Moore/Hardy

[FromTheSouth]

It was brought up during the LD for Lockdown that Moore is being booked badly. The idea was that Moore is no different than Hardy, and should be booked on that level.

I'll let It's Damn Real explain his side, but there is a simple reason why Hardy is booked better than Moore. People care about Hardy and no one cares about Moore.

It is a common complaint that Hardy sucks on the mic. I disagree. I think his promos come off as heartfelt. Some of the best promo men in the business come off as scripted and contrived. It might be entertaining, but I prefer the alternative.....sometimes. Hardy never sounds scripted. It never sounds forced. It sounds like someone who grew up in a trailer in the south getting to live his lifelong dream. I believe him when he says that he will put his body on the line. I believe him when he says he is going to win. His promos hit home for me.

The most important thing a wrestler can do is make people care about said wrestler. Moore and Hardy could have the exact same moveset, but the difference is Hardy's timing creates excitement and while he does the high flying moves, they don't come off quite as choreographed as an X division match. The same goes for RVD. They are doing the same moved, but there isn't a feeling that they practiced the sequence for two days like a WCW lucha match. Moore's matches come off as choreographed, which creates excitement but takes away from the holy shit factor. Both men put their bodies on the line, but Jeff makes it look like life or death while Moore makes it look like he's trying out for the Olympic gymnastics team.

The complaint in the LD was that Moore is booked as a jobber and cannot be memorable in that role. I counter that thought by saying that Jeff Hardy spent two years jobbing to The Undertaker, but made the most of every second he spent on the TV, built a following, and he got to the point where any company has no choice to put him on top. Moore, as a jobber, has done nothing but become a guy with a few cool moves who can jerk the curtain. It's all because Jeff Hardy does everything with charisma and flair and Moore does everything like a luchabot. From promos to matches, Moore is working off of a script, while Hardy is an improv master.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I think what it comes down to, and you alluded to this FTS, is that Hardy can make people care about him and Moore can't. It doesn't matter if Jeff is World Champ or jobbing, the crowd gets behind and cares about him. Moore just looks like a cheap Jeff Hardy knock-off. The tattoos, the face paint, everything just screams "Hey! Cheer for me, I'm friends with Jeff!" I think he needs to do his own thing and move away from being a friend of Jeff Hardy and become Shannon Moore. Maybe then people will give a fuck about him.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

This all stemmed from the thread I wrote up questioning the heat Shannon gets around here, and most notably about the fact that I was told he's never had a memorable match in his entire wrestling career. Like I said in the LD, his three-way match tonight I thought was a good match that saw him hit a number of his signature spots (he does have those) including the springboard moonsault and the spinning wheel kick.

I don't think Moore is on the same level as Hardy because I think Hardy is/was more willing to do spots that absolutely vaulted him into the spotlight more than Moore, but I do think the two are very similar otherwise. I'll explain...

Despite being a Hardy mark myself, I find it very difficult to believe that he'd be in the position he's in if not for his willingness to put his body on the line night-after-night. Both Hardy & Moore began their (televised) pro-wrestling lives as jobbers, and both ran the WWE gauntlet (of sorts) as such for years before they began to build any type of fanbase following/momentum. So what's the difference? IMO, Hardy just so happened to come out on top because of his willingness to drop a Swanton Bomb onto his opponent from the top of a ladder – nothing more. I don't think his dialtone personality helped him one iota there, despite the fact you think it comes off as genuine.

Call me crazy, but I think Moore is a good worker. The only issue I really have with him is the mohawk. If not for the ridiculous false tribute to Native Americans, I think he'd be a very successful wrestler otherwise considering he's just as good on a mic (if not better, IMO) than Hardy, and equally as talented in the ring. I mean, let's not kid ourselves here into thinking Hardy is some fantastic mat wrestler. You take away the Swanton and Whisper in the Wind, and he's about as creative as Cena in terms of crafting a personal move set.

Do I think Moore is on the same level as Hardy? No – I answered that earlier, but I don't think he deserves half as much shit as he's given for riding Hardy's coat tales when you consider the amount of work he's put into his second TNA run (can we really even call it that seeing as he was in TNA for like three weeks prior to this?) either.

Also, for the record: I don't think Moore is being booked poorly. I think he was booked poorly (in the WWE), which limited the potential for him to ever break out as the moderate star I think he is.

When I refer to Moore being a jobber in the same sense as Hardy being one, I'm not referring to Hardy's two-year run as the Undertaker's personal spring board. Being the Undertaker's spring board still puts you on the map if you're having matches that take him to the limit the way Jeff did. That helped build Jeff. Moore was never privileged enough to receive the same rub from anyone even as remotely historic as the Underatker. His claim to fame in the WWE was beating Jeff's older and less talented brother Matt Hardy. That's it. That's why I say he wasn't booked to ever go over the way Hardy was, despite the fact both predominantly jobbed for the start of their careers there. Had Moore had the benefit of losing to Austin (for example) for two years, he'd have been on top of the world, too.

 

[FromTheSouth]

This all stemmed from the thread I wrote up questioning the heat Shannon gets around here, and most notably about the fact that I was told he's never had a memorable match in his entire wrestling history.

Honestly, and I am not mocking you at all, I don't think he has had a memorable match in his career.

Like I said in the LD, his three-way match tonight I thought was a good match that saw him hit a number of his signature spots (he does have those) including the springboard moonsault and the spinning wheel kick.

But, I remember what Homicide and Kaz did, and, to me, they could have had that match without Moore.

I don't think Moore is on the same level as Hardy because I think Hardy is/was more willing to do spots that absolutely vaulted him into the spotlight more than Moore, but I do think the two are very similar otherwise.

I'll agree with this to an extent, but I think it goes further than 30 foot Swantons. As I said in the OP, I think Hardy's timing with the moves, his ability to make surreal moves look perfectly normal within the context of the match is what gets people behind him. I don't know how to describe it, but the whisper in the wind always looks like it is the best counter to the situation. As opposed to other people with his style and in his weight class, Jeff Hardy doesn't do the unrealistic moves like the six spin head scissors or the 619. Those moves just tend to take me out of a match because they look both guys are cooperating to make that move happen. I guess that's what my problem is. A lot of cruisers, luchadores, or fliers put on matches that look like they take too much cooperation, which doesn't tell a good story. Jeff Hardy puts on matches that tell a story, but still have the spectacular moments. I am probably rambling, but to me, I can see a clear difference, and to me, that difference translates to why Jeff Hardy has a following and Moore really doesn't.

Despite being a Hardy mark myself, I find it very difficult to believe that he'd be in the position he's in if not for his willingness to put his body on the line night-after-night.

That has a lot to do with it. No doubt. But, he and RVD and even AJ just have something extra that guys with similar styles don't. There is more of an element of realism that draws you into the match despite some of the ridiculous spots. Like I said, Whisper usually looks like the appropriate counter while a lot of Moore's offense looks like the heel is counting 1-2-3 to prepare to put Moore's offense over.

Both Hardy & Moore began their (televised) pro-wrestling lives as jobbers, and both ran the WWE gauntlet (of sorts) as such for years before they began to build any type of fanbase following/momentum. So what's the difference? IMO, Hardy just so happened to come out on top because of his willingness to drop a Swanton Bomb onto his opponent from the top of a ladder – nothing more. I don't think his dialtone personality helped him one iota.

I disagree here. Hardy is definitely not The Rock on the mic, but when he gives a promo I feel he is ready for war. I think the crowd gets behind him in that it sounds like what he says is something he'd say.

Call me crazy, but I think Moore is a good worker.

I don't disagree that he's fun to watch. I do not think his matches look the slightest bit realistic though, and it takes me out of the show.

The only issue I really have with him is the mohawk. If not for the ridiculous false tribute to Native Americans, I think he'd be a very successful wrestler otherwise considering he's just as good on a mic (if not better, IMO) than Hardy, and equally as talented in the ring.

I think that if you had said capable instead of talented I might agree with you. Hardy has a talent for making, broken record style, absolutely ridiculous moves look contextually brilliant while Moore makes those same ridiculous moves look contrived.

I mean, let's not kid ourselves here into thinking Hardy is some fantastic mat wrestler. You take away the Swanton and Whisper in the Wind, and he's about as creative as Cena.

He mixes in some throws and suplexes from time to time. His kicks look solid and he has turned himself into a decent striker over the years. I would argue that Hardy's non flying offense is underrated, while Moore's is nonexistent.

Do I think Moore is on the same level as Hardy? No. I answered that earlier, but I don't think he deserves half as much shit as he's given for riding Hardy's coat tales when you consider the amount of work he's put into his second TNA run (can we really even call it that seeing as he was in TNA for like three weeks prior to this?).

I don't think Moore deserves any shit at all for riding anyone's coat tails. That would be like saying HHH rode HBK's coat tails. So the fuck what if they're friends. They just fill different spots on the card because Hardy has certain skill that build a following while Moore has skills that make him a good foil for more successful wrestlers.

Also, for the record: I don't think Moore is being booked poorly. I think he was booked poorly (in the WWE), which limited the potential for him to ever break out as the moderate star I think he is.

My mistake for assuming your meaning.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Honestly, and I am not mocking you at all, I don't think he has had a memorable match in his career.

Because he's never been primed to have been booked in one. That's on the bookers, not on Moore, IMO. Sorry for editing after the fact, but I explained that with regard to your comment that Hardy served as the Undertaker's personal spring board for two years.

As I noted above, when I refer to Moore being a jobber in the same sense as Hardy being one, I'm not referring to Hardy's two-year run as the Undertaker's personal spring board. Being the Undertaker's spring board still puts you on the map if you're having matches that take him to the limit the way Jeff did. That helped build Jeff. Moore was never privileged enough to receive the same rub from anyone even as remotely historic as the Underatker. His claim to fame in the WWE was beating Jeff's older and less talented brother Matt Hardy. That's it. That's why I say he wasn't booked to ever go over the way Jeff was, despite the fact both predominantly jobbed for the start of their careers there. Had Moore had the benefit of losing to Austin (for example) for two years, he'd have been on top of the world, too.

But, I remember what Homicide and Kaz did, and, to me, they could have had that match without Moore.

Well that's just personal preference then, I suppose, but I remember a number of Moore's spots in the match. Especially his spring board moonsault, which is one of his signature moves.

I'll agree with this to an extent, but I think it goes further than 30 foot Swantons. As I said in the OP, I think Hardy's timing with the moves, his ability to make surreal moves look perfectly normal within the context of the match is what gets people behind him. I don't know how to describe it, but the whisper in the wind always looks like it is the best counter to the situation. As opposed to other people with his style and in his weight class, Jeff Hardy doesn't do the unrealistic moves like the six spin head scissors or the 619. Those moves just tend to take me out of a match because they look both guys are cooperating to make that move happen. I guess that's what my problem is. A lot of cruisers, luchadores, or fliers put on matches that look like they take too much cooperation, which doesn't tell a good story. Jeff Hardy puts on matches that tell a story, but still have the spectacular moments. I am probably rambling, but to me, I can see a clear difference, and to me, that difference translates to why Jeff Hardy has a following and Moore really doesn't.

Yes, because Hardy was learned this (as in taught) by being booked into a position where he could hone his skill to that point by being booked against more experienced and more dominant performers in the industry like the Undertaker, HHH and others. The closest Moore came was jobbing to Matt Hardy for a year, and then every "monster" big guy the WWE had there after for the amusement of (then acting Smackdown GM) Paul Heyman. How do you intend to build a guy as an underdog or allow him to build a credible fanbase because of it if you never give him the opportunity to showcase that ability? I don't honestly believe that Moore is incapable of that. I just think he's never bee given the opportunity otherwise.

That has a lot to do with it. No doubt. But, he and RVD and even AJ just have something extra that guys with similar styles don't. There is more of an element of realism that draws you into the match despite some of the ridiculous spots. Like I said, Whisper usually looks like the appropriate counter while a lot of Moore's offense looks like the heel is counting 1-2-3 to prepare to put Moore's offense over.

I suppose, but I think Jeff built that over years of tortuous jobbing to the right guys more than he was simply born with it. That jobbing to the right guys allowed creative to book him as an underdog because he wasn't simply squashed in his matches. He took his opponents to the limit despite not gaining the win.

I disagree here. Hardy is definitely not The Rock on the mic, but when he gives a promo I feel he is ready for war. I think the crowd gets behind him in that it sounds like what he says is something he'd say.

See above.

I don't disagree that he's fun to watch. I do not think his matches look the slightest bit realistic though, and it takes me out of the show.

Understandable, but I feel with the right push that could change, honestly. I also think he needs to lose the false tribute to Native Americans if he expects to garner the levels of successes Jeff was capable of doing despite the unorthodox/untraditional look/style.

I think that if you had said capable instead of talented I might agree with you. Hardy has a talent for making, broken record style, absolutely ridiculous moves look contextually brilliant while Moore makes those same ridiculous moves look contrived.

Perhaps that wasn't the best terminology to use, but I still think that kind of ring timing was learned for Jeff by facing off against veterans who taught him that. Were we go to back and watch his matches when he began his singles career, I'm not so sure they'd have the same impact/aura as the matches he had on his way out, and that's based solely on the caliber of opponents he was facing at each time.

He mixes in some throws and suplexes from time to time. His kicks look solid and he has turned himself into a decent striker over the years. I would argue that Hardy's non flying offense is underrated, while Moore's is nonexistent.

I wouldn't chalk his non-aerial arsenal up any more than I would Cena's early work. IMO it worked for Cena because of his body type, which allowed him to come across as a brawler. Hardy doesn't have the same body type (at all), and thus he didn't have the same luxury for [technical] laziness.

I don't think Moore deserves any shit at all for riding anyone's coat tails. That would be like saying HHH rode HBK's coat tails. So the fuck what if they're friends. They just fill different spots on the card because Hardy has certain skill that build a following while Moore has skills that make him a good foil for more successful wrestlers.

Well you have to understand my position here is going to be two-pronged in that I'm going to defend Moore somewhat vehemently against his biggest knock which is that he's a parasite riding the Hardy wave, as well as objectively discuss his abilities with you here.

I don't see why him being friends with someone who's over matters at all so long as he's not eating the spotlight because of it. I certainly don't think him being booked into title contention hurt TNA any because he leap frogged Amazing Red. Red ain't so Amazing if you ask me, and certainly not as a long-term X Division solution to anything other than a desire to see highly unrealistic aerial maneuvers performed in a spot fest match. Moore IMO is a much better worker, and his character carries far more longevity than the guys he's apparently "leapfrogged".

 

[XgringolocoX]

I don't see Moore as a jeff knock off. Moore painted up WAY before hardy did. Also, Moore is a tattoo artist. Gas Chamber Ink his place is called I believe.
They are good friends that came up in the business together. I'm sure they taught eachother stuff. They have similarities, it's natural considering their relationship. Just because Jeff is the bigger star doesn't require a knock against Moore.
I can see Jeff in the ME, Moore not so much. That doesn't mean he can't, or shouldn't be successful.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I think if Moore dressed in normal wrestling gear as an underdog people would care and cheer for him more. I don't think his mic skills are terrible and he is a good worker in the ring. When you take a small wrestler and turn him into a punk character it just screams I'm not interesting and I'm trying to be controversial. Punk hasn't been cool in decades. Wearing black with piercings, tattoos, and a Mohawk isn't controversial anymore.

People probably don't get behind him because they don't know what he is about or what the hell he is saying. Jeff Hardy is the same way now because no one really knows what he is about or what the hell he is saying either. The difference is that Hardy is more established and has been around longer. If you are new and trying to get over with a bad gimmick no one will take you serious. It might be a different story if Moore was a heel, but his gimmick is so retro.

I think he needs to be repackaged so people will cheer for him and route for him like they did with The Hardy Boys.

 

[Jon E Lymm]

Got to agree with Kenny. When Shannon was in WWE the first time round and he was starting to be packaged as the underdog against the bigger guys, he was starting to get over.

I remember Paul Heyman kept putting him up against guys like Nathan Jones, Lesnar, Matt Morgan etc. and the crowd were starting to get behind him, kind of how they get behind Rey Mysterio in the underdog role. Not sure what happened to that, but it didn't stick for long.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Got to agree with Kenny. When Shannon was in WWE the first time round and he was starting to be packaged as the underdog against the bigger guys, he was starting to get over.

I remember Paul Heyman kept putting him up against guys like Nathan Jones, Lesnar, Matt Morgan etc. and the crowd were starting to get behind him, kind of how they get behind Rey Mysterio in the underdog role. Not sure what happened to that, but it didn't stick for long.

He was released from his contract I believe, but thank you for proving my point further.

Had the push he might have been receiving as Heyman's personal chew toy had continued to the point that he became the David in a David v. Goliath style match-up and actually won at some point, he'd basically have been given the same spring board as Hardy and subsequently the same ability to develop a cult-like following. They are very similar wrestlers. Jeff just so happened to have lucked out in that he stuck through the shit longer (for whatever reason) and ended up coming out on top. I don't think Moore is incapable of doing the same, I just don't think he was ever given the chance.

 

[dman1373]

When did Jeff all of a sudden become great worker? When did he get great timing? I don't get this, people are coming up with the most ridiculous ideas. Jeff Hardy is a good worker with 3 good spots. Their amazingly done, but their just moves. He doesn't have the best conception of ring psychology. His only memorable feud outside of the tag team scene is with cm punk, that is more because of cm punk. I haven't heard any bad things about shanoon at allNow your bashinng a guy just like him. I just don't get it. Just because he's not one of the top babyfaces, doesn't mean you have to bash him.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

When did Jeff all of a sudden become great worker? When did he get great timing? I don't get this, people are coming up with the most ridiculous ideas. Jeff Hardy is a good worker with 3 good spots. Their amazingly done, but their just moves. He doesn't have the best conception of ring psychology. His only memorable feud outside of the tag team scene is with cm punk, that is more because of cm punk. I haven't heard any bad things about shanoon at allNow your bashinng a guy just like him. I just don't get it. Just because he's not one of the top babyfaces, doesn't mean you have to bash him.

So many things wrong in this post.

Jeff Hardy has great ring psychology, sells well, and gets the crowd excited for each and every match he is in. I don't care if he just jumps off high stuff because that is what he has done his whole career and look where it is gotten him. Jeff Hardy has had memorable feuds with HHH and the Undertaker when he was just breaking into singles competition. I attribute the Hardy/Punk feud to Hardy way more than I do Punk because of Hardy's past. You can take that as good or bad if you want to. Hardy was the perfect guy for Punk to turn heel against because of his past issues and Punk hasn't done any better than when he was feuding with Jeff.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

So many things wrong in this post.

Jeff Hardy has great ring psychology, sells well, and gets the crowd excited for each and every match he is in. I don't care if he just jumps off high stuff because that is what he has done his whole career and look where it is gotten him. Jeff Hardy has had memorable feuds with HHH and the Undertaker when he was just breaking into singles competition. I attribute the Hardy/Punk feud to Hardy way more than I do Punk because of Hardy's past. You can take that as good or bad if you want to. Hardy was the perfect guy for Punk to turn heel against because of his past issues and Punk hasn't done any better than when he was feuding with Jeff.

Yes, because he was learned it by feuding with (and jobbing to) numerous historic icons in the wrestling industry who taught him that, so why is Shannon Moore incapable of producing the same feat if given the same opportunity to feud with (and job to) other historic icons in the industry? You don't think Moore could develop that same underdog feel-good build were he booked against guys who could teach him the same things Hardy was taught?

Please understand this is a thread about the Moore/Hardy reference, and not just about Jeff. I don't want this thing getting side tracked into an ancillary argument over what Jeff is or isn't capable of.

 

[dman1373]

So many things wrong in this post.

Jeff Hardy has great ring psychology, sells well, and gets the crowd excited for each and every match he is in. I don't care if he just jumps off high stuff because that is what he has done his whole career and look where it is gotten him. Jeff Hardy has had memorable feuds with HHH and the Undertaker when he was just breaking into singles competition. I attribute the Hardy/Punk feud to Hardy way more than I do Punk because of Hardy's past. You can take that as good or bad if you want to. Hardy was the perfect guy for Punk to turn heel against because of his past issues and Punk hasn't done any better than when he was feuding with Jeff.

First of all, I WANT YOU to tell me what match showed how great his in ring psychology is. What match was great because of him. I mean without him jumping off of stuff. And i agree he sells well and gets the crowd excited. I never denied that. But to insinuate that his feuds with HHH and Taker were anything less than ordinary is crazy. I don't even remember what they were about. Now lets get to punk. Yeah its true that the fued couldn't have happend without jeff's past, but punks promos carried that feud.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

First of all, I WANT YOU to tell me what match showed how great his in ring psychology is. What match was great because of him. I mean without him jumping off of stuff. And i agree he sells well and gets the crowd excited. I never denied that. But to insinuate that his feuds with HHH and Taker were anything less than ordinary is crazy. I don't even remember what they were about. Now lets get to punk. Yeah its true that the fued couldn't have happend without jeff's past, but punks promos carried that feud.

How about his 2001 and 2008 matches with HHH for starters? I don't remember him jumping off stuff during those matches. You don't remember a lot do you? Undertaker turned heel in 2001 and was beating up the Hardy Boyz for most of 2002 which led to Jeff challenging Undertaker for the title. You seemed to forget in 2001 when Austin and HHH destroyed Jeff, Matt, and Lita which led to Jeff winning the IC title from HHH. There's a refresher course.

As it pertains to Moore, I think he is ok even though I'm not a fan of his. I believe he desperately needs a new gimmick as the whole punk thing has been played out for years. His moves seemed a tad choreographed but that's not a huge issue to me. If Moore would have stayed in the WWE a little longer, I believe he could have learned more from the veterans and picked up on the little things they were doing to make them great and I think he could have had a decent midcard run.

Punk and Hardy had equal parts in that feud and both played their roles perfectly. How has Punk done since that feud? Not very well because he can't play off his straightedge gimmick better on anybody else than Hardy. It failed with the Undertaker and is failing with Mysterio. Morrison would be a good start but it still pales in comparison to Hardy.

 

[ramblinroy6868]

Here's my take: Hardy came up with his brother in a tag team that was doing things that hadn't been seen before on a level like WWE. ECW was around but it wasn't as mainstream as it would become. The Hardy's found the right feud with Edge and Christian to push them to the fan favorites that they were. Neither Hardy is great on the mic. Jeff is more entertaining in the ring. The stuff he was doing in the ladder matches was great. He was in the right place at the right time and his popularity took off.

Replace Hardy with Moore in those matches. Would Moore be that popular? I don't think so. I don't think Moore would be willing to put himself in some of the spots that Hardy has. It had been documented that Hardy doesn't seem to care about his body and he doesn't seem to ever get hurt. Moore doesn't have that reputation.

I am from NC and have watched these guys wrestle in bars that hold 50 people. I watched Jeff Hardy wrestle as Willow the Wisp in the Berkeley Cafe in Raleigh. He just brought that excitement to his moves that Moore doesn't have. People notice it. That is why the crowd loves him. That is why Vince signed him and his brother and not Moore right away. They had that it factor.