Mexican region, Regional Finals: (1) Trish Stratus vs (7) Manami Toyota

[Bernkastel]

This is a third round match in the Mexican region. It is a standard wrestling match. It will be held at the Arena Mexico in Mexico City .

#1 Trish Stratus

VS.

#7 Manami Toyota​

There will be 1 day of discussion before the poll opens. It will remain open for 2 days. Spam rules will apply. In case of a tie the winner will be decided based upon how many people have made a case for them in the discussion thread. One per each poster.

Who wins the match up?

 

[Lowdown]

Here's another case where I know little to nothing about one of the competitors. Considering that Toyota made it this far she must have game. But I do know how good Trish was, so for that she gets my vote.

 

[Bernkastel]

I am going to be as objective about this match as I can, so I'm going to use the same criteria I use to measure the male wrestlers...

Category 1 - drawing power....

Included in this category is popularity, and both have that down in spades. Trish being most likely the most popular women's wrestler in WWE history, while Manami was the most popular women's wrestler in Japan. But did Trish really draw?

While neither women can be compared to their male counterparts, Manami spent her career working for all female promotions that had to rely on the drawing power of the women to make money. Trish had the backing of a multi million dollar promotion that did all the promotional work for her. And on big shows she got to co-star with men that drew allot more. Manami didn't get to work shows with her popular male to help boost gate sizes. It was on her as the champion to draw money, and she did. Through her career with AJW she drew numerous sellout shows as champion. A testament to her decorated career. She has dawn several gates over 10,000 while wrestling in the main event. And a few that drew right under that but more than 5,000.

Both were popular. But Trish had the backing of both a massive company to promote her matches and men that were more popular than she had been. Manami didn't have that while working in AJW. Trish and Lita main evented RAW once, and the attendance for the show was a lousy 4,000. The TV rating for the show remained at a constant 3.9. Meaning Trish's match didn't hurt the show, but it didn't help it either. Manami on the other hand proved herself not only to be popular, but a reliable draw in a way that Trish never got to be.

- Point Manami

Category 2 - Charisma...

For the men I lump in talking ability with charisma, because that's part of it. The way I define "charisma" is getting people to like your character. Whether that be by talking, body language, working matches a certain way... when a pro wrestler has charisma fans are drawn to them. And it doesn't matter what era, charisma is the same. Trish had charisma. Manami had charisma. But who had more?

Trish was a better pure talker. Both on camera and off. She could walk down the ramp and cut a promo like almost nobody else. Even most of the men were shit compared to her. And the WWE rewarded her talents with copious segments. A 2005 era Trish promo segment lasted longer than most modern Divas matches. Off camera she was a natural. She's a people person. She'd fit right at home in the pioneer era, where she'd have to travel from city to city, talking to reporters to hype up her ability and matches. She was a pure showman.

Manami on the hand wasn't much of a talker, but she when she did she spoke with earnest. Her interviews are soft spoken, but you can tell she still oozes a level of confidence. Her ability was to draw the fans into her character. Often the heroine. Often a friend. This woman looked and acted like a champion. And fans believed in her. That's the essence of charisma, but yet there are plenty of women today that don't have it. Even if they can act.

Despite that, Trish could play up a character as well. Brilliant as both a heel or face. Seriously... a 500 pound man once crushed this woman and people cheered him because that's how good she was at getting people to hate her. No acting from Manami can top that.

- Point Trish.

Category 3 - Accolades...

A quick glance at Manami's resume would be all that it would take to suggest that she had a more successful career, but did she?

Trish was a 7 time women's champion during the "golden era" for women's wrestling in WWE. Called as such because there weren't any other era's that lasted as long and on the same level. Wendi Richter era lasted 4 years. And wasn't popular. Madusa's era lasted two year and was popular... but Trish's lasted 7 and the WWE was more popular as a whole. After Sable the division drifted until Trish won the belt and ushered in that "golden era." And it was largely due to her efforts that the era lasted as long as it did.7 titles reigns. With more than 800 days spent as champion. Twice the time as anyone else from her era. Longer than anyone in history other than Moolah. Staggering statistics.

Manami spent around 200 days as AJW champion before her "prime" as a top star. Then Manami spent an ungodly amount of time [1100+ days] as IWA women's champion, as a AJW representative. She defended that belt 8 times, and it was afterwards that she was really pushed as the "best in the world." She won the WWWA in 1995 when the company was at it's peak. The title being at the level of Trish's women's champion because of 2 reasons...

1.) Manami was a big draw and popular champion
2.) She had lots of competition.

She held the WWWA 4 times for a combined 850+ days. Really about 20 days longer than Trish held the women's title. Manami held other titles, but none as important as the WWWA title.

So which was more impressive? Trish's 7 title for 830 days or Manami's 4 titles for 850 days? Both faced stiff competition and feuds. Both had classic matches along the way. I think ultimately the blemish is that Manami was more consistent. At one point Trish was injured and instead of vacating the belt she held on to it. A testament to her popularity, but her it's a bit of a detriment.

- Point Manami. Just barely.

Category 4 - Ability...

Japanese wrestling and American wrestling differ due to what the audience wants to see. What Trish did in her matches was exactly what audiences wanted to see. What Manami did was exactly what audiences wanted to see. So how do you decide who was better?

Manami drew more money, but only because she was in that position. Trish didn't get to draw ten of thousands of people because the WWE shpws are not structured that way. And yet her popularity remained on the level of many of the top male stars. Even now years later. And that reflects her ability.

Trish was a showman. She was great at using psychology, her body language, the way she sold. All perfect. Sure she botched a bit, but even the likes of Rock and Austin weren't perfect so Manami's moveset was over the top. And that's the way matches were done in AJW. It was a struggle; a fight to the finish. People that watch anime. Do you know how over the top that shit is? Wrestling in AJPW and AJW is similar. You've got these larger than life characters who beat the shit out of each other. During one match with Aja Kong Manami took 4 piledrivers and one through a table and still won the match. Does that make her tougher than Trish? Er... no.

Trish found a way to out wrestle and pin Jazz in a pure contest. She survived against the deranged Victoria in hardcore matches. Nothing as over the top as Joshi wrestling, but for the setting of WWE, Trish was as tough as nails. After watching allot of both women, I'd say Trish was better. But not by much.

- Point Trish.

Category 5 - Longevity...

This category also includes consistency, and I think Manami was more consistent. Trish was injured. Didn't drop the title. Held on to it because she was the overwhelmingly best choice. That meant Trish's "pond" was smaller than Manami's.

When you look at Trish's title history you can see the women's division's history being written. Feuds with Jazz, Victoria, Molly, then Lita one after the other. Manami's wasn't pushed as regularly, but that's because her "pond" was much larger. Manami never went any longer than 3 years without holding the WWWA belt, and bode her time with other endeavors. At that point she really could have held the belt when she wanted too, and in 2002 - 7 years after her first reign - she did. And for over 4 months.

Manami had a longer career than Trish. And I think that's her greatest weakness. But you can't fault her for wanting to get married, have children, and try other things. Manami on the other hand is over 40, has never been married, and has no children. She's contributing to the population decline in her native country. But hey! On the flip side she gets to say she's one of the greatest pro wrestlers of all time.

- Point Manami

Category 6 - Overall legacy...

And now we come to the tough part. Who really left the greater legacy? When you think about it the Divas division is shit now, and joshi is on the decline in Japan. With AJW, GAEA, and other once big promotions all out of business. Doors these two seemingly opened have now been closed. But that happens.

Both were innovators. In different ways. Manami invented flashy moves on the fly, while Trish introduced a feminine, flexible style of fighting that was totally different than what any of the men did. Women on the Indy's still try to follow that lead, and it's one fo the things that really gave women's wrestling Stateside some charm.

Manami's longevity and popularity have left her to be revered not just by Japanese audiences but American audiences too. Many women have tried emulating her, if just to capture a little bit of her charisma.

Trish was recognized as Diva of the Decade, symbolized the fact that WWE recognizes her as the greatest of the modern era. But as the greatest of all time? I'm sure they'd probably rank Moolah ahead of her...without marking ploy to try and create a new biased truth [like with their 50 "greatest" DVD ]

Manami was awarded Wrestler of the Year in 1995. And has racked up an impressive 14 five star matches. People might say Chigusa Nagayo was better, but most will rank Manami the greatest joshi ever. Ex-AJW executives certainly would. Even today she remains a cornerstone of women's wrestling. Putting over the next generation and training new stars. Ultimately I feel her legacy will be felt much deeper. When pro wrestling picks back up in Japan they'll be another boom period. Manami Toyota will have reached icon status because she's still active. Trish's legacy will never die, but unfortunately she will probably fall to the way side like big stars tend to do over time with no immediate exposure. Happened to Wendi Richter. Happened to Madusa. And it happened to Sable.

- Point Manami.

So with 4 categories to 2 categories I'll give my vote to Manami Toyota.

Vote Manami.

 

[Papa Pillman]

Brilliant post Ech, and it sums this match up nicely to help explain the edges that Toyota possesses in a fair battle.

But I'll take serious issue with you awarding a "point" to Trish over Manami in wrestling ability.

Trish, perhaps just as much so as Lita, could be classified as the female version of a spot artist. She wasn't much better than average in overall ability, but she did have a good understanding of when the right time was to pull out something dramatic, and she usually executed when she did. She also should be commended for steady growth as a performer in the ring throughout her career.

With all of that said, Toyota was already a superior worker as a teenager than any level Trish ever got to by the time she retired. She, conservatively, has at least fifteen or more different performances in the ring over the course of her career that are objectively lightyears better than anything Trish ever achieved.

Toyota is one of the most consistently great in-ring workers I've ever watched, male of female, while Trish was pretty good for a WWE Diva- Full stop.

If Trish wins this its a joke and a pure popularity contest based on absolutely zero justifiable means outside of name recognition among voters, who would merely be proving their ignorance.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Brilliant post Ech, and it sums this match up nicely to help explain the edges that Toyota possesses in a fair battle.

Agreed, he summed it up quite well and this would be a very close match.

But I'll take serious issue with you awarding a "point" to Trish over Manami in wrestling ability.

Trish, perhaps just as much so as Lita, could be classified as the female version of a spot artist. She wasn't much better than average in overall ability, but she did have a good understanding of when the right time was to pull out something dramatic, and she usually executed when she did. She also should be commended for steady growth as a performer in the ring throughout her career.

You have GOT to be kidding me. Have you even watched a Trish Stratus match before? She's one of the most talented women wrestlers of all time. She didn't get her 7 Womens Championships and MAIN EVENTING RAW by being attractive. If that was the case then Kelly Kelly would have just as many title reigns to her name. Trish made the improvements she needed and legitimately wanted to get better, which she did, and ushered in the most popular era of womens wrestling in the WWE. Had she been "average" then this would never have happened. Lita is better than you give her credit for also.

With all of that said, Toyota was already a superior worker as a teenager than any level Trish ever got to by the time she retired. She, conservatively, has at least fifteen or more different performances in the ring over the course of her career that are objectively lightyears better than anything Trish ever achieved.

Name one that's "lightyears ahead" of main eventing the flagship show of the world's biggest wrestling federation or setting the record for most title reigns of said federation's most prestigious female championship belt, all doing this while competing against some of the best women the division has ever seen? 4 time PWI Woman of The Year, and PWI Woman Of The Decade, how about those? Is that "average" too?

If Trish wins this its a joke and a pure popularity contest based on absolutely zero justifiable means outside of name recognition among voters, who would merely be proving their ignorance.

No, if Trish wins it is because she deserves to move on to the next round. If this was a "real" match between the two, Manami might win as she may have more legitimate skills, but this is a pro wrestling match. Trish's accomplishments justify why she would win a very close match against Manami here.

Vote Trish.

 

[Skairipa Matrix]

I'm voting Trish. She's one of the best women to ever wrestle in a WWE ring and that's impressive when you consider how she started. I may have to vote against her next round though.

 

[Papa Pillman]

You have GOT to be kidding me. Have you even watched a Trish Stratus match before? She's one of the most talented women wrestlers of all time.

No. Just no.

One of the most talented WWE Divas of all time? maybe. But no where near one of the best women's wrestlers, not even remotely close.

Trish made the improvements she needed and legitimately wanted to get better,

I freely admitted this and commended her for it. I respect immensely how hard Trish worked to become a good wrestler.

Had she been "average" then this would never have happened.

I never said she was average. In fact I said she was above average.

Trish was a way above average worker as far as WWE Divas go. And a slightly above average worker as far as women's wrestling in general.

Manami on the other hand is the greatest female worker the business has ever produced.

Lita is better than you give her credit for also.

Not really the argument here, but... No. She's not.

She was the definition of a limited spot monkey who got by on a look, a willingness to take chances, a couple flashy moves, and a connection with the Hardy's.

As a pro wrestler, calling her overall skill set average would be being EXTREMELY generous. I wouldn't say the same of Trish, she was tenfold the worker that Lita was.

Name one that's "lightyears ahead" of main eventing the flagship show of the world's biggest wrestling federation or setting the record for most title reigns of said federation's most prestigious female championship belt

I was referring to ability as a worker and match quality produced, not accomplishments.

Toyota owns nearly 15 five star matches, Trish never so much as sniffed a four star match during her career.

all doing this while competing against some of the best women the division has ever seen?

Again facing some of the best women the WWE women's division "has ever seen" is like being the smartest kid in special ed class. The competition Trish dominated is a joke compared to quality of opposition that Toyota spent a career working with.

4 time PWI Woman of The Year, and PWI Woman Of The Decade, how about those? Is that "average" too?

Again, never said Trish was average.

As for the awards, WON named Toyota 1995's most outstanding wrestler, no other woman has ever even been in consideration for the award. In '93 and '95 they deemed she had the Match of the Year, again the only times that the award has been given to a women's match. They inducted her into the Hall Of Fame in 2002, despite her still being in her relative prime.

As for the PWI awards, they didn't give out the women's award between 1977 and 1999, or Toyota would've won twice as many "woman of the year" honors as Trish and would've been the choice for top woman wrestler of the 90s by a landslide.

Trish's accomplishments justify why she would win a very close match against Manami here.

They quite simply DO NOT. The only accomplishment that Trish owns that would justify her being voted ahead of Toyota is the one where she wrestled for WWE and therefore had more eyes on her. In every other way Toyota is vastly superior as a pro wrestler.

 

[Bernkastel]

Brilliant post Ech, and it sums this match up nicely to help explain the edges that Toyota possesses in a fair battle.

Thanks. I tried to be fair in my assessment.

Trish, perhaps just as much so as Lita, could be classified as the female version of a spot artist.

Nah. Trish had signature moves that were performed at certain points in the match, but I wouldn't call those "spots." That's the kind of modern wrestling that even the men do. Lita was more of a "spot wrestler." She'd do the moonsault or hurricanrana in order to pop the crowd. That's how she first built up her popularity.

She wasn't much better than average in overall ability, but she did have a good understanding of when the right time was to pull out something dramatic, and she usually executed when she did.

You've got to understand the difference between American and Japanese wrestling then. Just because Manami can do 100 different moves doesn't make her better. And it also doesn't mean that Trish could not have been trained to do the same moves. They worked matches under what their respective audiences wanted to see. WWE audiences didn't want to see over the top flashy moves all the time because they would have gotten bored of it. Not the Japanese. The more over the top, the better. For them.

So in that context which woman worked matches that better pleased their crowds? Manami drew more, sure. But Trish took a shit division and turned it into something highly respected.

I don't put allot of stock into Meltzer because of his biased opinions, and PWI's criteria I don't really understand half the time. Looking at one or the other both women have won countless awards. Trish was given awards through WWE, who are biased when it comes to their own history.

For me the reason why I edged out Trish in that category was that she accomplished more with less. AJW had many standout performers other than Manami, and their foundation was already set when she became champion. And they were all treated better than the Divas during that golden era. Trish was the standout star. In a division that had Jazz, Molly, Victoria, Lita, and later Mickie James and Melina.

None of those girls could carry the belt like Trish Stratus. When Manami wasn't champion AJW still had Aja Kong. They still had Kyoko Inoue. Despite all the women that held the women's championship in the WWE, Trish always got it back. Because she remained the best choice as champion.

And that's why I gave her the point.

But in the other categories I felt Manami was better and would edge out the victory. This is probably the closet and most even match in the tournament so far IMO. Like Mitsuharu Misawa vs The Rock.

 

[Papa Pillman]

Like Mitsuharu Misawa vs The Rock.

I would call that a fairly accurate analogy. However I'd say its a little closer to Misawa versus Edge.

Its hard to use the Rock in an analogy for any female worker due to the comparison being skewed by Rock's A-list status that so strongly transcends wrestling. Trish was as popular and over as a woman can get from the standpoint of the business itself, but didn't really transcend the business, and definitely not like the Rock has.

I like Edge in the comparison better as he and Trish were both first generation Canadian stars who became legends from the WWE sense and spent years hovering at the top of the main event scene piling up World Championships. Also both were fine, but not outstanding pure workers, with a good feel for when and how to really pop the crowd. And both were rightfully massively over as a result, though rarely being the primary name selling a card.

Either way I'd take Misawa over either the Rock, by a small but clear margin, or over Edge, by quite a large degree. And I'll vote Toyota over Stratus for many of the same reasons that would compel me to choose Misawa.

 

[nightmare]

As good as Toyota was, she just never caught the world on fire like Trish did. Blame it on lack of awareness or mainstream attention all you want, but if you are great, then people will know your name regardless of region or the promotion you wrestle in.


Trish getting to main event Raw was a huge deal & her progression over the years allowed us to see one of the best female wrestlers ever. She really did have the total package & if I was going to use anyone as a model to construct the ideal talent- she would be at the top of a very short list. This is more than just a preference for me. I respect Toyota for what she has done, but you certainly cannot deny the huge impact that Trish has had on the sport, especially for future generations & her list of accomplishments backs it up.



I am giving this to Trish.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Here's the issues I see here - we have a Japanese wrestler with relatively little experience against western opponents against a north American wrestler with no experience against Japanese opponents. Then we have the difference between these nations philosophy on the sport - the Japanese being more wrestling based versus the WWe's sport's entertainment slant. As such, we are looking at two of the very best in their respective arenas.

Generally, I would give the edge to the western superstar because the WWe is a global entity on a much larger scale than their Japanese counterparts... however, I am going to make an exception here simply down to the sheer longevity Toyota has displayed and her consistent time on top - Manami is approaching quadrupling Trish's career and showing no sign of stopping. That deserves my respect and vote.

Vote Manami Toyota.