at an all round aspect.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

"LeBron will never be GOAT for me." "There is no one better than LeBron."

What are you on?

 

[Khalifa]

In terms of skill, no one is better than Lebron. Well people like Jordan and Magic can be classed as equal in skill level but Lebron is the size of a big man that plays guard. For me though that doesn’t make you the best player. Lebron from his actions have proven that he won’t do whatever it takes to win, he sets up super teams with super shooting benches (with his best mates, would be fun as fuck no doubting that) and that’s what makes the difference between him and Jordan. You know Jordan was getting it done, we know Lebron can’t be stopped but there is always a well maybe he won’t win. Jordan hasn’t failed like Lebron and that’s why I take Jordan. If I’m starting a team I’m taking Jordan and then I still don’t know if I take Lebron with the second pick.

I should’ve explained it a bit more in my earlier post but even though Michael Jordan is widely considered as the GOAT, it doesn’t make him more skilled than other players in the top 10. He is the best player for his great basketball skills, accomplishments and killer instinct. Not many players are more skilled at basketball than Jason Williams yet he will never be in the top 100 players of all time.
Blake Griffin is another example, he’s got the most skills out of majority if not all power forwards. I mean he’s got the dribble moves, the dunks and now his shooting is improving but he won’t be an all time great power forward. Chris Webber is another who is highly skilled (one of my favourites of all time as well) than most players, but he just was missing something. If you based rankings on skills then most big men wouldn’t be in the convo (atleast from any year other than the last 5 or so when ball handling power forwards or forwards is becoming more and more natural) because guards would be more skilled at more things.

I guess it’s kind of like Shaq was the most dominant Center ever but is he the best? I love him but it’s hard to say he is the best. Definitely in the convo, but not a definite yes like MJ for GOAT.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Let me see if I get this:

You think LeBron is the best basketball player ever but his career (NBA, Olympics) does not warrant him being thought of as the greatest in that his solo and team accomplishments plus other intangibles don't stack up to Jordan and maybe others like Magic, Jabbar, Russell?

I buy it.

 

[Khalifa]

Let me see if I get this:

You think LeBron is the best basketball player ever but his career (NBA, Olympics) does not warrant him being thought of as the greatest in that his solo and team accomplishments plus other intangibles don't stack up to Jordan and maybe others like Magic, Jabbar, Russell?

I buy it.

In a way yes. Change best basketball player ever to most skilled and you hit the head. On top of just being naturally gifted and working hard, how could he not be when he is as strong as anyone, as fast as anyone, as athletic as anyone and are 6’8. That’s no knock on Lebron at all. If you could write a realistic perfect career for Lebron at the start of his career, then it probably still wouldn’t measure up to what he has actually done. He is phenomenal. It’s not like he lacks on accomplishments as well. 4 time MVP, over 30,000 points, finals MVP, 8 straight finals appearances, 3 championships. I just think if you’re in a last shot situation in a game 7, who do you want with the ball. I trust Jordan to get it done more on both ends of the court. Lebron has only really had one failed run at a championship and I think it was against Dallas, I mean if you want to take out the whole building a your own super team debate. The Spurs series are rough, they are a one of the best teams of all time. You can’t fault him for losing to GoldenState either. That one failure is something Jordan just hasn’t done and that’s why Lebron can’t beat Jordan for me.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I don't know how anyone can say any single guy is the GOAT. I think a top five is more logical. Now, for me, it's Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Russell and Bird. Lebron will end in the top five, replacing Bird or Magic.

I think Lebron can play at a high level until he's around 40, given how physically amazing he is. Never been a better athlete in basketball history.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

GOAT = Greatest of all time. How can you be the best, how can no one be better, but you are still not the greatest? If you believe Jordan is the GOAT, that's fine. Same if you feel that of LBJ. What isn't fine is finding arbitrary reasons as to why someone isn't great.

People like to use the whole LeBron had to build a super team argument and pretend that Jordan carried a bunch of Euroleague rejects to multiple titles. Jordan's original 3-peat run included having guys like Pippen, a guy who made the NBA 50th Anniversary Team, was a 7x All-Star, 10x All Defense Teams, and a 7x All-NBA Team selection. Horace Grant was an All-Star and 4x All Defensive Team, Craig Hodges won multiple 3 point contests, BJ Armstrong was an All-Star, Bill Cartwright was an All-Star. Rodney McCray made two All Defense teams. Not to mention Phil Jackson, regarded as arguably the greatest coach ever, took over the first year of the 3-peat.

One season removed from Jordan fucking off to play baseball, the Bulls went 55-27, so clearly they weren't a team build only on Jordan.

When he came back for the second 3-peat, among some solid role players, he had Pippen still, had Rodman (how you gonna say a team with three future HoFers isn't a super team) at one point had Robert Parish (so a team with 4 future HoFers). Not to mention numerous guys who held coaching roles in the future, including Steve Kerr. They even had Bill Wennington, who was so good Chicago area McDonald's named a sandwich after him.

Jordan never lost in the finals, sure, but he originally could never get past the dominant teams of his era like the Bad Boy Pistons either. LeBron in '07, took a team with basically no one but himself to the Finals. Anyone remember Shannon Brown? Daniel Gibson? Eric Snow? Anyone remember anything Drew Gooden ever did other than get fat and shave off all but that patch of hair on the back of his head? That team had LeBron, Anderson Varejao flopping all over the court, and whatever body parts Cleveland doctors could Frankenstein together to keep Zydrunas Ilgauskas upright. All this while Delonte West was fucking LeBron's mom.