"Major Breaking News"

I think people are missing the big picture here, Hogan and Bischoff comes in and with help from guys like Russo try to compete with WWE right off the bat, horrible idea and they knew it. Going live smart idea, going on the road smart idea, but bad idea. So now Hogan, Bischoff, Pritchard are all gone, and they have big John there running things, so really think about this, How bad is it?

I honestly think they needed something outside the box, and if HOH invasion is it awesome, you have them going one step further by having AJ defend the TNA title in Japan and Mexico even though he said he was leaving with the belt, without a contract and that if perfect because it did what WWE wouldn't with Punk and that was take the storyline one step further. I think this is what TNA needs to do, they have already established themselves as their own entity, but I think they are slowly going to go back to what Hogan changed, back to TNAs originality and I think in the end whether someone buys TNA or whatever this will end up being "best for business"
 
Sounds like a case of Bad Marketing, or using something that had a decent effect, then re-using it till it is dead. They are much better not using Twitter to make these announcements.

The big news is somebody with 5,000 twitter followers signed with TNA. That is my guess. Nothing big, nothing special.

They need to make announcements for certain mid-card matches. Build them up during the show. Yea, it is nothing exciting, but it helps get your eye on the Mid-Card.

Some of the best times in wrestling, was when you had a good Mid-Card. Use Twitter to promote that, instead of using it for bad marketing.
 
Well when TNA Says something is big it's not usually as big as they say it is and as big as they hype it up. I mean take a look at some previous examples...
- August 1st Warning
- Pacman Jones
- Debute of EC3 ***It's just him taking on random jobbers***

So I'm not going to get my hopes up. My prediction is that it is going to be about this on going situation with Bully Ray and Tommy Dreamer's match at Old School.

Didn't they announce on TNA one time a major announcement at a PPV, and it turned out that Kurt Angle had joined TNA?

That was when the hype was lived up to, I say.
 
Why does it feel like we get a "Breaking News" from TNA every month?

When I see Breaking News from TNA pop up on my Facebook or Twitter, I dont even bat an eyelid anymore. I dont believe it. It doesnt interest me. I dont even care.

When you use breaking news and constantly promise ground breaking changes or something of that nature and constantly deliver us nobody comebacks and matches that are 15 years past their prime. The fans stop listening. Not everything has to be breaking news. Just post your fucking news.

Didn't they announce on TNA one time a major announcement at a PPV, and it turned out that Kurt Angle had joined TNA?

That was when the hype was lived up to, I say.

You can literally count on one hand how many times this breaking news huge announcement OMFG you better watch this kind of hype has been legit and not a total colossal face palm.

The amount of times they shout breaking news and demand a parade has got to be atleast once a month.
 
Hyperbole in wrestling promotion !!?!!??!?? ZOMG!

Seriously people, you need to get some perspective and realize how minor of an announcement this actually was treated as. I am enjoying semi-retirement, it is nice to not have my life flip turned upside down over one word in a tweet. It did make the Dixie work double awesome as well.
 
This 'breaking news' aside though, if they were to link up with HOH, it would probably be good for both parties.

TNA could get a reputation boost among indie fans, and HOH could use TNA to piggyback and get more mainstream exposure.

Dreamer is putting together some excellent cards with great wrestlers involved, just like Preston City Wrestling in the UK for example, and people are going to watch. HOH has a lot of names who are still in the prime of their careers, and 3-5 years ago, those names would have have cost twice as much to watch live. Dreamer is a smart guy and knows that wrestling fans above all else want to see good wrestling.

TNA used to have this philosophy but recently their product has just become dull IMO. I used to watch every week until I had time issues and cut down my weekly wrestling viewing, but recently I watched a couple of episodes of IMPACT and couldn't even make it through to the main event without being fed up with it.

They have a good roster so that's not the problem. They used to criticise WWE for its matches being too formulaic and not original enough, but they themselves are falling into that trap. Wrestling matches are best when they're unpredictable, and TNA have lost that aspect of it's in-ring action, whereas the storylines are all over the place.

They try to move things along too quickly and end up turning the same guys face-heel-face again in the space of a year.

The 'major announcements' they make are ridiculous too. Now as an MMA fan, there was some value in having King Mo, Rampage and even Tito on Impact, because they are characters, and with training and time could become good pro wrestlers. However there is no way that they were ready for a major storyline, especially when trying to juggle fight preparation with wrestling.

I'd rather get a slightly underwhelming surprise (still a positive) from TNA than for them to hype it up and for it to fall flat on it's face because it doesn't live up to expectations(a big negative).
 
Hyperbole in wrestling promotion !!?!!??!?? ZOMG!

Seriously people, you need to get some perspective and realize how minor of an announcement this actually was treated as. I am enjoying semi-retirement, it is nice to not have my life flip turned upside down over one word in a tweet. It did make the Dixie work double awesome as well.
You probably should have tuned in for the whole discussion, because people have been discussing the degree to which hyperbole is used. It's a dial, not an on/off switch. Lately, the issue is that TNA has been pushing the hyperbole meter up to eleven, for occurrences which rate at about "wet fart". Which is pointing out, very obviously to people, that the absolute best TNA can manage right now is "wet fart".

What people have been discussing is that you save your hyperbole for when there's something worth being hyperbolic about. I understand you've been away for a bit, but the only other person who reflexively defends TNA without paying attention to the discussion these days is Zeven, and he's not too well lately. They've made some fairly indefensible moves.
 
You probably should have tuned in for the whole discussion, because people have been discussing the degree to which hyperbole is used. It's a dial, not an on/off switch. Lately, the issue is that TNA has been pushing the hyperbole meter up to eleven, for occurrences which rate at about "wet fart". Which is pointing out, very obviously to people, that the absolute best TNA can manage right now is "wet fart".

What people have been discussing is that you save your hyperbole for when there's something worth being hyperbolic about. I understand you've been away for a bit, but the only other person who reflexively defends TNA without paying attention to the discussion these days is Zeven, and he's not too well lately. They've made some fairly indefensible moves.

Care to list what is indefensible? Care to cite at least three examples of the lately issue? Or is this one of those 1.5 is 20 scenarios where the IWC expresses all its emotions through hyperbole?

I find it hilarious that including the word major in a tweet counts as "dialing it up to an eleven." Let us review since you seem to believe I don't understand what is going on here. Something was tweeted to less than 300k people that include the word major. 18 minutes later what they had been alluding to was revealed. IWC shits pants. What people fail to realize here is that the hyperbole is created through the follow up hysteria of obsessed individuals, not the message itself. What were you really expecting from a tweet? The issue is in the expectations, which ironically is what people claim TNA has killed off every time this happens.

As an interesting aside, the show in question appears to have sold well. Historically ECW has been a decent draw for TNA. Furthermore, when you target audience is a bunch of negative nellies, is "bad" publicity really the wrong way to go? You have a show that is coming up quick that you want to sell. Should you just put it out there and let people ignore it because it isn't a wrestlemania caliber event, or should you give them something to bitch about so that the message gets out to everyone about what is actually happening? In an IWC of 10 people respectively 7 people bitch about it, 2 people buy something and 1 makes fun of the rest for being in the IWC. In the mainstream no one even knows it happened so all the doomsday scenarios are a crock of shit and if you are being honest you know that is true here. Twitter isn't TV.
 
300k people? That's 1/3 of the people that watch Impact each week. Suddenly your insignificant audience is a major proportion of the show. Don't use numbers unless you've worked out the math behind them, kiddo.

As far as the word 'indefensible' goes, I misspoke. I forgot that there are some people on this board who are capable of defending anything that TNA does. There's a guy here who once said they didn't have a sexual harassment problem so long as the wrestlers weren't violently raping the announcers in the locker room, so perhaps 'indefensible' was the wrong word. 'Indefensible by anyone who isn't full of shit' might have been the better turn of phrase.

As far as "indefensible by anyone who isn't full of shit" goes, we could start with TNA promoting Adam Jones' appearance as one by a 'former world champion'. Or, we could move to how TNA ran with a main event gimmick for over a year which repeatedly tested poorly with its audience. We could talk about how "major news" is a rehash of what would have been an undercard match in 1990's ECW. But that's the fans fault. When someone says "major news", the fans should think Prince Iuakea is coming back to wrestle Van Hammer, and should get excited when they get anything more.

I've said this to you a long time ago, but you've forgotten the lesson. Words actually have a meaning. When you use a word, there is an intention to influence thoughts and opinions with those words. The more people you speak to, the more carefully you have to choose your words, because- and borrow a Communications 101 book from a friend, it'll be on the first page- the responsibility for how your words are interpreted is entirely that of the person speaking. (When dealing with a rational actor, dealing with the batshit insane implies special rules.) If TNA creates the conditions where there audience believes there is a "major" announcement, it really is their fault when they don't meet those expectations. Is Pacman Jones technically a former world champion? Sure. Was everyone who wasn't entirely full of shit disappointed by that reveal? Yup.

You're welcome to disagree. You've been wrong before, you'll be wrong again, and I don't see why this discussion would be any different. It's yet another iteration out of you about how TNA's problems aren't their fault, but are because their fans aren't liking them in the right way.
 
It's amusing that people have such high expectations for something that is announced on Twitter/YouTube/wherever a couple days before the show. Then when their high expectations are not meant, TNA misled everybody. Then we get the usual anti-TNA rhetoric.

***TNA PROMOTING SOMEONE 2 DAYS BEFORE A SHOW***

IWC Nitwit: OMG IT'S GOING TO BE BATISTA

***PACMAN JONES SHOWS UP***

IWC Nitwit: TNA IS SO BAD. WHERE'S BATISTA? WHAT A JOKE. THEY HYPED IT SO MUCH AND THIS IS WHAT THEY DELIVER.

People think they're going to wait til 2 days before a television show to promote a big name? Hilarious.
 
It's amusing that people have such high expectations for something that is announced on Twitter/YouTube/wherever a couple days before the show. Then when their high expectations are not meant, TNA misled everybody. Then we get the usual anti-TNA rhetoric.

***TNA PROMOTING SOMEONE 2 DAYS BEFORE A SHOW***

IWC Nitwit: OMG IT'S GOING TO BE BATISTA

***PACMAN JONES SHOWS UP***

IWC Nitwit: TNA IS SO BAD. WHERE'S BATISTA? WHAT A JOKE. THEY HYPED IT SO MUCH AND THIS IS WHAT THEY DELIVER.

People think they're going to wait til 2 days before a television show to promote a big name? Hilarious.
This is what we call 'rationalization'. For those of you unfamiliar with the word, please pause here to look it up.

********

OK then.

You're making the mistake that there's only one kind of promotion. TNA is expected to promote themselves. They are a television business. The issue people have is how they chose to promote Pacman Jones, not in the fact that they did.

Here's what actually happened. At the beginning of the week, Dixie Carter went on the world's second largest social network and said, to a fanbase that's practically begging for good news out of TNA these days, "if you retweet this message to your friends 150 times, I'll tell you who the former world champion that will be on Impact this week will be."

This is considered social media ****ing of the worst kind. Directly asking for RT's is generally considered a no-no in the corporate social media world (it's still done, but never well), but this came with a promise of some kind of reward. So, after people- at TNA's direct request- promote that a former world champion will be on Impact, she pulls out TNA's David Arquette. We've established that she reached 1/3 of TNA's audience with this message.

The most common defense of TNA for this shameful affair has been "well, why would you expect someone major?" The easy response to that is "why would you promote only a 'former world champion', when the reveal is guaranteed to disappoint people?" Why not just say "former Tag Team champion Pacman Jones will be in attendance!" Both are instances of promoting someone a few days before an event.

Oh, right- because the whole fucking point was to create hype for TNA, without a care on if that hype could be delivered on. This is why wiser people took Dixie Carter's Twitter away from her a couple years ago, when her HUGE SURPRISES ON IMPACT always turned out to be stuff like 'fresh video package for performer who's been gone two months'. It is- always- the speaker's responsibility to communicate their message properly to their audience, and the larger your audience is, the more careful you have to be.

But it's the fans fault. If they'd just drop their expectations and start watching again, this wouldn't be a problem, right?
 
This is what we call 'rationalization'. For those of you unfamiliar with the word, please pause here to look it up.

********

OK then.

You're making the mistake that there's only one kind of promotion. TNA is expected to promote themselves. They are a television business. The issue people have is how they chose to promote Pacman Jones, not in the fact that they did.

Here's what actually happened. At the beginning of the week, Dixie Carter went on the world's second largest social network and said, to a fanbase that's practically begging for good news out of TNA these days, "if you retweet this message to your friends 150 times, I'll tell you who the former world champion that will be on Impact this week will be."

This is considered social media ****ing of the worst kind. Directly asking for RT's is generally considered a no-no in the corporate social media world (it's still done, but never well), but this came with a promise of some kind of reward. So, after people- at TNA's direct request- promote that a former world champion will be on Impact, she pulls out TNA's David Arquette. We've established that she reached 1/3 of TNA's audience with this message.

The most common defense of TNA for this shameful affair has been "well, why would you expect someone major?" The easy response to that is "why would you promote only a 'former world champion', when the reveal is guaranteed to disappoint people?" Why not just say "former Tag Team champion Pacman Jones will be in attendance!" Both are instances of promoting someone a few days before an event.

Oh, right- because the whole fucking point was to create hype for TNA, without a care on if that hype could be delivered on. This is why wiser people took Dixie Carter's Twitter away from her a couple years ago, when her HUGE SURPRISES ON IMPACT always turned out to be stuff like 'fresh video package for performer who's been gone two months'. It is- always- the speaker's responsibility to communicate their message properly to their audience, and the larger your audience is, the more careful you have to be.

But it's the fans fault. If they'd just drop their expectations and start watching again, this wouldn't be a problem, right?

As I mentioned earlier, either A, TNA knew the reaction and did this anyway for a cheap Twitter push or B, has no idea what they're doing.

If TNA honestly thinks that bringing Pacman Jones back in was a big deal, they're dumber than I though. To compare this to WWE, for a few years they had the guest host concept. I was at Raw for one of these things and there had been ZERO official announcement of who was going to be guest host. It ha leaked on the internet as everything did so a few people had signs, but WWE hadn't officially said anything, or if they did it was VERY quiet.

The guest host was Florence Henderson from the Brady Bunch.

Florence was roughly 72 years old at the time and is arguably only known for being on a show that had been off the air for 35 years. Now she's still a known celebrity and has acted in other stuff since then, but it's very fair to say that most fans wouldn't care that she was there.

Henderson didn't shot up until one of the last segments of the show where she introduced a tag match and that was it. She was on camera maybe five minutes in total and never mentioned again. In short, she wasn't a focus of the show.

Pacman Jones is the same idea, but instead of someone fans didn't care about at all, Jones is someone the fans were angry about hearing. As Rayne said, if they had just said "Pacman Jones will be back for one night only", this wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal.

It comes off as a cheap move by TNA and a way to mess with their fans and then chuckle about it behind closed doors. Allegedly that's why the Nasty Boys were around when Hogan and Bischoff showed up. I remember being told I was getting worked and I asked a simple question: "how does my being worked about an over the hill tag team help TNA make money and be more successful?"

Same idea here.
 
Yes. There really is nothing less important to a television show than how many people are watching it. Because as everyone knows, television is put on the air as a charitable service by people who own multimedia companies. It's totally unimportant that enough people are watching it to justify the continuing rates they charge for advertising. *nod*

Were you born this way, did it take practice, or was there some kind of accident?

I grasp how you don't get the whole "IWC" thing. You're so caught up in telling other people what their points are that you no longer bother listening to what they actually have to say. (That's the point of using "IWC"- you create a belief, call someone "IWC", and imply that they've had that belief. It's called a strawman tactic, and it's why after a battle of a couple of years, you're one of the last people left who uses the term. Look up "strawman defense" on your internet. You'll learn something.)

But if you don't understand how ratings are important to television, we clearly can't have this conversation. That's day one shit, bro. We're having a discussion about how people will get sick of having their chains jerked and stop watching the product. What kind of fool am I for bringing up the metric that's commonly used to determine how many people have been watching a product? How desperate someone must be to introduce actual.... facts into a discussion! How pathetic!

By the way, these five hundred people- can you name any of them? If they're all spouting the same argument, can't you quote anyone making it? It would be a lot harder for me to accuse you of making up arguments if you could actually point to someone that was making them. Y'know, if you aren't just making stuff up so you can attack this "IWC" group that curiously seems to have no living members.

Focus groups are used by virtually every company that exists and sells a product. Not sure what your point is in talking about focus groups, but it's pretty obvious that you don't understand the concept of them.

People have their opinions, but some of them are ******ed and don't make any sense. I can live with people with stupid, poorly formed opinions. It's when those people try to infect other people with their stupidity that I have to get all socially responsible and demonstrate how your ideas are stupid and poorly formed.

You probably shouldn't bother with a response unless you're going to start pulling out some of these five hundred people who are somehow immune to the quote button.


You seem to have some serious comprehension skills. Who exactly are you replying to? Because It sure as heck wasn't me.

Try responding to something I actually said. Are you going to seriously continue to pretend that you don't share opinions about TNA that are in line with the vast majority of people that post on message boards, facebook and twitter and everywhere else? Because if you are, then you're just insane. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with it, but you can't be mad if someone lumps you in when they are just trying to tackle a point that a bunch of people share at the same time.

Explain to me what point I made up. Do you really think when someone addresses a popular opinion they should list every individual that shares that opinion by name? You really don't think I can go to the beginning of this topic, then go to the comments section on Wrestlezone, the comments section on the TNA facebook page, the comments section on the TNA youtube page, the comments section on all other wrestling sites as well and find a ton of people bitching about this very point if I really wanted to?

And I love how you're trying to make a point about how important ratings are, despite the fact that I never actually said they weren't. Exhibit 2 on your poor comprehension skills.

BTW the boycott remark was sarcastic. And please stop trying to seize on ratings. That's literally the most pathetic thing anyone could do. That's the sign of someone that's desperate to have their opinions validated. You have your opinions, others have theirs, just live with that. Even the almighty WWE is constantly holding focus groups to try and figure out why the hell people aren't watching anymore. So it's safe to say that none of us has a clue what would draw viewers to a wrestling show in 2013.

Do you see anything there that says rating's don't matter? Because I don't. I just don't like how people try to seize on ratings to validate their opinions. I have my opinions on some things WWE & TNA should be doing, and it just so happens that both are seeing their ratings decline. But I'm not going to pretend their ratings would skyrocket if they would just listen to me. Hey the WWE listened to THE IWC pushing Bryan and Punk and what happened?
 
You seem to have some serious comprehension skills. Who exactly are you replying to? Because It sure as heck wasn't me.

Try responding to something I actually said. Are you going to seriously continue to pretend that you don't share opinions about TNA that are in line with the vast majority of people that post on message boards, facebook and twitter and everywhere else? Because if you are, then you're just insane.
It would be impossible for me to accuse you of making up arguments if you'd quote people when you're accusing them of having a certain belief. But I point this out, and your response is how you're too lazy to do it- and yet plenty of other people on this board seem to have no problem doing it. We're not asking you to pay attention to the whole board at once, just one particular thread.

Come now, if I've had an opinion, surely you can quote me saying that somewhere? If you aren't just making shit up and attributing it to this invisible "IWC" group that won't fight back? That curiously holds only and all the viewpoints you disagree with? ;) Every time you talk about how you won't, or you shouldn't, you demonstrate a little bit more that you can't, or couldn't.

Look up "McCarthyism" when you get a chance. He's sort of like you, except he was a senator who wielded power over people's lives, and you're the dented-chromosome spawn of two Warrant fans.
Do you see anything there that says rating's don't matter? Because I don't.
And please stop trying to seize on ratings. That's literally the most pathetic thing anyone could do.
You don't like how people try to 'seize on ratings', but that's like saying you don't like how the dealer 'seizes on aces' in Blackjack. It's an important part of the conversation. So when you try to call someone desperate and pathetic for trying to mention how many people are watching a television program, when we're trying to talk about how many people are watching a television program?

Yes, you really do appear to the world like you're trying to say that ratings aren't an important part of the discussion. It's called 'implication'. Look it up.
 
You still haven't responded to anything I said. I use the term 'IWC' to address the majority of feedback that I see on the internet on a particular subject. Not made up in my head, based on what I see and read. Like this thread, for instance. I'll ask you one question.

"Man TNA's surprise announcements suck"

This is what my original post was in response to. Is this a popular opinion on message boards and comments sections or not? I really need you to answer that for me, because it sounds like you're just using "Show me ALL 500 people!!!" as a crutch to avoid responding to any of the points I'm making, which is ironically a straw man tactic.

As someone who likes a lot of what TNA does and openly roots for them, believe me, I wish you were right. I wish that I was making this all up in my head and it was imaginary but it's clearly not.

And again you use the straw man tactic on ratings. Ratings are very important, but that doesn't make your opinion right. It's only your opinion and no matter what the ratings are it will always be just that. That's just something you gotta deal with. What's the point of going on and on about how important ratings are if you don't know anything about ratings and why people watch what they watch? I could say TNA's ratings are down because people want to see dancing bears in the ring. And then look at the ratings and go "See? They got a 0.8 because they won't do the dancing bears!" Just because ratings are down doesn't give you a blank check to say all your opinions and criticism is right. That's my real point in all this.
 
First, once again, you've failed to provide a single example of this overwhelmingly popular opinion. QUIT MAKING MY POINT FOR ME, I NEED THE REP.

You don't understand what strawman means, damnit, you heard me use it and are trying to throw it back. :( That's not me trying to insult you, you completely whiffed on the concept. It's not a strawman attack when you quote the fucking person that made the argument.

Jeeeeeeeeeeesus.

And, yes, when you talk about real people, you are generally expected to use the arguments provided by real, actual people. It is very easy- which is why you're doing it- to say "This is the majority opinion, I disagree with it!", without having to provide any evidence to support that. It doesn't mean a wet fart in the wind, however.

I don't give a flying fuck what you think "popular opinion" is when you're talking to me. I don't answer for "popular opinion". If you're about to claim "popular opinion", yes- in the real world, not the imaginary one, you really are actually expected to be able to provide an example of someone using that opinion. If you're going to say that someone has a popular opinion, yes, you really are expected to provide an example of someone using that opinion.

It's popular opinion that the world is flat. Why should I have to show anyone saying it when everyone knows that's popular opinion? You must have that popular opinion, don't you? Why should I have to quote you saying that the world is flat, when you clearly believe what the International Waterfaring Committee has to say?

This isn't a hard concept. They try to drill this into kid's heads starting in about the fifth grade.
 
I see you finally waved the white flag on your ratings nonsense. That's a good start. Now I still need you to do this:

"Man TNA's surprise announcements suck"

This is what my original post was in response to. Is this a popular opinion on message boards and comments sections or not? I really need you to answer that for me, because it sounds like you're just using "Show me ALL 500 people!!!" as a crutch to avoid responding to any of the points I'm making, which is ironically a straw man tactic.
 
.............

You are not grasping the core concept of this "popular opinion" thing.

What you are doing is called "generalizing". It's considered to be in very poor form when you're discussing, and not going on inane rants. You're insisting that I should allow you to generalize my opinion for me. I really, honestly, truly, don't care what you think what "popular opinion" is. I thought the "world is flat" metaphor made that abundantly and sarcastically clear. No one ever asked you to provide five hundred quotes; I asked you to provide an example of one person in this discussion using that argument, and figured one out of five hundred would be a very low bar for you to reach. Which you still haven't.

Apparently, you're still unable to produce a single instance of me actually using this "popular opinion". It's not a crutch- you're making shit up for people, and insisting upon your right to make shit up for people. I've told you four times now exactly how you can turn this around on me, and you continue to respond with "but why should I have to actually demonstrate that people are saying what I'm saying they're saying?"

The answer is that you're full of shit, which is what I've been trying, very hard, to get across to you. You don't think you are? You can very, very easily demonstrate that just by showing off some of this "popular opinion".

Of course, you believe that the world is flat. You just eat up whatever the International Waterfaring Committee has to say, don't you? Why should I have to quote you on this? It's popular opinion, and you clearly have it.

When I can get through to you about this very basic, grade five concept, we can start discussing things like television ratings again. The fact that I've realized that you need help on the very basics of having discussions with real people should not imply that I've given up entirely on more difficult conversations. We've just gone back to square one; when we can get you up to square three or so, we'll start having that discussion again.
 
.............

You are not grasping the core concept of this "popular opinion" thing.

What you are doing is called "generalizing". It's considered to be in very poor form when you're discussing, and not going on inane rants. You're insisting that I should allow you to generalize my opinion for me. I really, honestly, truly, don't care what you think what "popular opinion" is. I thought the "world is flat" metaphor made that abundantly and sarcastically clear.

Apparently, you're still unable to produce a single instance of me actually using this "popular opinion". It's not a crutch- you're making shit up for people, and insisting upon your right to make shit up for people. I've told you four times now exactly how you can turn this around on me, and you continue to respond with "but why should I have to actually demonstrate that people are saying what I'm saying they're saying?"

The answer is that you're full of shit, which is what I've been trying, very hard, to get across to you. You don't think you are? You can very, very easily demonstrate that just by showing off some of this "popular opinion".

Of course, you believe that the world is flat. You just eat up whatever the International Waterfaring Committee has to say, don't you? Why should I have to quote you on this? It's popular opinion, and you clearly have it.

When I can get through to you about this very basic, grade five concept, we can start discussing things like television ratings again. The fact that I've realized that you need help on the very basics of having discussions with real people should not imply that I've given up entirely on more difficult conversations. We've just gone back to square one; when we can get you up to square three or so, we'll start having that discussion again.

I've already been crystal clear. I trust my eyes. And will continue to use the term IWC when I see fit to. It's my opinion, based on MY EYES, and what I see and read on message boards and comments sections. And I'll just leave it at that.

You know what you're problem is? You're desperate to have your opinions validated. You're looking for that smoking gun. You can't handle any opinions otherwise. That's why you spend so much time on this TNA board. That's why you're over at the TNA fan site so much for some reason. That's why you seize on ratings when people argue with you. That's why when I say 'IWC' you ask me to go and find every single comment. You can't just let opinions be opinions.

BTW enough with the condescension. Enough telling me to look up words. Trying to play smart-guy on the internet is easy. Save that stuff for when someone's right in front of you and can check you on it in real time.
 
I've already been crystal clear. I trust my eyes. And will continue to use the term IWC when I see fit to. It's my opinion, based on MY EYES, and what I see and read on message boards and comments sections. And I'll just leave it at that.
So you've managed to convince yourself of your own opinion on an internet message board. Congratulations.

You're entitled to your opinion. You are free to have whatever opinion that you'd like, and thank you for the free internet psychology classes.

But just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean that your opinion makes any kind of sense whatsoever. This is why people have debates and discussions on the internet, because people have differing points of view. Some of those points of view are valid; some of them are batshit insane. Sometimes, those discussions end with two people realizing that each person has a valid, but different approach to an issue of discussion. Sometimes, one of those parties realizes that the other is batshit insane, resorting to the refuge of "but it's my OPINION!"

Very good. You have an opinion. My hands are clapping very slowly for you.

I still see no examples of where I'm espousing this "popular opinion", but you trust YOUR EYES. Maybe you shouldn't?
 
Yes. There really is nothing less important to a television show than how many people are watching it. Because as everyone knows, television is put on the air as a charitable service by people who own multimedia companies. It's totally unimportant that enough people are watching it to justify the continuing rates they charge for advertising. *nod*

Were you born this way, did it take practice, or was there some kind of accident?

I grasp how you don't get the whole "IWC" thing. You're so caught up in telling other people what their points are that you no longer bother listening to what they actually have to say. (That's the point of using "IWC"- you create a belief, call someone "IWC", and imply that they've had that belief. It's called a strawman tactic, and it's why after a battle of a couple of years, you're one of the last people left who uses the term. Look up "strawman defense" on your internet. You'll learn something.)

But if you don't understand how ratings are important to television, we clearly can't have this conversation. That's day one shit, bro. We're having a discussion about how people will get sick of having their chains jerked and stop watching the product. What kind of fool am I for bringing up the metric that's commonly used to determine how many people have been watching a product? How desperate someone must be to introduce actual.... facts into a discussion! How pathetic!

By the way, these five hundred people- can you name any of them? If they're all spouting the same argument, can't you quote anyone making it? It would be a lot harder for me to accuse you of making up arguments if you could actually point to someone that was making them. Y'know, if you aren't just making stuff up so you can attack this "IWC" group that curiously seems to have no living members.

Focus groups are used by virtually every company that exists and sells a product. Not sure what your point is in talking about focus groups, but it's pretty obvious that you don't understand the concept of them.

People have their opinions, but some of them are ******ed and don't make any sense. I can live with people with stupid, poorly formed opinions. It's when those people try to infect other people with their stupidity that I have to get all socially responsible and demonstrate how your ideas are stupid and poorly formed.

You probably shouldn't bother with a response unless you're going to start pulling out some of these five hundred people who are somehow immune to the quote button.

Okay. that's enough. now you're just being a smart ass. I've never read a post of yours that was so riddled with blatant attempts to provoke a reaction. Usually I can appreciate and understand your opinions and POV, but this whole thread seems to have brought out something in you that is not a good reflection of hte spirit of discussion.

I know that you yourself have in the past used references to the IWC to support your points so attempting to pick on this fellow poster and act like a jack ass is nothing but a personal attack on them from you.

One of hte last to use the term? Practically every poster on this forums uses the term at one time or another and continues to use it as a reflection to either support or refute their own biases, yourself included so don't try and act like you don't.

Do ratings matter? OF course they do. But with so many alternatives to live viewing on a fixed network schedule, there are other metrics that are a much better indicator of the success/failure of a television show. It's archaic thoughts of the now ancient ratings sysstem as a whole that allows crap like reality tv 'keeping up with kardassians' on the air while other, much more intelligent and interesting shows falter. I'm not saying TNA or WWE is up to par quality wise as say, Game of Thrones, Downtown Abby or what not, but they are both far superior then many of the other shows that are ranked higher due to the rather limited and old fashioned measurements being used through the still standard Nielson ratings system. With the advances in tech, there are much better ways to track a programs true viewership but they are not in place for the same kind of reason we are forced to endure the archaic and arbitrary ratings system for movies.

If you want to discuss your opinions nad the other persons, that is fine, but what you are is not in this line of idea exchange, but ridiculing them for using terms and expressing thoughts that you personaly dislike. And you're manner of doing so by attempting to show yourself as being 'smarter' by talking down to him/her and writing the ridiculous descriptions of the strawman defense are simply your attempt to force your ideas on someone else because you lack the same information and proofs that you are accusing that person of avoiding.

Oh and since you seem to have lost your mind, ANY ONE and EVERY ONE who takes this much active interest in an online forum for what is basically a mild form of entertainment, and comments on so much of the product and espouses the kind of ideas you have done is a part of the very IWC that you are now claiming doesn't exist. Internet Wrestling Community.

We are on the Internet, taking part in a Wrestling discussion forum with other members of the wrestling fan base community. This by definition makes ALL of US members of the IWC. So before demand that others show proof or list specific references to statements or events, why don't you do the same yourself instead of trying to hide behind false impressions of education and self importance that you demonstrate through all your posts during this thread of discussions.
 
One of hte last to use the term? Practically every poster on this forums uses the term at one time or another and continues to use it as a reflection to either support or refute their own biases, yourself included so don't try and act like you don't.
Myself included. Really? Care to make a wager on that? Care to find a single instance of me referring to what "the IWC" believes? I think you're going to have to waste a lot of time and search long and hard, so I'm prepared to make a pretty sizable wager here.

It's exactly this kind of shit I'm talking about, where instead of being allowed to argue my own arguments, I have to wade through tons of "well what I say must be your opinion, of course" first. "You clearly must do this, but I'm not about to actually show you doing it. What, am I supposed to demonstrate my accusations?" Yes, when arguing with someone who repeatedly says "you believe this, and no I won't demonstrate you saying that", the argument tends to drift from a discussion of people's merits to a discussion of people's mothers. You can't rationalize crazy.

We are not discussing posters who use "IWC" in the sense of everyone on the internet, because no one uses the term that way unless we're having a discussion over how inane the term "IWC" is. We are discussing one poster in particular who has a long-standing habit of saying "the IWC believes this, but I'm better than them, because I believe something else. Disagree with me? You must be part of the IWC."

I'm a big meanie, I get it, I get that a lot. I tend not to respect the ideas of posters who insist on telling me what my ideas are.
 
300k people? That's 1/3 of the people that watch Impact each week. Suddenly your insignificant audience is a major proportion of the show. Don't use numbers unless you've worked out the math behind them, kiddo.

As far as the word 'indefensible' goes, I misspoke. I forgot that there are some people on this board who are capable of defending anything that TNA does. There's a guy here who once said they didn't have a sexual harassment problem so long as the wrestlers weren't violently raping the announcers in the locker room, so perhaps 'indefensible' was the wrong word. 'Indefensible by anyone who isn't full of shit' might have been the better turn of phrase.

As far as "indefensible by anyone who isn't full of shit" goes, we could start with TNA promoting Adam Jones' appearance as one by a 'former world champion'. Or, we could move to how TNA ran with a main event gimmick for over a year which repeatedly tested poorly with its audience. We could talk about how "major news" is a rehash of what would have been an undercard match in 1990's ECW. But that's the fans fault. When someone says "major news", the fans should think Prince Iuakea is coming back to wrestle Van Hammer, and should get excited when they get anything more.

I've said this to you a long time ago, but you've forgotten the lesson. Words actually have a meaning. When you use a word, there is an intention to influence thoughts and opinions with those words. The more people you speak to, the more carefully you have to choose your words, because- and borrow a Communications 101 book from a friend, it'll be on the first page- the responsibility for how your words are interpreted is entirely that of the person speaking. (When dealing with a rational actor, dealing with the batshit insane implies special rules.) If TNA creates the conditions where there audience believes there is a "major" announcement, it really is their fault when they don't meet those expectations. Is Pacman Jones technically a former world champion? Sure. Was everyone who wasn't entirely full of shit disappointed by that reveal? Yup.

You're welcome to disagree. You've been wrong before, you'll be wrong again, and I don't see why this discussion would be any different. It's yet another iteration out of you about how TNA's problems aren't their fault, but are because their fans aren't liking them in the right way.

Where to start? I will meander through a few tertiary points and maybe tie it back to this waste of time if the mood strikes me.

I have long taken amusement in people resorting to the what do you know, you are a fan "argument" around here. To a scientific mind this argument, at best, is an indication of laziness . The individual attacks someones ability to present an argument that isn't inherently flawed yet they frequently don't bother to prove what has been said wrong. The insinuation is the argument is poor yet they can't actually prove it wrong so it would stand to reason that the argument is better than they are giving it credit for.

These are the types of things philosophers and scientists think about. However, this isn't the type of thought process most people engage in. It is human nature, to an extent, to view the world through your own eyes only. Over time some people branch beyond that and become interested in the big picture while many do not. I always have taken an interest in those areas of my thought process, or worldview, that I later find out are atypical. I am known as a contrarian of sorts around here and compared to average there is probably truth is that observation. Yet, much like just being a fan, just being a contrarian doesn't mean that what I have said is any less valid if a counter argument cannot be provided. At least in a debate-o-sphere governed by reason.

Which is a nice segue into a discussion about the different types of discussions you have with a scientific mind vs a political pundit type mind. One is an open mind in search of the right answer, willing to be proven wrong in the name of intellectual advancement, while the other is educating everyone around them about why they are right and has no intention of anything to the contrary happening. This is why contrarians make them so agitated, they already "know" how it is and are incapable of understanding why anyone would not see it the way they do. When you question them you are not just questioning the current topic, you are pulling at a thread that threatens to unravel their entire worldview. On the flip side scientific minds can't stand these individuals because they are dismissive of reason and do not recognize it as what governs "the way it is." We often hear a quip about moving the goalposts during a discussion but my assertion is all that really means is that the other side has just got a glimpse of the goalposts that the other side has been kicking at all along.

So, what does this have to do with wrestlezone? There are not many scientists on wrestlezone. Even some of the scientific minds on wrestlezone intentionally turn that part of their brain off when they are here because it can be exhausting. Generally speaking, entertainment is meant to target an individual emotionally opposed to intellectually. There are exceptions but I doubt many, if any, would argue wrestling bucks that trend. As such it is not particularly surprising that what we have here is basically a PTI style discourse. Random topic of the day, random reaction of the day that I will now fervently defend as superior to all others without giving it much depth of thought. When that is the norm people tend to lean on their already existing biases/thoughts as the source for their next snippet. This is why we see such fixations/reactions to something that has happened before. Most people like things they are familiar with, it provides comfort, while the unknown tends to induce the opposite. The only problem with this is that it distorts the emphasis/importance of these repeated events.

It becomes even worse when you consider that in order to give the majority the type of news they are comfortable with any reporting also is inevitably tied into this distorted narrative. So I think what I am getting at here is that in this example I am the scientist, who by nature is used to proving things wrong by counter example but also suggests proving anything to be "how it is" a significantly more difficult problem than a pundit like Rayne would as he feels this is something that must be done.

You can tell this from his insistence on selective "reasoning" where he intentionally ignores or purposefully distorts parts of what I wrote while giving no thoughts to the implications of anything other than his chosen explanation. I already knew he was going to write about TNA audience size but I also knew he would think about how many people saw the tweet in that time frame, the possibility for multiple accounts, the possibility that if you average 1.1 mil a week you may well have 1.5 unique viewers in a given month etc. Why because he doesn't have clear answers for these questions so he must ignore them in his zest for an the answer, regardless of true accuracy.

What is absolutely great is how some of the things I debunked he still regurgitated anyway. Why? Because I specifically called him out so he had to answer yet he couldn't come up with anything. Of course he can't change his mind so let's just throw something random in and start insulting people, yeah that is the way to do it! I already knew this was entirely the Dixie thing with Pacman, which was also internet only and clearly a work, and this "major" tweet (an oxymoron if I have ever seen one) but when you isolate it like that it sounds much less meaningful than Rayne has decided. So the "smart" way to do it is throw out another IWC unpopular thing because surely that counts as well even if it isn't really on topic. Dixie Pac, major 18 minute tweet and that recent event which he states started over a year ago.

But is he through? No. Of course you also need to completely miss the point on something and then prove something wrong that was never said because that is how you can really make yourself right. Choose something wrong, delude yourself into thinking that is what they are talking about and then tee off on that. I was never talking about people enjoying wrestling wrong. I was, however, referencing people being mislead into interpreting a message incorrectly, either by their preconceived notions or by the way these type of things are covered. For example, this thread was created half a day after the news had already been revealed by the same source it came from only minutes later. How can anyone argue there isn't some sort of hype cycle and distortion involved here? Furthermore, if you go to the primary source you can tell the major tweet was in kayfabe. But no one even does that or cares?

Long story short, if you want to have an true exchange of ideas then get informed before you do so, if you want to shout your random whims at one another then continue amongst yourselves. And Rayne, your next planned non-sequitur into if it matters if it is kayfabe or a work or whatever is indeed a non-sequitur.

PS The philosophical side of me wants to beat a dead horse on the absurdness of claiming each time this type of hype-letdown scenario takes place that no one will care if they keep this up. Clearly people still buy in every time in spite of it happening 20 times recently, so your whole premise is flawed and at best a theory.
 
300k people? That's 1/3 of the people that watch Impact each week. Suddenly your insignificant audience is a major proportion of the show. Don't use numbers unless you've worked out the math behind them, kiddo.

As far as the word 'indefensible' goes, I misspoke. I forgot that there are some people on this board who are capable of defending anything that TNA does. There's a guy here who once said they didn't have a sexual harassment problem so long as the wrestlers weren't violently raping the announcers in the locker room, so perhaps 'indefensible' was the wrong word. 'Indefensible by anyone who isn't full of shit' might have been the better turn of phrase.

As far as "indefensible by anyone who isn't full of shit" goes, we could start with TNA promoting Adam Jones' appearance as one by a 'former world champion'. Or, we could move to how TNA ran with a main event gimmick for over a year which repeatedly tested poorly with its audience. We could talk about how "major news" is a rehash of what would have been an undercard match in 1990's ECW. But that's the fans fault. When someone says "major news", the fans should think Prince Iuakea is coming back to wrestle Van Hammer, and should get excited when they get anything more.

I've said this to you a long time ago, but you've forgotten the lesson. Words actually have a meaning. When you use a word, there is an intention to influence thoughts and opinions with those words. The more people you speak to, the more carefully you have to choose your words, because- and borrow a Communications 101 book from a friend, it'll be on the first page- the responsibility for how your words are interpreted is entirely that of the person speaking. (When dealing with a rational actor, dealing with the batshit insane implies special rules.) If TNA creates the conditions where there audience believes there is a "major" announcement, it really is their fault when they don't meet those expectations. Is Pacman Jones technically a former world champion? Sure. Was everyone who wasn't entirely full of shit disappointed by that reveal? Yup.

You're welcome to disagree. You've been wrong before, you'll be wrong again, and I don't see why this discussion would be any different. It's yet another iteration out of you about how TNA's problems aren't their fault, but are because their fans aren't liking them in the right way.

Where to start? I will meander through a few tertiary points and maybe tie it back to this waste of time if the mood strikes me.

I have long taken amusement in people resorting to the what do you know, you are a fan "argument" around here. To a scientific mind this argument, at best, is an indication of laziness . The individual attacks someones ability to present an argument that isn't inherently flawed yet they frequently don't bother to prove what has been said wrong. The insinuation is the argument is poor yet they can't actually prove it wrong so it would stand to reason that the argument is better than they are giving it credit for.

These are the types of things philosophers and scientists think about. However, this isn't the type of thought process most people engage in. It is human nature, to an extent, to view the world through your own eyes only. Over time some people branch beyond that and become interested in the big picture while many do not. I always have taken an interest in those areas of my thought process, or worldview, that I later find out are atypical. I am known as a contrarian of sorts around here and compared to average there is probably truth is that observation. Yet, much like just being a fan, just being a contrarian doesn't mean that what I have said is any less valid if a counter argument cannot be provided. At least in a debate-o-sphere governed by reason.

Which is a nice segue into a discussion about the different types of discussions you have with a scientific mind vs a political pundit type mind. One is an open mind in search of the right answer, willing to be proven wrong in the name of intellectual advancement, while the other is educating everyone around them about why they are right and has no intention of anything to the contrary happening. This is why contrarians make them so agitated, they already "known" how it is and are incapable of understanding why anyone would not see it the way they do. When you question them you are not just questioning the current topic, you are pulling at a thread that threatens to unravel their entire worldview. On the flip side scientific minds can't stand these individuals because they are dismissive of reason and do not recognize it as what governs "the way it is." We often hear a quip about moving the goalposts during a discussion but my assertion is all that really means is that the other side has just got a glimpse of the goalposts that the other side has been kicking at all along.

So, what does this have to do with wrestlezone? There are not many scientists on wrestlezone. Even some of the scientific minds on wrestlezone intentionally turn that part of their brain off when they are here because it can be exhausting. Generally speaking, entertainment is meant to target an individual emotionally opposed to intellectually. There are exceptions but I doubt many, if any, would argue wrestling bucks that trend. As such it is not particularly surprising that what we have here is basically a PTI style discourse. Random topic of the day, random reaction of the day that I will now fervently defend as superior to all others without giving it much depth of thought. When that is the norm people tend to lean on their already existing biases/thoughts as the source for their next snippet. This is why we see such fixations/reactions to something that has happened before. Most people like things they are familiar with, it provides comfort, while the unknown tends to induce the opposite. The only problem with this is that it distorts the emphasis/importance of these repeated events.

It becomes even worse when you consider that in order to give the majority the type of news they are comfortable with any reporting also is inevitably tied into this distorted narrative. So I think what I am getting at here is that in this example I am the scientist, who by nature is used to proving things wrong by counter example but also suggests proving anything to be "how it is" a significantly more difficult problem than a pundit like Rayne would as he feels this is something that must be done.

You can tell this from his insistence on selective "reasoning" where he intentionally ignores or purposefully distorts parts of what I wrote while giving no thoughts to the implications of anything other than his chosen explanation. I already knew he was going to write about TNA audience size but I also knew he would think about how many people saw the tweet in that time frame, the possibility for multiple accounts, the possibility that if you average 1.1 mil a week you may well have 1.5 unique viewers in a given month etc. Why because he doesn't have clear answers for these questions so he must ignore them in pursuit of the zest for an answer, regardless of true accuracy.

What is absolutely great is how some of the things I debunked he still regurgitated anyway. Why? Because I specifically called him out so he had to answer yet he couldn't come up with anything. Of course he can't change his mind so let's just throw something random in and start insulting people, yeah that is the way to do it! I already knew this was entirely the Dixie thing with Pacman, which was also internet only and clearly a work, and this "major" tweet but when you isolate it like that it sounds much less meaningful than Rayne has decided. So the "smart" way to do it is throw out another IWC unpopular thing because surely that counts as well even if it isn't really on topic. Dixie Pac, major 18 minute tweet and that recent event which he states started over a year ago.

But is he through? No. Of course you also need to completely miss the point on something and then prove something wrong that was never said because that is how you can really make yourself right. Chose something wrong, delude yourself into thinking that is what they are talking about and then tee off on that. I was never talking about people enjoying wrestling wrong. I was, however, referencing people being mislead into interpreting a message incorrectly. For example, this thread was created half a day after the news had already been revealed by the same source it came from only minutes later. How can anyone argue there isn't some sort of hype cycle and distortion involved here? Furthermore, if you go to the primary source you can tell the major tweet was in kayfabe. But no one even does that or cares?

Long story short, if you want to have an true exchange of ideas then get informed before you do so, if you want to shout your random whims at one another then continue amongst yourselves. And Rayne, your next planned non-sequitur into if it matters if it is kayfabe or a work or whatever is indeed a non-sequitur.

PS The philosophical side of me wants to beat a dead horse on the absurdness of claiming each time this type of hype-letdown scenario takes place that no one will care if they keep this up. Clearly people still buy in every time in spite of it happening 20 times recently, so your whole premise is flawed and at best a theory without any evidence beyond that supporting ""Intelligent" Design."
 
You clearly spent a lot of time on that, and it's a shame no one's going to be able to make it past the first few sentences without becoming disinterested.

Does it bother you that during our discussions over the past few years about TNA's finances it turned out I was completely right, or do you anesthetize yourself by saying it's OK since I never knewewewewewewew for sure?

Please don't ask me to respond to your post, that's some horribly dry shit. At least when I insult you, I keep you reading.
 

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