Mark Madden on Samoa Joe

[FromTheSouth]

If you haven't read Madden's column on Samoa Joe, I strongly recommend it.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/column.php?articleid=222480154

I agree with him. I was a Samoa Joe fan until I read the column. I still am, but not nearly as much. AJ had always been my favorite within the promotion, with Joe close behind.

The way he has been booked reminds me of early 90's Sting. Sting would be drawn in by Ric Flair, and then turned on. He would be drawn in by nWo, and then turned on. He would be drawn in by girl scouts, only to get knocked out by a box of Thin Mints the second he turned around. The only difference is that Sting would come out fighting, while Joe seems to come out whining. I was waiting for Nash to lay him out last week. Joe is supposed to be the top face, but he sounds like MVP during his Vickie hates me phase. He sounds like Terrell Owens throwing McNabb under the bus. Boo Hoo nobody likes you.

I couldn't put voice to my annoyance until I read the Mark Madden column.

That sums up Joe the character, now Joe the man is even worse off. If you are at the top of the card, you should have some creative control. Can he not walk into Disco's office and tell he and Russo to stop making him look like a bitch? Did Jeff Jarrett sit Joe down and tell him that if he wants to be champ, he needs to whine? Joe stand up and be a man. Tell them that you got over as a killing machine. Tell them that you are the Samoan Submission Machine, and that you are one of the best workers in the promotion. Tell them to let your ability do your talking, and back it up in promo as a badass. You went from a bad mother fucker to a two year old in time out, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[dzonewrestle1]

If you haven't read Madden's column on Samoa Joe, I strongly recommend it.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/column.php?articleid=222480154

I agree with him. I was a Samoa Joe fan until I read the column. I still am, but not nearly as much. AJ had always been my favorite within the promotion, with Joe close behind.

The way he has been booked reminds me of early 90's Sting. Sting would be drawn in by Ric Flair, and then turned on. He would be drawn in by nWo, and then turned on. He would be drawn in by girl scouts, only to get knocked out by a box of Thin Mints the second he turned around. The only difference is that Sting would come out fighting, while Joe seems to come out whining. I was waiting for Nash to lay him out last week. Joe is supposed to be the top face, but he sounds like MVP during his Vickie hates me phase. He sounds like Terrell Owens throwing McNabb under the bus. Boo Hoo nobody likes you.

I couldn't put voice to my annoyance until I read the Mark Madden column.

That sums up Joe the character, now Joe the man is even worse off. If you are at the top of the card, you should have some creative control. Can he not walk into Disco's office and tell he and Russo to stop making him look like a bitch? Did Jeff Jarrett sit Joe down and tell him that if he wants to be champ, he needs to whine? Joe stand up and be a man. Tell them that you got over as a killing machine. Tell them that you are the Samoan Submission Machine, and that you are one of the best workers in the promotion. Tell them to let your ability do your talking, and back it up in promo as a badass. You went from a bad mother fucker to a two year old in time out, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

Mark Madden is wrong in my opinion. Joe is doing his job when he follows TNA's scripts. And it doesn't take a high IQ to know that Vince Russo is most likely behind Joe being booked as a constant whiner and complainer b*tch. Russo has been known to not really understand basic story fundamentals, but because he's Jeff Jarrett's friend, he still has a job in wrestling. In 05, 06, when Russo wasn't there, Joe was a basic badass, didn't speak much, and had great matches all the time. He was super over. At the 06 Bound for Glory, fans wanted to see Jarrett vs. Joe with Joe finally going over, but instead Joe was placed in a meaningless 4-way no dq match with Abyss, Spike and Raven. Potential hit #1 right there. In my opinion wrestling is a 50/50 wrestler/booker deal, and if the booker is incompetent, then the wrestler's potential to draw is weakened. WWE's backstage segment scripting has improved extremely over the years to where the backstage stuff 90% of the time is now movie-quality. In TNA, Joe is booked to whine and scream every 5 seconds. Also, when Joe's match finishes are layed out Russo WCW 2000 style, many fans don't care. Mark Madden is dead wrong, Joe deserves his success. You said Joe has no one to blame but himself. Joe is simply doing his job. If he complains too much, Jeff will shut him down booking wise and he'll be booked even worse. Mark's column is like saying Sting, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, and Goldberg just "aren't putting much effort" in WCW anymore in the year 2000. No, the people behind WCW's writing and managment were so out of touch at that time, that no one gave a crap about any WCW star.

WWE and Vince McMahon know what they are doing, thats why Batista isn't ALWAYS mad, Cena isn't ALWAYS mad, WWE knows how to book.

 

[Miko]

I have got to say that I really cant stand Samoa Joe, Maddens right anyway he is only a star to the ROH crowd.
When Jim Cornette comes out to the ring and says "we dont give our titles away, especially not to our son's-in-law" it makes me think that I would rather watch HHH as the champ than Samoa Joe simple as that.
I am fully against the whole idea of someone not having the "look", I think that Rey Mysterio did deserve his title reign for example despite not having the "look" but I really cant get my head around the idea of someone being the top face of a company who has a belly that folds over itself, people complain about JBL but I'd rather watch him jiggle about than Samoa Joe.

The point is the whole "Samoan Submission Machine" thing was getting old and the character has been updated and sucks even more now. I watch Impact in the UK and the only part I turn the TV off is with Samoa Joe, I just dont find him believable at all.

I didnt get what was so great about him in the ring, sure he's a bit athletic for a fat guy but apart from that he's below average, he's supposed to be some kind of brawler but his punches look weak and the guy having to sell them looks ridiculous (Kurt Angle/Booker T).
If he had some charisma or a ring presence that even Umaga has it wouldnt matter so much, maybe I am biased because I never could stand him but TNA could do so much better out of their homegrown talent than Samoa Joe.

 

[AnthonyMango/NoFate007]

To be fair, before I say the following, I've never been a fan of TNA and I don't pay too much attention to them, because I can't sit through an entire episode of Impact without shutting it off and taking a break.

Samoa Joe, to me, is boring. He's outlived his usefulness. It was worth a shot to give him the title, but it isn't working, so they should move on. He went from being the face equivalent of a monster, to becoming the fat guy you can poke fun at.

I think there are two options they can do:

1) Start booking him as someone that just can't lose. Have him blow through the competition, not talk much, and simply be like a fat Goldberg. Then, before the fans get tired of it, have a younger guy that you want to push to the main event (someone like Roode would work) defeat him, getting a massive rub by being the one guy who can defeat the unstoppable big guy.

2) Give the title to Sting, and then have him lose it to AJ Styles when their program is over, effectively replacing Joe with Styles, who has more charisma and could really run with the title.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Mark Madden is wrong in my opinion. Joe is doing his job when he follows TNA's scripts. And it doesn't take a high IQ to know that Vince Russo is most likely behind Joe being booked as a constant whiner and complainer b*tch. Russo has been known to not really understand basic story fundamentals, but because he's Jeff Jarrett's friend, he still has a job in wrestling. In 05, 06, when Russo wasn't there, Joe was a basic badass, didn't speak much, and had great matches all the time. He was super over. At the 06 Bound for Glory, fans wanted to see Jarrett vs. Joe with Joe finally going over, but instead Joe was placed in a meaningless 4-way no dq match with Abyss, Spike and Raven. Potential hit #1 right there. In my opinion wrestling is a 50/50 wrestler/booker deal, and if the booker is incompetent, then the wrestler's potential to draw is weakened. WWE's backstage segment scripting has improved extremely over the years to where the backstage stuff 90% of the time is now movie-quality. In TNA, Joe is booked to whine and scream every 5 seconds. Also, when Joe's match finishes are layed out Russo WCW 2000 style, many fans don't care. Mark Madden is dead wrong, Joe deserves his success. You said Joe has no one to blame but himself. Joe is simply doing his job. If he complains too much, Jeff will shut him down booking wise and he'll be booked even worse. Mark's column is like saying Sting, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, and Goldberg just "aren't putting much effort" in WCW anymore in the year 2000. No, the people behind WCW's writing and managment were so out of touch at that time, that no one gave a crap about any WCW star.

WWE and Vince McMahon know what they are doing, thats why Batista isn't ALWAYS mad, Cena isn't ALWAYS mad, WWE knows how to book.

You're missing the point. Joe should have creative control, being that he is at the top of the card. Nash walked out on a show, and is getting pushed. Do you think Jarrett would shut Joe down for saying he's being booked wrong. I'm pretty sure that Russo has more to do with the scripting than Jarrett. Jarrett may very well give the big ideas, but men like Russo and Disco shape the character.

In WCW 2000, there was a reason that the stupid angles didn't center around Sting and Nash....they said no, and Joe should be doing the same.

 

[BallsBallsBalls]

I am going to 100 percent agree with Mark Madden. I never saw what the big deal about Samoa Joe was all about. Sure there have been fat guys who have made it big i.e. Mick Foley but comparing Mick Foley and Samoa Joe is like comparing apples and oranges. Foley has charisma, is good on the mic, is good in the sympathetic role, has been a number 1 best selling author on more than one occasion(his first book also helped with him reaching stardom) and not to mention Mick is witty and funny. I can see right now all the die hard ROH Marks going ballistic on the message boards. The Youtube nerds i.e. Truthslayer, Moral Virus will be posting videos in no time. I'm glad someone who has been in the business has finally set the record straight about Joe.

 

[dzonewrestle1]

You're missing the point. Joe should have creative control, being that he is at the top of the card. Nash walked out on a show, and is getting pushed. Do you think Jarrett would shut Joe down for saying he's being booked wrong. I'm pretty sure that Russo has more to do with the scripting than Jarrett. Jarrett may very well give the big ideas, but men like Russo and Disco shape the character.

In WCW 2000, there was a reason that the stupid angles didn't center around Sting and Nash....they said no, and Joe should be doing the same.

Russo once said Nash never refused to do stuff while he booked WCW. Sting shot down the Vampiro angle in 2000 after it failed to get over Vampiro at all. My point about WCW 2000 is that Russo was so horrible, that all those big names' values to the bottom line became nothing cuz they were booked so bad. Goldberg comin back in June 2000 should have made tons of money, but the booking was so bad, it didn't. WWE took Goldberg and made money with him, made money with Nash and Hogan too.

Sure Joe can tell Russo or Jeff that he's been booked sh*tty, but I'm sure they wouldn't listen or care. I just don't like how Madden puts the blame on Samoa Joe, when he's only doing his job and the world can see that the booking in TNA isn't productive when it comes to presenting Joe as a credible champion who is happy to be champion, and defends it proudly. No he's booked as Nash's b*tch and a complainer, thats why Joe's value in TNA might have gone down in recent months, not because Joe as a performer is undeserving....in my opinion.

 

[DaeRave]

...lol



two points...

While I'm not exactly the worlds biggest fan of the current direction Joe is in, I have to raise the thought that despite being a big star in the company, he probably doesnt have the pull backstage that people thinks he does.

Does anyone really think he has the pull that Kevin Nash, Booker T, Kurt Angle and Sting do? 3 and 1/2* of those are heels right now, Joes opponents. The belts on him, I dont believe nessecarily because the backstage wants him to have it, but rather because the fans do.
In my experience, wrestling promotors have a terrible capacity for listening to the fans.
Easy money says Jarret and the gang have the belt on Joe because they feel pressured to, but inwardly and behind those ominous closed doors of backstage politics, would rather guys like those 4 get the love.
Thats why they go out there and look better, week after week. Thats why a guy like Kevin Nash, who can barely walk let alone wrestle through a match, gets to bitch-slap the champ. Because he's Kevin Nash.

Whether or not Joe is doing enough to elevate his character I cant say, Madden and a lot of you guys are apparently close confidants and insiders of Joe and TNA, and you know the intimate inner workings better then the rest of us, fair enough.
All I can do is speculate off what minute information I'm given from apparently trusted sources on these sites, and I'm so far working on the hunch that Joe is a young guy in a business run by old guys, and he's doing what he can.

But what do I know? I havent been watching professional wrestling my entire life. I dont recall much of anything from the old WCW days. I only ever saw an episode or two, most of what I know is from rereleased WWE DVD's like the Monday Night Wars or that NWO one.

...lol

My second thought is something thats been nagging me for awhile, and Madden reminded me of it.
What in the hell is the difference between the average fan, and an internet fan?
His definition of an average fan confuses me. I'm on the internet a lot, I work for a large website, and I read Wrestlezones updates at least once every few days. While I dont read this forum a whole lot, mostly because theres only so much WWE *****io I can stand reading, I think by the above mentioned facts I would be considered an internet fan.
However I watch Impact! every week without fail. I pay for the PPV's every month that I can (and if I cant dedicate the time or money is short, i might observe said PPV through less legal means, but I will neither confirm nor deny that this is actually true... lol). If a TNA house show actually came to Vancouver, i would be there in a heart beat. In fact I'm kicking myself because theyre going to Toronto shortly, and I just moved out of the area.

C'est la vie.


So what am I, an internet fan, or an average fan?

Or is the distinction, in this day and age where nearly everyone, most especially the guy who's article we're takling about, has the internet at home, or access to it, fairly moot by this point?


Finally, I keep hearing the Jericho/Michaels story is pretty deadly. I remember loving a match of theirs years ago at a Wrestlemania.
I wish WWE hadnt burned so many bridges with me, I'd love to check it out.




* - Nash being the 1/2. Good guy? Bad guy? Concerned parental figure thats become frustrated, or former NWO crook that is just waiting for the moment to screw Joe over. I have no idea, but the character development between these two is fun. I was convinced Kevin would have set Joe up for the fall by now. With this whole Sting storyline, I'm even more enticed. Wheres Nash gonna go in this growing war between the old guard and the new blood?

 

[Shocky]

Here’s how one wrestling insider described Joe: “He looks like a slob, dresses like a bum, can’t cut a promo and has no charisma.” Try to argue with that. Maybe Joe was just a niche performer all along, a guy who made major impact with ROH, a little-engine-that-could promotion, then failed miserably with a bigger company despite being indefinitely rammed down the fans’ throats as a top guy. Joe’s a latter-day Sandman, only he has a weight problem instead of an alcohol addiction.

Joe’s weight IS a problem. Wrestling fans rarely take the obese seriously, except those heavy enough to fall into the freak-show category. Every time I see Joe on TV, his girth and ill-advised fashion sense make me think one thing: “Fat guy in a little coat…”

If Joe ever goes to WWE, he’ll be used as a garden-variety lard-assed Samoan and limited to the middle of the card. When TNA began pushing Joe, WWE’s answer was the laughably stereotypical Umaga , and guess what? Umaga meant more, did more and drew more than Joe.

Man, those two quotes are as solid as it gets when it comes to Samoa Joe. Seriously, Joe is niche programming at it's finest. The guy can't cut a promo, and he's terrible to look at. The first quote is pretty much dead on on what I think about the guy.

As for the second quote, dead on too. Samoa Joe was made, the WWE made Umaga and made someone that was better then Average Joe.

As far as Joe having creative control, um no. No wrestler should have creative control, regardless if the veterans do or not, Joe doesn't deserve it. He hasn't paid his dues and he simply isn't a name like the others that have creative control. TNA put the belt on Joe, and he has managed to do absolutely nothing with it.

 

[gg inferno]

You're missing the point. Joe should have creative control, being that he is at the top of the card. Nash walked out on a show, and is getting pushed. Do you think Jarrett would shut Joe down for saying he's being booked wrong. I'm pretty sure that Russo has more to do with the scripting than Jarrett. Jarrett may very well give the big ideas, but men like Russo and Disco shape the character.

In WCW 2000, there was a reason that the stupid angles didn't center around Sting and Nash....they said no, and Joe should be doing the same.

i have ZERO input into booking the storylines. the shows are booked and written when i get to the tapings.

 

[FromTheSouth]

WHether or not Joe has any stroke backstage, it's still his job to get himself over. He got over chasing the title, as a badass. As champ, his run is less than inspiring. Edge played the whiny opportunist, and his title reigns are awesome. MVP, at times, has been whiny, and he is about as over as heel as it gets.

The difference is that Joe is boring when he talks. When he didn't talk and just destroyed people, he was so much better. When he talks he pauses at the wrong time and the tone isn't believable.

He actually sounds like he's reading the lines. If he would deviate just a bit, and try to sound natural, maybe it would work, but the way it is now, Joe sounds like a supporting actor in a high school production of Midsummer Night's Dream.

i have ZERO input into booking the storylines. the shows are booked and written when i get to the tapings.

1. I was just trying to give you the rub. lol My statement was more meant to apply to Russo.

2. What do you do? Road agent?

 

[Slyfox696]

Mark Madden is wrong in my opinion.

Unfortunately for you, your opinion is wrong.

Joe is doing his job when he follows TNA's scripts.

And so is everyone else. It's just that the other guys actually make theirs some what interesting.

And it doesn't take a high IQ to know that Vince Russo is most likely behind Joe being booked as a constant whiner and complainer b*tch.

Considering it's been said time and again by EVERYONE associated with TNA that Russo doesn't book, I'd say you ought to re-think your statement. Especially the point about the IQ.

In 05, 06, when Russo wasn't there, Joe was a basic badass, didn't speak much, and had great matches all the time. He was super over.

He was a badass, but just how long can you do that? I mean, Joe buried the entire X-Division and left it for dead, moved up to the heavyweight division, and proved he couldn't cut it. Great matches all the time? More like great matches when he had someone like AJ Styles there to make him look good. Super over? Yeah, so over that TNA didn't trust him with the title.

At the 06 Bound for Glory, fans wanted to see Jarrett vs. Joe with Joe finally going over, but instead Joe was placed in a meaningless 4-way no dq match with Abyss, Spike and Raven. Potential hit #1 right there.

While I agree the booking then was stupid, fans were MUCH more interested in seeing Sting get his hands on Jeff Jarrett. That was the whole point of Sting's run in 2006.

In my opinion wrestling is a 50/50 wrestler/booker deal, and if the booker is incompetent, then the wrestler's potential to draw is weakened.

And yet, this same booking staff has made interesting characters in AJ, Booker, Lethal, Dutt, Kaz, MCMG, Roode and Storm, etc.

Maybe it's not the bookers, maybe it's just Joe.

In TNA, Joe is booked to whine and scream every 5 seconds.

Maybe because he's not good enough to do anything else?

Mark Madden is dead wrong, Joe deserves his success.

This may be true, but the lack of success is what Madden is talking about.

Joe is simply doing his job.

And so is AJ Styles. And AJ has been INFINITELY more entertaining over the last few years.

This line right here is THE money line, and it should end any arguments...

But sooner or later, your character has to grow. If Joe couldn’t handle it now, there’s no guarantee he could handle it later.

The fact of the matter is Joe simply couldn't handle it.

1) Start booking him as someone that just can't lose. Have him blow through the competition, not talk much, and simply be like a fat Goldberg. Then, before the fans get tired of it, have a younger guy that you want to push to the main event (someone like Roode would work) defeat him, getting a massive rub by being the one guy who can defeat the unstoppable big guy.

They already booked him as someone who couldn't lose.

2) Give the title to Sting, and then have him lose it to AJ Styles when their program is over, effectively replacing Joe with Styles, who has more charisma and could really run with the title.

I would much rather see that. I'm just not sure if AJ has the size to be the torch bearer.

 

[klunderbunker]

Joe to me is a perfect example of what could have been. I've always thought that it could have been interesting if he had been booked like Taz was in ECW: The unstoppable badass that took the world title and dominated with it for awhile. He was almost booked that way and for some reason, TNA pulled the plug. Maybe it was that he wasn't ready or couldn't handle it, or maybe the crowd didn't react well to him in the title hunt, I honestly don't remember. If my memory is right, Joe pinned Jarrett clean at No Surrender, then was in the Monster's Ball match at BFG. I get that Sting and Jarrett was supposed to be the big main event, but from what I do remember, Joe was insanely over. It never made sense to me that Joe didn't get pushed to at least a title match at that point. That to me was the high point of Joe's career. Now flash forward almost two years, and Joe finally gets the belt. Who in the hell cares now? This to me is 1/2 of why Joe is where he is now. TNA didn't strike when he was the hottest thing in the company. Now don't get me wrong. Right now, Joe is in no way free from blame. He's gotten lazy. He was the top guy in TNA so long that everyone has caught him. He needs to step it up soon, which is going to require him working hard as TNA messed up on him fairly well in my eyes.

 

[Audioslave]

As.. uninterested.. as I have become in anything relating to Samoa Joe. I have to say that if TNA is giving him this material and it's falling flat, it's not necessarily Joe's fault. If he's being booked/written like a lame ass whiny bitch, then they shoulder most of the blame. Some is his fault, but it's more on how he's booked. Joe was at one point a bad ass type and people got behind him thanks to that.. but then they took that away from him and turned him into a whiny bitch.

Even heels in the WWE are able to maintain their heat and aren't booked like fucking whiny morons. When Orton loses, does he complain? Yeah. But they always have him looking like he wants a fight if he doesn't get what he wants. Edge? Same type of thing, just a bit more violent in his reaction. It's because the booking keeps them strong and they're talented enough to make it work out for them. Look at Jericho and Michael's feud. Jericho's beaten Michaels in this feud a few time, even decimated him, he's kept strong but Michaels keeps coming back. Both of them are all the more over as a result of good booking (which apparently is a collaboration between Michaels and Jericho).

Pretty much all of TNA's "stars" look like jokes. Angle was their biggest acquisition of their entire tenure, but he now he's some lame ass sideshow joke. Almost anyone that is at the top in WWE can come into TNA and be turned into just another guy on the roster.

I really hope Foley has his bearings on straight and doesn't get devalued by TNA, like pretty much anyone else that comes aboard.

 

[AnthonyMango/NoFate007]

He actually sounds like he's reading the lines. If he would deviate just a bit, and try to sound natural, maybe it would work, but the way it is now, Joe sounds like a supporting actor in a high school production of Midsummer Night's Dream.

Lol you hit the nail on the head. I was the top actor for the plays in my school and the two years after I graduated, I went back and was the assistant director. The second year, we did A Midsummer Night's Dream...and man....so many of those kids couldn't get off-book. Shakespeare is a pretty tough thing for kids to tackle, and most of them don't bother doing their own research to find out what the words mean so they can understand them and say them with some sort of inflection.

At times, it seems like Joe (and others, don't get me wrong, he's not the only one that does it) doesn't really know what he's saying, and then he emphasizes the wrong words, speeds up at the weirdest times, or just goes completely monotone (or even worse, the type of monotone where you can see that the poor guy's trying to come off as having emotion, but he's really just popping his words and squinting his face at times lol).

I haven't sat through all of Joe's promos...so I can't say he always does it...but every time I've listened to him try to cut a few lines, he seems to struggle and it just reminds me of how a rookie would probably tackle it...not a world champion.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Resident Joe defender is here. Unluckily, I completely cannot be bothered today. Instead of replying to anyone's post in particular, I'll go off in my direction. The result is unlikely to make sense.

Joe is niche? I agree, completely. However, is he so niche that he can't fit in with the niche entertainment form that is professional wrestling and the even nicher (?) form of that which is TNA? Possibly.

Comparing Joe to guys like Jericho, Michaels and Cena is actually quite unfair. I had a reason why but it slipped my mind completely. I'll come up with something weaker in its place. He won't ever be as good as them? Yeah, that works.

Does Joe even fucking wear a coat? He just wears shirts and jeans, doesn't he? Wacky fucker. Someone ought to knock some sense into him and tell him to stop clowning around.

Do hypothetical questions kick ass? Unquestionably.

Something about fat people being unable to get over. I forget the quote. I agree, unless they put a shirt on. Y'know, cover themselves up somehow. Big Show was a fat fuck for quite a while. I also wouldn't describe Joe as obese. Technically, it may be correct. It makes him sound more like Big Daddy V than the chunky guy he actually is.

Character growth had to happen? No. He was fine as he was. He was lucky to get away with just Kevin Nash as a babysitter. Actually, no, unlucky. He should've got one of those superhero gimmicks they've all got these days. The outfits he wears though; HE MAY AS WELL BE A SUPERHERO!

With his jeans and t-shirt...

 

[kenchoe]

I'm glad the rest of the wrestling community has caught up with what I've felt about Sloppy Joe all along.

I've endured getting blasted for speaking against Joe from smarks and casual fans for years now.

1) He's out of shape. No one wants to look at a fat ass. Period. Sex sells, fat doesn't.

2) His WWE-reject promos are irritating at best. He would fit in great in the WWE...if HEAT was still around.

3) If he's not dominating (again, not believeable) in the ring, he's over-selling. Perhaps he's been watching too many Lex Luger matches.


So, the real question remains...when is TNA going to pull the plug on the Great Experiment Gone Wrong that is Sloppy Joe?

 

[Uncle Sam]

I'm glad the rest of the wrestling community has caught up with what I've felt about Sloppy Joe all along.

I'm gonna call you Ugly Kenchoe. Feel good, does it? What did Joe ever do to you?

I've endured getting blasted for speaking against Joe from smarks and casual fans for years now.

No one likes indistinct labels. At least I don't.

1) He's out of shape. No one wants to look at a fat ass. Period. Sex sells, fat doesn't.

You just admitted you find Triple H sexy.

2) His WWE-reject promos are irritating at best. He would fit in great in the WWE...if HEAT was still around.

You can call his promos uninspired or boring, yet I fail to see how you categorise them as "WWE reject". Everyone knows that big fat men aren't supposed to talk and making Kevin Nash talk for them is even worse. At least I hope so.

3) If he's not dominating (again, not believeable) in the ring, he's over-selling. Perhaps he's been watching too many Lex Luger matches.

Possible. I can say I haven't honestly noticed.

So, the real question remains...when is TNA going to pull the plug on the Great Experiment Gone Wrong that is Sloppy Joe?

Bound For Glory? Then we get Kevin Nash. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[kenchoe]

Wow dood, did I touch a nerve? I didn't know that you were a smark for Sloppy Joe.

Anyways, he is a public figure on television, and an "athlete" (I use that term loosely). He should be in better shape, not for the sake of physical appearance (I know, I know, looks are subjective), but just for his overall health.

Trips and Co. are in great shape, and the muscle-bound larger-than-life wrestlers in the heyday of the 80's have shaped the ideal image of what they should look like to the average fan.

Granted, as we transition into the post-steriod era of pro wrestling, you're not going to see what we grew up (I'm 31) with, but, it wouldn't kill SJ to hit the treadmill, or bust out with a few crunches here and there.


Bottom line...the TNA bookers gave Joe the ball. He dropped it. Now his long-term options are WWE (lower mid-card), or Japan (he might actually get over well there, if he adopts a more stong-style arsenal).

 

[wolvdog316]

I blame TNA a lot for Joe's fuckups. And I blame Joe too of course. But ya gotta remember, at one time, Joe was "IT". He was hotter than a skillet full of grease. People loved him, people saw him as the next "badass" that could dominate TNA.

So what does TNA do. Does TNA do what WWE did with Austin and book him in GREAT angles, have him compete against the VERY best and win, have him defy odds over and over? Have him do remarkable shit like the Beer truck, the stunners, the Zambodie (spelling I dont watch hockey ). Answer is no

Did TNA do what WCW did? Goldberg runs through everybody, then sets up the MEGA Match up the last 5 years with Hogan, damn near sell out a DOME for a Nitro. Thats crazy. Did they attempt to make him unstoppable in several title classes? Nope

Joe, and Im no Joe mark or even TNA mark, but Joe was their baby. He was THEIR Austin, Goldberg. And what did TNA do?

They have a WWE guy, Angle, come in and Headbutt and pretty much punk out THEIR tough guy.

Game over. BLAM. One move just KILLED your character. All the months, all the matches, all the glory, BAM GONE. Your Submissive Machine just got fucking punked out by a WWE guy. And whats worse? Is YOU LET THE WWE GUY WIN. LMAO. And people wonder why TNA is fucked up.

Could you EVER imagine Sting going to WWE in 98 and bitch slapping Austin? LOL And then BEAT HIM? lol Vince wouldn't have done that. Could you imagine Austin going to WCW and bitch slapping Goldberg, and then beating him? Never would have happened.

TNA doesn't have a huge following. If a general watcher sees Joe sometimes, hears about him from time to time from friends, then turns on and see's a WWE guy just destroy him, its done.

What should have happened, is Angle walking around thinking he's tough shit. Joe smashes him up, PPV, Joe beats him. Bad. Then the angle is Kurt wants his revenge, he wants to beat Joe. But he can't. That angle could have lasted months with Kurt TRYING to find ways to beat the Killing Machine Joe.

But it didn't and that moment when Joe got headbutted and made to look like a fucking girl, his fan base died.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Wow dood,

Dude.

did I touch a nerve?

No. Did I?

I didn't know that you were a smark for Sloppy Joe.

Actually, I'm just a casual fan. Thanks for assuming I'm smart though.

Anyways, he is a public figure on television, and an "athlete" (I use that term loosely).

Dictionary.com says:

a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill.

I will accept your use of that term loosely. Was touch and go for a second.

He should be in better shape, not for the sake of physical appearance (I know, I know, looks are subjective), but just for his overall health.

Eh, his health is none of the fans concern. I think the guys metabolism has just slowed to fuck.

Trips and Co. are in great shape, and the muscle-bound larger-than-life wrestlers in the heyday of the 80's have shaped the ideal image of what they should look like to the average fan.

Granted, as we transition into the post-steriod era of pro wrestling, you're not going to see what we grew up (I'm 31) with, but, it wouldn't kill SJ to hit the treadmill, or bust out with a few crunches here and there.


Bottom line...the TNA bookers gave Joe the ball. He dropped it. Now his long-term options are WWE (lower mid-card), or Japan (he might actually get over well there, if he adopts a more stong-style arsenal).

This, I got pretty much no problem with. As for Joe heading to WWE, he's still the champion. The ratings have barely budged. The crowd still goes nuts; as they always do. As far as management are concerned, I don't think they'll see Joe's title reign as much of a problem.

 

[C4Mahdee]

So I started reading this thread with the intention of being on Joe's side. Then about half-way through page two, I realized that the nay-sayers are right...well helf-right...okay maybe a little more than half right. Joe was a monster for almost three years straight, dominating the X-Division and being in my case one of the main reasons I started watching TNA again (the others being Aj and Christopher Daniels before he was full time Curry Man). The only TNA shirt I own is a Samoa Joe shirt. Then as I was reading the thread I realized also that I haven't wore my Joe shirt in a while. It was then that it dawned on me that it's because I too am concerned and a little less than thrilled with his current satus. But I digress less I get off track a bit. Joe's character has changed drastically and not for the good. He does whine a lot, he can't seem to do anything but whine when a mic is put in his face (unless he's guest commentating then he channels some strange inner Solie/Foley and kinda pulls it off). My point being is that everything I've read here including Madden's article has some truth into it. It can be interpereted a few ways depending on what your attitude towards Joe is or was and what you feel about the state of TNA as a whole, I personally think they know what they want to do, but can't seem to get there. One of the main points is Joe is not and will never be as big as TNA has made him think he is. I like Joe, Joe's my ninja, but until he and TNA can find a happy medium for his character, I don't think I'll be wearing my "Joe Knows Pain" shirt until the pain is gone from my head.

 

[Disco Sucks]

Gee, one column can turn Samoa Joe fans against Samoa Joe? That's not very loyal. Granted Joe hasn't been booked well at all (thank you Jarrett and Russo) but we all know what potential Joe has if booked correctly. We all know he has the ability to cut some of the best promos in the business and work the best matches as well. Just because the writing team for TNA has no inkling of an idea of how to properly put over their faces doesn't mean I should like Joe any less. Quite frankly if Joe went to the WWE, he would have gotten lost in the mix, or he would have been Umaga. In TNA he gets the respect he deserves from most of the fans. I would 100% believe that he doesn't have as much pull as people think. He said it in ROH himself a year or so back "I tripped over some bad booking" - I think he is fully aware of what is going on, and either he is with the rest of the talent like Nash, Cage and sometimes Angle that complain about the direction of the product overall and it's booking, or he knows something we don't and he's going to come off looking really good soon enough.

 

[arsens09]

Samoa Joe is a great talent, and with better booking, he will be just fine.

Simple as that.

Knocking the man's clothing choice and mannerisms is pretty weak, and childish.

In case you havent noticed, the majority of Samoan wrestlers have the body type that Joe has, and calling him obese is simply inaccurate and ignorant.

Joe doesn't have the prototypical physique of a WWE top tier superstar, but he has what many don't have, the ability to entertain in the ring and when booked correctly, he can carry anyone to a good match and feud.

 

[Darkshot77]

While it is impropper to insult a man due to his samoan body type, a point is made. Who was the last samoan world Champion....The Rock. He has that atypicle body type, he is buitl more like a black man than a samoan. Samoans, while athletic don't have a championship look. I'm not being racist im stating fact. Umaga, Rosie, mid-carders always. The truth is when joe finally went over Angle, like was said before, it was too little too late. The opertunity was missed and thats the end of that. Who is to blame...I cant tell. But the fact is there is a problem and it needs fixed