OldSchoolWrestlingFan
Pre-Show Stalwart
When you look throughout wrestling history who do you think are the most under & overrated wrestlers ever!? (This discussion doesn't need to be limited to singles wrestlers feel free to include tag teams)
Most underrated & overrated of ALL TIME!!
- Thread starter OldSchoolWrestlingFan
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Planet_Velvet
www.planetvelvet.net
Most underrated would have to be Shelton Benjamin. There was nothing that this guy couldn't do. Rarrely if ever have you seen him make a mistake in the ring. The most overrated is Shawn Michaels - especially later in his career. I never bought his act at all. That's not to say he wasn't a good wrestler because he was. But when you start talking about the greatest wrestlers of all-time, he's not even in the Top 20 in my book.
MWRedskins
Mid-Card Championship Winner
the most underrated wrestler in my opinion is Daniel Bryan. when he first came into the WWE, he was booked as some loser kid from the indies and it took 1) CM Punk leaving and 2) fan disapproval, for Bryan to get a World title run. sadly, an injury tore up his run.
as for most overrated, there's two names i have, but i will only bring up one. The Great Khali. he actually had a world heavyweight title run, but his wrestling ability was VERY limited. a wrestler like Umaga never held claim to holding the world title, but the Great Khali has that. WWE (when they first brought him in) booked him as an unstoppable monster, however, his knees (sadly for him) are weak. later, WWE smartened up and quit trying to push him as a monster because people just got annoyed at his monster run. it worked for Henry because Henry actually wrestled well, it worked for Kane and even Big Show because they at least had some wrestling ability, however Khali didnt show much wrestling ability, it was just striking and chops to the head. so i say because of how he was booked, he was most overrated.
as for most overrated, there's two names i have, but i will only bring up one. The Great Khali. he actually had a world heavyweight title run, but his wrestling ability was VERY limited. a wrestler like Umaga never held claim to holding the world title, but the Great Khali has that. WWE (when they first brought him in) booked him as an unstoppable monster, however, his knees (sadly for him) are weak. later, WWE smartened up and quit trying to push him as a monster because people just got annoyed at his monster run. it worked for Henry because Henry actually wrestled well, it worked for Kane and even Big Show because they at least had some wrestling ability, however Khali didnt show much wrestling ability, it was just striking and chops to the head. so i say because of how he was booked, he was most overrated.
Overrated - Jericho
Never understood the hype that surrounds him and why he is seen as good enough to have a part time contract, even one that sees him put over younger guys. He has excellent charisma and mic skills but I have never enjoyed his in ring work and think he got more than he earned
Not So Honourable Mentions - Christian
Always in Edge's shadow and didn't deserve to get the World title push.
Honourable Mention for Underrated - Jeff Hardy
His out of the ring activities held him back but he is an exceptional in ring talent capable of creating amazing moments and deserved to be at the top of the card for alot longer, he doesn't get the most underrated spot for his wellness policy violations holding him back but he deserves a mention
Underrated - Chris Benoit
Will be controversial due to his final actions but he was an exceptional talent who was capable of putting on high quality matches but despite a 7 year run with WWE he only got 1 World Heavyweight title win.
Never understood the hype that surrounds him and why he is seen as good enough to have a part time contract, even one that sees him put over younger guys. He has excellent charisma and mic skills but I have never enjoyed his in ring work and think he got more than he earned
Not So Honourable Mentions - Christian
Always in Edge's shadow and didn't deserve to get the World title push.
Honourable Mention for Underrated - Jeff Hardy
His out of the ring activities held him back but he is an exceptional in ring talent capable of creating amazing moments and deserved to be at the top of the card for alot longer, he doesn't get the most underrated spot for his wellness policy violations holding him back but he deserves a mention
Underrated - Chris Benoit
Will be controversial due to his final actions but he was an exceptional talent who was capable of putting on high quality matches but despite a 7 year run with WWE he only got 1 World Heavyweight title win.
The Samoan Heritage
Getting Noticed By Management
Mine are based off of watching 7 hours of old wrestling segments and a few matches here and there all last night.
Underrated-
Matt Hardy- will always be in the shadows of his brother, but Matt deserves some credit. Rather Matt was heel or face the guy has always been over. Matt just had something about him that he has always been able to connect with the majority of fans. And when given a chance can put on some Main Event rivalries (Edge, Kane, MVP, Mysterio, Jeff, etc) I Always was a fan of the Mattitude and Version 1 Matt Hardy when he was in the cruiserweight division.
Bobby Lashley- I rewatched the McMahon feud and ECW matches and the guy was impressive. He's probably the only ECW champion (that wasn't a veteran Show/RVD) that looked like legit competition with the World Heavyweight champion and the Wwe World champion. I watched Undertaker come out and choose his WM opponent after winning the RR (man I loved that segment) And Lashley looked legit and the fact that Vince came out and song his praise out of all the champions just help his case even more.
Overrated-
CM Punk- The guy had talent but he was boring and not as great as fans (and he) think he is IMO. The Straight Edge Society and The New Nexus sucked. The "Summer of Punk" was just Punk saying what was commonly and constantly said online. People act like that whole story was real, Replace Punk with just about anybody and that story wouldve still played out the same. The guy had the longest Wwe championship reign in current times and Wrestled Undertaker at Wrestlemania and still felt like he deserved more. What more can you ask for!? Then he quits and bad mouths some of the guys and the industry that got him his name. And some people try to say that he is in the top 15 greatest of all times....come on! To Planet_Velvet if Punk is in the top 15, Michaels is easily in the top 3.
Underrated-
Matt Hardy- will always be in the shadows of his brother, but Matt deserves some credit. Rather Matt was heel or face the guy has always been over. Matt just had something about him that he has always been able to connect with the majority of fans. And when given a chance can put on some Main Event rivalries (Edge, Kane, MVP, Mysterio, Jeff, etc) I Always was a fan of the Mattitude and Version 1 Matt Hardy when he was in the cruiserweight division.
Bobby Lashley- I rewatched the McMahon feud and ECW matches and the guy was impressive. He's probably the only ECW champion (that wasn't a veteran Show/RVD) that looked like legit competition with the World Heavyweight champion and the Wwe World champion. I watched Undertaker come out and choose his WM opponent after winning the RR (man I loved that segment) And Lashley looked legit and the fact that Vince came out and song his praise out of all the champions just help his case even more.
Overrated-
CM Punk- The guy had talent but he was boring and not as great as fans (and he) think he is IMO. The Straight Edge Society and The New Nexus sucked. The "Summer of Punk" was just Punk saying what was commonly and constantly said online. People act like that whole story was real, Replace Punk with just about anybody and that story wouldve still played out the same. The guy had the longest Wwe championship reign in current times and Wrestled Undertaker at Wrestlemania and still felt like he deserved more. What more can you ask for!? Then he quits and bad mouths some of the guys and the industry that got him his name. And some people try to say that he is in the top 15 greatest of all times....come on! To Planet_Velvet if Punk is in the top 15, Michaels is easily in the top 3.
so this is just a WWE thread? Punk's ROH time is anything but overrated
if it is WWE
underrated: Lance Storm, Shelton Benjamin, Paul London, Cesaro, Sin Cara, Booker T, William Regal, Tajiri
overrated: Kane (some cool memories, plenty of awful moments, not that remarkable in the ring), HHH (not hating on some of his matches, but way too much mic exposure over the years), hesitate to say but Lesnar? great draw and i enjoy watching him but he comes off as one of the stiffest guys to work with (rumours of him v 50 year old Austin are ludicrous if true) plus he's been booked way too strong. They can't have Lesnar v Rollins as a true main event, because we all expect a complete squash. The only way to balance things is to book him in triple threats and screw finishes
if it is WWE
underrated: Lance Storm, Shelton Benjamin, Paul London, Cesaro, Sin Cara, Booker T, William Regal, Tajiri
overrated: Kane (some cool memories, plenty of awful moments, not that remarkable in the ring), HHH (not hating on some of his matches, but way too much mic exposure over the years), hesitate to say but Lesnar? great draw and i enjoy watching him but he comes off as one of the stiffest guys to work with (rumours of him v 50 year old Austin are ludicrous if true) plus he's been booked way too strong. They can't have Lesnar v Rollins as a true main event, because we all expect a complete squash. The only way to balance things is to book him in triple threats and screw finishes
oh and Hogan is another overrated one, I can't deny the effect he had and the electricity in his performances but he has since been shown up as a completely selfish, sad, egotist. Rock & Cena put him to shame as far as I'm concerned as far as universally recognised babyfaces go
Jack-Hammer
YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
More often than not, a LOT of people confuse the definition of the words with overrated usually signifying wrestlers that were/are big stars but they themselves don't like while underrated means guys they're fans of who didn't make it as big as they believe they should have. Though, to be fair, it's impossible to be 100% objective because pro wrestling itself is almost entirely subjective and based on opinion with very few absolutes.
I think there are a few wrestlers in which it's nigh impossible for to label overrated and retain any shred of credibility.
Hulk Hogan
The Rock
Stone Cold Steve Austin
John Cena
Ric Flair
I picked those four as they're quite possibly the most obvious and safest bet for a handful of guys who can't really be viewed as overrated in the eyes of most American fans. All of these men were/are big draws who consistently captured the attention and interest of fans for years. In a business where 90% of what you see is scripted and predetermined, one thing that can be used that can't really be argued are sheer numbers and these five men are wrestlers who've helped bring in a LOT of money and drawn huge audiences wherever they've wrestled. They have their detractors and negative qualities, some of which involve people basing their opinions of them partially on how they conduct themselves in their personal lives just like we sometimes see happen with athletes in legit sports. Using Hulk Hogan as an example, I almost always found pretty dull to watch inside the ring and in terms of in-ring ability, the guy was about as basic as it gets. For 20+ years, we watched Hogan wrestle in the ring and perform at a level that nearly anyone with 3 months worth of training would be able to duplicate. However, he made people care about him, he made people interested in him on a level that'd never been experienced in wrestling before and he made mountains of money for WWE.
I dunno if I can decide who I feel is the single most overrated in wrestling history, but there are some names that spring to mind as guys who I feel were pretty overrated in the grand scheme of things.
Overrated
Jeff Jarrett - Over the course of the last 15 years or so, if there's one wrestler I can think of who rose to a level that was well above where he should have, it's Jeff Jarrett. I always saw Jarrett as a strong mid-card wrestler with overall mid-card level abilities; I know we all sometimes have a tendency to make it sound as though being a "mid-carder" is like being a leper, I do it sometimes myself and don't even realize it until later. However, Jarrett is someone that I NEVER saw as a main event level guy, especially during a time in which the quality of WCW was at an all time low and circling the drain. During the very late 90s and into the very early 2000s, the WCW World Heavyweight Championship gained a reputation as being a strap that Vince Russo would put on anybody, which he damn near did, and the title lost any real meaning. The fact that Jarrett was champion during that time made me think that being a main eventer in WCW meant little to nothing. When he later went onto found TNA Wrestling and continuously booked himself as champion or being in the title hunt always made me think "The only way he could be a credible main eventer was to start his own company and book himself as the top star."
Edge - I know a lot of people like Edge and I liked the guy too, but I never saw anything go down with Edge to make me feel that he should have been an 11 time World Champion. He was good in the ring and good on the mic, but I never saw him as being THAT good.
The Hardy Boyz - I thought they were great tag team wrestlers and mid-card singles guys, but I never connected with either of them on any sort of real level apart from that. Watching Matt & Jeff Hardy try to be charismatic and try to talk on the mic without looking and sounding like fish out of water was painful to watch and hear sometimes. Matt always struck me as the weaker of the two whether it was in the ring or on the mic, which is saying something as Jeff always sucked during promos in my opinion.
Lex Luger - Luger's a guy I just never really got. To me, he came off as the NWA and later WCW's attempt at creating Hulk Hogan and he just didn't have the goods. He had a fantastic physique, Luger's arguably the best built man in the history of pro wrestling in terms of someone with the size, symmetry and definition, but I just never saw him as great on the mic or in the ring. I think one thing that majorly helped him and really sustained his career was the bookers were smart enough to know and see that the guy had limits and they covered them up masterfully by pairing Luger with arguably the three best heels in the business at the time of Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard and James J. Dillon. The Four Horsemen were so hot, had been established as such a premiere heel faction and the people involved were so talented that they made Luger look good by association. By the time he left the Horsemen, they were still hugely over as heels, Luger had been cemented as someone to watch due to his association with them that fans rallied around Luger. On his own, I think his shortcomings were blatantly obvious, but fans loved the guy. I thought he was a great upper mid-card guy and upper mid-card champ, but I don't think he should ever have been World Champion.
Underrated
Arn Anderson - I may be in a small minority, but I genuinely thought that Arn Anderson should have been moved higher up the card that he ultimately reached. He was firmly entrenched in the mid-card and tag team scenes in Mid-Atlantic/WCW for over a decade as either tag team or television champion and I do think there was a time in which he MAY have been a viable World Champion. During the early 90s, for instance, WCW was going through an upheaval with formally leaving the National Wrestling Alliance, all the hoopla surrounding the NWA and WCW World Championships that I think Anderson MIGHT have been viable. Anderson was a lotta fun to watch in the ring and he had the gift of gab, he did some of the best and less repetitive mic work of the Horsemen and he could talk while he thought. I can't guarantee that he'd have been a strong main eventer, but I do believe that he should have been given the opportunity.
Curt Hennig - If you asked who the greatest Intercontinental Champion of all time was, I'd be very surprised if Hennig wasn't at the top or very close to the top of most people's lists. I know Hennig was World Champion in the AWA before he came to the WWF in the late 80s and I know he's revered for his overall ability, but the AWA was already starting to circle the drain due to Vern Gagne's outdated point of view & booking strategies and Hennig never rose above being a strong mid-card champion for the rest of his career. During the early 90s, I genuinely believe that Hennig should have had an opportunity at being WWF Champion. Hennig was strong in the ring, quite solid on the mic, had a great presence and could deliver when he was needed. Hennig always challenged the likes of Hogan and Warrior for the title as a heel, but he never had a run with the title, even a brief one. As with WCW in the early 90s, WWF was going through something of a transition and it would've been interesting to see Hennig get an opportunity. Hulk Hogan was getting older, people's tastes were starting to change, Hogan himself was getting more difficult to deal with, etc. so there was a search for the next guy to replace Hogan. I think Hennig's hat should've been tossed into the ring and I think he could've made a good go as champion either in the WWF or in WCW.
Ravishing Rick Rude - Rude is another one of these great heels I loved as a kid who came along during the mid to late 80s. He'd become a big deal in WCCW and Mid-Atlantic by the mid 80s and moved to the WWF in the summer of '87. I think Rude could've been WWF Champion circa 1989 through 1991 or so and he showed up in the WWF with Hulkamania was still at its peak, which was a formula that Vince understandably didn't wanna alter. Rude had a ton of charisma and was a lot better in the ring than a lot of people give him credit for. Even though he won the "WCW International" World Heavyweight Championship, that came about during the early 90s with in which there was all that turmoil regarding WCW leaving the NWA and the resulting confusion over title lineage. However, the titles aren't officially recognized by the WWE or even by WCW before as being legit "World" title runs.
Properly Rated
Shelton Benjamin - Over the course of the last 12 or 13 years, I've heard people sometimes singing this guy's praises because of his athleticism. Benjamin was crazy athletic but, frankly, I always thought that was all he brought to the table. There were a LOT of athletic guys to come before and after Benjamin, some every bit as athletic and some even more so, but Benjamin always struck me as someone who had the personality of a jar of mayonnaise. He had a ton of athletic ability and genuine technical skill, he was also given a number of substantial wins as a singles wrestler over guys like RVD, Chris Jericho and Triple H. However, Benjamin never really had "IT" in my eyes; like I said, I never saw much in the way of personality from the guy. He had significant mid-card title runs and as a tag champ, but he never connected with fans in a big way. I think Benjamin's ultimately where he should've been: a solid mid-card/tag team wrestler; I know some feel he'd rise to greatness after leaving WWE but he's ultimately stayed where he was in other companies after leaving WWE: in the mid-card/tag team picture.
I think there are a few wrestlers in which it's nigh impossible for to label overrated and retain any shred of credibility.
Hulk Hogan
The Rock
Stone Cold Steve Austin
John Cena
Ric Flair
I picked those four as they're quite possibly the most obvious and safest bet for a handful of guys who can't really be viewed as overrated in the eyes of most American fans. All of these men were/are big draws who consistently captured the attention and interest of fans for years. In a business where 90% of what you see is scripted and predetermined, one thing that can be used that can't really be argued are sheer numbers and these five men are wrestlers who've helped bring in a LOT of money and drawn huge audiences wherever they've wrestled. They have their detractors and negative qualities, some of which involve people basing their opinions of them partially on how they conduct themselves in their personal lives just like we sometimes see happen with athletes in legit sports. Using Hulk Hogan as an example, I almost always found pretty dull to watch inside the ring and in terms of in-ring ability, the guy was about as basic as it gets. For 20+ years, we watched Hogan wrestle in the ring and perform at a level that nearly anyone with 3 months worth of training would be able to duplicate. However, he made people care about him, he made people interested in him on a level that'd never been experienced in wrestling before and he made mountains of money for WWE.
I dunno if I can decide who I feel is the single most overrated in wrestling history, but there are some names that spring to mind as guys who I feel were pretty overrated in the grand scheme of things.
Overrated
Jeff Jarrett - Over the course of the last 15 years or so, if there's one wrestler I can think of who rose to a level that was well above where he should have, it's Jeff Jarrett. I always saw Jarrett as a strong mid-card wrestler with overall mid-card level abilities; I know we all sometimes have a tendency to make it sound as though being a "mid-carder" is like being a leper, I do it sometimes myself and don't even realize it until later. However, Jarrett is someone that I NEVER saw as a main event level guy, especially during a time in which the quality of WCW was at an all time low and circling the drain. During the very late 90s and into the very early 2000s, the WCW World Heavyweight Championship gained a reputation as being a strap that Vince Russo would put on anybody, which he damn near did, and the title lost any real meaning. The fact that Jarrett was champion during that time made me think that being a main eventer in WCW meant little to nothing. When he later went onto found TNA Wrestling and continuously booked himself as champion or being in the title hunt always made me think "The only way he could be a credible main eventer was to start his own company and book himself as the top star."
Edge - I know a lot of people like Edge and I liked the guy too, but I never saw anything go down with Edge to make me feel that he should have been an 11 time World Champion. He was good in the ring and good on the mic, but I never saw him as being THAT good.
The Hardy Boyz - I thought they were great tag team wrestlers and mid-card singles guys, but I never connected with either of them on any sort of real level apart from that. Watching Matt & Jeff Hardy try to be charismatic and try to talk on the mic without looking and sounding like fish out of water was painful to watch and hear sometimes. Matt always struck me as the weaker of the two whether it was in the ring or on the mic, which is saying something as Jeff always sucked during promos in my opinion.
Lex Luger - Luger's a guy I just never really got. To me, he came off as the NWA and later WCW's attempt at creating Hulk Hogan and he just didn't have the goods. He had a fantastic physique, Luger's arguably the best built man in the history of pro wrestling in terms of someone with the size, symmetry and definition, but I just never saw him as great on the mic or in the ring. I think one thing that majorly helped him and really sustained his career was the bookers were smart enough to know and see that the guy had limits and they covered them up masterfully by pairing Luger with arguably the three best heels in the business at the time of Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard and James J. Dillon. The Four Horsemen were so hot, had been established as such a premiere heel faction and the people involved were so talented that they made Luger look good by association. By the time he left the Horsemen, they were still hugely over as heels, Luger had been cemented as someone to watch due to his association with them that fans rallied around Luger. On his own, I think his shortcomings were blatantly obvious, but fans loved the guy. I thought he was a great upper mid-card guy and upper mid-card champ, but I don't think he should ever have been World Champion.
Underrated
Arn Anderson - I may be in a small minority, but I genuinely thought that Arn Anderson should have been moved higher up the card that he ultimately reached. He was firmly entrenched in the mid-card and tag team scenes in Mid-Atlantic/WCW for over a decade as either tag team or television champion and I do think there was a time in which he MAY have been a viable World Champion. During the early 90s, for instance, WCW was going through an upheaval with formally leaving the National Wrestling Alliance, all the hoopla surrounding the NWA and WCW World Championships that I think Anderson MIGHT have been viable. Anderson was a lotta fun to watch in the ring and he had the gift of gab, he did some of the best and less repetitive mic work of the Horsemen and he could talk while he thought. I can't guarantee that he'd have been a strong main eventer, but I do believe that he should have been given the opportunity.
Curt Hennig - If you asked who the greatest Intercontinental Champion of all time was, I'd be very surprised if Hennig wasn't at the top or very close to the top of most people's lists. I know Hennig was World Champion in the AWA before he came to the WWF in the late 80s and I know he's revered for his overall ability, but the AWA was already starting to circle the drain due to Vern Gagne's outdated point of view & booking strategies and Hennig never rose above being a strong mid-card champion for the rest of his career. During the early 90s, I genuinely believe that Hennig should have had an opportunity at being WWF Champion. Hennig was strong in the ring, quite solid on the mic, had a great presence and could deliver when he was needed. Hennig always challenged the likes of Hogan and Warrior for the title as a heel, but he never had a run with the title, even a brief one. As with WCW in the early 90s, WWF was going through something of a transition and it would've been interesting to see Hennig get an opportunity. Hulk Hogan was getting older, people's tastes were starting to change, Hogan himself was getting more difficult to deal with, etc. so there was a search for the next guy to replace Hogan. I think Hennig's hat should've been tossed into the ring and I think he could've made a good go as champion either in the WWF or in WCW.
Ravishing Rick Rude - Rude is another one of these great heels I loved as a kid who came along during the mid to late 80s. He'd become a big deal in WCCW and Mid-Atlantic by the mid 80s and moved to the WWF in the summer of '87. I think Rude could've been WWF Champion circa 1989 through 1991 or so and he showed up in the WWF with Hulkamania was still at its peak, which was a formula that Vince understandably didn't wanna alter. Rude had a ton of charisma and was a lot better in the ring than a lot of people give him credit for. Even though he won the "WCW International" World Heavyweight Championship, that came about during the early 90s with in which there was all that turmoil regarding WCW leaving the NWA and the resulting confusion over title lineage. However, the titles aren't officially recognized by the WWE or even by WCW before as being legit "World" title runs.
Properly Rated
Shelton Benjamin - Over the course of the last 12 or 13 years, I've heard people sometimes singing this guy's praises because of his athleticism. Benjamin was crazy athletic but, frankly, I always thought that was all he brought to the table. There were a LOT of athletic guys to come before and after Benjamin, some every bit as athletic and some even more so, but Benjamin always struck me as someone who had the personality of a jar of mayonnaise. He had a ton of athletic ability and genuine technical skill, he was also given a number of substantial wins as a singles wrestler over guys like RVD, Chris Jericho and Triple H. However, Benjamin never really had "IT" in my eyes; like I said, I never saw much in the way of personality from the guy. He had significant mid-card title runs and as a tag champ, but he never connected with fans in a big way. I think Benjamin's ultimately where he should've been: a solid mid-card/tag team wrestler; I know some feel he'd rise to greatness after leaving WWE but he's ultimately stayed where he was in other companies after leaving WWE: in the mid-card/tag team picture.
Lowdown
Ooh baby I like it roooaaaaw!
I've said this before, and I'll say it again. CM Punk is one of the most overrated wrestlers I've ever seen. Not to say the guy wasn't talented, but I just couldn't get into the guy. He's an internet darling and all, but I just don't see what everyone else does. I give him props for what he's accomplished. The guy is average as a performer at best to me.
For underrated, I probably gotta go with Benoit. Nevermind that I'm a huge mark for the guy. It's hard to argue that Benoit could flat out perform, even though he had sub-par mic skills. He was by far neck and neck with Angle in regards to technical prowess, perhaps even better. He was one of the best grapplers of the late 90's and early 2000's.
For underrated, I probably gotta go with Benoit. Nevermind that I'm a huge mark for the guy. It's hard to argue that Benoit could flat out perform, even though he had sub-par mic skills. He was by far neck and neck with Angle in regards to technical prowess, perhaps even better. He was one of the best grapplers of the late 90's and early 2000's.
OYDK
King Of The Ring
Overrated: Kevin Nash: Man, this guy bugs me and always has. I have never seen somebody become a legend with as little talent and drive as Kevin Nash. His friendships and his alliances with people like Shawn Michaels and Hulk Hogan are what kept him near the top, but he really couldn't lace his buddies' boots on the mic, in the ring, or in the charisma department. Michaels, HHH, Hall, Hogan... all extraordinary talents; the fact that Nash is spoken of in the same breath as those guys is a joke to me.
Underrated: William Regal I always thought Regal had the chops (no pun intended) to become one of the all-time great heel World Champions, but I guess WWE never saw it with him. He was always spectacular in his roles as Commissioner, IC Champ, and later on, as mentor to the young roster. His ring style wasn't really what you would call "heart-racing entertainment" but he added legitimacy to a sport that was bordering on hokey at the time. I think he could have done great things as the top guy, but it was never meant to be.
Underrated: William Regal I always thought Regal had the chops (no pun intended) to become one of the all-time great heel World Champions, but I guess WWE never saw it with him. He was always spectacular in his roles as Commissioner, IC Champ, and later on, as mentor to the young roster. His ring style wasn't really what you would call "heart-racing entertainment" but he added legitimacy to a sport that was bordering on hokey at the time. I think he could have done great things as the top guy, but it was never meant to be.
Most overrated - AJ Lee, it's self explanatory. She's not a bad worker but there's nothing special about her to get the push she got. She's the most average diva they've ever had.
Most underrated - Vader, He never got the push he deserved in WWE. He should of stayed in WCW and tore shit up there. WWE treated him like a joke and the fans bought right into what WWE was selling them.
He was World Champion in 2011. Daniel Bryan was treated like a star ever since he got to WWE and he won the US. Title from The Miz.
Most underrated - Vader, He never got the push he deserved in WWE. He should of stayed in WCW and tore shit up there. WWE treated him like a joke and the fans bought right into what WWE was selling them.
He was World Champion in 2011. Daniel Bryan was treated like a star ever since he got to WWE and he won the US. Title from The Miz.
TootsieBear
Pre-Show Stalwart
@Messiah I agree with you about AJ Lee. Never knew why people thought she was so great for when she was an active wrestler for the WWE. Maybe it's just because I only remember when she had the "crazy girl" gimmick and it wasn't nothing special or unique. She was cute, had passion and was fun to watch at times, but there are much better female wrestlers out there.
Overrated: Bray Wyatt. Cue the pitch forks and torches! I don't hate Bray Wyatt, however that doesn't mean I find him to be overrated. Bray Wyatt has a great gimmick that he portrays well, but like most performers his gimmick has been affected by being overexposed, believability, and his mediocre in-ring performance. That's why I still like Wyatt, just not his biggest fan.
Underrated: Kofi Kingston. Since the day he has debuted I have been a big fan of his. Kofi is a talented performer who has unluckily been passed over for other wrestlers who could only dream of out performing in the "squared circle." While I like that Kofi is having T.V time with New Day, if he could somehow break off and go his own path then he would be freaking awesome. Does anyone remember when he used a sledge hammer to destroy Randy Orton's car? AWESOME!
Overrated: Bray Wyatt. Cue the pitch forks and torches! I don't hate Bray Wyatt, however that doesn't mean I find him to be overrated. Bray Wyatt has a great gimmick that he portrays well, but like most performers his gimmick has been affected by being overexposed, believability, and his mediocre in-ring performance. That's why I still like Wyatt, just not his biggest fan.
Underrated: Kofi Kingston. Since the day he has debuted I have been a big fan of his. Kofi is a talented performer who has unluckily been passed over for other wrestlers who could only dream of out performing in the "squared circle." While I like that Kofi is having T.V time with New Day, if he could somehow break off and go his own path then he would be freaking awesome. Does anyone remember when he used a sledge hammer to destroy Randy Orton's car? AWESOME!
HBKperfect23
Championship Contender
Under:
John Cena (in the ring). Every time he's in the ring with a good worker he has an awesome match. He has delivered time and time again. With the U.S. title open, he has the Match of the week more often then not. He's had many classics (Michaels WM, Michaels Raw, Punk MitB, bryan SSlam, etc).
Kevin Nash: great on the mic and could get by in the ring. Had great matches with certain wrestlers. Survivor Series 95 with Bret was not only his best Match ever but a top 10 best match ever for Bret as well. Nash always had the "it" factor.
John Cena (in the ring). Every time he's in the ring with a good worker he has an awesome match. He has delivered time and time again. With the U.S. title open, he has the Match of the week more often then not. He's had many classics (Michaels WM, Michaels Raw, Punk MitB, bryan SSlam, etc).
Kevin Nash: great on the mic and could get by in the ring. Had great matches with certain wrestlers. Survivor Series 95 with Bret was not only his best Match ever but a top 10 best match ever for Bret as well. Nash always had the "it" factor.
when I said Hogan I never denied this, but have you watched Wrestlemania 9? I'm not saying the other four you named are really modest guys, but Hogan's ego was bigger than all of them put together. I bet if Hulk's son started wrestling, Hulk wouldn't put him over.
@SJ5522, Are seriously trying to say Hogan is overrated because he was looking out for the best interest of his personal brand? Remember these entertainers are independent contractors. It is their duty to protect what is best for themselves and their families. So many act like individuals need to give back. That's bull shit. The business is a two way street. It most certainly is nice to see veterans put over a young talent but by WM VIIII Hogan was hardly done. In actuality he still had his biggest money years ahead of him. In later years Hogan put others over as he would to this day if he could go.
eh, I can take your point but in 1993 Hulk knew he was off to NJPW soon and he wouldn't return to the company until 2002, he was absolutely made and the biggest performer in the biz and yet for some reason he can't put over Bret Hart and make him in a similar fashion, no he insists that instead he loses dirty to Yokozuna, after making the worst WM ending of all time (in the worst WM of all time, but Bret could've beaten Yoko and it would've been a salvageable main event), all this after only coming back to the WWF for a cup of coffee
Ric Flair showed em how its done just a few weeks prior to WM9, he was leaving the WWF, so he put over Mr. Perfect in the loser leaves town match on Raw
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Interesting discussion on Hogan....I do get the "Independent Contractor" argument and I have made it in other posts here before (basically echoing what Flair said RE: Hogan's creative control in WCW) to defend him, even though Im not a fan (look at my screen name, you can see what team I was on in the 80s).
Over Rated & Under rated is so subjective.....I mean, over rated how, ring work, promos, what ???
Someone mentioned Lex Luger here but I never thought he was over rated, I watched him from the time he left Florida in late 86 and no one ever said he was great in the ring or on the mic (Jim Cornette famously ribbed him by mispronouncing "accolades" as "allocades" in a promo once, which Luger did multiple times on TV). Still he was insanely popular and at various times was a major draw, despite never being viewed as "Great" wrestler.
Kevin Nash is similar....I don't remember talking about his great in ring work (although he had his share of very good matches, especially in WWE) but that wasn't a huge part of his appeal. I suppose someone could argue he wasn't good on the mic (which was the biggest part of his appeal) although I would disagree.
When I look at a guy who was considered great or at least very good in the ring that I didn't think was that good I look at Christian....he could move quick and could take falls but there was never anything special to me in anything he did in the ring that separated him from any of a number of guys from Shelton Benjamin, to Kenny Dykstra, to Brad Armstrong, to Buff Bagwell, etc.
On the mic I never got Randy Orton or Rick Rude....when I think of great talkers, higely entertaining guys as face or heels, serious or funny, I think of Flair, Rock, Austin, Rhodes, Piper, Hogan, HBK, and I don't think those two measure up. My opinion, I think they are both good, mostly as heels, and in a certain construct with limits can be effective (like Brett Hart, who is universally considered great in the ring but average on the mic) but neither ever displayed the range to me to be considered among the top tier in this category.
Over Rated & Under rated is so subjective.....I mean, over rated how, ring work, promos, what ???
Someone mentioned Lex Luger here but I never thought he was over rated, I watched him from the time he left Florida in late 86 and no one ever said he was great in the ring or on the mic (Jim Cornette famously ribbed him by mispronouncing "accolades" as "allocades" in a promo once, which Luger did multiple times on TV). Still he was insanely popular and at various times was a major draw, despite never being viewed as "Great" wrestler.
Kevin Nash is similar....I don't remember talking about his great in ring work (although he had his share of very good matches, especially in WWE) but that wasn't a huge part of his appeal. I suppose someone could argue he wasn't good on the mic (which was the biggest part of his appeal) although I would disagree.
When I look at a guy who was considered great or at least very good in the ring that I didn't think was that good I look at Christian....he could move quick and could take falls but there was never anything special to me in anything he did in the ring that separated him from any of a number of guys from Shelton Benjamin, to Kenny Dykstra, to Brad Armstrong, to Buff Bagwell, etc.
On the mic I never got Randy Orton or Rick Rude....when I think of great talkers, higely entertaining guys as face or heels, serious or funny, I think of Flair, Rock, Austin, Rhodes, Piper, Hogan, HBK, and I don't think those two measure up. My opinion, I think they are both good, mostly as heels, and in a certain construct with limits can be effective (like Brett Hart, who is universally considered great in the ring but average on the mic) but neither ever displayed the range to me to be considered among the top tier in this category.
THTRobtaylor
Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist
Jack is kinda right, if you mean who do YOU think never got where they should be that's one thing but if it is who didn't get what they deserved on a business level because WWE didn't rate them, that's different and harder to gauge because the reality is that WWE is still in business and WCW isn't... so whatever calls Vince has made have to an extent worked cos his company is still standing. WCW pushed arguably the "wrong talents" but at the same time guys like Goldberg DID achieve mainstream success for a very short time, so it's hard to say he's over-rated.
Perhaps the correct thing would be overpushed/underpushed and overrated by their peers and underrated.
Someone like Goldberg falls into the over pushed category, he got the push to the moon, didn't have the fundamentals to back it up and got found out VERY quickly, when he injured Bret. He was a short term guy that WCW could have used but they bet the farm on him instead and fed his ego, to the point he believed he was a top guy. Someone like Jericho or Austin would be the opposite of that WCW equation, they were not used to their talents but were able to find their niche elsewhere. Some say Jericho is overrated but it's a hollow argument cos they can never say WHY he doesn't deserve what he has achieved...only that they don't think he should have got it. If anything he's a guy who is underrated because it took until 2008 for his real genius to be recognised by Vince... he's probably just outside the top 10 of all time, but he's in the conversation... he was underpushed rather than anything else and by the time WWE cottoned on it was too late almost.
If you're talking about overrated by their peers then Flair, Shawn and Orton are in that conversation with Shawn arguably being top of that list. Flair WAS limited, he did do the same match for 20 years, but that he could make that work after his plane crash mitigated it. Orton has now improved to a certain level, but he is not the worker he or his peers rate him to be, just benefiting from the dearth of talent making it in the last few years... as the NXT guys rise, he will fall and history won't judge him as a top 10 of all time either.
Shawn is the most overrated, too many claim he is "the best ever" when he was the shits for much of his early solo run, in attitude and level in the ring. For whatever reason he was able to convince people they were seeing the future and to an extent it was, but 92-97 were awful years for him in the ring and his out the ring escapades made it worse. Where he gets credit is that he DID turn it around after the hiatus and his 2nd career (which it is in reality) is probably just worthy of the praise he gets, but even then he did shit like flopping for Hogan.
Underrated by their peers, then you're talking the guys who they tell stories about, not the ones who they lipservice to say "he's a hell of a hand" but the guys like Tonga/Haku/Meng, Lance Storm and the like. Tonga is probably the most underrated guy ever, people tell Tonga stories out of the ring rather than put over how good he was, same for guys like Bill Watts who JR puts over ad nauseum but most don't cos they dislike him personally. Storm always gets mentioned as "a great trainer", not the guy who with zero charisma made it to WWE and WCW winning loads of titles... guys don't like putting him over as a worker cos it takes THEIR excuse away... it invites "Well if Lance could do it without talking, why couldn't you?"
If I had to pick one who I really feed is underappreciated by everyone it's Brian Pillman. What he actually contributed is staggering when you look coldly at it, he was the first American "high flyer", not a Liger or Kid who were from overseas, he was an American kid from the NFL who could do all those moves, then he helped reinvigorate tag teams with Austin, then fathered Attitude... he gave his material to Austin once he was hurt but even then Austin and the whole Attitude era doesn't pop without "Pillman Gotta Gun".
How he isn't in the Hall of Fame, isn't put over by his peers enough and WWE in particular cos of the fact he died is insulting. WWE like to spin it that Austin was responsible along with Vince and Shawn... they weren't, Vince signed Pillman to come in and be that guy cos he had done it in WCW, dropped those F-Bombs and threatened to piss in the ECW ring while Vince was still putting Bradshaw with a bullrope v Savio Vega on shows.
After Brian it's Matt Hardy - again criminally underused and under appreciated cos they chose Edge and Jeff over him. And finally to make the 3, Marty Jannetty. Shawn doesn't screw him over in 93, he'd have been a top name.... that the "Jannetty of the team" is even a thing is disgraceful... he was burned by Shawn, which led to his issues... as it would for any of us. Till that point he was a top top worker, only other possible cloud was Chuck Austin... but even in court they acknowledged he took the move wrong rather than Marty did it wrong.
Perhaps the correct thing would be overpushed/underpushed and overrated by their peers and underrated.
Someone like Goldberg falls into the over pushed category, he got the push to the moon, didn't have the fundamentals to back it up and got found out VERY quickly, when he injured Bret. He was a short term guy that WCW could have used but they bet the farm on him instead and fed his ego, to the point he believed he was a top guy. Someone like Jericho or Austin would be the opposite of that WCW equation, they were not used to their talents but were able to find their niche elsewhere. Some say Jericho is overrated but it's a hollow argument cos they can never say WHY he doesn't deserve what he has achieved...only that they don't think he should have got it. If anything he's a guy who is underrated because it took until 2008 for his real genius to be recognised by Vince... he's probably just outside the top 10 of all time, but he's in the conversation... he was underpushed rather than anything else and by the time WWE cottoned on it was too late almost.
If you're talking about overrated by their peers then Flair, Shawn and Orton are in that conversation with Shawn arguably being top of that list. Flair WAS limited, he did do the same match for 20 years, but that he could make that work after his plane crash mitigated it. Orton has now improved to a certain level, but he is not the worker he or his peers rate him to be, just benefiting from the dearth of talent making it in the last few years... as the NXT guys rise, he will fall and history won't judge him as a top 10 of all time either.
Shawn is the most overrated, too many claim he is "the best ever" when he was the shits for much of his early solo run, in attitude and level in the ring. For whatever reason he was able to convince people they were seeing the future and to an extent it was, but 92-97 were awful years for him in the ring and his out the ring escapades made it worse. Where he gets credit is that he DID turn it around after the hiatus and his 2nd career (which it is in reality) is probably just worthy of the praise he gets, but even then he did shit like flopping for Hogan.
Underrated by their peers, then you're talking the guys who they tell stories about, not the ones who they lipservice to say "he's a hell of a hand" but the guys like Tonga/Haku/Meng, Lance Storm and the like. Tonga is probably the most underrated guy ever, people tell Tonga stories out of the ring rather than put over how good he was, same for guys like Bill Watts who JR puts over ad nauseum but most don't cos they dislike him personally. Storm always gets mentioned as "a great trainer", not the guy who with zero charisma made it to WWE and WCW winning loads of titles... guys don't like putting him over as a worker cos it takes THEIR excuse away... it invites "Well if Lance could do it without talking, why couldn't you?"
If I had to pick one who I really feed is underappreciated by everyone it's Brian Pillman. What he actually contributed is staggering when you look coldly at it, he was the first American "high flyer", not a Liger or Kid who were from overseas, he was an American kid from the NFL who could do all those moves, then he helped reinvigorate tag teams with Austin, then fathered Attitude... he gave his material to Austin once he was hurt but even then Austin and the whole Attitude era doesn't pop without "Pillman Gotta Gun".
How he isn't in the Hall of Fame, isn't put over by his peers enough and WWE in particular cos of the fact he died is insulting. WWE like to spin it that Austin was responsible along with Vince and Shawn... they weren't, Vince signed Pillman to come in and be that guy cos he had done it in WCW, dropped those F-Bombs and threatened to piss in the ECW ring while Vince was still putting Bradshaw with a bullrope v Savio Vega on shows.
After Brian it's Matt Hardy - again criminally underused and under appreciated cos they chose Edge and Jeff over him. And finally to make the 3, Marty Jannetty. Shawn doesn't screw him over in 93, he'd have been a top name.... that the "Jannetty of the team" is even a thing is disgraceful... he was burned by Shawn, which led to his issues... as it would for any of us. Till that point he was a top top worker, only other possible cloud was Chuck Austin... but even in court they acknowledged he took the move wrong rather than Marty did it wrong.
Only positive thing i can say about her is she had passion.. Being cute is not that positive, that's embarrassing for an adult woman. They should want to be smokin hot, which she's not... People call baby's and dogs cute... and AJ.
relentless1
G.O.A.T.
Just because Hogan didn't put Bret over on the way out of the WWF in 1993 doesnt make him selfish, he's used to the old way of doing things, which means face v face for the title didn't happen back then, you had to have a heel champ in between to get it done properly. e.g. Iron Shiek between Backlund and Hogan. If you watch that match with Hogan vs Yoko, Hulk put Yoko over like nobodys business. He couldn't slam him, took three Boots to put him down, hell Yoko even kicked out from the Leg Drop with authority not to mention beating Hogan and leaving him laying with an extended beating after the match, if thats not putting someone over strong then I don't know what is.
yourdamnluck
Pre-Show Stalwart
Most overrated: Punk- The guy is sloppy in ring and below average in the ring.
Most underrated: Anybody who is rated below punk.
But really hhh and cena these are living legends and 20 years from now people will surely put them in their list of greatest of all times but they are not given the respect they deserve.
Most underrated: Anybody who is rated below punk.
But really hhh and cena these are living legends and 20 years from now people will surely put them in their list of greatest of all times but they are not given the respect they deserve.
HBKperfect23
Championship Contender
92: great match with Davey to win the IC title and a good ppv main event with Bret in his rookie year as a singles wrestler
93: match of the year with Marty
94: Match of the year (5stars) with Razor
95: match of the year with Nash at mania
96: match of the year (near 5 stars) with Bret
97: match of the year candidate with Taker (near 5 stars). Easily MOTY if not for the austin/Bret Classic at wm13.
Yea, michaels sure did suck during those years.
Another underrated wrestler I forgot to add:
Al Snow (98) I feel like he could have had a solid ic title run due to how good he was in the ring. Also found his gimmick entertaining
Most overrated - Another vote for Shawn Michaels. That isn't to say he wasn't a very good wrestler, and could be genuinely outstanding when he wanted to be, but this idea that he's definitely the best is such nonsense.
First off, the guy often phoned in performances in non-big time matches. He wasn't a Ric Flair or Bret Hart, namely a guy who would go out of his way to make the other guy look good, and was often far too selfish in the ring. That goes for when he returned as well, loads of times he just looked uninterested.
Secondly, he wasn't that great on the mic, in fact I'd say he was about par with Bret Hart. Both were decent on the mic but weren't fantastic, both had their great moments, but both could often sound muddled or just lose track of where they're supposed to be. That story Paul Heyman told Steve Austin really about Dusty Rhodes asking him to 'show me the money' in his promos nails it for HBK's promo ability. Often he'd just go out there and put himself over without ever building up his opponent or an upcoming match of his.
Thirdly, his attitude stunk. You always knew Shawn wasn't going over within a half minute of a match starting. He'd just not give the same level of performance when he wasn't getting something out of it. Then you have things like Sunny Days, his tantrum in New York when the Survivor Series 96 crowd turned on him and just his general drug taking. A liability for lots of his career.
Last, but not least when it comes to proving he was overrated, he wasn't close to being a draw ever. For his fans I'll ask this, how come the 'greatest wrestler of all time' who was 'one of the best talkers of all time' bombed whenever he was champ like no-one else before or after him? No-one has had the full weight of the WWF/E machine put behind them like Shawn had in 1996 and failed so miserably. He got the main man push Hogan, Austin, Rock and Cena got and he was the only one of the five to blow it.
First off, the guy often phoned in performances in non-big time matches. He wasn't a Ric Flair or Bret Hart, namely a guy who would go out of his way to make the other guy look good, and was often far too selfish in the ring. That goes for when he returned as well, loads of times he just looked uninterested.
Secondly, he wasn't that great on the mic, in fact I'd say he was about par with Bret Hart. Both were decent on the mic but weren't fantastic, both had their great moments, but both could often sound muddled or just lose track of where they're supposed to be. That story Paul Heyman told Steve Austin really about Dusty Rhodes asking him to 'show me the money' in his promos nails it for HBK's promo ability. Often he'd just go out there and put himself over without ever building up his opponent or an upcoming match of his.
Thirdly, his attitude stunk. You always knew Shawn wasn't going over within a half minute of a match starting. He'd just not give the same level of performance when he wasn't getting something out of it. Then you have things like Sunny Days, his tantrum in New York when the Survivor Series 96 crowd turned on him and just his general drug taking. A liability for lots of his career.
Last, but not least when it comes to proving he was overrated, he wasn't close to being a draw ever. For his fans I'll ask this, how come the 'greatest wrestler of all time' who was 'one of the best talkers of all time' bombed whenever he was champ like no-one else before or after him? No-one has had the full weight of the WWF/E machine put behind them like Shawn had in 1996 and failed so miserably. He got the main man push Hogan, Austin, Rock and Cena got and he was the only one of the five to blow it.
I haven't seen that match-up yet, you may well have a very good point, but considering it was a 6-9 month short comeback reign for Hogan, I don't think he should've been in the championship picture at all with his 0 title defenses, he should've won the tag titles with Brutus Beefcake instead, DEFEND them once or twice, and continue to co-main event with his new teammate for a while
Hogan didn't want to put Bret over because Bret v Hogan would have been billed as the new face of WWF vs the old face of WWF and, at that stage, Bret was getting the better crowd reactions and would have been the firm fan favourite. In 1993 everyone was sick of Hogan's schtick, it's the prime reason he quit wrestling, whilst Bret was redefining what the main event of the company would look like. Putting over a guy like Yoko instead of Bret worked in Hogan's favour for any future return, which I guarantee you he had at least half an eye on. This is the same Hogan who admits to purposefully trying to steal Warrior's spotlight after Warrior had pinned him in another face v face, passing of the torch match.