Long-Time Fan Perspective

[TWJC: The Beginning]

-If I thought I knew everything I would be working for a wrestling promotion
-Not every wrestler wants to work for WWE and only elitists think that
-VKM is such a genius he can't even run a restaurant or a casino right
-VKM is so smart he went from averaging over 1 bill in GP to barely getting to 600 mill
-WWE and UFC are going in opposite directions since 2002
-No other sport has gained more fans since 2002 than UFC
-No other entertainment company since 2002 has lost more in profits and in fanbase
-WWE's bottom line is so bad every major investment firm over the last three years has stayed away from WWE because Goldman Sachs was quoted to saying if WWE cotinues their same expenditures within the next five years along with adding a network would put WWE near Chapter 11 and out of the NYSE

1. Absolutes are always bad. Most wrestlers want to work for the wwe, that's not an exaggeration.
2. Are we debating how good at casinos and restaurants he is? If not, that's irrelevant.
3. Anytime you judge a company from its peak to its current state in a completely different economic and market landscape your are going to see a difference.
4. Lol awesome, you're a guy who puts UFC and WWE in the same group
5. Proof? Also, is this absolute fans or percentage? Who's the source?
6. That's simply not true. At least not if you use relative metrics because entertainment companies die all the time. This is either creative statistics, made up, or hyperbole.
7. Because investment gurus are always right *looks at late 2008*. Also, Vince took the WWE public for business reasons, not for other people to get rich off. WWE has fluctuated ever since it went public. Like most companies, it dropped and has since kind of bounced. Also, please give me a source and date so I know it's even relevant and you're not just parroting something you heard some pseudo "journalist" say.

As far as CM Punk, like I said. They are equals. Cena is as good as Punk in the ring. You can beat off to MOOVES and WURKRATEZ all you want, but Cena does little things and always tells a great story in the ring. Punk does too. It's interesting. Punks character traits and charisma is a little under rated because it isn't as flashy and is more subtle, Cena's in ring ability is underrated for the same reason.

 

[scomvp316]

-I knew this debate would get both sides of the debate very heated
-I like WWE maybe not love it like I use to but still enjoy the product
-The one area Punk must improve is how he acts towards certain fans
-There is no denying Cena is the perfect choice how you should act when you represent a company
-I don't think Punk could put this company back to what it was like during Attitude but I always cheer for whom I think are the best wrestlers
-Maybe I am one of those fans that are a dying breed that enjoy the action more than the storyline
-I cheer for Punk and Ziggler not to be opposite but because I enjoy their wrestling abilities
-I respect VKM but disagree with some of his ideaology
-VKM is my role model when it comes to business
-I don't think I am the smartest person in the room when it comes to biz and wrestling just more passionate about my concepts and opinions
-I have been saying for a few years now if Punk was invested in just as much as Cena I honestly believe Punk's merch sales can reach near 5 mill
-To be honest Punk isn't my fav wrestler but to include wrestlers from all promotions Steen is my fav
-The casino and restaurant mention was to show people that VKM isn't a genius as so many believe he is
-The restaurant closure I am not sure why that happened but I do know the name change was due to an copyright infringement issue
-The casino VKM bought was from Debbie Reynolds a legendary entertainer by some standards and the casino was run into the ground so I am not sure if VKM had run it personally or if he allocated to someone else

 

[scomvp316]

-The debate concerning investment are from articles of Bloomberg News and WSJ websites
-Just as recently as a few months ago alot of entertainment insiders are concerned with the proposed WWE Network based off of VKM's past of other biz ventures and WWE's bottom line
-I understand comparing one company from one decade to another and actually WWE is on pace as of what they were after Hulkamania and going into the Bret Hart and HBK era
-Some of the numbers of WWE I have has in past posts is due to info given to me from some investment firms that I was thinking of buying stock and chose to go in another direction

 

[Papa Pillman]

I know it's not your intention to do so, but you make it hard for other Punk fans, giving us a bad rap.

-Its not '85 anymore and no one is close to Hogan so the love affair of hollywood stars bringing in casual fans just not going to happen

So Hogan was created from Hollywood to draw in non-wrestling fans? See I thought it was vice-versa and most of Hogan's later film roles he got because of his success in the wrestling business.

-Hogan was the exception cause he was something new and fresh

Hogan was new and fresh, huh? That's an interesting take.

and its awful ironic WWE had its greatest success not by the love affair of mainstream media but when the product was very good and a good balance up and down the roster during attitude

The roster was balanced top to bottom during the attitude era, huh? Another interesting take.

-When you have a bare knuckles champion built as being tough and then tapping out within seconds of a hold shows WWE still doesn't get it

Barrett's loss at the Mania pre-show seems highly relevant to this discussion.

-Character development is key to any show and to have VKM's boy Cena as the only character never turning show how little VKM and Cena understand wrestling

So Cena is the only guy who has never turned? And why should he? He is simultaneously the top Face and the top Heel. And he knows how to play both angles at the same time.

-VKM and his loyalists can say all they want its sports entertainment and not wrestling but its wrestling and VKM has always thought wrestling and wrestling fans were never good enough
-Cena is not HH not even close and anyone that thinks well if you turn him heel all of his charity work won't matter is the dumbest ideaology in biz I have ever heard
-When HH turned heel he actually got more charity work as the leader of the NWO than his time with Hulkamania
-In 2001 when SCSA turned heel he was booed just as much as HHH and still generated over 5 mill in merch sales

Is this thread about a Cena heel turn or about comparing Cena and Punk? Both are played out topics, but atleast most people can stay focused on one at a time.

-Any wrestling fan that thinks Punk isn't way better than Cena is either a Cena mark or too far up VKM's kiss my ass club

This is where you really lose it.
You make John Cena out to be Sid Viscious, Lex Luger, or the Great Khali. Yes I prefer Punk to Cena, but that doesn't change the fact that Cena is great at what Cena does. So it is not suprising that some people's taste is to prefer Cena.

Since you wanted to make a UFC analogy in this thread, I'll make one for you. I find Anderson Silva to be very fun and exciting to watch, and I have never missed his fights. I find Georges St. Pierre to be boring to watch, no matter how great he is. I feel Silva is better and more entertaining, yet GSP has a larger fanbase and sells more PPVs. Does that mean that all of the GSP fans are marks with their heads up Dana White's ass? No. It means some people prefer GSP just like some prefer Cena.

-Punk relates more to the average fan of how many people don't kiss their boss's ass and may not get a promotion they deserve because of office or backroom politics

And some of the "average fans" find Punk to be self-righteous and whiny, while they relate more to John Cena's all-American, Hustle, Loyalty, Respect, kid-friendly schtick more than Punk's anti-hero persona. Many of them are the parents who bring their kids to the events and buy them Cena gear because he is their kid's hero.

-It proves with the hype of Rock that SCSA was never VKM"s choice but the fans made SCSA and forced VKM to have Steve as the top guy and arguably the greatest WWE Star of all-time

He pushed Austin as the top-guy when Rock was still a corny, not yet over mid-carder. He personally put Austin over in the anti-authority role by playing Austin's foil himself. To assert that McMahon didn't want Austin in a top role is re-writing history to your benefit.

-After all this time WWE still doesn't know what to do with Punk

They knew enough to keep the top title on him for the longest reign in a quarter century.

-His body of work he shouldn't have to job to an HGH B-List movie star

Criticize the Rock's gas tank and need to be carried at this point all you want, but...

B-List??!?

or a partial crippled washed up near 50 year old who can barely wrestle one match per year

He jobbed to the streak. Just being booked in that match is an ultimate compliment at this point.

-Just because Punk doesn't spend all day in the gym, doesn't look like a A&F model and doesn't play politics he has to be a jobber to guys who can't even lace up his boots

So Punk jobbed to Rock and Taker because of his physique? Then why did Hunter job to Taker two years running? Why did Cena job to Rock last year? Or the Miz the year before for god's sake?

-Punk needs to do more promos like he did leading into MITB 2011

Those promos wouldn't be effective if they were overdone.

-I would like to know from you fans who's the better wrestler Punk or Cena?

I think Punk is better, but it is a matter of style preference and taste. You sell Cena far too short. That is the problem. You said you like Ziggler's ring work, do you feel he is better than Cena too?

 

[MaverickMeyer]

-I knew this debate would get both sides of the debate very heated
-I like WWE maybe not love it like I use to but still enjoy the product
-The one area Punk must improve is how he acts towards certain fans
-There is no denying Cena is the perfect choice how you should act when you represent a company
-I don't think Punk could put this company back to what it was like during Attitude but I always cheer for whom I think are the best wrestlers
-Maybe I am one of those fans that are a dying breed that enjoy the action more than the storyline
-I cheer for Punk and Ziggler not to be opposite but because I enjoy their wrestling abilities
-I respect VKM but disagree with some of his ideaology
-VKM is my role model when it comes to business
-I don't think I am the smartest person in the room when it comes to biz and wrestling just more passionate about my concepts and opinions
-I have been saying for a few years now if Punk was invested in just as much as Cena I honestly believe Punk's merch sales can reach near 5 mill
-To be honest Punk isn't my fav wrestler but to include wrestlers from all promotions Steen is my fav
-The casino and restaurant mention was to show people that VKM isn't a genius as so many believe he is
-The restaurant closure I am not sure why that happened but I do know the name change was due to an copyright infringement issue
-The casino VKM bought was from Debbie Reynolds a legendary entertainer by some standards and the casino was run into the ground so I am not sure if VKM had run it personally or if he allocated to someone else

1. Haha, of course.

2. I see.

3. I agree.

4. Again, I agree.

5. Fair enough.

6. I wouldn't say it's a dying breed. I enjoy plenty of matches just for ring work. However, it's not like people in the Attitude Era were having exceptional technical classics, it was No DQ, hardcore, yet entertaining matches.

7. Fair enough.

8. Again, fair.

I'm going to stop with the point by point and just say this. Passion for wrestling is fantastic. We can all get too passionate. As far as i'm concerned, this debate is over.

 

[Sedated]

@SEDATED

I'd love to debate all day but I'm a busy man so I'll just send this final message so I can draw a line under the situation. I love to be challenged and I acdcept many of the points you made. SO here is my retort.

Right on.

Yes I absolutley am a CM Punk mark, I'm not sure if that was meant as an insult or not. As wrestling fans we are all marks wether we like to admit it or not and I fail to see how having one person you route for above all else is a bad thing.

Ehh, for what it's worth I wasn't calling you a CM Punk mark as a bad thing. As far as if it's a bad thing or not in depends... in general? No. In some situations? It can be a bad thing but that's a discussion for another time

As to CM Punks age there are tons of wrestlers in the history books who didn't get over until a similar age, DDP and Mark Henry are just two examples off the top of my head.

It's not that CM Punk is too old for anything, it's that CM Punk has already started murmuring about retirement. I don't think you could ever justify breaking the streak for someone even considering retirement already. If CM Punk -wants- to he can probably wrestle another 15 years. If CM Punk wrestles another 15 years he'll one day be considered one of the greats, I still don't see him ever exploding the business but again.. there's nothing wrong with that, only a very select few can.

As to CM Punk talking about retiring his statement was that the one thing he had left to do was headline wrestlemania. He doesn't specifically say "once I've done that I'm going to retire." I'm not saying he won't retire soon, I don't know his plans, you don't know his plans even CM Punk himself might not know his exit plan just yet. I will say this: CM Punk breathes wrestling, it's all he knows, maybe he has plans for something else but nothing suits him more than being a wrestler and I think he is well aware of that. At the very least I think we'll have him for a good two years and I do feel that he has enough support and ability to be the companys biggest star in those two years. At the very least the same level as John Cena but the two appeal to very different demographics.

You can't give 21 years worth of good booking to someone who isn't sure about the future though. More than likely CM Punk was blowing smoke and he'll be around for a very long time, but you just can't take that chance. To end the streak would be taking a very big gamble, you need to lower the risk factors as much as possible if you're going to do it.

Yes I wanted CM Punk to end the streak and partly for the reason you mentioned. The fury that would have invoked in some wrestling fans would have led to some of the best heel heat the company has ever had. Imagine Punk and Heyman on RAW the next night mocking the streak and everybody else that fell before the Undertaker. That would have been gold and CM Punk and regardless of the outcome of the other two main events Punk would have been the guy that everybody would want to beat. At this point I think it would have been far more entertaining over the next weeks, months and years. Anyone who ends the streak would be the hottest thing in wrestling and to suggest otherwise is futile.

Santino could beat the streak to piss people off, it'd be pretty funny too...I'm actually chuckling to myself a little thinking about him cutting a day after promo "Undertaker! I made uh u rest in da pieces!" ...that doesn't quite make it a good idea, you know? Obviously CM Punk isn't Santino but there needs to be a lot more thought behind it than just pissing people off for a year is really my point... I just find the thought of Santino beating the streak funny so I mentioned it.

Yes Stone Cold Steve Austin was an over night success but it took years of great moments to make him the superstar we admire. Yes people loved the rock when he got the mic and I'd say that exactly the same was true for Punk. After the original pipebomb everyone was suddenly a Punk mark. As you concede the way he was booked in the last few months of his title reign was shocking. That booking killed any chance he had of ever eaching the levels of the prestigious superstars we have talked about.

I agree. The WWE has a habbit of killing everything off before it ever really begins. His face run was cut short and a little more should have been done with it... either way they should have gave him more time as a face. His booking as a heel is absolutely unforgivable though.

I do think I see CM Punk for what he is, a fantastic wrestler, a great mic worker and one of the best story tellers in the buisness today. I am old enough to understand that he won't ever be the star I want him to be, believe he could be and I do think that is in part to the reasons you listed: His failiure to handle creative and VKM combined with his unwavering alleigence to being a Paul Heyman guy, the way he threatened to walk out on the company in the past, and the possibility he has nothing more to do other than retire after headlining a wrestlemania.

You're certainly at the least semi realistic, I think we probably just misunderstood each other a bit to start this whole conversation out and we actually agree about quite a lot. The part where I disagree most though is the amazing wrestler... he's good but he still comes across as sloppy to me. I'm not even sure sloppy is the word... what's the opposite of stiff in wrestling? Loose? That's how I feel about his in ring work though, it's pretty god but it's the opposite of stiff (Whatever the fuck that's considered) and I like stiff workers.

He certainly has his moments... him playing catch with the urn and all that was good stuff. Again, I like him, I hope his character continues to evolve and he continues to evolve as a performer. I just feel like a lot of people got too high on him because of one shoot promo and we haven't seen a whole lot from him near that caliber since then.

I do think, and always will think that CM Punk could have been one of the biggest names in wrestling but I also feel now that it won't happen.

You'd have to define biggest. HBK is certainly one of the biggest but he's obviously not Hogan or Austin. I think CM Punk certainly has a chance to slow burn his way to greatness in a HBK kinda way. As far as one of the biggest in an Austin sense? If there was ever a chance it was after that Promo/Title win...the chances of getting the stars to line up like that again are indeed very slim.

They should have ran with it, he could have had big feuds with The Rock... instead he had a shitty one. In all honesty could you say that CM Punk made the most of his program with The Rock? I think he's bitter about how a lot things went down since his title win and squandered the opportunity against The Rock. Does CM Punk have a valid beef with how a lot of the title run went if he is in fact bitter? Yes. You still can't waste opportunity like that.

He even kinda sorta semi put down having the match with 'Taker, that feud and match is probably the only good thing that's happened for him since he turned heel. All in all he did a lot of solid work..it was the best build for any of the Wrestlemania matches. He needs to pull his head out of his ass, and get over him self a little bit I feel and then he'll start getting further. I feel like backstage he's probably too whiney and instead needs to me direct and confident. He needs to seem more like he's ready to prove something and a little less like he's on his period. Now obviously I have no idea if that's actually the case, that's just the impression I'm getting, so take it for what it's worth which probably isn't very much

I enjoyed this conversation though.

 

[scomvp316]

-I can admit when I am wrong and if I made anyone's opinion seem invalid I apologize for that
-I don't want to be one of those internet fans who thinks he knows everything
-If reports are true Punk has to learn to do business if the storyline fits
-I don't think he ever wanted to be heel
-We can agree for the most part WWE is a face guy but Punk wants to be not a face or heel just a wrestler
-The meaning of that he wanted to wrestle both faces and heels
-He wanted to be like more like Bret Hart just showcasing his ability
-The bottom line is he wanted his character similar to the ROH ideaology where the fans decide but characters in the gray area similar to Attitude
-My idea was have Punk Champ until WM 29 and Punk wouldn't have an issue dropping the title to Cena
-Cena's storyline of his life being turned upside down really started at MITB '11
-I just hope for Punk he wasn't politiced against from other stars to ensure certain other talent to remain near the top
-I am not a Cena hater just if the story fits to alter his character
-IMO from WM we didn't see any desperation out of Cena for his redemption
-Kicking out of multiple Rock Bottoms is nothing different any major talent hasn't done against the Rock in elite matchups
-We just didn't see Cena's "has to win for the sake of my career" moments
-Some may disagree with me and I am cool with that but that match could of been done at EC or any other lead in PPV to a major PPV