Most Valuable Veteran to the TNA Roster?

[Optimist Prime]

So RVD talks for a minute or two and wrestles for 4 times that and people focus on the shorter part why again? RVD does not have to build the whole match on the mic. Either his opponent can (like sting did) or it can be built through actions. How did you feel about the face AJ of not that long ago? I guarantee you anyone who watched RVD-Joe is thinking about tuning in again. When is the last time Nash did anything that made people want to tune in?

Since when has a build up to a World Championship title match been "a minute or two?" I mean honestly now. You want to make the World Title something to be taken seriously and you give it to a guy with no personality who is going to build it up for "a minute or two?" And 4 times a minute or two is literally 4 minutes to 8 minutes of a match. How entertaining. But the good news is the average pay-per-view match (according to numbers done on the last one) was roughly 10 minutes. But the build up, week by week, still does not equal a minute or two. It's still much longer than that.

Wrestlers like Nash are the reason I starting giving TNA a shot. Wrestlers like Nash are the reason all my friends gave TNA a shot. Wrestlers like Nash are the reason that so many of the older generations of fans that nearly walked away due to a poor product on both sides are giving it one last go-around with the wrestlers they grew up loving that still can entertain (in the ring or outside of it). RVD is certainly not one of these older wrestlers who do this for people. RVD is hanging on to the fact that he can still jump around in the ring. Once he begins to decline (which isn't too far away) he will most certainly be forgotten forever. If there were a ranking system of the careers of these wrestlers...Kevin Nash's would be up near Andre the Giant's while Rob Van Dam's would be down just above Ken Shamrock and just below Hercules Hernandez and Dino Bravo.

 

[shattered dreams]

What does the weight of those from longer ago have to do with their recent actions? I don't quite understand. And what "actions" are you speaking about anyway? Are you insinuating that popular wrestlers in their prime or at least those who can still perform should take a back seat to younger guys right away? Shawn Michaels may be the only guy who (even when he could still perform) changed over to putting over the younger guys for like 8 years straight...and that can be attributed directly to his spirituality and new religion he's found.

The basic idea is just because someone may have been valuable three years ago in a different, or even the same, role does not necessarily make them any more or less valuable presently. Of course I am not insinuating that. In fact the people that constantly suggest that annoy me a lot in IBCland. However, there is a healthy balance. Look at how Kurt Angle tends to bounce in and out of the title picture, all the while putting on matches that make his opponents look good. He maintains his credibility and puts people over at the same time. This is how I want veterans that can still go to perform.

Why are we valuing the veterans solely on whether or not they "put over" the younger wrestlers? That's certainly not the only value they hold. In fact, I think that factor is extremely overrated as most people (I see on here) really dislike the older veteran wrestlers all together. So why would it matter if one of them "put over" a younger wrestler? It wouldn't make the younger wrestler all that much better in your eyes because you didn't think much of the older wrestler in the first place. People who dislike the older generation of wrestlers use strategically use this "putting over the younger guys" slogan as another way of basically saying "I like it when the older wrestlers lose." If you don't like the older wrestlers and don't think they represent much in the first place...how does them losing to a younger wrestler mean anything to you?

First off, that is not their only value. I just said that when looking at a list like we had my personal value assessments heavily focus on if they can make stars or not. Being a not quite as good as the wrestler once was version of themself is simply not enough. Second off, putting people over is not simply about won-loss records. It is quite important how and why someone wins or loses. Both you and the people that annoy both of us make this mistake. The main problem with the guys that cannot pull off a credible match is that when they win they make the young guys look really bad on top of the relatively unbeleivable loss.

As IDR has said in the past. How is Kevin Nash any less of a wrestler now than he was back in his prime? He still has the same great personality and he still wrestles using the same techniques as a brawler. Because he has gray hair and gets injured a little more than he used to that makes him ultimately this horrible person who needs to retire right away?

How does the fact that he always sucked in the ring make him more viable at his age with a detoriated look? He is not as strong as he once was both physically and in appearance (which was a big part of his gimmick). You want to tell me with a straight face he still hits his power moves, especially the jackknife, just like he used to. You want to tell me he used to move this bad in the ring? I like Nash, he can still cut a good promo but he cannot put on a credible match so I have a hard time seeing him being the most valuable just because he did some good stuff for the x-division years ago, especially when since then he has done nothing to help.

And nobody is buying into RVD's personality. Not one person can say with a straight face that RVD has a great wrestling personality. Because it's just not true. They might be overlooking his personality and pretending that in-ring ability is all that matters...but they're only fooling themselves and thinking completely irrationally. There's a whole lot more to flipping and flopping in the ring. It's certainly nice to do that...but when you lack in almost every other area there is other than that...I don't see the big hooplah with the person. Kevin Nash may not be able to do a moonsault off the top rope...but he never could. But he could and still can put on an entertaining match with people while keeping that same great personality.

Please remind me of this entertaining Nash match. There is more to an entertaining match than flipping and flopping your knee in the corner and then flipping and flopping on the ground because you literally cannot stand back up after hurting your knee. Why does RVD have to have a great personality? He already has plus ring skills, so why does he have to have both parts of the equation while Nash gets by with just talking?

And also, what has Kevin Nash done lately? Has he put anyone over? He's not on screen nearly as much - giving the younger guys infinitely more on-air time on purpose. You openly say that it's tricky to know what wrestlers contribute behind the scene but at the same time make up your own mind in regards to Kevin Nash on the subject.

I made no comments about Nash behind the scenes because we do not know. What I do see is his on screen character has not managed to put a single person over since he has returned to the ring. In fact, in that process his on screen character has often done the opposite and ate up time that could have gone to others. Double whammy. I liked Nash in his old role but his on-screen role over the past couple of years has been a detriment not an asset. There are ways that could change because he does still have certain things to offer. The trick is getting the focus on the right things for his present abilities.

If he is so valuable can someone specifically tell me what he has done over the past couple of years that the others on the list have not done?

 

[shattered dreams]

Since when has a build up to a World Championship title match been "a minute or two?" I mean honestly now. You want to make the World Title something to be taken seriously and you give it to a guy with no personality who is going to build it up for "a minute or two?" And 4 times a minute or two is literally 4 minutes to 8 minutes of a match. How entertaining. But the good news is the average pay-per-view match (according to numbers done on the last one) was roughly 10 minutes. But the build up, week by week, still does not equal a minute or two. It's still much longer than that.

Wrestlers like Nash are the reason I starting giving TNA a shot. Wrestlers like Nash are the reason all my friends gave TNA a shot. Wrestlers like Nash are the reason that so many of the older generations of fans that nearly walked away due to a poor product on both sides are giving it one last go-around with the wrestlers they grew up loving that still can entertain (in the ring or outside of it). RVD is certainly not one of these older wrestlers who do this for people. RVD is hanging on to the fact that he can still jump around in the ring. Once he begins to decline (which isn't too far away) he will most certainly be forgotten forever. If there were a ranking system of the careers of these wrestlers...Kevin Nash's would be up near Andre the Giant's while Rob Van Dam's would be down just above Ken Shamrock and just below Hercules Hernandez and Dino Bravo.

Since when does a fighting champion never wrestle a match or matches and brawl some building up to the PPV match. RVD usually wrestles at least one probably two matches building towards a ppv. Those matches easily at least equal the promo time if not exceed it. You were saying people tune in see the promo and leave forever. I was saying if they tune it is just as likely if not more that they see him wrestling, in which case they would be interested. Now if they tune into Nash "wrestling," I would fear they would tune out.

You are crazy if you think RVD does not have a following like Nash did for your generation. Just like Nash pulled you in (I would guess in a non-wrestling role), RVD can pull in people from the next generation. That is why they both have something to offer even if it is very different, just like their careers, looks, wrestling skills, promo skills, etc. Even if Nash had a more impressive career (not quite what you suggest but still better probably) then what does that have to do with what they can contribute now?

 

[Optimist Prime]

The basic idea is just because someone may have been valuable three years ago in a different, or even the same, role does not necessarily make them any more or less valuable presently. Of course I am not insinuating that. In fact the people that constantly suggest that annoy me a lot in IBCland. However, there is a healthy balance. Look at how Kurt Angle tends to bounce in and out of the title picture, all the while putting on matches that make his opponents look good. He maintains his credibility and puts people over at the same time. This is how I want veterans that can still go to perform.

Kurt Angle is still fairly young (when compared to the other veterans). Expecting all of the significantly older veterans to perform to the caliber of Kurt Angle is just impossible and absolute wild expectations. Secondly, Kurt Angle can still wrestle perfectly fine. I don't know why he would be "putting over" that many people...BUT if somebody were to "put a wrestler over" it would be Kurt Angle as he's still relevant in most TNA fans eyes. Kevin Nash, on the other hand, doesn't need to put anybody over because - according to you - he's irrelevant, old, and can't wrestle regardless...so who cares if a younger wrestler beats him right?

First off, that is not their only value. I just said that when looking at a list like we had my personal value assessments heavily focus on if they can make stars or not. Being a not quite as good as the wrestler once was version of themself is simply not enough. Second off, putting people over is not simply about won-loss records. It is quite important how and why someone wins or loses. Both you and the people that annoy both of us make this mistake. The main problem with the guys that cannot pull off a credible match is that when they win they make the young guys look really bad on top of the relatively unbeleivable loss.

I agree with you on what you're saying about putting people over. I just don't see how Kevin Nash hasn't been doing this. As you've stated, he isn't this young spry wrestler who is going to put on the performance of a lifetime in the ring. His whole image was that he was a gigantic badass bar brawler who just beat ass in the ring. Thinking that he can't do this just because he has gray hair is misleading and unfair. I'm certain that you wouldn't want to piss him off in person if he were near you. It's still believable that a 6'10", 350 lb, 50 year old man kick the shit out of you. Believe me.

How does the fact that he always sucked in the ring make him more viable at his age with a detoriated look? He is not as strong as he once was both physically and in appearance (which was a big part of his gimmick). You want to tell me with a straight face he still hits his power moves, especially the jackknife, just like he used to. You want to tell me he used to move this bad in the ring? I like Nash, he can still cut a good promo but he cannot put on a credible match so I have a hard time seeing him being the most valuable just because he did some good stuff for the x-division years ago, especially when since then he has done nothing to help.

Always sucked in the ring according to who? At the very least his matches were mediocre...but they certainly weren't awful. He did, and still does, just beat ass in the ring. That's what he does and he did that better than anybody else. Just because you don't feel that a 6'10" beating the shit out of somebody is realistic or believable doesn't mean everybody else doesn't. I certainly think a 6'10", 350 lb man beating ass in the ring is more believable than a 5'6", 220 lb man rolling around in the ring beating up everybody in sight...that's for sure.

Please remind me of this entertaining Nash match. There is more to an entertaining match than flipping and flopping your knee in the corner and then flipping and flopping on the ground because you literally cannot stand back up after hurting your knee. Why does RVD have to have a great personality? He already has plus ring skills, so why does he have to have both parts of the equation while Nash gets by with just talking?

I'm hoping that you've been told that wrestling isn't real. Everything is orchestrated as if it were a movie or play (yes I'm aware of the dangers and real stuff wrestling includes too). Personality is the main attraction that makes the person. If you like actual wrestling moves and top rope jumping - go to a high school wrestling match and top it off with a trip to the circus. Secondly, Kevin Nash has incredible personality and tolerable matches. RVD has above average skills in the ring (nothing mind blowing though) and an absolutely intolerable personality. It's beyond horrible. So THAT is why Kevin Nash gets away with it and RVD doesn't. When you add it all up - Kevin Nash is just way better than RVD and it's not even close. Not to mention Personality outweighs In-Ring ability in general...which is why people like Kevin Nash make it to the top right away and stay there...and guys like RVD need to wait for a time period where the belt is thrown around like a hot potato to get it for even a quick moment. Also, it's why people like Santino still have a job and why others without any personality (but who can wrestle) don't.

I made no comments about Nash behind the scenes because we do not know. What I do see is his on screen character has not managed to put a single person over since he has returned to the ring. In fact, in that process his on screen character has often done the opposite and ate up time that could have gone to others. Double whammy. I liked Nash in his old role but his on-screen role over the past couple of years has been a detriment not an asset. There are ways that could change because he does still have certain things to offer. The trick is getting the focus on the right things for his present abilities.

But in a sentence above you made a point to talk about how "putting over people" isn't everything...didn't you? And what time period are you talking about here? You're kind of contradicting yourself all over the place here. You're saying that Kevin Nash hasn't done much to help...but at the same time you've stated that he's hogged television time in the past and hadn't "put over" any younger guys. Meanwhile, he's been off-screen quite a lot these days...and you're asking the question "what has he done lately?" yet again.

If he is so valuable can someone specifically tell me what he has done over the past couple of years that the others on the list have not done?

I've explained everything IN DETAIL in my initial post with my pick for the poll on who's the most valuable. Go back and read it and then ask yourself...who else can offer more out of those guys in that group.

 

[Optimist Prime]

Since when does a fighting champion never wrestle a match or matches and brawl some building up to the PPV match. RVD usually wrestles at least one probably two matches building towards a ppv. Those matches easily at least equal the promo time if not exceed it. You were saying people tune in see the promo and leave forever. I was saying if they tune it is just as likely if not more that they see him wrestling, in which case they would be interested. Now if they tune into Nash "wrestling," I would fear they would tune out.

I never once said people tune in to watch the promo and then "leave forever". My point was that the build up is the suspense part that leads up to the match. That's what grabs the viewer. That's WHY they do the build up in the first place. If promos were unnecessary or not valuable...they simply wouldn't need to have them at all and there would be just one wrestling match after another and you'd never know anything about anybody and just rate who you like the most based on their flipping and flopping. So you may actually love this idea after all.

You are crazy if you think RVD does not have a following like Nash did for your generation. Just like Nash pulled you in (I would guess in a non-wrestling role), RVD can pull in people from the next generation. That is why they both have something to offer even if it is very different, just like their careers, looks, wrestling skills, promo skills, etc. Even if Nash had a more impressive career (not quite what you suggest but still better probably) then what does that have to do with what they can contribute now?

The problem is...RVD is in the same generation as Kevin Nash is in!! That's the problem right there. He's not some spring chicken who just entered the business trying to make a name for himself...which is what he's trying to make it look like is happening. He's in his 40's! He's been around for YEARS! And for the majority of those years he was a mid card wrestler who brought mediocrity to the table. Why would TNA want to have a 40-something year old man, with ZERO personality, be the face of their company for fans to follow around?? THAT is what I'm having a problem with. If he was in his 20's...fine. I'd trick myself into thinking maybe someday he'd find a personality down the line...but he's not. He, like Nash, is part of a declining and aging generation of wrestlers. The difference is...Nash had a FAR better career.

 

[candy girl]

i'll take hulk anyday, and like someone pointed out earlier, his personal problems has nothing to do with his career, everybody and every family has problems every one at some point in their lives is going to get spit on, get kicked, picked on talked about, trashed the whole nine yards, it's just part of life, but you deal with it and move on, which is what hulk has been trying to do, but the effect of the dumb ass media, and his ex bimbo of a wife, not to mention the count-less trolls that venture on these websites whether wrestling or gossip, refuse to let that happen, however he's a smart man and shouldn't let the media gossip, nor the trolls on the internet, prevent him from moving on and having a happy life.

 

[TheBWO]

I will, and probably will forever be a Raven mark. I say that because he's someone who was allowed to be creative and showcase some of the better angles, ring psychology (if there really is such a thing), and how to work a promo---even if it means being honest with the fans, instead of kayfabe. If it were me in TNA, and I was an up and comer,.....or a young buck that had been given some airtime to showcase whatever it is I need to showcase (i.e. if I were X division, a manager, whatever the case), I definately would be asking Scott Levy what it is I could do to get noticed and get attention. No, he may not have the notoriety of a Hogan, or the body of an Angle (and no disrespect to either of those two), but I honestly feel he knows what works and what doesn't. Ever since he left ECW, -- to my knowledge----he wasn't given much of a backstage position, with the exception of making those crazy labeled matches in TNA'S beginning (Clockwork Orange house of whatever). He at least tries to keep it interesting and real. I really think whether you like him or you don't, at one time he was someone who was a workhorse everywhere he went and gave alot to the industry. Sorry.,...but him being "fugly" has little or no impact of his ability.

 

[The Man Of 1004 Holds]

i went for sting. there are a few reasons why

1 he was the face of wcw for years bringing credibility
2 multiple time champion at all levels so he can be against anyone
3 hes the one person on the list thats never been in the E so no one can say he is a WWE reject
4 he makes average wrestlers look like stars

 

[shattered dreams]

Kurt Angle is still fairly young (when compared to the other veterans). Expecting all of the significantly older veterans to perform to the caliber of Kurt Angle is just impossible and absolute wild expectations. Secondly, Kurt Angle can still wrestle perfectly fine. I don't know why he would be "putting over" that many people...BUT if somebody were to "put a wrestler over" it would be Kurt Angle as he's still relevant in most TNA fans eyes. Kevin Nash, on the other hand, doesn't need to put anybody over because - according to you - he's irrelevant, old, and can't wrestle regardless...so who cares if a younger wrestler beats him right?

Kurt Angle is two years older than RVD FWIW. I do not expect all veterans to perform as well as Kurt Angle. What I expect is that when they get past their prime that they put the ego aside and be booked as such. If you cannot have a match that makes both people look good then there is no point to you being in the ring, especially high on the card. What I am advocatig is veterans that can still wrestle and have their old personality. The personality by itself is not enough when the wrestling ability makes it hard to elevate the younger guys. The old guys can win all they want if they can work at a level that does not bury the young guys when they lose. IMO Nash is struggling with this problem. You are right about not caring too much if a young guy beats him in most scenarios. However, your conclusion is curious. My conclusion is that he should not be wrestling if he cannot make people care when he is defeated that it means something.

I agree with you on what you're saying about putting people over. I just don't see how Kevin Nash hasn't been doing this. As you've stated, he isn't this young spry wrestler who is going to put on the performance of a lifetime in the ring. His whole image was that he was a gigantic badass bar brawler who just beat ass in the ring. Thinking that he can't do this just because he has gray hair is misleading and unfair. I'm certain that you wouldn't want to piss him off in person if he were near you. It's still believable that a 6'10", 350 lb, 50 year old man kick the shit out of you. Believe me.

Look is important for a badass. Do they hire bouncers that do not look the part? Height is merely part of the equation. I would not fight Nash but I have every confidence I could easily stay out of his reach through agility and speed while taunting him if I desired to. He lacks the power to be convincing in that gimmick anymore. If he had to start on the ground then I probably would not be scared to fight him because it seems unlikely he would be able to get back up. His movement and look have killed the suspension of disbelief for me.

The question remains, since Nash returned to the ring who has he put over?

Always sucked in the ring according to who? At the very least his matches were mediocre...but they certainly weren't awful. He did, and still does, just beat ass in the ring. That's what he does and he did that better than anybody else. Just because you don't feel that a 6'10" beating the shit out of somebody is realistic or believable doesn't mean everybody else doesn't. I certainly think a 6'10", 350 lb man beating ass in the ring is more believable than a 5'6", 220 lb man rolling around in the ring beating up everybody in sight...that's for sure.

I was commenting on the no worse than he ever was type comments. Agreed that credibility is subjective, just like your opinon of RVD and charisma is. However, there is also the issue of someone defeating opponents that are not undersized and also happen to be half his age that is somewhat less believable.

I'm hoping that you've been told that wrestling isn't real. Everything is orchestrated as if it were a movie or play (yes I'm aware of the dangers and real stuff wrestling includes too). Personality is the main attraction that makes the person. If you like actual wrestling moves and top rope jumping - go to a high school wrestling match and top it off with a trip to the circus. Secondly, Kevin Nash has incredible personality and tolerable matches. RVD has above average skills in the ring (nothing mind blowing though) and an absolutely intolerable personality. It's beyond horrible. So THAT is why Kevin Nash gets away with it and RVD doesn't. When you add it all up - Kevin Nash is just way better than RVD and it's not even close. Not to mention Personality outweighs In-Ring ability in general...which is why people like Kevin Nash make it to the top right away and stay there...and guys like RVD need to wait for a time period where the belt is thrown around like a hot potato to get it for even a quick moment. Also, it's why people like Santino still have a job and why others without any personality (but who can wrestle) don't.

So earlier you said, "But he could and still can put on an entertaining match with people while keeping that same great personality." And now you say, "Kevin Nash has incredible personality and tolerable matches." Which one is it. I could believe you think his matches are tolerable but to me that is very different from entertaining. While Nash still has mic skills he has not translated them into anything since the main event mafia broke up. No memorable promo since then IMO. No memorable match or feud since he returned to the ring IMO. And yes you ruined my day by telling me that wrestling is scripted. I had no idea.

But in a sentence above you made a point to talk about how "putting over people" isn't everything...didn't you? And what time period are you talking about here? You're kind of contradicting yourself all over the place here. You're saying that Kevin Nash hasn't done much to help...but at the same time you've stated that he's hogged television time in the past and hadn't "put over" any younger guys. Meanwhile, he's been off-screen quite a lot these days...and you're asking the question "what has he done lately?" yet again.

I have always been talking about since he started wrestling again. I do not know if he has been off tv giving the young guys a chance as much as you think. He won the tag titles 2 1/2 months ago.

I've explained everything IN DETAIL in my initial post with my pick for the poll on who's the most valuable. Go back and read it and then ask yourself...who else can offer more out of those guys in that group.

There are no details in that post that I can see. It is mostly generalities about political excuses, personality and time at the top. Please explain how Hogan was not better at all of those things if it is a single lead by example scenario.

Even his x-division days seem somewhat overrated. Who did he work with guru, lethal and MCMG. Guru is gone, Lethal's machismo gimmick fizzled out without him getting anywhere and kind of sent his career into purgatory for years until Flair put him over huge in a matter of months and MCMG never got a boost until years later (possibly with dreamer backing) and even then Nash won the tag titles before MCMG.

I never once said people tune in to watch the promo and then "leave forever". My point was that the build up is the suspense part that leads up to the match. That's what grabs the viewer. That's WHY they do the build up in the first place. If promos were unnecessary or not valuable...they simply wouldn't need to have them at all and there would be just one wrestling match after another and you'd never know anything about anybody and just rate who you like the most based on their flipping and flopping. So you may actually love this idea after all.

Well you did say, "What new potential TNA viewer is going to put on Spike TV...watch RVD stumble through one of his routine boring speeches and continue watching week after week - let alone keep that channel on for any further?" Not sure how that is so very different. Your weird idea that no one cares about the wrestling in the matches is pretty crazy. If you ask people what got them hooked on TNA, the X-division surely comes up more than Kevin Nash. There are pros and cons to that style for sure but it definitely interested people.

The problem is...RVD is in the same generation as Kevin Nash is in!! That's the problem right there. He's not some spring chicken who just entered the business trying to make a name for himself...which is what he's trying to make it look like is happening. He's in his 40's! He's been around for YEARS! And for the majority of those years he was a mid card wrestler who brought mediocrity to the table. Why would TNA want to have a 40-something year old man, with ZERO personality, be the face of their company for fans to follow around?? THAT is what I'm having a problem with. If he was in his 20's...fine. I'd trick myself into thinking maybe someday he'd find a personality down the line...but he's not. He, like Nash, is part of a declining and aging generation of wrestlers. The difference is...Nash had a FAR better career.

RVD is not in his 40s. RVD is over 11 years younger than Nash. That could span a generation. RVD appeals heavily to the started on the attitude era crowd while Nash draws his appeal to those that started before then.

 

[PhD]

I doubt that anyone will be reading this far down, but I voted for Kevin Nash. I was pleasantly surprised to see him as the top vote-getter, because I found him the obvious choice, not only because of the reasons enumerated by many others above, but because I actually still enjoy watching him.

Sure, he's usually shit in the ring (one of my first painful memories of watching TNA was seeing him and Foley moving at a snails pace in a bout for the Legends strap), but he can still cut a great promo. Also, unlike most people in TNA, he has retained a coherent persona, and his letcher gimmick really offsets a lot of the negative aspects of his aging as a performer.

 

[theMaskednwker]

how about a home grown veteran like A.J. Styles. He has grown with the company since the beginning and might be the best in ring performer tna has. He is also versatile like Jericho and Michaels in that he can main event any show or be a solid midcarder putting people over. Young talent can see from styles that you can become a star in tna, while those other vets can only teaach the youth that tna is a place for lazy wrestlers can come to make money on a lighter schedule after they made it big with vince.

 

[Optimist Prime]

Kurt Angle is two years older than RVD FWIW. I do not expect all veterans to perform as well as Kurt Angle. What I expect is that when they get past their prime that they put the ego aside and be booked as such. If you cannot have a match that makes both people look good then there is no point to you being in the ring, especially high on the card. What I am advocatig is veterans that can still wrestle and have their old personality. The personality by itself is not enough when the wrestling ability makes it hard to elevate the younger guys. The old guys can win all they want if they can work at a level that does not bury the young guys when they lose. IMO Nash is struggling with this problem. You are right about not caring too much if a young guy beats him in most scenarios. However, your conclusion is curious. My conclusion is that he should not be wrestling if he cannot make people care when he is defeated that it means something.

I stand corrected on the age of Kurt Angle. I figured he was close in age but didn't know he was older. Then again, I haven't seen him doing quite the moves he used to do either...but whatever. Claiming that wrestlers who can't have a match that makes both people look good shouldn't be wrestling is crazy talk because 90% of the wrestlers past and present couldn't do that. Which means, by your logic, only 10% of them would have wrestled and still be wrestling - if wrestling were still able to stay in business with all the downsizing.

Look is important for a badass. Do they hire bouncers that do not look the part? Height is merely part of the equation. I would not fight Nash but I have every confidence I could easily stay out of his reach through agility and speed while taunting him if I desired to. He lacks the power to be convincing in that gimmick anymore. If he had to start on the ground then I probably would not be scared to fight him because it seems unlikely he would be able to get back up. His movement and look have killed the suspension of disbelief for me.

Ever see the movie Roadhouse? Kevin Nash reminds me of Wade Garrett (he even actually looks like him too except Nash is significantly bigger and stronger). Wade Garrett was the old widely known veteran bar bouncer that everybody knew and everybody feared based on reputation and through experience. He wasn't quite the same as he once was...because he was older...but he could still give a mean ass whooping. This is exactly what I think about Nash.

The question remains, since Nash returned to the ring who has he put over?

Why is this even a question? Why is this such a big deal? Like I've stated many times...if you don't take Nash seriously...why would you take a younger wrestler beating him so seriously? and why would you care who he puts over?

I was commenting on the no worse than he ever was type comments. Agreed that credibility is subjective, just like your opinon of RVD and charisma is. However, there is also the issue of someone defeating opponents that are not undersized and also happen to be half his age that is somewhat less believable.

RVD isn't even close to half Nash's age though. They are 10 years apart. And a 50 year old who is 6'10" and 350+ lbs and a bar brawler still beating ass is a lot more believable than a 40 year old 5'6" small and portly man prancing around like a ballerina in the ring beating everybody up.

So earlier you said, "But he could and still can put on an entertaining match with people while keeping that same great personality." And now you say, "Kevin Nash has incredible personality and tolerable matches." Which one is it. I could believe you think his matches are tolerable but to me that is very different from entertaining. While Nash still has mic skills he has not translated them into anything since the main event mafia broke up. No memorable promo since then IMO. No memorable match or feud since he returned to the ring IMO. And yes you ruined my day by telling me that wrestling is scripted. I had no idea.

I meant what I said. Kevin Nash can put on an entertaining match. I never said ALL of them were entertaining. Then I followed up with the overall value of his matches in general as "tolerable" (at the very least). I don't see how this is confusing whatsoever. And he hasn't had any memorable promos in a while because he's taking time off of the screen to give the spotlight to some of these younger wrestlers - which is ironically something you're claiming Kevin Nash doesn't do because he doesn't "put over" the wrestlers instead.

I have always been talking about since he started wrestling again. I do not know if he has been off tv giving the young guys a chance as much as you think. He won the tag titles 2 1/2 months ago.

He won the tag titles so he could do EXACTLY what you're claiming he isn't doing. The whole idea was to place the belts on one of the greatest tag teams in wrestling history...so that one of the younger tag teams would beat them and be PUT OVER. What the hell does Kevin Nash care if he's a tag team champion these days? I'm sure he wasn't pleading in the back for the chance to be a tag champ again. These are carefully orchestrated things. The only reason this DIDN'T happen is because of Scott Hall's personal issues.

There are no details in that post that I can see. It is mostly generalities about political excuses, personality and time at the top. Please explain how Hogan was not better at all of those things if it is a single lead by example scenario.

Hogan WAS better in all of those things...but his overall appearance these days has been hindered by his personal issues at home. I absolutely love Hulk Hogan and feel he's the greatest face and heel in the history of wrestling...but he exploited himself too much to the point where it wasn't as nostalgic and cool to see him as much when he did come out of the entrance way like he used to. If all of his personal problems and exploitations didn't happen...we wouldn't be having this discussion. It would be Hogan all the way.

Even his x-division days seem somewhat overrated. Who did he work with guru, lethal and MCMG. Guru is gone, Lethal's machismo gimmick fizzled out without him getting anywhere and kind of sent his career into purgatory for years until Flair put him over huge in a matter of months and MCMG never got a boost until years later (possibly with dreamer backing) and even then Nash won the tag titles before MCMG.

See what I wrote about the tag titles above. And you're calling him overrated for something you also claim he does nothing for. So he never ever puts over anybody...but when he does...it's very overrated because the handful of guys he had under his wing in the X-Division didn't immediately become main eventers overnight. I see.

Well you did say, "What new potential TNA viewer is going to put on Spike TV...watch RVD stumble through one of his routine boring speeches and continue watching week after week - let alone keep that channel on for any further?" Not sure how that is so very different. Your weird idea that no one cares about the wrestling in the matches is pretty crazy. If you ask people what got them hooked on TNA, the X-division surely comes up more than Kevin Nash. There are pros and cons to that style for sure but it definitely interested people.

Yeah, and there was a small sample size of people who loved ECW for what it was too...but guess what. ECW lasted only one more year than TNA has under their belt right now. ECW lasted 9 years and then immediately crashed and burned because they couldn't compete with the big dogs. Not because they were worse...but because they focused on one niche in the wrestling business while the others had everything all wrapped into one.

RVD is not in his 40s. RVD is over 11 years younger than Nash. That could span a generation. RVD appeals heavily to the started on the attitude era crowd while Nash draws his appeal to those that started before then.

So when Nash was RVD's age and RVD was nearly 30...that's a completely different generation? Or even 5 years before that when Nash was in his mid 30's and RVD was in his mid 20's? Seems like they've been around together for quite a while...a lot longer than when they weren't around together...that's for sure.

 

[flocker]

I was a huge ecw fan. Still am a major Raven mark. Loved RVD back when he did his heel turn as "Mr Monday Night".

Seems like a nice enough stoner. I wish him the best.

Mostly what he provides TNA with right now is nostalgia. They put the strap on him in a hot shot booking because wwe raw was stuck in a volcano, right? And to start to move AJ away from that rediculous Flair mini me angle he had.

But what EXACTLY is RVD doing that is so valuable? His matches are good, but not great. His promos are, well, the best thing you can say about them is "short". He's carrying the strap, but that's a bigger advantage for him than TNA. The main thing that RVD does right now is ... Keep the belt on an edgy, established face WHO ISN'T UNDER FEDERAL CHARGES. They booked themselves into a corner where they were going to put the title on Rob or Jeff. They made the right choice.

Right now, which veteran is doing the most for TNA? Seriously, other than Kurt, its gotta be Flair or Nash.

Not so seriously, Al Snow. Why? Road agent for the knocouts. That does mean "pimp", right?

What does everybody want? What does everybody need?

 

[shattered dreams]

I stand corrected on the age of Kurt Angle. I figured he was close in age but didn't know he was older. Then again, I haven't seen him doing quite the moves he used to do either...but whatever. Claiming that wrestlers who can't have a match that makes both people look good shouldn't be wrestling is crazy talk because 90% of the wrestlers past and present couldn't do that. Which means, by your logic, only 10% of them would have wrestled and still be wrestling - if wrestling were still able to stay in business with all the downsizing.

What is it that Angle cannot do that he used to? IMO if anything he has expanded his arsenal. I think a lot more wrestlers than you are giving credit for can have matches that make both people look good. It is not as hard as you are making it out to be. I believe Hulk Hogan said something similar to what I am talking about when he came to TNA and he has a slightly higher credibility level on the wrestling industry than you or me.

Why is this even a question? Why is this such a big deal? Like I've stated many times...if you don't take Nash seriously...why would you take a younger wrestler beating him so seriously? and why would you care who he puts over?

Are you still thinking "put over" simply means "lost to"? Do you not think it is hurting your case that you have yet to provide one example and consistently dodge this question? If he is doing all this obvious good why can no one provide a single actual example that happened in the last three years? He cut one or two decent promos towards the end of the MEM, a group he was third fiddle at best in, and had no distinguishable matches. When you think about the fact he got a raise to go back in the ring I have a real hard time thinking they are getting their moneys worth. That does not scream MVP to me.

RVD isn't even close to half Nash's age though. They are 10 years apart. And a 50 year old who is 6'10" and 350+ lbs and a bar brawler still beating ass is a lot more believable than a 40 year old 5'6" small and portly man prancing around like a ballerina in the ring beating everybody up.

Why do you keep saying RVD is 5'6"? It is not helping the credibility of your "I am not exaggerating" stance." He is billed at 6 foot and that seems about right to me. He also appears to be in good shape unlike nash.

I meant what I said. Kevin Nash can put on an entertaining match. I never said ALL of them were entertaining. Then I followed up with the overall value of his matches in general as "tolerable" (at the very least). I don't see how this is confusing whatsoever. And he hasn't had any memorable promos in a while because he's taking time off of the screen to give the spotlight to some of these younger wrestlers - which is ironically something you're claiming Kevin Nash doesn't do because he doesn't "put over" the wrestlers instead.

So Nash takes some time off over the past few months and that excuses him not doing anything distinguishable on the mic for the whole year before that when he was clearly on tv?

Hogan WAS better in all of those things...but his overall appearance these days has been hindered by his personal issues at home. I absolutely love Hulk Hogan and feel he's the greatest face and heel in the history of wrestling...but he exploited himself too much to the point where it wasn't as nostalgic and cool to see him as much when he did come out of the entrance way like he used to. If all of his personal problems and exploitations didn't happen...we wouldn't be having this discussion. It would be Hogan all the way.

But I thought this was about teaching the young guys in the back about these things. I do not see how Hogan's issues outside the wrestling business keep him from doing that.

See what I wrote about the tag titles above. And you're calling him overrated for something you also claim he does nothing for. So he never ever puts over anybody...but when he does...it's very overrated because the handful of guys he had under his wing in the X-Division didn't immediately become main eventers overnight. I see.

I am simply pointing out his putting them over did not actually work and then he basically abandoned them to go muck around in the upper mid card. So he was essentially in one of those spots. Those guys got over by other people on the list. Why is Nash helping them some back then a huge part of making him more valuable than the people that actually got them over?



The main reason I am defending RVD is that I believe his ability to still wrestle close to the ability that made him a star is crucial to TNA. They have no problem recruiting the "legends" that cannot really wrestle anymore at a consistent high level. Maybe some people enjoy the Nash persona, or Flair or Foley or others but the point is there are a lot to choose from. These guys are great for convincing their fans of yesteryear to give TNA a chance and then get hooked on the up and coming talent. However, when there are a lot of these veteran legends they each detract some from the relative value of the others. What sets RVD apart is that he can still be a credible world champion look and wrestling ability wise. It is rare for TNA to be able to get veterans with strong histories that people still want to see in the ring high on the card. That is why I think RVD is more valuable than many of the others.

 

[ForzaItalia]

I voted RVD because of his ability in the ring to make the other person in the ring look so good. The people just care about RVD so much that when someone like Abyss hurts him they draw instant heat. This is why I gave RVD my vote.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I'm not sure if you could label him a "veteran" when compared to most of the other names there. However, I had to pick "other" and go with Kurt Angle. Kurt Angle coming to TNA was really the first big coup for the company I think and his presence seemed to indicate that, to some degree, TNA had arrived. You couldn't just say that TNA was this little rinky dink company that was going to simply blink out and fade away. It made some people look at TNA in a different way. Even though Angle was a bit older when he came to TNA, he was still very much relevant and very much a superstar. He was every bit as good on the mic and in the ring as he'd always been and, overall, is to this day probably the best overall pro wrestler on the TNA roster. Angle was also able to accomplish something that none of these other veterans that've come to TNA can really boast doing: Kurt Angle's presence in TNA actually managed to help increase the size of TNA's audience. If I'm not mistaken, I think TNA breaking the 1.0 barrier didn't occur until after Angle's arrival with the company. I'm not saying that Angle scored record ratings or anything, but more people were watching TNA than there had been before and they continued to watch.

While I do give Angle what I feel is legitimate grief sometimes about constantly being in the TNA World Heavyweight Championship picture, there's no doubting the man's capabilities. Some of his matches with AJ Styles, Samoa Joe & Desmond Wolfe are classics as far as I'm concerned. Even though Desmond Wolfe has been used for shit throughout 2010, his feud with Angle late last year did a lot for him. Working with Angle showed how capable Wolfe is and kept the opinion of fans high for Wolfe, despite his misuse.

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Ya no IDR...when I read the thread title..I was thinking...what an obvious question...but then I read that you excluded Kurt Angle and then I thought..hmm quite tricky...

So I have to pick and vote...Kevin Nash...he has always worked with the younger talent and has erally helped them and to them he really must be respected...

I also have to say Sting gets a mention here...being the Icon he is...he must really get some huge amount of respect in the back...those 2 are the most valuable...and Sting can be relied on to put on a few good matches aswell...

Oh and Jack Hammer above me, IDR said he had excluded Angle from the post...since it was an obvious choice..

 

[Kenny Powers]

Jarrett and Angle are the obvious choices since Jarrett founded TNA and Angle has done everything to put TNA on the map. I understand why Kevin Nash was picked since he has helped a lot of the younger talent in TNA. If Tommy Dreamer sticks with TNA and actually takes charge of creative then he could be a valuable asset in the future. For now I will have say Sting. Sting has been a leader in TNA, helping them achieve success before Kurt Angle was even there. Sting has done a lot to push young talent and put TNA's name out there. Sting can always be called up and even with his age still put on good matches with anyone on the roster.

Besides Angle and Jarrett, I will go with Sting.

 

[Rafather]

Rick Flair

The guy is a master of the wrestling word. He hasn't lost a step since moving from WCW to WWE and now TNA. Every wrestler should get as many tapes of his promo work as possible and study them. The same way a football player studies game film. He might not be able to move in the ring as good, but he can still act and sell every move.

After Flair, Kevin Nash for all the reasons that have been posted.

raf

 

[Optimist Prime]

First of all...this would have been pretty good for that Great Debater's thing going on in the TNA vs. WWE thread. I think we're having a pretty professional and mutually respectful argument here...regardless of our personal opinions sometimes getting in the way.

What is it that Angle cannot do that he used to? IMO if anything he has expanded his arsenal. I think a lot more wrestlers than you are giving credit for can have matches that make both people look good. It is not as hard as you are making it out to be. I believe Hulk Hogan said something similar to what I am talking about when he came to TNA and he has a slightly higher credibility level on the wrestling industry than you or me.

I mean perhaps? But sometimes it's not always about the moves in the match...it's about other things. Like if you look back to Nash's match against Hogan (Can't remember if it was Road Wild or something later - it was when Hogan brought back the Red and Yellow though). You watch that match just randomly right now and it kind of seems terrible...but I remember at the time I was SO involved in it. My friends older brother wanted Hogan to lose so badly and my friend and I were such Hogan buff's we were at the edge of our seat rooting for Hogan...especially since he just put back on the Red and Yellow. Once Kevin Nash hit the Jacknife, my friends brother jumped up and laughed in our faces and screamed "It's Over!!"...no no no...one Jacknife isn't going to hold "The Immortal" Hulk Hogan down. He kicked out and my friend and I erupted...despite the lack of high flying moves and...well...many moves at all in general...it was what the match represented that made it so exciting. You had two gigantic legends in the ring facing one another...finishers galore...kickouts of those finishers...and the Immortal one coming up with the win. It may have not been pretty...but at the time it was certainly entertaining for a fan of the old guard. I also remember Nash vs. Undertaker at Wrestlemania XII...and the build up to that was absolute magic. At one of the previous pay-per-views...Kevin Nash was facing Bret Hart in a steel cage match...and all of the sudden at the end of the match the Undertaker comes through the bottom of the ring and pulls Kevin Nash under the ring...smoke comes out of the hole...and the match ends. The match that followed, one of Nash's final matches (his final WM), between the two of them was pretty entertaining as well. It's all about your perspective on things. If you turn on a match hoping and wishing for nonstop flipping and rolling - you're simply never going to get that with the big guys. So you shouldn't set your expectations nearly as high in that respect.

Are you still thinking "put over" simply means "lost to"? Do you not think it is hurting your case that you have yet to provide one example and consistently dodge this question? If he is doing all this obvious good why can no one provide a single actual example that happened in the last three years? He cut one or two decent promos towards the end of the MEM, a group he was third fiddle at best in, and had no distinguishable matches. When you think about the fact he got a raise to go back in the ring I have a real hard time thinking they are getting their moneys worth. That does not scream MVP to me.

You, yourself, were bringing up the fact that he demanded he win the tag titles again. I brought up the logical perspective of WHY he was given the tag titles...which makes a hell of a lot more sense than Kevin Nash, a multiple time World Heavyweight Champion, and 50 year old man - DEMANDING that he win the tag team titles for no reason. That just doesn't add up to me.

Why do you keep saying RVD is 5'6"? It is not helping the credibility of your "I am not exaggerating" stance." He is billed at 6 foot and that seems about right to me. He also appears to be in good shape unlike nash.

He's billed at 6' which means he's probably 2 inches shorter than that at least. I've seen other biographies that have him at 5'10" and some even less. But sure, for your sake, he might not be 5'6".

So Nash takes some time off over the past few months and that excuses him not doing anything distinguishable on the mic for the whole year before that when he was clearly on tv?

I don't recall Nash being on tv all that much for that "whole year" you're talking about either. He knows his limits. He's a 6'10" 50 year old man...he can only run around with these younger guys so often. But that doesn't mean he isn't doing anything to help the business.

But I thought this was about teaching the young guys in the back about these things. I do not see how Hogan's issues outside the wrestling business keep him from doing that.

I was strictly talking about Hogan's image on screen. Since you weren't giving Nash any credit whatsoever for what he's been doing in the back since you didn't know...I don't see how you can scrap all that and claim to know specifically what Hogan is doing in the back in the same breath. I'm sure Hogan is doing great things in the back...but I was very honest when I stated that Hogan's personal issues hurt his on-screen presence - where Kevin Nash's on-screen presence has remained in tact.

I am simply pointing out his putting them over did not actually work and then he basically abandoned them to go muck around in the upper mid card. So he was essentially in one of those spots. Those guys got over by other people on the list. Why is Nash helping them some back then a huge part of making him more valuable than the people that actually got them over?

I don't really understand the last part of this. Your definition for "putting over" seems to difffer based on your argument and whatever will benefit you at the time. You don't know what Kevin Nash has done in the back...but then you sternly claim that he hasn't helped anybody at all later on in the argument. If you don't remember, once Bischoff and Hogan came in...basically all those gimmicks prior (including the ones of the guys that Nash had helped) were as if they never happened to some degree. This is not Nash's fault.

The main reason I am defending RVD is that I believe his ability to still wrestle close to the ability that made him a star is crucial to TNA. They have no problem recruiting the "legends" that cannot really wrestle anymore at a consistent high level. Maybe some people enjoy the Nash persona, or Flair or Foley or others but the point is there are a lot to choose from. These guys are great for convincing their fans of yesteryear to give TNA a chance and then get hooked on the up and coming talent. However, when there are a lot of these veteran legends they each detract some from the relative value of the others. What sets RVD apart is that he can still be a credible world champion look and wrestling ability wise. It is rare for TNA to be able to get veterans with strong histories that people still want to see in the ring high on the card. That is why I think RVD is more valuable than many of the others.

I will agree that RVD has the ability to still wrestle. I agree that bringing legends in that cannot really wrestle anymore still has advantages. I disagree that legends come in and detract value from others. This is a common misconception based on the embellished rumors that there were significant political games in the past. Personally, whether there were or not, I think a lot of it got blown out of proportion by guys who didn't have nearly as much talent or persona as an excuse to cope with...so it didn't look like they had any responsibility in their own failures. It must have been somebody else's fault. I'm not denying that there wasn't politics going on in the back...but there is in every business. That's human nature. But I think it was certainly blown out of proportion to the point where it has unfairly tainted the reputations of the legends...and I do believe a lot of your distrust for some of them is a direct reflection of these stories in some cases.

I also disagree, heavily, that RVD is a credible World Champion. Especially right now. A company who is trying to make themselves known isn't going to grab many more viewers having somebody with literally no personality as World Champion. The current handful of TNA mongers can defend him all they want and pretend like he's some savior...but the fact of the matter is that they have to use common sense. Rob Van Dam putting people to sleep in his build ups on a constant basis isn't going to attract new viewers. He's just not. And his wrestling abilities aren't THAT great to where his mic skills don't matter as much. John Morrison has a better look and much better ability than RVD and he has equally as horrendous a personality but gets no love. Why is that? Perhaps it's because RVD benefitted from circumstance. In a small niche company like ECW, RVD stood out with his stoner like persona and unique move set (when compared to guys like Tommy Dreamer, Chris Candido, Shane Douglas, etc.) This then gave him some cult following that picked up when he went to WWE. In an example, WMX8 - Hulk Hogan was a heel and The Rock was a BIG face at the time...but that didn't matter at WMX8. The crowd cheered for Hogan and booed The Rock beyond belief. And did everybody in the arena get together the night before and decide to do this the next night collectively? No. But a large group of fans began to do it and the rest of the fans felt the fire and started doing it too. Because that's what happens. And that's what happened with RVD at the time. But clearly RVD isn't Hulk Hogan so we'd have to divide the level of what happened with Hogan by probably a thousand. Anyway, my point was that people jumped on some random RVD bandwagon...and they really don't know why. Can he wrestle? Sure. Can he wrestle well? Sure. Is he a great wrestler? No. He is not. And he ALSO doesn't have a personality either...which is why I don't understand the love for him. Nobody likes a far superior wrestler with a better body who also has no personality...but everybody loves Rob Van Dam. I just don't understand it. And I certainly don't think he's a good choice for World Champion...at a time when a company is trying to grab new and/or a lot more viewers. If he has the mic in his hand...people are immediately switching the channel to USA to watch another re-run of Burn Notice or the Home Shopping Network because RVD's personality makes theirs look like Robin Williams.

 

[psykohurricane]

i can'T believe that you completly forgot about Kurt Angle yet Tommy Dreamer is on the list.

Kurt Angle has been carying the company on his back for the last couple of years providing 5 stars matches on a regular bases while injured and he'S putting over younger wrestlers by giving them a chance to show what they are capable of doing in the ring. Just look at the wrestler he had match of the year candidate against in the past 2 years. It's a who'S who of young and fresh talent that wouldn'T get the time of day or haven'T gotten anything high profile since.

Kurt is the MVP of the veterans right now, he in a really great storyline right now, actually he's the only interesting thing about TNA right now. So while other bring either the star power or just help backstage, Kurt is always been the MVP in front of the camera and that'S why i vote for him.

 

[Optimist Prime]

i can'T believe that you completly forgot about Kurt Angle yet Tommy Dreamer is on the list.

Kurt Angle has been carying the company on his back for the last couple of years providing 5 stars matches on a regular bases while injured and he'S putting over younger wrestlers by giving them a chance to show what they are capable of doing in the ring. Just look at the wrestler he had match of the year candidate against in the past 2 years. It's a who'S who of young and fresh talent that wouldn'T get the time of day or haven'T gotten anything high profile since.

Kurt is the MVP of the veterans right now, he in a really great storyline right now, actually he's the only interesting thing about TNA right now. So while other bring either the star power or just help backstage, Kurt is always been the MVP in front of the camera and that'S why i vote for him.

He didn't forget about Kurt Angle. I don't know why everbody is complaining about a thread without even reading it before hand.

Re-read the initial post by IDR and think about your answer again.

-Prime

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

One of my least favorite things is when somebody makes a poll, and doesn't include the best choice, just because he's the obvious answer. BUT, if I can't go with Kurt Angle, that's fine. I will go with who I think is the second most helpful person to the TNA roster, and that would be Sting...I guess.

Sting has a huge legend, and his coming to TNA in the first place helped bring them some publicity. But to the actual roster, I think Sting has been able to help better than most. He's a great guy, and he's well known for helping out in the back and trying to put over wrestlers and better the promotion. I can't imagine how vast his knowledge is, and he's the only guy who's never had to deal with (directly) the political bullshit of Vince McMahon and the WWE machine.

 

[Optimist Prime]

I think this poll is somewhat skewed because the majority of the people who picked "OTHER" either picked it because they used that as a way to vote for Kurt Angle (despite being told to pick somebody else)...and the rest of the people that chose "OTHER" didn't name any other wrestler other than him. Then you have the 14 people who picked Rob Van Dam just out of spite of what I had written about him.

Not only is there absolutely no way Rob Van Dam is more valuable to TNA than those other guys on the list...but I have made it known that I feel strongly (and have backed my opinion up) that RVD is actually more of a burden than valuable. But that's using logic and reasoning...which isn't used that often around here I've noticed lol.

Sting was a pretty solid choice though too.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

I may have missed this...but was Ric Flair not an option for a reason. Because if he's fair game than I'm changing my answer to Flair. There's no way that Sting is more valuable than the "Nature Boy" Ric Flair. I would even say that he's more valuable NOW than Kurt Angle. His experience alone is enough to show the guys in the back how it's done...but remember that just adding Michael Jordan to the Bulls was enough to get the rest of the team to play like rock stars. Ric Flair is the MJ of pro wrestling. He's the best there is, there best there was, and the best there ever will be (sorry Bret, but you are no longer the best there IS). Just having him in TNA is going to make other people step it up. And anybody he puts over is golden. I have loved Jay Lethal's promos, and that...I would blame on Flair. AJ Styles is taking it up a notch, as well as Kazarian, and they're surrounded by...Ric Flair.

So again, sorry if Flair was not a choice for a reason, but I actually think he's a better one than Angle...by just a little bit.