Loser's Bracket #24: The Rattlesnake -vs- deanandterry

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Apr 23, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Should the WWE bring back the Cruiserweight title?


    This is a third round, Loser's Bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    deanandterry won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 10pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I will argue that the WWE should NOT bring back the Cruiserweight title.
     
    #2
  3. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    I choose to go second.
     
    #3
  4. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Why bringing back the Cruiserweight title would be a waste of time

    A lack of time and effort

    In order for a cruiserweight division to work in the WWE certain things need to happen.

    1) You need enough talent to do it
    2) You need to put in the time and effort to make it work

    Although they can accomplish the 1st task rather easily they have a poor track record for the 2nd task.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WWE_Cruiserweight_Champions

    Starting at title reign 45 (July 3, 2001 - Billy Kidman) is when the cruiserweight title became WWE exclusive. Since then the cruiserweight title was always put on the backburner. It was on Smackdown, the B show and out of the 6 years it was active only 1 time did a cruiserweight title match main event a Smackdown, and that was when Rey Mysterio defeated Matt Hardy for the title in San Diego, Rey's hometown. The title was always an afterthought in its WWE lifespan and was no more then filler for Smackdown and PPV's. Even Mysterio the most successful of all cruiserweights only started to find real success when he started wrestling heavyweights like Kurt Angle and Eddie Guerrero.

    The title got pushed to the background more and more until it was basically non existent. The final cruiserwieght champion was Hornswoggle. Not a knock against Hornswoggle but if your final champion is someone who is 1/3 the size of any other cruiserweight and is no more than a novelty act it goes to show just how little WWE cares for cruiserweights in general.

    A lack of focus for current active divisions

    Currently in the WWE's landscape there is a lot of fluff on the television. The Tag Division and the Divas division, 2 divisions that have always been held in higher regard than the Cruiserweight division and irrelevant in the WWE as it is. WWE's focus should not be throwing in yet another division that will undoubtedly follow the same path as the Tag Team and Diva's division. Even the US title and World title get a lack of attention these days. Out of the 4 divisions just named only ONE of them got a match at Wrestlemania and it was over in 18 seconds when Sheamus beat Daniel Bryan in the opening contest, and that was the top title of Smackdown. How are we supposed to believe they will give the cruiserweight division any time if one of their top titles gets a lack of recognition and attention?

    The truth is the only title that holds any merit and is given any attention in the WWE is the WWE title. The IC title did well when Rhodes held it but when he lost to Big Show its like the title became immediately irrelevant again. The WWE needs to start rebuilding their current divisions before they bother adding a new division into the mix. Its unfortunate its that way currently but sadly its the truth. There's just too much rebuilding to do in your lower to mid card before you start adding in new titles and divisions.

    The cruiserweight style and the WWE style don't mesh

    This is a major obstacle to overcome. The cruiserweight division is high energy, fast paced and focuses much more on the wrestling part of the business. The WWE has stated they aren't wrestling, they are entertainment. 15 years ago back in the Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels era cruiserweight wrestling would have thrived in WWE but in todays WWE it would sink. That's not to say the cruiserweight style couldn't thrive in a WWE environment but it could only happen if the WWE ALLOWS it to thrive.

    At this point in time there have been 3 under heavyweight divisions the Junior Heavyweight division, the Light heavyweight division and the Cruiserweight division. The 1 thing each had in common is they were all shoved to the background and were never given the time and care to thrive.

    The reason is WWE is more focused on the entertainment side of the business where the cruiserweight division in any promotion was built on the wrestling side of the business. Frankly Cruiserweights and WWE are 2 completely different things. Although both take place in a wrestling their focus is completely different from one another.

    WWE has always been about showmanship and storytelling whereas cruiserweight wrestling is about a fast paced style of wrestling and as I already said WWE ISN'T about wrestling its about sports entertainment.
     
    #4
  5. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    WWE should bring back the cruiserweight title


    [YOUTUBE]OIqf2rpuVaY[/YOUTUBE]​

    The cruiserweight wrestlers first shot to prominence in America in WCW. They may not have gone on to become main eventers in that company but just about anyone who watched wrestling in the 90's would tell you that the cruiserweight division was one of the highlights, and at times the highlight, of the show. It was exciting, exhilirating, something that the American audience had never seen before and something that they would wait to watch with bated breath. Can't quite blame them on that. We can all understand just how good it was from the video I posted.

    The cruiserweight division continued to be strong even as everything else started to fail in WCW and it was one of the few things that the company could be proud of in it's final days. Then WWF purchased WCW and most feared that that would be the end of the cruiserweights as WWF had never had a good light heavyweight division till that point. But surprisingly, it did rather well. Matt Hardy enjoyed one of the best runs of his career in the cruiserweight division, guys like Chavo and Rey continued to put on some great feuds and matches and the likes of Kidman, Gregory Helms, Paul London and Tajiri also got some attention.

    However, it did not last. Cruiserweight wrestlers were released for one reason or another, some erratic booking took place and ultimately Hornswoggle won the title. Since then, a debate has raged as to whether the cruiserweight title should be brought back or not and while I have not always been of the view that the title should be brought back, I feel now that it is the perfect time to bring back the title.

    The reasons are as follows:


    1. The Roster​


    Let us have a look at the current WWE roster.

    Sheamus
    C.M. Punk
    John Cena
    Randy Orton
    The Undertaker
    Triple H
    The Big Show
    Rey Mysterio
    Santino Marella

    The Great Khali
    Kofi Kingston
    R-Truth
    Mason Ryan
    Zack Ryder
    Justin Gabriel
    Evan Bourne

    Alex Riley
    Brodus Clay
    Ezekiel Jackson
    Sin Cara
    Yoshi Tatsu
    JTG

    Jey Uso
    Jimmy Uso
    Hornswoggle
    Brock Lesnar
    Daniel Bryan
    Chris Jericho
    Alberto Del Rio
    The Miz
    Lord Tensai
    Mark Henry
    Cody Rhodes
    Christian

    Kane
    Dolph Ziggler
    Jack Swagger
    Wade Barrett
    David Otunga
    Drew McIntyre
    Ted DiBiase Jr.
    Ryback
    Heath Slater
    Curt Hawkins
    Tyler Reks
    Tyson Kidd
    Primo
    Epico


    http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/bios/wwe-roster/

    I bolded the names of the guys who weigh under 220 lbs and could thus be considered as cruiserweights. If you count, you will find that there are 21 names on that list who fit the bill. Just think about it. 21 guys. That is a number good enough to have a thriving cruiserweight division. Plus, there are guys coming in from the developmentals and also guys like Curt Hawkins who will be eligible to compete if they lose a little weight.

    Most of them who aren't doing much. The cruiserweight belt will give the likes of Tyson Kidd, Heath Slater, Justin Gabriel, Yoshi Tatsu, JTG, Ted Dibiase Jr something to do. There are others like R-Truth, Zack Ryder and even Dolph Ziggler who have been cast aside after being used in one or two major storylines. They could also be a part of the division. Finally, you have masked cruiserweights like Sin Cara and Rey Mysterio. This is something that is right up Sin Cara's league and Rey, being a former world champion, will add a lot of lustre to this group.

    Something is always much better than nothing and a cruiserweight belt will give them something to do. A reason to fight. A reason to be on the show, or at least some WWE show, every single week. A belt always makes a division look prestigious and that is what fighting for the cruiserweight belt will do to the wrestlers that I just mentioned.


    2. A stepping stone for some and a career for others.​


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I know that a lot of people blame WCW for not pushing talents like Eddie Guerrero, Jericho and Mysterio beyond the cruiserweight championship and I guess that that blame is justified. But ever imagined what would have happened to these guys had the cruiserweight belt never existed? Given WCW's penchant for pushing larger wrestlers, these guys would probably not have even gotten a chance to contest for the midcard titles and therefore would have been lost in the shuffle and ultimately taken much more time to achieve the successes that they have achieved at this point.

    This is just what is happening in the WWE with a lot of guys. The likes of Evan Bourne and Justin Gabriel are having to compete with the likes of Ezekiel Jackson and Mason Ryan for midcard honours. This may not be WCW but big guys will continue to be preffered because it just makes more sense.

    It is true that a small guy with loads of talent may eventually make it even without the CW division. But having a CW division will only help speed up the process. It is all about finding a diamond in the rough and Cruiserweight title can be of huge help in that process. A seperate division with lesser number of wrestlers as compared to the the number of wrestlers that are vying for midcard honours in present day WWE can really give the smaller guys a chance to shine.

    Let us face it, a number of small dudes have achieved success in wrestling and most of those guys first got noticed when they competed with other small guys like them. The same would happen here.

    But let us also face one more fact. There are some guys who are just more talented than others and more often than not, it is those guys that achieve success. Similar was the case of the cruiserweight division in WCW. Not everybody from that division went on to be world champions but that does not mean that they did not leave their mark on the business. Look at the guy below.

    [​IMG]

    No one sane will argue that Malenko ever deserved a world title but almost everyone reveres him as one of the best technical wrestlers of all time with a beautiful submission hold.

    Just like Malenko, there could be a guy presently in the WWE who could make the cruiserweight division his own and become synonymous with it just like Malenko was. Can you imagine where Malenko would have been without the cruiserweight division? A nobody. Like present day Tyson Kidd. Like Malenko, Kidd may never be a world champion but by competing in a cruiserweight division, he may end up carving a niche for himself.


    3. Cruiserweights are still in demand.​


    [​IMG]
    TNA Destination X 2010

    [​IMG]
    ROH World title match: Kenny Omega vs Austin Aries(c)​


    Look around yourself guys. Some of the most popular wrestlers in the world today are slightly built. CM Punk and Daniel Bryan have been champions in WWE. Guys like AJ Styles and Jeff Hardy are possibly the two most popular wrestlers not wrestling in WWE at the moment. The X-Division is going strong in TNA and ROH has cruiserweight-esque matches on a regular basis, sometimes even for the world title.

    WWE is certainly not blind to what takes place in the wrestling world. Need proof? How about the fact that CM Punk's storyline that we saw in the summer of 2011 was based on Punk's feud with Joe in ROH in 2005? How about the signing and the subsequent rise of ROH-God Daniel Bryan?

    People love seeing cruiserweights today as much as they did seeing them back in the late 90's. A cruiserweight division will allow such type of matches to take place on a regular basis. It is something that the wrestling fans have always loved seeing and they like seeing it even today and WWE stands a chance to profit from it just like it always has by adapting and refining ideas from different promotions like ECW in the 90's.

    To sum up, the cruiserweight belt is something that could be beneficial for the wrestlers, the fans and the company itself.
     
    #5
  6. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    In the beginning of the cruiserweight division I admit it did fairly well but that can be credited to one man, Paul Heyman.

    http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...-tna-and-paul-heymans-mythical-booking-powers

    I'm not gonna go on about how Heyman is the greatest booker ever but the man sure knows how to use talent to its fullest extent. When he was booker Smackdown was arguably the best show in the WWE even though its considered the B show. Of course the talent did their part but it was Heymans booking that gave them the platform to thrive. In essence he took the needed time and effort into making it a thriving division. Since then the cruiserweight division slowly tanked until it became non existent in the WWE. I'm not saying it can only work with Heyman but it needs a booker to let the cruiserweights thrive and considering almost every division in the WWE isnt thriving (such as the divas and tag division) I don't see the cruiserweights thriving either. Like I said before its not that it can't thrive, but its not gonna be given the attention needed to thrive, so what's the point?

    What does every wrestler for the exception of Yoshi Tatsu and JTG on that list have in common? All of them have held titles in the WWE and most of them have done rather well at one point or another without the cruiserweight division.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WWE_Champions
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heavyweight_Champions_(WWE)
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WWE_United_States_Champions
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WWE_Intercontinental_Champions
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WWE_Tag_Team_Champions

    4 of them have been world champions (Punk, Miz, Mysterio and Bryan) being relegated to the cruiserweight division would be a massive step backwards for them. Guys like R-Truth, Cody Rhodes, Zack Ryder and Dolph Ziggler have had successful mid card runs with mid card titles so once again it would be a step backwards, these mid carders want to move up the ladder not down.

    Even guys like Tyson Kidd, Primo, Epico, Gabriel and Slater have been tag champions at one point or another. Every person on that list has proven they can do well without the cruiserweight division. Its not about giving them a division to wrestle in its about giving them opportunity and you certainly don't need a cruiserweight division to do that.

    Although all of these guys got noticed in the cruiserweight division it was done in WCW not WWE. I can't recall one person who got noticed in the WWE cruiserweight division. Even guys like Helms and Kidman got noticed in WCW not WWE. Once again it has nothing to do with if a cruiserweight division can create opportunity its about if WWE will allow the division to give guys opportunity and let it grow and thrive. I have never once seen WWE do that when Heyman wasn't booker and since that's the case and probably never will be again I don't see a reason to. Not only do they need a booker they need to give the booker enough freedom to build it correctly. WWE only hires writers and how writers operate goes against what is needed to make cruiserweights thrive. They are about creating storylines, skits, stuff like that. The best way for cruiserweights to get over is to wrestle and to be given 10-15 minutes every match to showcase their skills. WWE is over saturated as it is to give them that time needed.

    I agree they are in demand but you just named a bunch of non WWE companies who are designed completely differently than the WWE machine. TNA and ROH will give the cruiserweights time to shine. Sure WWE will give guys like Punk and Bryan (technically cruiserweights) time to thrive but they do it outside the cruiserweight division as they have proven. Guys like Punk, Bryan and Mysterio have proven that cruiserweights can thrive without a cruiserweight title or division.
     
    #6
  7. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    I do not see how main eventing a show or not determines the success or the failure of the belt. The cruiserweight title was never meant to be a main event spectacle, it was something that the bookers would put at the start of the show to get the crowd into the show. Like an appetizer.

    I agree though that it was put on the backburner for most of it's time though it did enjoy some attention when Paul Heyman was the booker as you have yourself admitted. But there were reasons as to why that happened and not because WWE just does not have time for cruiserweights or something.

    Basically, there was no new talent to push except for London and Kendrick and mind you, Kendrick did OK. He went on to challenge for the WWE belt. London and Kendrick also did well in the Tag Team division. They both used the cruiserweight belt as the stepping stone for their marginally successful careers in the WWE.

    But yes, apart from those two, all we had were a bunch of old, past their prime WCW cruiserweights. Even they were released from the WWE for some reason or another. Billy Kidman was released for an injury and also for injuring other workers. Same with Juvented Guerrera. Jamie Noble was someone who wasn't even big in WCW so he was of little use here. Psicosis was released after he was arrested. Super Crazy left as he was unhappy with his place in the company. With all these performers leaving at regular intervals, it became difficult to sustain the cruiserweight division. The proof regarding the release issues of these guys is below.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psicosis

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Pantoja_Islas

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Kidman

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventud_Guerrera

    That is not the case today. WWE now has a young group of light heavyweights and they could all benefit if the cruiserweight title was brought back. If the cruiserweight title is brought back today, it would be to help these young wrestlers rise through the ranks and not to pander to people who liked the CW division in WCW.

    The young guys like Gabriel and Kidd are also not plagued with the issues that plagued the WCW cruiserweights. They all want to be a part of the company and do well. They are all thinking of making a mark in the company and not leaving it high and dry like the former WCW cruiserweights did. They are not a bunch of washed up performers entering WWE to make a quick buck. They are all hungry and motivated and the CW title would ultimately serve them very well by providing them the opportunity that they are not presently getting.

    Because of these reasons, I fail to see why the WWE would not invest in the cruiserweights in this day and age. The scenario has changed completely from 2007 when the CW title was last used.


    I do not think there is any such thing as a title holding merit especially when you come talk about the midcard titles. The IC title, US title, Tag Team belts are all given the same amount of attention. From there on, whether or not the belt makes it to the PPV depends on the calibre of the performer holding it.

    It is all about the performers. The reason why the US title and the Tag Team belt did not make Mania 28 is because they were saddled on uninteresting performers particularily compared to the likes of Rock, Undertaker, Cena and HHH.

    I would like to point out that WrestleMania was a rather poor example. That is the biggest show that WWE puts out every year and the focus is always on the large group of main eventers that WWE already has and the ones that return specifically for Mania( Undertaker, HHH, Jericho). The World Title is given attention almost always. Didn't Orton and Christian have a great feud over it in 2011? Didn't Mark Henry enjoy the best run of his career with the world title belt? It just wasn't possible at WrestleMania because of the star power of that show.

    The midcard titles also get a decent amount of attention. If you look at something like the card for Vengeance, you will find that most of the midcard titles like the US and the Tag belt made it to the card.

    Vengeance 2011 PPV Card

    Dark Wade Barrett defeated Daniel Bryan Singles match 5:12
    1 Air Boom (Evan Bourne and Kofi Kingston) (c) defeated Jack Swagger and Dolph Ziggler (with Vickie Guerrero) Tag team match for the WWE Tag Team Championship[4] 13:23
    2 Dolph Ziggler (with Jack Swagger and Vickie Guerrero) (c) defeated Zack Ryder (with Kofi Kingston and Evan Bourne) Singles match for the WWE United States Championship[5] 6:04
    3 Beth Phoenix (c) defeated Eve Torres Singles match for the WWE Divas Championship. Kelly Kelly and Natalya were banned from ringside. [6] 7:18
    4 Sheamus defeated Christian Singles match[7] 10:40
    5 Awesome Truth (The Miz and R-Truth) defeated Triple H and CM Punk Tag team match[8] 15:37
    6 Randy Orton defeated Cody Rhodes Singles match[9] 12:14
    7 Mark Henry (c) fought Big Show to a no contest after the ring collapsed Singles match for the World Heavyweight Championship[10] 13:00
    8 Alberto Del Rio (c) (with Ricardo Rodriguez) defeated John Cena Last Man Standing match for the WWE Championship[11] 26:59

    Source:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeance_2011

    It is not just about one card though. There can be plenty of examples. Did not The Miz rise through the ranks by winning the US title and having a very good reign? Cody Rhodes, like you mentioned in your post, is another example of a guy being given attention because he performed well.

    So yes, the IC and US belts and even the tag team belts are all given attention especially if the right performer is holding them and I believe that the CW title will be given just as much attention as the IC or US belt, if it comes back. The reason? A large group of talented performers who can all have great matches and if given the right push, can all serve the company in the future. Unlike what the case was previously. The company would gain by investing in them and so I believe that they will be given attention. From there on whether they make it to the PPV or not depends on the calibre of the individual performer.

    Still, I see no reason here to not bring back the CW belt.

    Furthermore, there is one more reason as to why I believe that the Cruiserweight title will be given attention if it returns. That is because the COO of the company, Triple H reportedly wants to bring back the Cruiswerweight division.

    http://www.wrestlenewz.com/wrestlin...e-fans-triple-h-bringing-back-cruiserweights/



    It is true that in the WWE you have to be more than just a good in ring performer to achieve success. But it is not as if good in ring performance is not noticed. The likes of Chris Benoit, Daniel Bryan, Rey Mysterio and Jeff Hardy have all gone on to become WWE Champions and you could easily say that they all attracted more attention in the ring than on the microphone.

    However, you cannot really attract any attention till you are given opportunities to showcase your skills on a regular basis and that is the opportunity that the Cruiserweight belt will give you.


    I have already talked about this point of the cruiserweights getting attention. Triple H himself is interested in re-introducing the division and HHH is someone who pays a lot of attention to his pet projects. Furthermore, the lightheavyweights in the company are all young and can serve the company well unlike what was the case in the past. There are reasons to think as to why they may get attention.

    As far as the booking business is concerned, there is no way in which you can concretely say that the Cruiserweights will be booked badly. I see a name on the booking team that spells Kevin Eck. He worked with WCW in his final days. Maybe he picked a few things up on how to book the cruiserweights. You never know.

    http://bio.tribune.com/KevinEck

    I think that even Sin Cara has not won a title yet but I get your point.

    See, even though these guys have won titles in the WWE, they have not really made it yet. Look at Tyson Kidd. He won one title as a part of the Hart Dynasty which served more as a means to hype up Bret's return more than anything else. Since then, he has been lost in the shuffle. The same could be said about Justin Gabriel.

    You know why that is the case? That is because they are also having to compete for the same midcard belts as the rest of the WWE midcard and that is a pretty large number. The cruiserweight belt will allow guys like Tatsu, Gabriel and Kidd to seperate from this large group of WWE midcarders and give them a better chance of carving their niche on the business. They will no longer have to compete with the likes of Mason Ryan to get attention because they will all be competing for a different belt. It is apparent that if these guys all compete for the same division, they are bound to get lesser opportunities but a different division solves this problem for them.

    I could throw in the name of Brian Kendrick as someone who got noticed in the WWE Cruiserweight division and went on to have a decent run. But mainly, the reason why no cruiserweight got noticed much in WWE was because earlier the cruiserweight division in the WWE consisted mostly of washed up WCW cruiserweights who kept leaving the company or being released for one problem or another. That is not the case today.

    The group of light heavyweights that we have in WWE today is somewhat similar to the group that WCW had in 1996. Young, fresh, hungry for success and eager to stand out. All they want is an opportunity and the cruiserweight division is the thing that will provide them that.

    As for giving freedom to the booker, I do feel that Triple H may provide them that considering the fact that he himself is interested in the cruiserweight division doing well as has been evidenced from the report I just provided.

    WWE is someone that always keeps a close eye on the trends of the wrestling world and I have already provided you examples of some of the things that WWE has used in their product from other companies in the past. Cruiserweight wrestling is another one of those things that the WWE may soon incorporate into their product.

    Either way, a demand for cruiserweight wrestling is always a good enough reason to bring it back. As far as the cruiserweights not being given enough time thing, there is no concrete proof of it dude. Situations change with time and the situation has certainly changed in the WWE with regards to the light heavyweight wrestlers that are employed by the company.
     
    #7
  8. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I'm not saying that main eventing a show determines success or failure but even the womens title has main evented the A-show before.

    http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=192714

    Even though its true the cruiserweights are basically an appetizer to get the crowd going when you have faith in a division its not uncommon to give it center stage once in a while. Hell, it was common for the tag division to close the show in 80's house shows and this was on cards Hulk Hogan, the WWE champion was wrestling on. This was done so the last impression the fans had was an amazing match between for example The Brain Busters vs. The Rockers.

    See the link here (look at results for SNME 22-24); http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night's_Main_Event_results#Saturday_Night.27s_Main_Event_XX

    When you have faith in a division its not uncommon to put that match on last, especially if you have faith in the division and wrestlers performing. Also note these examples were done on Saturday Nights Main Event a big time show for the WWE in the mid 80's - early 90's.

    At the beginning of the millenium its very true there were a lot of old, past their prime cruiserweights but you also have to remember its WWE. If WWE wanted guys like AJ Styles, Bryan Danielson, CM Punk and Christopher Daniels gor their cruiserweight division they could have easily obtained these guys with little to no effort and built the division around them. Its WWE, if they really wanted to put focus on the division they would have and got the players needed to make it successful.

    Here's the thing about guys like Tyson Kidd and Justin Gabriel, they don't need a cruiserweight division to do well, they only need to be put on TV for 10 minutes and have a good match. Since the WWE is moving to smaller guys (look at CM Punk and Daniel Bryan as 2 examples of this) they could easily put these guys in let's say the IC division they could have great matches and help reinvigorate that division as well. Even though Ziggler and Rhodes did well as US and IC champ respectively it was basically a 1-3 person division. If they made it a 10 person division with guys like Kidd and Gabriel and they are having great matches every week then these guys have something to do every week, help reinvigorate the division and product in a sense, and do it without a cruiserweight division. Not only that, they can have matches with small guys and bigger guys alike which in turn gives those performers more variety and have them show more versatility. Since you always want to move up to the WWE title picture facing a variety of guys and not just cruiserweights help you get better prepared for that.

    Its nice that's HHH wants to bring back the cruiserweight division but once again they aren't putting enough attention into their other mid card divisions for me to believe for one second they will give it the attention it deserves. I love the cruiserweight division, I really do but the last thing I want is a watered down version that we are accustomed to seeing in the WWE. The WWE simply needs to start beefing up the other divisions first, then maybe down the line, after those divisions are doing better and thriving, then a cruiserweight division would be a good idea but until then its just a waste of time. Sure it may do well for a little bit but it will slowly get phased out for the top divisions and not only will it be relegated to the opening match (which is fine) but it will cease to exist althogether.

    Take for example Beth Phoenix's recent title reign. Whens the last time she's had a title match or done something relevant? Its been a long ass time and also remember my earlier example, the divas were once a division the WWE put time and effort into but now, not so much.

    Its true these guys brought more attention to themselves through their in ring perfomances on a consisten basis but all of them were able to do it outside the cruiserweight division as well. Take the triple threat match between Jericho vs. Angle vs. Benoit at Wrestlemania 2000, or Daniel Bryan vs. The Miz at Night of Champions 2010, or Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio at Summerslam 2002, or Jeff Hardy vs. HHH at No Mercy 2008.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestlemania_2000
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_Champions_(2010)
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SummerSlam_(2002)
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Mercy_2008

    These were all stellar matches and all of them were cruiserweights vs. Heavyweights and got great crowd reactions throughout. These are 4 examples of how you don't need a cruiserweight division for cruiserweights to get over, just give them time and a chance, simple as that.


    As you can see from the 4 above examples a cruiserweight division isn't needed for these guys to make it. You have very few credible IC and US title challengers, very few Tag title contenders. You named 21 wrestlers who were cruiserweights but you could also take 5-10 and make tag teams with them, take 5 for IC division and 5 for the US title division, its actually a very simple concept and something that can easily be done you can give all these guys plenty of time and exposure to get over and it can be done without a cruiserweight division.

    I understand that some people will demand cruiserweight divisiion but is it nearly enough to warrant doing it is the real question. Sure some IWC fans would be happy but your majority casual fan often don't care about cruiserwieght wrestling. Not necessarily saying that's the case but we have no substantial proof enough people care enough to have it in the WWE. Sure TNA and ROH feature guys like that but they do a fraction of the business WWE does which means they have a fraction of the fans, mostly IWC fans.

    There is also another thing to think about, what if the WWE brings it back and does nothing with it? If that happens then bringing back the cruiserweight division will have a backlash effect, much like WWECW. If its not given the attention it needs then people will bitch, complain, get mad until it ceases to exist and if it fails again it will be a long, long time WWE even bothers to do it again so if you bring it back you better be sure to give it the nurturing the division needs, if not it satisfies no one and could be the death knell for the division. Considering how they treat their mid card divisions currently I would think the cruiserweight division would get the same shabby treatment.
     
    #8
  9. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    I am not sure I understand this argument. You yourself have mentioned here that the Cruiserweight title did get to main event a Smackdown show when Rey Mysterio won the title from Matt Hardy. That means that it was given the centre stage for one show just like in the case of the Women's title. The Women's title match got to main event Raw just because it was a Raw exclusive title. If it had been Smackdown exclusive, it would have main evented Smackdown. It's simple, really.

    Also while the bookers may give the opportunity to the wrestlers of a division below the World Title to main event as a sign of faith, that alone is not an argument for WWE showing a lack of faith in the Cruiserweight division. Hell, I cannot remember the cruiserweights main eventing a single show in WCW but they were still a very important to WCW programming.

    You are wrong here. In 2005, WWE signed these guys.

    [​IMG]
    The Mexicools​

    And guys like Kid Kash and Jimmy Wang Yang as well. The very definition of past their prime cruiserweights. So, it is not as if this problem plagued the WWE only at the start of the millenium. As evidenced from these frequent signings of cruiserweights, it is pretty apparent that WWE was interested in this division but they just put their stock in the wrong guys. Maybe it is because they had just not noticed or at that moment did not think highly of the likes of Styles and Bryan. WWE was pretty closeminded with regards to independent performers at that time as is evident from what Dave Lagana, former WWE writer, had to say when CM Punk rose to superstardom this year.

    Punk got the tag line of “King of the Indies” and those agents who didn’t like him before Heyman was gone, they were out for blood now

    http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=178718

    The case, as I said earlier, is different now. Somehow, WWE has managed to gather for itself an excellent collection of young cruiserweights both in the current roster as well as among those who are in FCW. They would all benefit if the cruiser title is brought back.

    1. You say that all Justin Gabriel and Tyson Kidd need is being given a 10 minute match. Question is, why hasn't that happened till date? When was the last time either guy got to wrestle in a 10 minute match on WWE television? With Kidd, I can remember him getting a few long matches in 2010 when Bret Hart came back but since then he has been pushed aside. With Gabriel, I cannot even remember the last time he got a 10 minute match.

    This is simply because no reason exists to put them on television. The Cruiserweight title would give the WWE that excuse to put them on television. The IC and the US title division is simply too big and these guys are at the lower end of that division. They would be frontrunners in the cruiserweight division and that is why it needs to happen.

    2. The US and IC title are not really 3-4 men divisions. Not only do midcarders like Kofi, Ziggler, Swagger, R-Truth, Ezekiel Jackson, Wade Barrett, Cody Rhodes, Brodus Clay and Mason Ryan compete for them but upper midcard guys like Jericho, Big Show, Mysterio and Kane also drop down the card to compete for them from time to time. Add in a comedy jobber like Santino Marella and you have 14 guys competing for the midcard belts which makes it seven men per division. If you add the cruiserweights like Gabriel and Kidd to these divisions, they will never get a chance to even get a shot at the belt which is what is happening just now.

    A seperate CW division would however enable them to seperate from the crowd and competing with a lesser number of guys as compared to those who are competing for the IC and US belts will give them a better chance to stand out and shine.

    See, this is where I disagree. I believe that enough attention is being paid to the IC and US title divisions. Cody Rhodes just had a long IC title reign. The US title has enabled the rise of competitors like Daniel Bryan, Miz and Zack Ryder in the past two years. You are only looking at the belt getting time on the PPV which is not the only thing to look at, here.

    WWE no longer has brand exclusive PPVs in this day and age and has a pretty large list of main eventers which is why the midcard belts do not make the PPV at all times. They do so only when it is held by a very good performer like Cody Rhodes or Dolph Ziggler. But that does not mean that it is not given attention to. The champions are seen on TV regularly having either title or non title matches and stories are regularly built around the title.( See Cody Rhodes, rise of Zack Ryder, Daniel Bryan and Miz.)

    The only title that is not given attention is the Divas belt and that is because women's wrestling has never mattered much in WWE. A divas match is the quintessential "bathroom break" match in the WWE.

    The midcard belts are not doing too badly and therefore I feel that the cruiser belt will do well too especially because HHH is enthusiastic about it.

    The thing is that all these guys were somewhat established before they had these matches. Mysterio, Benoit and Jericho all made their names in the Cruiserweight division in WCW. Jeff Hardy made his name in WWE by performing like a crazy motherfucker in tag team TLC matches at the start of the decade while Bryan was an established independent name.

    Why would a booker even want to book a match between Tyson Kidd and CM Punk in present day WWE? They would surely have a great match but Tyson Kidd is a nobody and nor does he have the resources to become relevant like Mysterio was in 2002 or Jericho was in 2000. That is exactly what the cruiserweight division would do. Make the talent competing in the division relevant and attract some attention towards them so that they can achieve greater success. It would be used as a launchpad to launch some very good careers. Just like what the Cruiserweight division did in WCW.

    I do not think that the demand is nearly as less as you make it out to be. TNA gets ratings in the 1.1-1.2 range while Smackdown gets ratings in the 1.9-2.1 range. Not really a huge difference when you think about it and the X-Division is a pretty big part of TNA. Even their tag team division showcases the cruiserweight style of wrestling pretty often.

    http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2011-ratings/

    Also, what has worked in the indies in the past has worked in the WWE as well. The Summer of Punk storyline with Punk threatening to leave the company with it's top belt was done first in ROH. Daniel Bryan, a man who has achieved success in the indies has done well for WWE too. Even the Jeff Hardy vs Punk storyline was similar to Punk vs Raven in ROH.

    I do not think that will be the case mainly because:

    1. The presence of a young, talented roster of light heavyweights in WWE all of whom who are hungry for success unlike in the past when the cruiserweight division in the WWE consisted of mostly the washed up cruiserweights of WCW.

    2. Interest shown by Triple H in reviving the division.
     
    #9
  10. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Not necessarily, especially if you think Matt Hardy vs. Mysterio would have main evented over Jericho, Goldberg, The Rock, HHH and evolution. I don't see that happening at all.

    You keep up bringing up how important cruiserweights were to WCW. Although that may be true WCW is not WWE. When has the cruiserweight division been important to the WWE? That week that didn't exist? Cruiserweights may have been important in other companies but not in WWE because WWE doesn't focus on cruiserweights. Even in the 80's when they had junior heavyweights like Tatsumi Fujinami, tiger Mask, Dynamite Kid and The Cobra they were never important and I would say those 4 guys were enough to make a strong junior Heavyweight division.

    Frankly Cruiserweights being important to other companies is irrelevant to WWE, its apples and oranges.

    How would it be any different if they were put in other divisions in the WWE? You seem to think they NEED a cruiserweight division for these guys to be successful and that's simply not the case, never has been. Its about the WWE using these guys properly and giving them more exposure, they certainly don't need their own division for that. They could easily take these guys, make some tag teams, put them in the IC and US title picture and its done. Have 6 man tags, have fatal four ways, its not like the WWE hasn't done it before. Its a simple concept really, give them more time.

    This is simply because no reason exists to put them on television. The Cruiserweight title would give the WWE that excuse to put them on television. The IC and the US title division is simply too big and these guys are at the lower end of that division. They would be frontrunners in the cruiserweight division and that is why it needs to happen.

    No reason exists is because they have BETTER talent to push instead of those guys. Guys like Ziggler, Swagger, Miz, Sin Cara all got pushed in 2011 and 3 of those guys were on your cruiserweight list, same with Punk and Bryan. They push PLENTY of cruiserweights and the ones they push are the best of the bunch. CM Punk is WWE champion, one of the top guys in the company, is a cruiserweight and did it without the division. Its all about pushing who you think is better for business. At one point both Gabriel and Kidd did get pushed pretty good WITHOUT the cruiserweight division. Tyson Kidd was part of the Hart Dynasty, probably one of the best teams in the last 5 years, Gabriel was pushed and in a main event program on BOTH shows. How is that not pushing them or giving them enough exposure?

    Yes but in both scenarios I recall very few feuds or programs for those mid card titles. Usually its a few week feud, champ disposes of challenger and next person comes in. For both titles the only 3 real feuds I can recall is Miz vs. Bryan, Big Show vs. Rhodes, and Ziggler vs. Ryder (5 are cruiserweights btw). The rest of the time it was a few week feud, champ wins, next challenger shows up, rinse, repeat.

    The Divas title has never mattered much in the WWE, just like the cruiserweight title, I would say the womens division was much more relevant in WWE than the cruiserweights ever were.

    Also its true Rhodes and Ziggler had great runs but in both cases they only had 1 real feud in Big Show and Ryder respectively. The rest of the time they were just going through new guys every few weeks. As champs they were built and established but the others in that division certainly weren't.

    Name me 1 real feud Austin Aries has had since becoming X-Division champion? Yes, Aries has been a great champion but he also has had no credible challengers to challenge him, legitimately at least.

    Also its true, some things that worked well in the Indies worked in WWE but one of those things hasn't been the Cruiserweight division.

    They could have always done that in the past by simply hiring cruiserweights and giving them time to be stars. Its just something they have never taken seriously.
     
    #10
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  11. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    Are you going to tell me now that the Smackdown roster in 2003 was somehow weaker? Seriously, we had guys like Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Undertaker, Big Show, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero and a rapper called John Cena all on Smackdown. Quite a strong roster if you ask me.

    Also Trish vs Lita on Raw took place in the December of 2004. At that time the Raw roster was not as buff as it had been in 2003. You had HHH, Randy Orton, who was failing as a face at that time, HBK was out with an injury and would only return at New Year's Resolution in 2005. Batsita and Edge had not really begun their rise towards the top. So yes, the point is moot.

    In fact from the looks of it, it seems that the Cruiserweight title main evented in a stronger roster.

    Meh. I used it here because it was a relevant example which proves that the performers of a division do not have to main event a show to be considered relevant.

    And I have already stated why the cruiserweight division failed in WWE. It had old washed up guys who kept leaving almost as soon as they had signed up. That is hardly the case today. You would not have this guy in the WWE Cruiserweight roster today.

    [​IMG]
    Psicosis-35 when he left WWE in 2006​

    But this guy.

    [​IMG]
    Evan Bourne-29, present day.​

    As for the examples from the 80's, give me a break man. WWE was already re-inventing the wheel by being gimmicky and cartoonish as compared to the other promotions that existed in that day. They were already taking a big risk. Having a cruiserweight division at that point would have been another big risk, almost suicidal mind you, considering that a look was considered to be the most important think to look for in a wrestler at that time. Even midcarders at that point looked roided up. Like this guy.

    [​IMG]

    Small guys at that point were considered a waste of time and roster space in wrestling. But that was 1980, this is 2012.

    Stuff like "using them properly and giving them exposure" sounds great in theory but often does not play out that well. See, if it were so easy to do that, then why hasn't it happened till now? Why is Justin Gabriel still languishing as a nobody on the roster? Why has Tyson Kidd been ignored after one good run with the tag belt? Why does Yoshi Tatsu have to do horrendous backstage comedy segments day in and day out?

    A few points here:

    1. How do you even know that these guys are not good enough? Have they been given any chance to prove their worth? Guys like Punk and Bryan were established indy names when they came into the roster. Mistico was a pretty big name in CMLL and that is why he was given a brief push. The likes of Miz got over in the now defunct WWECW. That is not the case with guys like Gabriel, Kidd, Tatsu and Slater. They had come into WWE as nobodies, unlike the likes of Punk, Bryan and Mistico, and because of the lack of opportunities they continue to be just that. Nobodies.

    Tyson Kidd was pushed and then the Hart Dynasty suffered an inexplicable break-up which led to David Hart Smith being released from the company and Kidd being relegated to NXT. Possibly, WWE wanted to push Kidd as a singles heel, which seemed to be the plan at that point. That would have been easily possible in a Cruiserweight division with Kidd competing with guys of his size. But because he was smaller than most of the guys he was competing against, it became difficult for him to get over as a heel.

    Point blank, it is apparent that the Cruiserweight belt could be used to give opportunities to guys who are percieved as nobodies today. Opportunities that are hard to get by in the WWE today.

    2. It may be that these guys are not as good as the likes of Punk. But that does not mean that you should continue to waste them. They should be allowed to perform to their maximum potential, and the maximum potential of a Yoshi Tatsu is to go out there and have great matches night in and night out. Not perform in horrendous backstage comedy segments.

    I gave the example of Dean Malenko in my OP. He was a guy who was never on the world title level. But the cruiserweight belt allowed him to be a recognizable name and have a satisfactory career. That is what the cruiserweight belt could do to a lot of wrestlers in WWE. Give them something meaningful to do.

    That was not the point we were discussing here. We were talking about the large midcard rosters preventing small sized wrestlers from getting TV time.

    But yes, a title can be well booked even if there are no feuds based around it. Look at Miz's US title reign. Before his feud with Bryan, he went about and defended his title against all comers from Kofi to R-Truth to MVP to Zack Ryder and many more. Miz's reign is considered to be one of the best US title reigns in recent years and, as you put it, it featured only one "real" feud.

    But The Miz appeared on TV every week with the belt and winning the belt gave him something to brag about and made him look capable. It also featured some pretty good promos. The following promo mind you, was cut against MVP.

    [YOUTUBE]eb_jEMFoi_k[/YOUTUBE]​

    Still want to talk about the midcard belts not being booked properly? Frankly, it is something that depends on the ability of the performer. The Miz was able to show here and in the weeks after this as well that you can do a great job even in cookie cutter feuds and make both yourself look good and the belt that you are holding look important.

    The same happens today as well. Both the US and the IC champions get significant amount of TV time. Show has been embroiled in a feud with Cody Rhodes that has gotten plenty of coverage and Jack Swagger too is on TV almost every week.

    Actually, the Divas title is something that supports my claims. Women's wrestling has never mattered a lick in the WWE and yet people do say that the divas division was at it's best at around 2004-05. That is because of the presence of great performers like Trish, Lita, Victoria, Jazz, Mickie James, etc.

    The same could be said even for the Cruiserweight division if it is brought back today. It did not work earlier because of old and washed up performers who consistently kept leaving the company for one reason or another but at present day, WWE has a number of talented cruiserweights.

    Even the WWE was forced to pay attention to the Women's belt, a belt that they had never cared for, due to the excellence of the performers. What is there to say that WWE would not pay similar attention to the cruiserweight belt once it's performers start performing at a high level?

    So, you said it here yourself didn't you? That you do not need a long term feud between two competitors to measure how much attention is being paid to the belt. Aries is a great example of that. He is someone who gets both TV and PPV time regardless of whether he is in a feud with someone, just like the IC and US champs in WWE, and he is being hailed as one of the best X-Division of all time.

    But yes, the point here was that TNA features the X-Division belt pretty regularly on their programming. The likes of Aries, Zema Ion, Jesse Sorensen, Kid Kash, Brian Kendrick, Alex Shelley and many more have great matches on a regular basis. Impact also does pretty decent ratings, which is actually comparable to what Smackdown does, so it is not that whatever takes place on their show can just be ignored as something that is watched by only the minority.

    And like I just said, they promote the cruiserweight style of wrestling pretty hard on their show.

    Conclusion


    Like I mentioned in my previous debate, something only deserves to come back or be introduced in the world of wrestling if and only if:

    1. It actually benefits the company in some way

    2. There is some demand for it.

    I have shown throughout the course of this debate how exactly bringing the cruiserweight division back can only help the company. It will give the performers who are currently doing nothing something to do and may even lead to main event careers for them just like what happened to the cruiserweights in WCW. And even if they do not have main event careers, it will still give them an opportunity to make their mark in the world of wrestling, just like it did for Dean Malenko, which would be a huge improvement from what they are doing currently. Which happens to be nothing.

    My opponent tried to prove that that would not be the case but in the end, I would have to say that he was unsuccessful. He tried giving examples of the CW roster having failed in the past but I was able to show just why that was the case then ( old washed up performers who kept leaving the company for one reason or another) and just why it is not something that would happen today( young, hungry performers who are eager for success). His other point revolved around the booking aspect of the cruiserweights and I showed that it was speculation at best especially considering that HHH has shown interest in reviving the division and also because of the performers we have today. It is always difficult to book a division when it's wrestlers keep leaving at regular intervals but that would not be the case today.

    My opponent tried to give me examples of cruiserweights who had done well in WWE and I was easily able to show how most were able to do well because they were established names in their own right before they even set a foot in WWE.

    My opponent also tried to show that the midcard belts were being ignored and that would be a reason for the CW belt not being used properly. I was able to prove giving examples that the midcard belts are being used just fine in WWE and have been used to propel many a career like the ones of Miz, Cody Rhodes, etc and that they get plenty of TV and PPV time.

    Finally, my opponent tried to show that the cruiserweights can be used in the midcard belts but I was able to show how big the divisions really are which would make it difficult for the cruiserweights to get an opportunity. Also that has not been the case so far so I do not see the situation changing.

    I was also able to show that there was a demand for the Cruiserweights by showing that that style of wrestling was doing well all over the wrestling world especially in both TNA and ROH. My opponent tried to show that the demand was not large enough but using the ratings of Impact and Smackdown, I easily showed that that was not the case.

    To sum up, the cruiserweight belt could be something that could benefit a lot of people in the company. The fans want to see it, the company officials have shown an interest towards it and it is something that has no noticeable shortcomings. I do not see any reason why it should not return.

    I rest my case.
     
    #11
  12. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Debating in this thread is now closed.

    Judges, you may begin.
     
    #12
  13. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - Both did great jobs. Very impressed with both. I have to choose one, and I'm gonna go with Rattlesnake. Just did an overall nicer spacing job.

    Point - The Rattlesnake

    Punctuality - Neither were late, and generally were within a usual time frame. With that, it appeared that Rattlesnake had the faster responses throughout. Just my perspective at 3:14 in the AM.

    Point - The Rattlesnake

    Informative - Both had some good links, use of videos and pictures. Rattlesnake had some nice links, and a very productive one in the Triple H wanting it back.

    Point - The Rattlesnake

    Persuasion - Fuckin' A man. This was a great debate from both sides. Both guys kicked ass. Rattlesnake just went balls to the wall in this, and deaner continued to show his moxie. In the end, I found myself siding with Rattlesnake. Turns out he hates the CW division and still made me side with him. Great mark.

    Points - The Rattlesnake

    deaner, this may be a shutout, but that isn't because you lost it. Rattlesnake just beat you. Hell of a job from deaner, and I have gained a ton of respect for him in this tournament. Thoroughly impressed for sure.

    CH David scores this The Rattlesnake 5, deanerandterry 0.
     
    #13
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  14. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Clarity- I think Rattlesnake just presented his case a little more clearly. It wasn't a matter of not being able to follow as much as it was Snakey just seeming to be a better writer.

    -Rattlesnake

    Punctuality-Just so people understand my method here, deaner averaged roughly 11 hours between post while Snakey averaged about 10.5. I did the math.

    -Rattlesnake

    Informative- Both of you guys kicked ass in this one, but I'm going to give it to deaner. It's really a toss up, but I think deaner just used his information a wee bit better.

    Persuasion- I'm giving it to Rattlesnake for one simple reason; before this debate, I was totally against any sort of Cruiserweight division and Snake has totally switched my perspective. Kudos.

    -Rattlesnake

    Nate scores it deaner 1, Rattlesnake 4.
     
    #14
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  15. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Rattlesnake's presentation was top notch. Style was easy to read and enjoy.

    Punctuality: I'm not too great at math and so I'll take the other judges word for it: Rattlesnake has the point.

    Informative: Tough, tough, but I think I appreciated Rattlesnake's stuff more. The images, the videos and the more relevant links really made me side with him here.

    Persuasion: This is one subject I really don't know what to think of...but damn if I wasn't frothing at the mouth for some Cruiserweight action following Rattlesnake's work. He did a fantastic job. Credit must go to deanerandterry too though. I really think he did a spectacular job throughout the tournament.

    FunKay Scores It: Rattlesnake: 5, deanerandterry: 0
     
    #15
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  16. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
    Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Clarity: Rattlesnake. This was pretty close for me but Rattlesnake's posts were the superior and more organized read.

    Punctuality: Rattlesnake. He was a bit faster.

    Informative: deanerandterry. This category was close as well, but I felt that deaner provided better information to fuel his argument.

    Persuasive: Rattlesnake. Excellent job of giving a convincing stance this round.

    I score it as: Rattlesnake 4, deanerandterry 1. Great debate!
     
    #16
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  17. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    We didn't even need Dagger's scores to realize that Rattlesnake took a decisive victory here. The end score is 18-2 in favor of the Rattlesnake who moves onto Loser's bracket #26 to take on DirtyJose.

    Unfortunately, deanandterry, you are eliminated from the tournamant. We wish you well in all of your future endeavors and thank you for your participation.
     
    #17
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