klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Not to mention no baggage with Griffey. There's no "Jr. being Jr." bullshit to deal with.
Manny Ramirez, we hardly knew ye...
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klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
How many you pass doesn't matter. You fail one and you might as well have failed 100.
Cowboyfromhell
2 Time Co-Beach Volleyball Champion
I always liked Manny but i'd take Griffey for a decade over Manny any day.
And while Manny may have passed a 100 tests it doesn't mean he wasn't taking illegal substances. Maybe the testers finally caught up to whatever substance he ws using. That's the shitty thing about it, you get caught once and people will doubt everything you have ever done.
Check out Book of Shadows, the one about Bonds. Other than being about Bonds it goes into detail about how athletes can get away with cheating and how the testers try to keep up with all the new chemicals developed to cheat.
And while Manny may have passed a 100 tests it doesn't mean he wasn't taking illegal substances. Maybe the testers finally caught up to whatever substance he ws using. That's the shitty thing about it, you get caught once and people will doubt everything you have ever done.
Check out Book of Shadows, the one about Bonds. Other than being about Bonds it goes into detail about how athletes can get away with cheating and how the testers try to keep up with all the new chemicals developed to cheat.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
It really wouldn't be that hard. If he was cycling, all he would have to do is start just after a test, do a cycle, then wait for the next test.
Cowboyfromhell
2 Time Co-Beach Volleyball Champion
It's not hard to do it and not get caught. Chemists develop the performance enhancing drugs so they don't test positive when they get tested. Then eventually the people that develop the tests catch on to these new performance enhancing drugs and are then able to test for them as well. But by then the chemists have developed another drug that doesn't test positive. It's a game of cat and mouse. It's not as simple as testing for the same drugs that they took in the seventies and 80's.
Again, just piping in with knowledge of chemistry, not baseball. The drugs that people take today are very sophisticated, and it is often a case of catch up for the authorities. Take THG, they only found out how to test that after the world championships, and when they tested back, they found that it was in a lot of samples. Marion Jones passed a shit load of drugs tests in her career, look what happened there.
In my opinion, he was on drugs, stopped, started taking the fertillity drug to get the testosterone cycle going, and that less sophisticated drug is what he was busted with.
In my opinion, he was on drugs, stopped, started taking the fertillity drug to get the testosterone cycle going, and that less sophisticated drug is what he was busted with.
TwistofRKO
The Legend Killer himself
I believe Manny is one of the best pure hitters of all time, and sustained it longer than Griffey. That being said Griffey in his prime was a better all-around player, but career wise it goes to Manny.
Bonds was a fantastic player pre-steroid, but he didn't rival Griffey's natural ability.
First 11 healthy (full) seasons, we'll define it as 400+ at bats, I'm choosing 11 because that's when Griffey's body fell apart and Bonds stuck needles in his butt.
Griffey: 7 40+ HR seasons, 5 120+ RBI seasons.
Bonds: 3 40+ HR seasons, 2 120+ RBI seasons.
Bonds was the better base stealer, Griffey wasn't bad. Griffey was a far superior fielder, although Bonds wasn't bad.
I'm not seeing where Bonds is "every bit as good" as Griffey was.
Bonds was a fantastic player pre-steroid, but he didn't rival Griffey's natural ability.
First 11 healthy (full) seasons, we'll define it as 400+ at bats, I'm choosing 11 because that's when Griffey's body fell apart and Bonds stuck needles in his butt.
Griffey: 7 40+ HR seasons, 5 120+ RBI seasons.
Bonds: 3 40+ HR seasons, 2 120+ RBI seasons.
Bonds was the better base stealer, Griffey wasn't bad. Griffey was a far superior fielder, although Bonds wasn't bad.
I'm not seeing where Bonds is "every bit as good" as Griffey was.
I pretty much debunked the Griffey Steroid bullshit with him playing in the Kingdome on concrete for the first ten years of his career and going balls deep every night. The Kid was relatviely injury free while in Seattle, and it simply caught up to him.
Griffey didn't have other guys in the lineup like Manny had in Boston, and Griffey somehow managed to make the all century team, and have ten gold gloves in the AL.
Griffey didn't have other guys in the lineup like Manny had in Boston, and Griffey somehow managed to make the all century team, and have ten gold gloves in the AL.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
3,000 hits, 500 doubles and five hundred steals. There's not a long line on that list, in fact, there is one, and the second would be Barry Bonds, but he still needs some hits. Retired as the active career leader in doubles, hits, and HBP. He holds the national league record for lead off home runs.
I don't think he was the best player of his era, but top five position players for sure, with Griffey, Bonds, Manny, and A-Rod. Funny thing is, three of those guys have steroid questions surrounding them, and Griffey's body feel apart like most steroid users' bodies do.
If all these guys cheated, and Biggio didn't, wouldn't that put him in the conversation?
Certainly, Biggio is one of the most under rated players out there. The guy was damn good and consistant for many years. He just doesn't have all of the flash surrounding him to put him into that "elite" star status. Statistically, sure fire Hall of Famer.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
Griffey had Edgar Martinez, Tino Martinez, Jay Buhner, Harold Reynolds, etc.
Manny had one good year of Albert Belle, Jim Thome, Kenny Loftin, David Ortiz, and a bunch of role players. Manny made his teams better than Griffey did.
And the gold glove isn't always given to the best defensive player at the position, Adam Everett went an entire season at shortstop with three errors, and the award went to Jose Reyes, who had 10-12 errors, but happened to hit well and play in New York.
TwistofRKO
The Legend Killer himself
I'm not arguing Biggio's worth, but he had a relatively low average and on-base percentage. I don't really think sabermetrics tells the true story so I won't go there. Minus 4-5 seasons he was average in the field. I'd definintely vote for him for the hall of fame. If we're including steroids users Biggio isn't top 5, really.
Griffey's body was destroyed because it was never preserved. Steroids enhance your career longetivity. Your arguement for gold gloves holds semi-true, but there was no questioning Griffey in the outfield. Simply amazing.
1. Arod
2. Bonds
3. Griffey- Steroids would have preserved his body
4. Manny
5. Piazza
6. Pudge
7. Chipper
8. Sosa
9. McGwire
10. Frank Thomas
Biggio was a very good, solid, contributing player. These guys carried their teams. I'm not sure Biggio was a higher instrument to the Astros success as was Bagwell, who put up very impressive numbers in a very pitcher's friendly park. Biggio's doubles definitely were aided by that, Bagwell's HRs were not.
Griffey's body was destroyed because it was never preserved. Steroids enhance your career longetivity. Your arguement for gold gloves holds semi-true, but there was no questioning Griffey in the outfield. Simply amazing.
1. Arod
2. Bonds
3. Griffey- Steroids would have preserved his body
4. Manny
5. Piazza
6. Pudge
7. Chipper
8. Sosa
9. McGwire
10. Frank Thomas
Biggio was a very good, solid, contributing player. These guys carried their teams. I'm not sure Biggio was a higher instrument to the Astros success as was Bagwell, who put up very impressive numbers in a very pitcher's friendly park. Biggio's doubles definitely were aided by that, Bagwell's HRs were not.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
These are fine. I would argue that the extra muscke mass of steroids puts extra stress on joints and tendons, which were the areas that Griffey had trouble with. But you're a Griffey fan, so he's perfect.
Overrated and an absolute disaster behind the plate.
Umm, steroids again, at least he was on that Rangers team, but he was probably the one guy in the line up who wasn't juicing. He had good years offensively and bad ones. Biggio was consistent. I reward consistency more than flashes of brilliance.
Chipper doesn't belong on this list. He is not clutch. If you need a big hit, pinch hit for Chipper Jones.
Sosa was shit before and after his steroid years. He had five good years, and struck out too much.
All he did was hit home runs. He hit .300 two or three times, and that's all. He struck out a lot, didn't walk, couldn't play defense. He was a more marketable Adam Dunn.
Ehh, OK. I was never a big fan, but he had a few good years.
Over half od Bagwell's career RBI's were Biggio. Bagwell drove Biggio in more times than any combination in history. Believe me though, if you watched the teams, you would say Biggio was the better player of the two. Bagwell would tell you that too.
This proves to me that you don't know much about baseball. Bagwell played his first nine years in the Astrodome. That place was a cavern that had air conditioners blow the ball back in. His MVP season, in 1994, was at the Astrodome. He played seven seasons at Minute Maid, but in the last two and a half, his shoulder kept him from being the player he was. If he had played his whole career at Minute Made, he would be in the top 10 all time in homeruns.
Biggio's doubles and triples numbers were enhanced by the Astrodome. Once they got into Minute Made, Biggio, having the brilliant baseball mind that he does, guided homers over the left field wall. That park kept his doubled down, because smashing a ball into the left field wall resulted into singles, whereas that ball is a double of triple in the dome.
TwistofRKO
The Legend Killer himself
I had problems quoting it for some reason (?) I'll post it in an easy-to-quote format.
Your body would wear down years after the false muscle mass wore down. That's why many injury prone players are healthy while on them. I never said the man was perfect, he was actually an idiot. Why not lift, stretch, and do all you can do to preserve your career?
Piazza was terrible behind the plate yet amazing while standing up next to it. He was twice the hitter Biggio was.
He's the best fielding catcher of this generation, and arguably of all time. He had no bad seasons offensively during his prime.
Chipper Jones has been the Braves leader, the best switch hitter of this generation, one of the most consistent, a far better overall hitter than Biggio, and unlike Biggio, has a World Series ring.
Sammy Sosa is obviously on our steroids list, but look at 1993-2004, he put up massive production. When did his assumed steroid stages begin? He didn't suck before 1997/98.
And McGwire was better than everyone else at doing that. His career average was only .18pts lower than Biggio's and had his OBP was .61 pts higher. He was better than Biggio.
Frank Thomas had a few GREAT years.
I thought I had included Jeter, I guess I bypassed him. He's better than Biggio as well.
Perhaps Bagwell could have driven in even more runs had Biggio been more solid getting on base.
What are you talking about? That proves my point. He had great success playing in a huge stadium throughout his prime. I'm not sure if there was a counter point in there.
Your body would wear down years after the false muscle mass wore down. That's why many injury prone players are healthy while on them. I never said the man was perfect, he was actually an idiot. Why not lift, stretch, and do all you can do to preserve your career?
Piazza was terrible behind the plate yet amazing while standing up next to it. He was twice the hitter Biggio was.
He's the best fielding catcher of this generation, and arguably of all time. He had no bad seasons offensively during his prime.
Chipper Jones has been the Braves leader, the best switch hitter of this generation, one of the most consistent, a far better overall hitter than Biggio, and unlike Biggio, has a World Series ring.
Sammy Sosa is obviously on our steroids list, but look at 1993-2004, he put up massive production. When did his assumed steroid stages begin? He didn't suck before 1997/98.
And McGwire was better than everyone else at doing that. His career average was only .18pts lower than Biggio's and had his OBP was .61 pts higher. He was better than Biggio.
Frank Thomas had a few GREAT years.
I thought I had included Jeter, I guess I bypassed him. He's better than Biggio as well.
Perhaps Bagwell could have driven in even more runs had Biggio been more solid getting on base.
What are you talking about? That proves my point. He had great success playing in a huge stadium throughout his prime. I'm not sure if there was a counter point in there.
Cowboyfromhell
2 Time Co-Beach Volleyball Champion
Biggio started numerous seasons at catcher, then moved to 2b, then the of. He played all three extremely well, maybe not stellar, but extremely well. You gotta factor that in with his offensive numbers.
TwistofRKO
The Legend Killer himself
He was an average glove in the field. Made some nice plays, wasn't a deterrent, but he wasn't anything out of the ordinary in the field.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
I just think that Grffey isn't as clean as we all think. Like I said, all the injuries that he had are common in steroid users. They are common in all athletes, but moreso in steroids users.
Piazza hit more homeruns, yes, but Biggio had more hits, doubles, triples, walks, a higher batting average, OBP, and most importantly, won more games. If you compare Biggio's homeruns to the average leadoff man and Piazza's to the average clean up hitter, you would also note that Biggio has a higher value over replacement player.
OK, after doing some research, I will grant you that Pudge had a batter career than I thought, but I would still take Biggio over Pudge. It is tough to give any baseball reasons, like "you build up the middle" but Biggio was a guy who could play any position on the field and hit anywhere in the lineup.
The leader on all of those teams was Smoltz
Lance Berkman might argue with that.
Well, Biggio didn't get to a world series until he had three pitchers the likes of which Chipper had his whole career. He had the advantage of playing in a weak division that assured them the playoffs every year. I'll grant you Chipper though, unless I need a hit.
There is more to the game than HR's and RBI's. You can build the Yankees all you want, but I'll build the Cardinals. I will build a team full of high on base tough guys instead of preening primdonnas.
McGwire is an interesting case. His numbers all consistent throughout his career. My problem is that he couldn't move, clogged the basepaths, and had no versatility in the field. Plus, he got nowhere close to 3,000 hits. Of course, iggio's 250 HR's as a catcher and second basemen don't come close to McGwires, but again, I would venture that Biggio's value over replacement player would be higher here too.
Jeter gets the benefit of playing in New York. HE has a weak arm, jumps and turns to get on TV, will be remembered as a great defender for two plays, and no one will remember that he sucks at turning the double play. He has had the benefit of playing in a little league park his whole career, and still has far less homeruns than Biggio did at this point of his career. Jeter drove in his first career game winning run, this year. He has protection in the lineup the likes of Gary Sheffield, A-Rod, Paul O'Neil, etc. Biggio has had, batting in the two hole behind him, Shawn Berry, Derek Bell, and a bunch of guys that I can't remember.
You might want to kill yourself when you reread this argument.
Biggio's numbers were hurt by the alignment of Minute Maid. They built that yard for Bags, and it took Biggio time to adjust and find where to put the ball to get the extra bases. And by the way, if you watch Biggio, he had a skill for putting the ball in play in between guys like only Ichiro can do.