Loser's Bracket Debate #17: nightmare -vs- deanandterry

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by Dagger Dias, Apr 14, 2012.

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  1. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
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    Should the WWE Championship change its design?


    This is a second round, Loser's Bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    deanandterry won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Sunday at 11am EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I will argue that the WWE title SHOULD change its design.
     
    #2
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  3. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Well, you will also get to start us off. I will post second.


    Deaner.... your up.
     
    #3
  4. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Why it's time for the WWE to change the design of its #1 belt


    The current title design was meant for 1 person

    That person is John Cena. See the video below for the unveiling of the current WWE title:

    [YOUTUBE]0dQYPk98omA[/YOUTUBE]​

    The only change the belt has made since April 5th 2005 is the belt doesn't spin anymore but its still the same look and design. The belt is far from a classic World Title belt (see the belt Sheamus is holding for an example) but worked because it complimented John Cena and his character therefore it worked.

    Since October 2, 2007 These have been all of John Cena's title Reigns:

    1) September 13, 2009 - October 4, 2009- 21 days
    2) October 25, 2009 - December 13, 2009 - 49 days
    3) March 28, 2010 - June 20, 2010 - 74 days
    4) May 1, 2011 - July 17, 2011 - 78 days
    5) July 25, 2011 - August 14, 2011 - 20 days (shared with CM Punks reign)
    6) September 18, 2011 - October 2, 2011 - 14 days

    See the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WWE_champions (go to title reign 81)

    This is a total of 226 total days as WWE champion and his 20 day reign (see #5) was shared because of a storyline with CM Punk as he was the WWE Champion when he quit the WWE on July 17, 2011 after Money in The Bank. So in a total of 54 months John Cena was champ for 7.5 of those months, so since October 2, 2007 he has been champion 14% of the time.

    It's obvious he's no longer the perennial WWE champion so as the champ who that belt was made for is no longer the perennial champion the belt itself should change with it. The current WWE title was designed for John Cena, the design of the belt fits his character perfectly and since he is no longer champion there is no reason to keep the current design going. Keeping the WWE title design the way it currently is would be like The Rock and HHH wearing the Smoking Skull Belt around their waist and defending it on a regular basis in late 90's - early 2000's. It wasn't designed for those wrestlers much like the current WWE title wasn't designed for CM Punk or anyone else but John Cena.

    If John Cena wears the belt when champion that's fine as its his belt, the belt was designed for him but when someone else is champ have a different design altogether much like they did during the Attitude era when The Rock was champion.

    A change in times

    In 2005 pop culture was very different than it is today. Things were more flashy and it was very common to see people wearing all kinds of "bling" and even spinners around their neck. Spinning rims were also very popular in that time frame and here comes John Cena with a new WWE title that was covered in "bling" and had a spinning logo in the middle of it. Not only did the belt compliment John Cena in character but also complimented pop culture in general.

    Since then things have changed. Pop culture goes through cycles and change through the times. I don't recall the last time I've seen spinning rims, people wearing ridiculous amounts of bling, lately the most bling I've seen is 15 year old girls "be-dazzling" their phones and even that is going out of style.

    As society has changed since 2005, the WWE title belt should change as well. The current design compliments the time frame it was created so as times have changed the belt design should change. You can change it to something that compliments the times or a design that's timeless and looks good in any time period. Every single male WWE title belt has a timeless classic look except for the WWE Title, its time for the biggest title in the company to follow suit and have a look and design that is timeless and looks good in any time frame (like the World Heavyweight title).

    It's large, awkward and looks terrible

    I will let John Cena himself do the talking here:

    Source: http://www.wrestlingnewsworld.com/j...mes-future-stars-his-one-dream-opponent-more/

    John Cena is right and this is the guy who unveiled and invented the current design of the belt in the first place. Especially when someone small like Rey Mysterio or CM Punk is the champion it just looks awkward around their waist, it hangs low and is much larger than the person holding the belt.

    There is no need to have a belt that heavy and awkward not only that its cosmetically displeasing. It doesn't look classic or something you would be proud to carry, it looks like it came out of a cracker jack box. All the other WWE title belts looked great and looked like something you would be proud to carry, the current WWE title is easily the worst looking WWE title belt of them all. It looks like it was designed by 50 cent.

    A title should be elegant, simple and have a classic, timeless look. The current WWE title certainly isn't any of those things so there is no need to keep it that way.

    Let me ask you what would you rather carry?

    This:

    [​IMG]

    or This:

    [​IMG]
     
    #4
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  5. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    The current look of the WWE Championship does not need to change.


    This current version of the title has caused quite a controversy among fans, but why? It has more to do with the dislike of John Cena than the belt itself. The belt was created for his character and the look was indicative of pop culture during that time. The character of Cena has divided the fans of WWE since his rise to fame and this also extends to his merchandise, including the design of the WWE title. So why all the fuss? What really is the problem? The belt has done what it was designed to do; usher in a new era in the WWE and sell merchandise. Let’s break a few things down, shall we?



    The new era of wrestling.

    [​IMG]


    The market and viewership for wrestling hit a lull. It was a transition period of sorts. So how do you boost sales\attendance? Bring in a new crowd. During that time (2005) Cena was being pushed to the moon as the new face of the WWE. Kids love the guy; he’s flashy, charismatic and over the top. This got kids to tune in and when they did, they wanted to be like their hero- John Cena. So what happens when kids become obsessed with something new? Parents shell out the cash. What could a kid want more than to strap on that belt and strut around spouting his catchphrases? That year merch revenues jumped from $3.7 million to $5.2 million. Now that is a pretty big jump. Now I’m not saying it is all because of the belt, but anything related to Cena skyrocketed. Just take a look in the crowds, how many kids are running around wearing his shirts with that belt on their shoulder? A hell of a lot more than most older fans want to admit. The WWE is now geared more toward kids during this time, something we haven’t seen since the times of Hulkamania.



    Older fans refuse to accept Cena.

    [​IMG]


    The new direction split the wrestling world in half. Older fans dislike Cena’s character, his shirts and the belt design. They argue it goes against tradition and clamor for the days of the Attitude Era. They will complain about anything related to him since his rise and still do to this day. Terms were thrown around like ‘gaudy’ and ‘childish’. Wrestling fans are notoriously passionate regarding tradition and voice their opinions openly. The older fans downright despise Cena and ‘his’ belt. They dislike the direction the WWE took because it was geared towards building fans of a younger generation. It went against everything they grew to love about wrestling. Problem for them is that it worked. Cena became the top guy and he became the new generation’s version of Hulk Hogan. The Cenation buys tickets and merch and has brought the WWE into a new era of wrestling. The belt is a representation of this era that easily translates into a marketable source.



    Belt designs represent the era in which they were born.


    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    The new breed of fans have no attachment to the belts of past. This version is what they know and will always remember as ‘the’ belt. 15 years from now, those fans will be complaining about how they hate whatever new design and want ‘their’ title back. Just like older fans now are saying they want the old belts back. It's nostalgia. This belt will be around for a bit longer. Sorry folks. The WWE listens to its fans, but the fans they are most concerned with are the current younger demographic. Those are the fans that have rebuilt the WWE and they don’t mind how the belt looks. In fact, they pay good money to get replicas\toys. In the past few years the WWE has held the #1 spot in sports merchandise sales. They hold 44% of the market and it accounts for roughly 20% of the company’s income. In 2011 alone that netted $94.9 million dollars for the company. That includes toys, shirts and title belts.


    -----

    In the end it doesn’t matter what the belt looks like. It is what the belt represents. This version represents a new era in the WWE and with the help of Cena, they brought the company back to the mainstream. WWE used this belt and other merch to promote the new era of wrestling and it worked. Love the design, or hate it, but it will always be a symbol of when the business changed. When the newer fans grow up, this will be the belt they remember. It has undergone small changes (Edge, Miz, removal of the spin) but has remained as a whole. I’m sure it will be tweaked a bit (logo change, lighter material, etc.) in the future but I don’t see them scrapping the whole belt any time soon. This incarnation of the belt represents a new era in the history of the WWE Championship. It is the symbol this generation recognizes as the top belt. When all these kids talk of growing up and becoming a WWE Superstar- this is what they dream of having around their waist.



    (Figures used were obtained directly from WWE Corporate http://corporate.wwe.com/index.jsp)
     
    #5
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  6. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I disagree completely that the dislike for John Cena is the reason for the dislike for the current WWE title. When the title first came out I personally didn't mind it at all, mostly because it was a belt that complimented John Cena and pop culture in general. The problem is now that John Cena isn't the champ and hasn't been the perennial champ for a long, long time. He may be the #1 guy but the #1 guy and the champion are 2 very different things. John Cena just finished off a feud with the Rock and is now moving onto Brock Lesnar, his focus isn't the WWE title anymore so make a new design for the belt to compliment both the current champs and pop culture in general. As I said in my initial post although the belt complimented the times in 2005 it is now 2012 and pop culture has changed drastically. Bling isn't in anymore. Since the belt compliments nothing in wrestling or pop culture at all these days what's the need to still have it around?

    The reason people don't like it is because the belt doesn't really fit anymore. Sure, people complained when the belt first came out but those voices became louder and more as time went on because it compliments nothing, there's no need for it. Even John Cena the leader of the new era of wrestling agrees it needs to change. If the inventor of the current design thinks it should change and most people think it should change then its time. The belt had a good run and ran its course, now its time for a new run with a new belt design.



    I don't understand how this has anything to do with the current design of the belt and why it shouldn't change. Just because its a new era of wrestling geared more towards little kids has nothing to do with why the belt needs to change, none whatsoever. Kid's are big into John Cena that's very true. Merchandise revenues also jumped high but how much of that revenue was from little kids buying spinning belts?

    Cena MERCHANDISE does a killing in sales but what does that have to do with the belt in general? His shirts and wrist bands are what sells, not the belt he wore around his waist 14% of the last 4 1/2 years of time. The belt simply isn't Cena's anymore and since the belt isn't Cena's and is no longer relevant to the Cena character what is the need to have it around?


    The belt was designed before the current era of wrestling. What made the current era what it is isn't because of John Cena but because of what Chris Benoit did in his final days in June 2007. This event alone caused the shift in change. See John Cena's Elimination Chamber match at New Years Revolution in 2006, the night Edge won the WWE title. That match Cena bled buckets as WWE still had plenty of edgy content. This match happened 9 months AFTER John Cena won the WWE Title from JBL at Wrestlemania 21.

    When Chris Benoit's double murder, suicide happened everything changed in wrestling because they were under the gun from pretty much everybody. That's why they are more stringent with their drug policy, shots to the head with a chair and with wrestlers bleeding. In 2009 at Breaking Point John Cena
    got busted open 10 minutes into his Iron Man Match with Randy Orton and what did they do? They came down, patched Cena up and then resumed the match. In 2006-2007 things weren't like that at all and this is when John Cena had his longest reign as champion sporting the current WWE title design. John Cena isn't the reason for the PG Era, Chris Benoit is. Therefore, since the belt was technically designed for the era BEFORE the PG era saying the belt represents the new era of wrestling has no merit, especially since it existed before then.

    I agree it did represent the era it was designed, but the era it was designed and the PG era are not the same era, not at all. John Cena hasn't been champion for the majority of the PG era so there is no reason to have a belt that represents him.



    Once again the current WWE title design complimented the era BEFORE the PG era not the current one. I see you're spouting how much revenue from merchandise they have made. That's great and all but the problem is the sales of the WWE spinner belt have slowly been diminishing for a while now. At the end of the day kids love the spinner belt because of John Cena. This is true but they love EVERYTHING that John Cena sells and moves. If John Cena won the title and sported a new design they would love that too and start buying the new design. Also if they came out with a better looking belt I'm sure young kids and adults alike would be buying it too because not only would it be something kids love because John Cena has it, it would also be something adults would love because of its a design that compliments their style and preference as well, not to mention often what is sported as cool is what the older audience thinks as well.

    I'm also gonna point you to this tidbit of information:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...na-upended-as-the-wwes-top-merchandise-seller

    John Cena isn't the top merchandise leader anymore CM Punk is. Since CM Punk is the new merchandise leader there is no reason to have a WWE title belt that compliments Cena, have a belt that compliments CM Punk. He is the current merchandise leader and has been since October, 6 months ago.

    When Stone Cold was champion his Smoking Skull belt was also a merchandise monster, much more than the Attitude Era WWE title belt but they didn't keep the Smoking Skull belt around unless Austin was champion. As they did that with Stone Cold's Smoking Skull belt they should do that for John Cena's spinner belt.

    The belt no longer compliments anything. It doesn't compliment John Cena, the era of wrestling or pop culture in general. The belt had a good run but has run its course. The changing of the guard is happening and you see it happen on a weekly basis. Things are slowly gearing more towards the older fans as you can tell from the memorable promo CM Punk gave right before his title win at Money In The Bank. They are starting to make things more real and even seem to be listening to the older fans more than more.

    Sure they still make millions of dollars a year but in the Attitude Era, an era garnered towards the older audience is when they made their most money. Back in 98-99 WWE was the #1 merchandise mover in the world. Wrestling goes in cycles and although they aren't going to go full force Attitude again they are slowly making things more real, edgier, and even bringing back blood (see the HIAC at WM28 and Brock making Cena bleed last Monday night).

    The tide is turning in the WWE, things aren't garnered as much to little kids anymore and as the tide is turning make a new belt that helps usher in the new era of wrestling that is slowly but surely happening, the current belt design is an era behind as it is.
     
    #6
  7. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Why isn’t it relevant? Because Cena isn’t champ or because you don’t like the design? It still represents the legacy of the WWE Championship. The belt replicas still sell today as well as toys with the belt still sell. All the merch ties together. Show me a figure where the title design has caused a decrease in sales. Go on, ill wait...


    As far as your claim to the dirty little WWE secret… The Chris Benoit situation happened during his run in ECW. A completely watered down version of ECW and the WWE alike. The transition was already taking place. The violence\blood was already far removed from anything the Attitude Era or ECW originally produced. The travesty of the Benoit family just added to and solidified the direction in which the WWE was going. They became more cautious and strict, but already started toning down the product as a whole before this. Cena didn’t cause the shift, but his character was used to spearhead the change and initiative in the new direction.




    Show me proof…. I'm still waiting...




    What proof do you have? What makes you think Cena would be the first to hold a newly designed belt? What magical belt do you conceive that will please everyone? A belt that has barbed wire and blood wrapped around Sponge Bob Squarepants?




    Smoking Skull belt was around for a very short time and to this day, is not more requested\purchased than the Attitude Era belt. Look around, how many Smoking Skull belts do you see at house shows? Not as many as the 'big eagle' belt made popular during the Attitude Era i bet. Hell, there are more current designs over the shoulders of fans than that one. (including the big gold belt, attitude era belt, current WWE belt, undisputed belt... hell, you get my point right?) Oh, just wait son. I got a paragraph already prepared for that argument. We will get to that in a bit…




    Show me a figure that they made more money in 99 than 2011\12. The company made roughly $94 million in merch revenue last year (see my figures from WWE corporate). Edgy? Yes, because of Punk. Bound to happen because of his nature as a performer. The WWE is known to capitalize on what works. Right time, right place. Made for great TV and sales.

    HIAC was a last battle representing the ‘end of an era’. The same era you quote. It was aimed that way, not as a starting off point for bloodier things to come. As far as Lesnar\Cena, that wasn’t meant to happen. Live TV plus a wild punch does not equal what you are claiming. Just look at the ‘Extreme Rules’ PPV they have initiated in years past. It is a PPV designed to up the ante without breaking too many of the WWE rules. It is nowhere near the level of violence\gore that the Attitude Era or ECW made popular. You, me and fans everywhere know it.
    --------




    This is something that has been said for years. Guess what? The belt has stayed the same. Reason why? It was highly marketable, turned a great profit and became a symbol of a new era. What started out as an idea based on Cena’s character; became a catalyst for the new WWE product. It is, to this day, the most stand out of all the belts because it is different than past designs. Like it or hate it, you will never forget it.


    Remember that paragraph I promised?...


    The belts you call into question were one off shoots. They served a very small purpose storyline wise and were nothing more than ideas to sell extra merch. Hell, Taker had a belt made by Jakks that never saw air-time but sold a lot of units. They will never be considered legit titles or be resurrected as contended belts in the future. The Brahma Bull title was never used on T.V.; legend has it that the belt was lost in transit. The Smoking Skull belt was created by Ausitn without knowledge of WWF\E and became a focal point of a future storyline. (Remember where Rock was awarded it and threw it into the river?). Once Rock won that part of the feud, it was back to the big eagle belt. The current incarnation has had some small changes due to feuds (Edge and Miz) but has stood the test of time.


    [​IMG]

    This belt has been around since 2005. That is 7 years and counting. The only WWE title that has had that longevity is this belt…

    [​IMG]

    The one Hogan debuted in 1988, the famed ‘Winged Eagle’ belt. That is saying something. This current belt design has been around for the 2nd longest time in the history of the WWE Championship. Similarities? The belt represents a new era in the business and stands the test of time among fans brought up during the particular era.




    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Who says it’s displeasing to the eye? You? The IWC? Those folks above seem to like the title..

    Ah, you quoted Cena himself… but he said it was heavy; not like a cracker-jack prize. Well- he is right about the weight, but that can be solved by a simple change. Make it lighter. You can keep the style and make it easier to carry. Simple changes can be made like weight and the font inscribed. (Champ to Champion if you will). Many in the IWC think belts should reflect the current holder. So do you expect the WWE to invest in a different belt every time a title change is made? That is not going to happen. Belts are expensive to make and take time. The one-off belts referenced before were never meant to be permanent. If everyone got a new belt we would have travesties like this:

    [​IMG]


    If the WWE were going to change the belt by now, they would have. Open opportunity came when RVD won at One Night Stand, Edge won at New Years Revolution, or when Orton won, HHH won, or then when Miz won, and of course then when Punk won. It didn’t happen for a reason. Money, marketability and direction. The belt is a status symbol that sets you apart as best in the world. Maybe the problem with the reaction to the belt is 2 fold. Partly due to the dislike for being tied to Cena and partly due to the status it garners.


    The ‘Winged Eagle’ design was THE belt to win back in the day. The one belt talent fought to obtain. Now we have 2 major belts to cause claim as the best in the company. This ultimately changed during the Invasion angle, before titles were unified and split again during the brand extension. The rosters in the current WWE landscape are smaller; much like the days of Hogan\Austin etc; the days fanboys rejoyce over.

    So why the 2 titles? As much history the World title holds, it is relegated to the 2nd class spot in WWE. (see Sheamus\Bryan 18 second match @ WM). RAW has become a ‘supershow’ featuring both rosters; much like when SD was first produced. Storylines on SD have become secondary and title feuds as a whole have become somewhat repetitive with the same guys fighting back and forth (see Kane, Show, Bryan and Henry). If not for Orton\Cena being removed in the past year or so, we would have the same battles over again in the main event. The feud IWC freaked out over this year... Punk\Jericho. What would make that feud more legitimate as ‘best in the world’; one title…

    ----

    Maybe it’s not so much the design, but the meaning behind it.

    I’m going to be shot for this but hear me out.

    Unify the titles. I know, I know… Boooo!!. I can hear you all now. Vince would ultimately decide to keep the WWE title as opposed to the World title because in his mind; the history he built supersedes the history built by any other company. As much as I love the big gold belt, we all know Vince would scrap that one first before he shelves the WWE title. Having one title restores the prestigious history of the title back to the days of yore that older fans clamor for, yet keeps the design new fans recognize.

    Remember the days when the IC title was considered more than just a midcard title? That meant you were the #1 contender for the world title. Great men held that belt. It has just now started to regain its glory because of Rhodes. Having the 2 shows, reduced roster but one major title- can benefit the future and structure of the company. I love the World title design, but in the eyes of WWE history- it will always be inferior no matter what the IWC thinks. If you have one belt, not only will it focus the title picture, it will regain prestige to the other titles like the IC belt and Tag Team belts. This is a structure that worked in the days of Hogan as well as the Attitude Era. It is also something the IWC screams for everyday here @ WZ. The overall product was more enjoyable then, not because of belt design, but rather the meaning of titles and feuds that came with them.

    In short, the belt keeps the current design. It has purpose and is only despised by those who wish for the golden days of their youth; or those who hate everything Cena represents. Get over it. The belt is historic and memorable. Vince will change the look when the time is right. If you are pissed about it; train your ass off, get a contract and try to convince Vince McMahon you have better ideas than him…..
     
    #7
  8. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Well lets take a look at the full 2011 report shall we:

    http://ir.corporate.wwe.com/file.aspx?IID=4121687&FID=12752661

    So a 2.5 million dollar decrease in consumer products over a 12 month period doesn't equate to a decrease? Merchandise is grouped in with consumer products so yeah that would indicate a decrease in merchandise sales over the last 12 months.

    Venue merchandise (as in what is sold at the arena) was only a $100,000 decrease over 12 months so that's pretty much the same.

    All in all though over the last 12 months there has been a $2.6 million dollar decrease in consumer products and merchandise over the last 12 months.

    ECW is a WWE owned brand and it was watered down to be more "WWE" like. ECW on Sci Fi is basically the C show of WWE behind RAW and Smackdown. Just because there wasn't as much violence as in the Attitude Era doesn't mean there still wasn't plenty of blood drawn.

    Lets take a look at the night John Cena lost to Edge for the title:

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7equ5_edge-vs-john-cena-new-years-revolut_sport

    Now lets take a look at the Flair vs. Foley I quit match from Summerslam 2006:

    [YOUTUBE]eEhW-iIUeVg[/YOUTUBE]

    Now lets take a look at the HIAC match wit DX vs. The McMahons and Big Show from that year:

    [YOUTUBE]ysaNwFU_B3I[/YOUTUBE]

    All of these matches happened in 2006. All had extreme amounts of blood and all were well AFTER John Cena became the top guy in the WWE. It isn't the Attitude era, that was toned down before Cena was even on WWE television but they still had plenty of violence and shots to the head.

    Now show me how many bloody matches there have been SINCE the Chris Benoit incident. Go ahead I'm waiting.....

    Already did see 1st statement.



    The old Winged Eagle belt from the 90's appeases pretty much everyone. I haven't heard 1 bad thing about that belt since it was conceived. Personally a new design for the new era being ushered in, which I will call loosely the reality era. An era where things stray the lines of reality even more than ever before. That would be my personal preference. The PG era is coming to an end. That doesn't mean it will get SO edgy that kids can't watch it but you can appease adults and kids alike. They did it in the Hogan era so why can't they do it in this era?

    The WWE title is the current belt being used so of course its gonna sell better CURRENTLY than the other belt. The Big Gold belt has been around for 10 years so I'm guessing merchandise sales have been going pretty damn strong for that belt to last as long as it has. It's reaching Hogan Era winged eagle longevity as they've both been alive for a decade. You know the same gold belt Aaron Rogers was shown holding with the Lombardi Trophy. Let me show you:

    [​IMG]

    All I'm gonna say is this. The Miz, John Cena, and CM Punk (3 of the 4 last WWE title holders) have come out on record saying the WWE title design should be changed. Now have you ever heard anyone ever complain about the big gold belt and how it needs to be changed?

    The Miz has even gone on record saying it looks more like a toy than an actual championship. This is the same guy who actually HELD the belt for 6 months in 2010-2011.

    Not only that the WWE itself is taking notice as they have had features on their web site hinting at a new title design change. I'm obviously not the only one thinking it should change when WWE.com has even stated it.

    It is a known fact though that Vince was a billionaire in 1999 because the WWE was doing so well in all facets. The same that its a known fact that it was #1 in merchandise in 98-99 even eclipsing South Park which was a merchandise monster back then.

    Check out these numbers since WWE became a public company back in October of 1999:

    http://www.google.ca/finance?client=ob&q=NYSE:WWE

    Note that the price of 1 stock cost $24.00 a share back when it started. As of April 5, 2012 the stock is now at $8.33 a share, almost a 1/3 of what it was back in 1999. Not sure if you know much about stock but the more a share is worth the more profitable a company is. You wanted proof they were more profitable back in 99 there it is, 3 times more profitable to be precise.


    Yes it has become more edgy because of Punk because Punk is dawning in a new era in wrestling right now (which once again I will call the reality era). Since the WWE has capitalized on what works they should keep doing it. Since you pretty much admitted things are changing and getting a little edgier why not have a belt that represents the new era dawning?


    It may have been an accident to bloody up Cena but they did nothing to hide it. Back at Breaking Point 2009 Cena got busted open by accident and they patched him up right then and there only to continue the match. Last Monday not only did they not patch him up right then and there, Cena was wearing blood on his face the entire broadcast so they aren't shying away from blood.

    Who cares if its not Attitude era violence, it still doesn't mean there can't be violence and blood!


    Yes it was created for Cena and fit the era it was created in. We aren't in that era anymore. The winged eagle belt was made 24 years ago I haven't forgotten that belt either. Every belt from the past has been profitable since they started selling merchandise in the mid 80's, EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's not the symbol of the era, its the symbol of being the champion. Everyone wants to be a champion and that's what that belt represents being a champion.

    Take a look at this shot from How I Met Your Mother, one of the most popular shows on TV:

    [​IMG]

    See Barney's 3 way belt, which belt is that again?


    You basically admitted any belt would sell money then if The Undertaker had a belt that sold a lot of units and never saw air time. Also I really doubt Austin created that belt without the knowledge of anyone. If that was the case WWE wouldn't have been able to sell the smoking skull belt in the 1st place.

    Lastly, when The Rock threw his belt over the bridge he brought it back the next week during Austins funeral. Also, Austin was given that title belt back by Mr. McMahon at Backlash '99 after Austin WON the feud against The Rock. Austin kept defending the Smoking Skull Belt well after that incident. You should really get your facts straight.

    Also 7 years isn't standing the test of time the big gold belt that's been around since 1988 however, THAT has stood the test of time.



    1st I'm gonna say I laughed when you showed Jeff Hardys TNA belt. But you are comparing TNA to WWE. TNA is stupid WWE is not. I don't think every champion should have their own belt but a belt that compliments the brand and not one person would be a good idea. The big gold belt is a good example of what I'm talking about. Its been around since the late 80's and WWE has been using it for 10 years, much longer than the WWE title.

    John Cena may have said that its big and awkward, but CM Punk and The Miz have gone on record saying how ridiculous it looks. The Miz said it looked more like a toy than an actual title belt for god sakes, remember.

    They didn't change it because at the time it complimented pop culture and the fans in general. Once again, things have changed since then. At one time the belt complimented a lot of things. I've never said I disliked the current WWE design, I do think it looks bad but at least in 2006 it complimented the company and pop culture. Its now 2012, it doesn't compliment anything in the WWE anymore. It doesn't compliment Cena, pop culture, or anything in general.

    The belt was good for its time but its time has passed.


    The design of the belt has nothing to do with the WWE title being the top title. Its because that has ALWAYS been the top title in WWE since they broke away from the NWA and made their own champion. This is NOT relevant to the design of the title in any way, shape or form.



    Once again, the argument of unifying the titles has NOTHING to do with the current title design. I would enjoy that personally but it has nothing to do with the debate so I'm not gonna waste my time. Make a thread that has to do with unifying the titles and I will talk about that with you in that thread, not here.

    Lastly I don't have to get a contract to convince McMahon the design of the belt needs to change, CM Punk and John Cena are doing that for me.
     
    #8
  9. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Look at the progression of sales during each year. Each time the sales boom at the beginning and slowly taper off throughout the year. It’s not caused by the belt. I said show me an example of where the belt has caused a decrease in sales. You did not.




    I never once said there was no blood\violence. I stated it was being toned down and the Benoit situation made them more strict\cautious. He wasn’t the entire cause like you were suggesting, it was a direction they were already going in. Toning down the product was already happening before Benoit snapped.




    You were talking about a belt that pleases everyone, not a product everyone can watch. Everyone still watches no matter what era it is, the WWE just has a lot of things geared toward kids like in the days of Hogan. I also don’t understand how this era strays the lines of reality more than ever. There have been plenty of those moments since before Punk started dropping pipe bombs. Remember Austin\Pillman? Also those 2 guys that ran around back then, ah- what’s their names? Oh yeah. DX.

    The ‘winged eagle’ belt appeases anyone that has been a fan since back in the day. Most kids under 16 don’t care about that belt, or even know how great it was- they care about the current belt. That’s what they love and that’s what their parents pay for. This current design is the one kids dream of winning when they imagine being a WWE Superstar.




    I responded because you said Austin’s belt sold more or was more popular than the Big Eagle belt- at the time. Back then and to this day, it was not more popular. It was shown on TV, people liked it, it hung around for a storyline and sold some units. Overall at that time, the Big Eagle belt stayed because it was more popular than Austin's belt.




    As I stated before, people will always complain about changing something. Each generation wants its belt back. Always have. There are fans from before WWE began that still prefer the belts from back in the days when territories ruled the world. Just because fans want another belt brought back or a design changed doesn’t mean it’s gonna happen. Hell, there were small groups fanboys that want Zach Ryder’s belt recognized. People always want to change something. If the belt was going to be changed, it would have happened by now. If it does, it’s when Vince feels the time is right, not the IWC or a few wrestlers. He runs the show.




    The topic was merchandise revenue, not how much they made as an entire company. We were talking about merch. This year they made roughly 94 mil, back then it was hovering around 80 mil.




    You mean when the locker-room rushed the ring? If you remember, as soon as that segment was done and Cena showed back up on camera, they did wipe him up and tended to the cut. He wasn’t bleeding all over like originally, it was cleaner and swollen.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cySReZxI6Vs&feature=relmfu

    Different than a match stoppage. You are using a very small amount of blood to imply a drastic change in direction. They are shaking things up ,but not letting things go crazy like some imply. OMGATTITUDEISBACK!! BROCKHITCENAHEISBLEEDING!!! PUNKSAIDSONOFABITCHMTFO!!!! Give me a break. It’s good TV but not a drastic change in direction.




    Yeah, it is a symbol of a champion, but also represents the era. You see the belt and it brings memories from when it was defended. Big gold belt reminds us of a different time, just like the Undisputed belt, just like the current belt. Just because Barney wears that belt in particular doesn’t mean this belt needs to change.

    In 15 years, I bet someone will wear this belt on a TV show as well. It’s what kids today are growing up with in their mind as ‘the’ championship. We are still in the PG era. Will that change? Yes it always does. Is that necessarily happening now, I don’t think so. Only thing that does show is that the IWC seems to be more vocal\split than ever. More of the younger kids flood the forums every day. What the older fans think is cool, most younger fans don’t get or think is lame. They like the current belt, most older fans hate it. Hell, there are even a lot of people who could care less what it looks like and wish people would stop bitching about changing it.




    ” When Steve Austin was presented the new Big Eagle, it had the oldschool style WWF block logos and was on a dark blue strap. Kane held this belt also, albeit for only 24 hours. While in action in the ring, the belt hit Austin under the chin and cut his face, he (without the knowledge of Vince and the WWF) contacted J Mar and asked him to create a new belt for him, incorporated skulls and rattle snakes. J-Mar created the ‘Smoking Skull’ belt, of which two were made: A gold one and a silver one.Austin took the gold one to the next RAW without Vince knowing and used it as the WWF title belt, Vince was NOT happy and demanded Austin revert back to the Big Eagle. Austin did, but the WWF were inundated with fan requests to bring back the Smoking Skull belt, Vince backed down and the Smoking Skull belt returned to TV and was even the focal point of a storyline involving Vince and Austin.”

    http://www.wrestling101.com/home/2007/09/wwe-title-belts-a-guide-to-the-gold/

    Vince didnt know at first, it worked and they ran with it.

    As far as the feud, yes I was wrong Austin won and went to feud with Taker. Apologies. The Big Eagle belt wasn’t brought back till Rock won later on.




    Never compared. Used that as example to what happens when wrestlers want custom belts. Also you say the belt should complement the brand, not a wrestler?

    ….I think you should make up your mind.



    …again make up your mind


    You say it should be changed because the era is over. Well Miz\Punk are part of this era, both dislike the look and are the exact opposite of Cena. So why then is the reason the belt hasn’t changed? Seems to me that it’s not going to happen anytime soon. In the past year they have had chances to do it that would have made sense. It hasn’t happened. Sounds to me that the belt represents today’s product just fine since they passed up changing it multiple times.


    ----

    Now regarding the idea of unification- It was not about design. It was said in regard to giving the title more meaning. I broke down the ideas on why people dislike the design and besides Cena, weight and the ‘bling’ factor; it was a possibility that maybe people don’t respect it as much. I referenced how things were similar as far as the landscape(marketing focus, smaller roster, etc) in the Hogan era and how because it was the only major belt, it had more meaning and is regarded highly. Maybe if the current belt was respected more, maybe people wouldn’t bitch as much. It might be a shot in the dark, but it also might work. It is just an idea and a way that tries to come at the issue from a different angle.




    Hell, I’m sure that when they first brought out the Big Gold belt people were pissed because of how it looked and they thought NWA should go back to the old title. The NWA had a very prestigious belt.

    [​IMG]

    Then a belt was made for Flair deemed 'the Big Gold belt' in 1985.

    [​IMG]

    It is bulky, and way flashier than the belt that came before it. Now it is respected and loved. Sound similar to the Cena situation regarding the current belt? Yeah, it is almost the exact same scenario. Belt made for a guy, bulky\flashy, people had a mixed reaction and yet the belt stayed anyway.


    The belt is what it is. Like it or hate it, nobody will change it except Vince. It was created for a purpose and was decided to be used permanently despite fan reaction or opinion of employees. If you don’t like it, don’t buy one. If you want it changed, keep complaining- it hasn’t changed anything but if it makes you feel better go for it. If anything changes soon, it might be making it lighter or a logo change, but the belt design as a whole doesn’t seem to be going anywhere. It has been around 7 years and if Vince hasn’t changed it by now, I doubt he will soon. Quite possibly he is waiting for a huge moment, bigger than just one wrestler, fan opinion or a title change. Something that is monumental that will truly mark the occasion. Maybe he is waiting for, say, WM 30?....
     
    #9
  10. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Not once did you give the actual merchandise revenue of the Spinner title belt, all you did was give overall merchandise numbers. Since you are actually DEFENDING that side show me those numbers. Initially I said you were giving full merchandise numbers and not actual sales from the spinner belt. All I did was prove that merchandise sales dropped 2.6 million from December 2010 to December 2011.

    It started toning down back in '01-'02 when they realized that they couldn't keep taking the risks physically like they did in the attitude era. How from the year 2002 - 2007 (before the Benoit incident) were things edgier? The PG era did in fact come as a result of the Benoit incident.

    Those were edgy storylines but none of them were reality based like CM Punk having a shoot on what he thinks of the company in general. Austin and Pillman were best friends so I don't think Pillman was really so pissed at Austin he legitimately pulled a gun on him and tried to kill him. When I say reality based I mean they are knocking down the 4th wall, much like TMNT did back in the 80's. They are being more self aware these days.

    If you make a new belt in 6 months they will love that one too, that's how it works. They could make a title belt that says "I'm Champion YAY!" on it and kids would buy it because of how impressionable they are.


    It had nothing to do with being more popular it had to do with the fact that it literally had Stone Colds logo on the belt, therefore its his belt, that's why only Stone Cold defended the belt. It would be like Randy Savage defending a belt that says "Hulk Rules" on it, how much sense would that make?

    This isn't an argument on if its gonna happen, its an argument on if it SHOULD happen. Saying "well its Vince's decision" isn't an argument, its the decision of one person. Vince isn't always right believe it or not. Of course people bitch, that's why forums like Wrestlezone exist. I'm not arguing whether or not the belt design WILL change, I'm arguing that it should change. If Vince was always right there never would have been an Attitude era, the era which saved his business.


    The topic is if the belt design should change. So now I'm gonna pull a "nightmare" and ask for the proof. While you are at it show me the belt sales as well since you are so confident they sell well. You may be right about merchandise as a whole but you have yet to give 1 piece of evidence on how the belts themselves actually sell. For all I know 93.8 million of that merchandise revenue is from shirts, caps, ect.

    He wasn't bleeding all over but when he was in John Laurinaitis' office he was still visibly bleeding in his office. They didn't cover it up at all, the WANTED people to know what happened. I'm not even saying its a drastic change in direction, I never said the Attitude era is coming back, NOT ONCE did I say that. I said they are starting to appease the older audience again while still retaining the kids as well because you can have both. Things can be a bit edgier but being edgier and saying the Attitude era is coming back are 2 entirely different things.



    The big gold belt reminds of a different time AND today since its still being used and at this point will probably be used longer than ANY title in the history of the WWE. Since '02 when it came in not 1 design change was made and I've heard very few, if any complaints from the fans or employees alike that it needs to change, the same however can't be said for the current WWE title.

    And you are right, Barney wearing it doesn't mean it needs to change but it shows that it has certain appeal, especially if they use the winged eagle belt on a popular show as well as using it on Hulk Hogan's XBOX Kinect game commercial. The design is timeless unlike the current WWE title.


    That's very true that some think its no big deal but there are plenty of people who think it is a big deal. The belt is supposed to represent being the best in the company, being #1 and its totally understandable that people get upset when it looks like a toy, not like a championship a 30 year old man would be proud holding. I also disagree that the change is coming. WWE.com has done features recently about how they feel the belt needs to change. The bleacher report and 3 out of the last 4 WWE champions feel the change needs to happen.

    Even though I never liked the look of the belt I was satisfied with it when it came out for 2 reasons:

    1) It fit John Cena's character
    2) It fit in nicely with Pop culture at the time

    Since then John Cena has changed and so has pop culture in general. The current title belt doesn't really have appeal to anything in general anymore, the belt is dated and because of its design has an expiration date. With the way John Cena is, pop culture is and the current landscape of the WWE is I would say the current design has passed that expiration date and its time for a change.


    Well I'll give you the fact that Austin created the smoking skull belt, I did not know that. Still doesn't mean the current WWE title shouldn't change.



    We all make mistakes, take a look at my last comment as an example.

    Yes the brand should compliment the brand or company, not the wrestler itself. For example Stone Cold used the Smoking Skull belt in the years 98 and 99 and it fit his character. Even with that belt they still had the big eagle attitude belt that everyone else held. Mankind, HHH, The Rock, The Undertaker all used the attitude era belt and Austin had his own made for himself, much like the current WWE title was made for 1 person and that's John Cena. Check out my initial post of when he unveiled it as proof.

    I did make up my mind. Once again I said it looked terrible but fit with the era it was created in so I was satisfied. I do think it looks terrible but at one point that look was in. The look is no longer in therefore it needs to change.

    Once again it doesn't matter if it hasn't changed, that's not what we are debating about. For the first 3 years of the belts existence John Cena was the perennial WWE champion, that isn't the case anymore. It fit the era before, it doesn't fit now. Vince has often been criticized by the likes of Shawn Michaels and HHH to be out of touch with the times. Just because Vince is "out of touch" with today and hasn't changed anything doesn't mean he shouldn't change. Change is inevitable and its now time for a change.


    I agree that a unification would be great. I'm all for that. I think the belt isn't as respected doesn't have to do with the look or anything else that its been used as a prop. Now if they do a unification and unify both titles it makes all the sense in the world to come up with a brand new design, even bring back the old Undisputed belt and start again, much like they did with the IC title and Cody Rhodes.


    Any belt is flashier than the old NWA belt. The big gold belt may have looked flashier but it still looked like a title belt, not a toy. It still looked prestigious and had a look of something that a champion would be proud to wear around his waist.

    Once again it being Vince's decision and whether or not it should change are 2 entirely different things. We aren't arguing if it will change we are arguing that it should change. Plenty of WWE personnel think it should change, many fans think it should change, new sites think it should change, a lot of people think it should change and feel its just as dated as I do. Saying "its Vince's decision, deal with it" is like being a Jewish person in the 30's saying "well Hitler is killing all of us, its not right but oh well, he is the boss I guess we should just deal with it". The person in charge isn't always right, it may be his company but it doesn't mean every decision he makes is a good decision. This is the same guy who thinks Benoit's brain damage was a farce after all and feels a bunch of doctors made the brain trauma up.
     
    #10
  11. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    We are getting a bit off topic splitting hairs about certain things. I mentioned merch sales because belt sales represent a part of that. You mentioned the numbers declined recently and implied it was because of the belt. I beg to differ. Either way, that number is the closest I can find available. Without calling Titan Tower we might not know exact numbered breakdowns, I dont think they will tell us if we call though. So lets move on.




    It was made for Cena, much like the Smoking Skull belt was meant for SCSA. Difference is, this belt has remained for 7 years and is actively worn by all champs. SCSA's belt was not. Well, actually Rock and Mankind also held that belt, albeit for a breif time.

    So why is it that they have kept this design around but not other belts made to compliment wrestlers? Do you think they 'forgot' to change the belt since Cena lost it? Maybe its because it doesnt need a change. Maybe there isnt anything wrong with the design. Maybe people bitch too much and Vince keeps it to spite them. Who knows. It is still the same damn belt despite what others think about its design.





    Of course he wasnt. The point is that the incident blurred the lines of reality. Many people have done things like that. At some point everyone pulls back the curtain or winks at the camera, etc. Hell SCSA blatantly kicked Vince in the nuts week after week. Punk's shoot happened at a great time and shook things up, he is this era's SCSA. It still will remain to be seen if he has as big of an impact as Austin had. Thats a different argument for a different time.

    Is it a reason for the WWE to change the title? Guess not, cuz its still here. If Punk truly is here to usher in a new era, wouldnt they have re-designed the belt when he came back? After the feud with Cena was over, wouldnt they have changed it then? It didnt change, It dosent need to change. Obviously Vince and others in the company agree.




    We regard the belt in that way now because of the history and prestige behind it that the belt has gained through the years. At first, not so much. It was a drastic, flashy, bulky change. To some wrestlers back in the day, I bet they thought of the design as a joke. Something that was a carnival prize or a glorified rodeo belt buckle(it kind of was), rather than a belt the Heavyweight Champion would wear.

    Im sure if the internet forums were around back then, the reaction would be split much like it is now. The NWA belt was\is held sacred to many, including the greatest ever to step in the ring. Im sure people that hold that belt so sacred were disgusted at first when the big gold belt was brought in. Now it is looked upon as a great belt. So when all these younger fans grow up, I bet they will look upon this current design in the same way. For all we know, in 10-15 years, this design might still be around. Just because some want change, doesnt mean it will happen.



    Back to the real topic. Why does the belt need to change? Because people say so? Because some people think it looks ******ed? Because everything changes eventually?


    Well there are a shitload of people who do like it. They wear replicas at shows, celebrities wear the replicas at parties\celebrations and kids run around the backyard with a belt they made of cardboard to look like the title. The fact it hasnt changed says something. A change comes at the right time when it is needed. WWE has had plenty of time and great chances to bring in a new design, but havent done it. For every person you say hates the design, there are others who disagree.


    If this belt is so heavy and ugly, why havent they changed it? Because it dosent need to be changed.


    If it is hated so much, why do fans carry it around shows and celebrities are seen taking pictures with it? Because people like it. Enough people to warrant Vince keeping it as the active belt.


    The design obviously isnt as big of an issue that people make it out to be. If the belt needed a change, it would have been done. Opportunity has been presented numerous times since 2005. The fact it hasnt speaks volumes. For all the reasons you give for change, I will hold up a picture of the belt. The same 'ugly' belt that 'everyone' hates, yet a design that remains as the current WWE Championship.
     
    #11
  12. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    That's probably a good idea. Unless we can actually get the number of belts that were actually sold there's no way to determine the true merchandise sales of that item. So best way to go is to consider this point moot and move on.

    Well Mankind held the belt at Summerslam '99 when he won it from Austin and The Rock stole the belt so although he used it, it was more to help push their match from Wrestlemania 15 to Backlash but I digress.

    Even if the belt was made for Cena I think the reason they kept it around was because it did fit with the times and unlike Stone Cold's belt it didn't have John Cena's logo printed all over it. I think when they kept it around it made sense mostly because of the time frame it was around. Like I said before in '05-'06 spinning rims and wearing lots of bling was in at the time. Times have moved on since then. Time have changed from this:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This isn't in anymore and is no longer relevant in pop culture. You walk into a bar these days people don't look nearly as flashy, they look a little more grounded, even those douchebags wearing Ed Hardy.

    Things have changed and its time to move on.



    In 2006-2007 there wasn't anything wrong with the design. You also got to realize times have changed since then. Read this:

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/245901-wwecom-wants-re-design-of-belt-original-del-rio-title-plans

    This is from CM Punk, the current WWE champion.

    http://www.wrestlingnewsworld.com/j...mes-future-stars-his-one-dream-opponent-more/

    This is from John Cena, the face of the WWE and the originator of the belt.

    Both of these have happened within the last 3-4 months, John's comments were on March 22, 2012 less than a month ago. Vince is a stubborn person but if someone is in their ear enough he will listen. Take HHH and HBK for example. They are a big reason for the Attitude Era constantly in Vince's ear telling him change needs to be made. For a long time Vince didn't listen but eventually when he realized times were changing he embraced it. We now have the 2 top stars in Vinces ear telling him change needs to be made and if they are persistent enough it will happen.

    I'm trying to say that change is on the horizon and is knocking at the door. Often new belt designs are made with the era change. Take the Attitude era belt for example. That changed the day after Wrestlemania 14, AKA the dawning of a new era.

    Once again just recently the 2 top stars are in Vince's ear telling him that change needs to be made. Even his son in law has gone on record saying the belt needs to change. Hell as you will see at this link there are fan sites and petitions being made dedicated to changing the WWE belt design. How often have you seen that with other championship belts namely the big gold belt you said people didn't like when it first came out?

    http://act.ly/petitions/6563/map

    Mostly because the belt is out dated and doesn't fit with the current landscape of WWE, pop culture, John Cena, or anything in general that has to do with wrestling or sports entertainment. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

    Show me a petition of people who think the belt should stay the same? For every one person who likes the belt I will show you 5 who think it should change.

    Because Vince is stubborn. Eventually he will see how things are in this day and age and make that change. It takes him a while to do so but he always ends up doing it.

    Because its the mark of a champion. Everyone wants to strive for excellence, to be a champion therefore they like to hold up title belts. If someone gave me a WWE title and took my picture I wouldn't say no but if they had the big gold belt as an alternative I would go for that as well. Doesn't mean I like the belt design. My friend has a UFC replica belt at his house, its horrendously looking but I'll still have my picture taken with it because its a title belt, no more, no less. I've even worn it a whole party for the fuck of it.

    More now then ever though is it time to change it. Like I said before the belt fit in better with society and culture back when it was made, even if it looked ugly it still fit. The belt simply doesn't fit anymore, not in pop culture or anything of that sort. All you are saying is "well it hasn't changed so it must be good". Just because something doesn't change means it should have changed. If that was true the AWA would still be in business but why isn't the AWA in business? Because it didn't change with the times and stayed with what worked in the past for far too long. They didn't want to embrace change therefore they eventually perished. Change is apart of life, if you don't embrace it once in a while you will get left behind.
     
    #12
  13. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Cena also pointed out:

    "Cena says that the current “Spinner” WWE Title design is the most requested and sold belt in WWE history."

    The most requested\sold in history. (I guess he would know the numbers more than we would.... damn insider info.) That means it is popular among a great many people. Having claim to that is huge. If it is so ugly and hated, how can it also be the most requested? That means it is popular. More popular in fact than any other belt WWE has ever used. That means kids save their allowance and buy the belt. Adult fans spend hard earned paychecks to buy the belt. Friends\family give it as a gift for birthdays and Christmas. See a pattern?



    Despite what many think, it isnt too far behind the times. Is the 'bling' factor less prominent as years past? Slightly, depending on the area you live. There are still plenty of people driving around with rims and large shiny necklaces. Hip Hop culture may have been a fad for some, but for many it is a lifestyle. I dont get the fashion style, but a great many people do.


    I get the point about pop culture. Things come and go quickly, usually in a few months. Unfortunately this isnt the case. It has been 7 years since the debut. By your account the lifespan for the design to have run its course was 2 years. (2005-2007 you say) Well, that means by some horrible pop culture miscalculation, a great many people across the world are 5 years behind.


    OPINION: The belt is ugly, behind the times and un-popular.

    FACT: The belt is still to this day purchased, given as gifts and worn around. From celebrities, to sports icons, adult fans and right down to the little kids in the arena- the belt is popular.


    Some people relevant in todays culture disagree with your opinion.

    Rapper Lil Wayne:
    [​IMG]

    Ryan Seacrest:
    [​IMG]


    2 complete opposites in todays culture. 2 people who are very popular in thier own circles of fame. Now I hate Seacrest (he is small and midgets scare me), but try telling Weezy that his fashion\culture is out dated or lame. A shitload of people will disagree with you.


    Nascar driver Kyle Busch
    [​IMG]


    Nascar is a huge part of american culture. Many fans are also fans of WWE. Reason he has this belt instead of another? Because he likes this one. He has worn this to several places, so it wasnt just a photo op situation.


    Jets owner Woody Johnson; Giants owner John Mara:
    [​IMG]


    Now you can call this a photo op. What is important about this is that the WWE chose that design to present. Now you can say its because the other 'more famous' designs arent currently used, that may be. So why then did they not use the World Title? You know the one everyone loves more? It wasnt Cena that handed off the belts, not even the current champ CM Punk; but it was HHH. He loves the Big Gold belt,not the Spinner. WWE even got mainstream exposure from Rodgers using the Big Gold belt during the Superbowl. That seems like a better idea to use, but they went with the WWE title instead. Was it smart marketing or dumb luck? I think because it is the flashy title that grabs your attention.



    As far as the opinion that it is ugly and so many people want a change:

    That seems to come primarily from older fans. Some that like Cena, but mostly those who hate him. They scream\petition to have the old belts back or at very least an updated design. It usually goes like this....

    Guy #1: "I hate that belt. It looks like trash. Who would want that crap? Cena sucks!"
    Guy #2: "Yeah! Bring back the big eagle belt! Screw PG! ATTITUDE ERA!!"
    Guy #3: "Its actually not that bad, I bought one for me and my son. Quit complaining."
    Guy #1: "You suck. Go away no one cares."
    Guy #2: "Tell 'Em Steve-Dave!"


    Point being that there is always someone to counterbalance a negative. If you dont like the belt, who cares? Its your choice. Buy one or dont. Problem is, the belt has quite a few fans. It is more popular than people give it credit for. Most people just dont respond to those who hate the belt because they dont care. They buy them and gladly cheer at live shows just like others who dont buy one. Some people just take it too far and act like it is some huge travesty it exists.


    The only other reason I see given is that "Vince is behind the times". Well he may be, but he is a smart business man. The popularity of the belt coupled with the fact it makes money is good reason for him to keep it around. He cant be too far behind what fans think is popular, because he is still in business. He can be hit and miss, but this belt is more hit. How? Because it was a one-off idea that became a mainstay. 7 years is a long time for something that apparently sucks so bad. It is popular. It may not be with everyone, but what is? No one will always be happy.


    If they do decide to change it, people will still like this design and others will like the new design. Here is the problem I see. If it does change, people will still bitch and whine. Here is the bigger issue I have with a change like this. Look at the last few belts they came up with.

    [​IMG]

    This belt was thought of as a tragedy against ECW. People bitched it was too big, hated the silver color and were pissed they stopped using the other belt. Went over like a box of rocks with fans.

    [​IMG]

    Hell, I dont even have to explain this do I? Moving on...

    [​IMG]

    Then there is this. The belts that look like a huge penny. Strange color choice indeed. Now it isnt 'bling', but it is bland. The other tag belt designs before this one were great. This design is trash. Of all the belts, these remind me of plastic toys from the dollar store. A bargain from the day after Halloween sale for 80% off. It had fans everywhere scratching their heads, saying "WTF?".


    Now if the WWE decides to change the design of the WWE title, what makes you think it would be a good change? Their recent track record is quite trash. What would everyone do if it came out worse than the current design? Yup. People would complain and petition yet again.


    No matter who you are, you have an opinion. Cena, Vince, Lil Wayne, Little Jimmy, Your grandma; all have likes and dislikes. Doesnt mean something has to change because a few opinions differ. We are talking about a belt. A belt in professional wrestling. We arent talking about a major historical event (like the Holocaust reference you made); This isnt the presidential election or even a vote for your favorite Mountain Dew flavor. Ultimately Vince calls the shots. The opinions of few do not outweigh the popular vote. There are obviously plenty of folks who like the belt just fine. The belt was created and has stayed for 7 years. Not because of some conspiracy or because Vince is out of touch. Maybe, just maybe, it is because the belt is actually more popular with people than you think....
     
    #13
  14. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    I said it was dated NOT hated. Secondly it's been around for over 7 years so I certainly hope it has been the most sold belt if its been around for that long. They are in their merchandise era because that's how they stay afloat, merchandise is where they make there money because ratings and buyrates aren't as good as they used to be so they need to shell out as much merchandise as possible, not to mention its a million times easier to find and buy replica belts because of this. In the 90's buying a replica belt wasn't exactly an easy task.

    Well all I can say is I see the bling and spinning tires a lot less than usual. There was a time where everyone was souping up there video's and wearing bling. Sure, it's still around but not to the extent it used to be. People still wear tear away pant's too doesn't mean its relevant in pop culture today. I see people wearing Reebok Pumps as shoes, are those relevant?

    SIDE NOTE: I would love a pair of Reebok Pumps but I digress.

    I think I've proven this as fact.

    Still purchased but what are the sales numbers to support how much it has been purchased? Once again that can't be proven. Also I don't think its fact the belt is CURRENTLY popular.

    This was taken the night of Wrestlemania IN Miami. Sounds more like a publicity stunt than anything.

    http://www.inflexwetrust.com/2012/0...s-with-the-wwe-championship-belt-in-the-club/


    This was straight up a publicity stunt. Ryan Seacrest got this from The Rock 17 days before Wrestlemania 28 in an interview. This was done to help sell more PPV buys nothing more.

    http://ryanseacrest.com/2012/03/15/...-ryan-seacrest-a-wwe-championship-belt-audio/

    Once again these were both publicity stunts. Lil Wayne got the title belt at Wrestlemania and went to an afterparty in Miami. Since over 78,000 people just went to the event its a good way to get publicity. Ryan Seacrest was straight up a publicity stunt done for Wrestlemania 28.

    This was taken in November 2009, not very relevant 2 1/2 years later.

    http://www.prowrestling.net/artman/publish/WWE/article1008718.shtml

    Publicity stunt AGAIN for Wrestlmania 28 as these were given as gifts by HHH. Not to mention that Wrestlemania 29 is being held in MetLife stadium where the Giants and Jets play football.

    http://twicsy.com/i/9zdPab

    So we got 4 people who got them as presents from WWE employees and one was 2 1/2 years ago. So apparently these people aren't actually spending their money to buy these. Lil' Wayne may be the exception but its a great publicity stunt especially in Miami the night of Wrestlemania 28.

    Well the WWE title is their #1 title and has been their #1 title since Nature Boy Buddy Rogers, that's probably a good reason why. The World Title has always been the secondary title in the WWE because it wasn't created by them. Of course you want to show your #1 title most, it has nothing to do with the design.

    I certainly don't think is a travesty the title exists. I've said throughout this debate even though I think its ugly I understood why that design was chosen when it was made. Once again though its time for a change. I understand the title was a huge merchandise mover but in all fairness that has more to do with the era than anything else. When I was a kid I wanted nothing more than to have a "winged eagle belt" but I never got it. It had nothing to do with the price it was simply because it was so hard to buy replica belts in that era even though getting other merchandise like Bret Hart sunglasses and Undertaker shirts were easy to find. I see spinner belts sold at Toys R Us but when I was a kid they weren't. They shell out a lot of belts and merchandise today yes but that's because its their #1 source of revenue. Back in the Attitude era they sold 80 million in merchandise but the merchandise was cheaper and they made most of their money off PPV buys and sponsors, now they don't make nearly as much as before. There is a reason why in 2000 Vince was a billionaire (even though he lost 30 million on the XFL) and now he is in the low hundred millions. WWE doesn't make half the money it used to.

    Vince is a smart business man sure but it takes him a while to make the change as its a slow, gradual process. I'm not saying he's 10 years behind the times but he's a few years behind no question about that. That's how it works in business though especially with a business as massive as the WWE. Change cannot be made overnight because if its not economically feasible. But its been a few years and you can tell WWE has been experimenting with things over the past few years. It doesn't matter much anyways Vince is getting old and you can tell he's getting ready to hand the company over to Steph and Triple H.


    These are secondary belts in divisions and brands Vince doesn't care about. He can't even be bothered to give any of these title a match at Wrestlemania. The tag team division and diva's division is "just there" and has no relevancy in WWE today, divas and tag matches are just there to kill time and be filler. ECW was never treated with respect and doesn't exist anymore. I'm sure Vince and company would put more effort into the WWE title design as they actually care about what happens in that division since its the main eventers who wrestle for that title so when the design does happen I'm sure it won't be a giant penny because its something the WWE actually cares about.

    There is a lot more than just "a few different opinions". I also thinks its a lot more when your top stars are vocal about changing the design of the WWE title when if anything they should be selling how great the belt is as they should be praising everything WWE does, its smart business. I'm also gonna point out that I found literally hundreds of petitions on the internet for the WWE belt design to change yet I couldn't find one petition stating how it should stay the same, so much for the current design at this point in time being the popular vote. So we got the majority of the fans and top stars in the WWE who want the design changed.

    Although Vince is out of touch (hes over 60 how in touch could he be?) he is a smart business man and I have the upmost confidence he will realize this fact and have the change happen. For all we know he already wants it changed but especially in a publicly traded company it takes forever to make even the slightest change. I work for a publicly traded company and even though change is on the horizon and is in motion it often takes 2-3 years to put it in place because you got to please a shit load of people.
     
    #14
  15. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    You might not say hated, but the people you reference sure do. The fact that every other belt is available now(including the past designs), yet the current design is the top seller says something. That means it sells better than the World title as well. Both belts are currently used; one is beloved; one is ‘dated\ugly’. Which one is apparently the #1 seller ever…. the WWE title; this current design.




    So if all the designs are more readily available now as opposed to back then, why do the more ‘popular and eye-pleasing’ belts from then not hold the #1 spot. People don’t just buy them because it is the current design. They buy them because it looks cool to them. They like it. Would you buy a watch you like or one that you think is ugly but it is currently used by someone famous? You would buy the one that you like. Why? Because you have a choice in your purchase. The people that buy the belts like the design. For all the people that cry out for a design change, there must be at least an equal amount of those who like it the way it is. Otherwise why would it still be here and sell the way it does. I highly doubt people pay hard earned cash just to have a belt they think is ugly and run around mocking how terrible it looks. When I buy something it is because I like it and am willing to part with my paycheck for it. So does everyone else I bet.


    ---
    Now with Seacrest, I could give you that one. But once again, it is that design that was chosen. Rock could have just as easily sent replicas of a title he won. The press conference for WM 29, I might give you that as well; but pose the same question. Why that one? At very least you think it would have been one WWE and one World title. Hell, like I said- the Big Gold belt gained the NFL\WWE some cross promotion due to its appearance at the Superbowl. Marketing stance says go with that one instead of the one people think is so ugly.


    The situation with Lil Wayne is different. Just because it was in Miami at the time means nothing. I didn’t see any WWE employees running around trying to hand off the title for a photo op. Wayne was there because he is a fan; a fan who likes that belt. He wasn’t given the belt to show off for publicity. Kyle Busch has taken several pictures with the title. (2 I showed in this thread already) He again is a fan. Enough of a fan to buy a belt with his name on it. Doesn’t matter when any of those pics were taken; 5 years ago or 5 days ago- the belt is popular with fans\celebrities.


    ---

    Despite how the subdivisions of his talent are used, the fact is they are still part of his company. Image is everything to McMahon. The belts\champions are used as ambassadors for the WWE and represent the image of the company wherever they go. From the divas to the Miz, it all counts. Vince and creative might put more into one than the other storyline wise, but it still is one company. He approved of those designs. If he thought a design was a bad idea, no matter the rank of importance on the roster, he would have scrapped them. That includes the current WWE title design. Be careful what you wish for, if he does make a change- it might be for the worse.




    As do I. Certain things do take time when attempting change in a corporation. Something like title design does not. Those decisions apply when discussing decisions in hiring\firing top level executives, location of offices or major personnel issues. This is about a belt that design represents the champion of the WWE. It can be compared to the nameplate on your boss’s door. It is a big deal to get that nameplate, people work hard to move up and see their name on that big office door. Just like talent aspires to get the title. It doesn’t take a large amount of time to change. Now the belt takes time to create and design, but not 7 years. If the stock holders, owners or executives find a problem with something small scale as this, it does not take long to change.


    ---
    I don’t dispute that there are people who dislike the belt. I just don’t think it needs to change. People are fickle and vocal, especially in the wrestling world. If something stays despite some disliking it, that means there is good reason not to change said product. Many people think the Saw franchise was terrible after the first 2, yet despite the negative reaction- they kept them coming. The reason? Enough people kept buying tickets\DVD’s. The positive impact in keeping something around outweighed the negative opinions.
     
    #15
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  16. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    The vast majority of people who buy it are kids or adults buying it for their kids. Take my Aaron Rogers picture for example, the Green Bay Packers actually paid money to have the world title design as a gift for the MVP of the team, same with the people of HIMYM paying for the Winged Eagle belt to use in the show, so adults will pay money to wear the winged eagle and world title belt respectively.

    With kids being the vast majority of the sales they only really know the current design of the WWE title. Since that's the one they grew up with that's the one they prefer because their favorite wrestlers wore that belt, much like my favorite wrestlers wore the winged eagle belt (like Hogan, Savage and Bret Hart). If you change the design then their favorite wrestlers will end up wearing that one too, then the changed design will be a best seller as well.

    You have to realize, the only reason its the top selling belt of all time is because of 2 reasons:

    1) The vast majority of merchandise sales is for kids and all they know is the current design
    2) 20 years ago when the winged eagle and attitude era belts were being used it was very difficult to obtain them. It only became easier on the tail end of the Attitude era belt. It's not like today where it's easy as pie to obtain a replica belt and not spend ridiculous amounts of money on them because they come in different sizes for different ages.

    You do have a choice in your purchase but if you are a kid and the current design is all you know then that's the one you prefer. If John Cena or CM Punk starts wearing a new belt they will want that one too, that's how kids are.

    Because its the current design. If you are the WWE you want to show off what's current, not what's the past. It would be like getting Bruno Sammartino to promote Wrestlemania 28 for you. Sure he was a big name in the WWE but your average kid doesn't know about Bruno or simply doesn't care and 90% of the current fans have no recollection of Bruno because it was before its time. The Rock was in the main event so you want him to be the one promoting it, same with the likes of HHH, John Cena and CM Punk. You don't call Austin and Hogan to promote it because although they were huge stars they aren't relevant to the product today.


    It could be worse but it could always be a million times better and could sell a lot more than the current design. You can't stay in the past forever because it's safe. If you don't progress and don't make changes eventually you no longer become relevant, slowly but surely get forgotten and then you won't be in business anymore. Unfortunately that's how it works in business, to stay alive you have to constantly evolve. This is a good reason why the PG era is a good idea because its the evolution of the business but just as The Attitude Era came to an end so does the PG era and you have to keep naturally progressing. I don't want them to go back to the Attitude era but a PG-13 era maybe, where its more edgy and adult but at the same time you don't alienate your younger fans would be a great progression for the business.

    A belt design change signifies change, progression and evolution, something every business needs to do and its at a point where it would be beneficial for WWE to take that progression. If you can widen your fan base range and make even more money than just of merchandise and DVD sales.

    Wrestlemania 28 did 1.3 million buys and was the highest grossing wrestlemania of all time. The main event featured The Rock while the #2 match was HHH vs. Undertaker in Hell In A Cell where the #3 match was Punk vs. Jericho. Outside of maybe Cena all of these guys appeal to the older audience and it was done in a way where it was a great balance of young and new alike. Not only did it do great buys, but from my personal standpoint I just named the 3 best matches on the card and as a whole WM28 was pretty damn good and it did it by having some edginess, having some attitude, but at the same time having some PG as well, so it appealed to everyone not just a small group. Why do you think they brought Lesnar back? It certainly wasn't for the little kids.

    No it doesn't take 7 years to get a change but 2 years is about sufficient in a public company. All it takes is for 1 executive who has lots of stroke to say he wants the belt to stay the same and they will do it because they need to make the investors happy as well. I'm not saying this is what's happening but it very well could happen, then you got to convince that particular person that change is the way to go.

    This is a good analogy for a company the size of the WWE. Lets say someone on the 1st floor wants to propose a belt design change. They email an executive and it takes a month or 2 to get to that executive (because they got other stuff more important to do first). Then that executive likes it and sends the request to another executive, and that takes a month because that person's even busier and so on and so forth. As inefficient as that sounds, that's actually a sound analogy on how it works. If its not Vince who wants the design change then it takes a hell of a long time to anything done. At least that's how it works for any publicly traded company I've worked for (and I've worked for quite a few).

    I'm gonna finish this off how I began. The truth is the majority of kids are the ones buying the merchandise and that's all they know. If they know something else they will be inclined to buy that as well because it "in" and its "current". You could have the coolest toy in the world but if something newer is for sale that toy is no longer cool. That's how kids are. Its been that way since I've been a kid and will be that way for years to come. Transformers and GI Joes are awesome toys but try telling an 8 year old today that.
     
    #16
  17. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Ok, this debate is now closed.

    Judges, you may begin.
     
    #17
  18. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    That was a nice job by both of you. Very well done in my opinion.

    Clarity - I'm gonna go with deaner on this one. His opener was great, and very nice spacing throughout. nightmare did a good job too, I just liked deaner's better.

    Point - deanerandterry

    Punctuality - Neither of them were late and I won't penalize nightmare for finishing up early. He was consistently the quicker draw.

    Point - nightmare

    Informative - deaner takes this one. nightmare had nice pictures, nice pictures, and I enjoyed them thoroughly. However, deaner's links and quotes take this for him. Well done.

    Point - deanerandterry

    Persuasion - This was a nice debate. After the opening statements it was very back and forth between the two. Having said that, deaner's opener swayed me to his side from the start. nightmare had his chances going back and forth. A few times I even hopped back on the fence. But the biggest thing that got me on deaner's side was the quote from John Cena saying it should be changed. The post with both Punk and reiterating Cena's statement about it was the dagger.

    Points - deanerandterry

    I thought this was a very, very good debate. A lot closer than the score reflects for me. nightmare did a kick ass job, so I hope you don't get down about the score. Great job to the both of you.

    CH David scores this deanerandterry 4, nightmare 1.
     
    #18
  19. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: nightmare for me had a better layout, and broke his text up well with images.

    Punctuality: nightmare was faster.

    Informative: A very tough one. nightmare did a great job with pictures and the like. deanerandterry did a great job with quotes and links. He also had images so I'm going to give him the point.

    Persuasion: Again, tough, but I felt deanerandterry's argument more and his point (like CH said) about Cena and Punk really stood out as the death knell of this debate. Good work on both sides though.

    FunKay Scores It: deanerandterry: 3, nightmare: 2
     
    #19
  20. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    Wow, that was a long freaking read. I had to stop watching the show I'm watching just so I could concentrate solely on this. Anyways, let's get to the judging.

    Clarity of debate -I liked deaner's posts in here a tiny bit better. Both opening posts were similar and nicely organized, but there was just something about deaner's that I liked a bit more.

    Punctuality - What Funkay and CH said.

    Informative - Both brought in a good amount of info here and used it very nicely. Great job on the link as well deaner, you get the point.

    Persuasion -Like I said, that was a freaking long read. But an enjoyable one to be honest. Honestly, if we still had an "emotional" point then I thought either one of you could get it. You both really wanted to win here and I could. Very impressive debate, but unfortunately I have to award this point to just one person. It was very close, but ultimately I thought deaner's arguments were more convincing and he did a great job in his rebuttals.

    Deaner: 4 points, Nightmare: 1 point.
     
    #20
  21. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Even if nightmare gets a perfect score from Nate, he cannot win this bracket. Therefore, deanandterry has clinched his defeat over nightmare by a score of 11-4. He will move onto Loser's bracket #24.

    Unfortunately, nightmare, you have been eliminated from this year's tournament. Thank you for your efforts.
     
    #21
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