Live Crowds

[ComeOnVince]

There is much discussion about crowd behavior at live events, televised events, PPVs, etc.

What do you think the main reasons are for all of the DEAD crowds these days?

I've been indulging myself with some RAWs from '99, and there was a hotter crowd for a match between DAN SEVERN and STEVE BLACKMAN than there is for some PPV main events these days.

I have some thoughts of my own, but what do you think is the BIGGEST factor for this?

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

I would most attribute it to the audience for both shows.

Back in 99 the majority of your audience was the casual fan in their 20s or 30s who were there to drink and get rowdy. Today your fans are a mix of families and hardcore fans. While they may be more passionate toward the product, I don't think they are going to be as vocal.

I would also take into account the product that was shown then vs now. Not to say one was better than the other, but back then you had the more adult themed over the top stuff which lends itself to a rowdier crowd. Kinda like how the trashy morning talk shows of that time had lively crowds because they were getting feed over the top material that brought out that kind of response.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

I would most attribute it to the audience for both shows.

Back in 99 the majority of your audience was the casual fan in their 20s or 30s who were there to drink and get rowdy. Today your fans are a mix of families and hardcore fans. While they may be more passionate toward the product, I don't think they are going to be as vocal.

I would also take into account the product that was shown then vs now. Not to say one was better than the other, but back then you had the more adult themed over the top stuff which lends itself to a rowdier crowd. Kinda like how the trashy morning talk shows of that time had lively crowds because they were getting feed over the top material that brought out that kind of response.

I agree that the product of 99 vs. today is a large factor. Sure, it's easy to say that the crowd of one era is different than the crowd of another. But, in the case of the Attitude Era, that was a completely different product.

I can only speak back to the Golden Era, starting (for me) in 1985-86. Those crowds would get vocal, but exactly how the characters and scripts wanted them to get vocal; cheering good guys and booing bad guys. I was 10 years old when I was in attendance for SummerSlam '89 and I remember thinking how loud it was when Warrior pinned Rude for the IC belt. I had been to house shows before, but not a PPV; so, I just thought that's how PPV crowds sounded. Years later, I would read how that specific pop was known for being one of the largest of that era. So, it seems it WAS as loud as I thought it was.

Next was the New Generation Era and I had not only stopped attending events by then, but stopped watching as often as I had during the Golden Era (which I would never miss!). But, the New Generation Era was full of Golden Era superstars and a new crop of superstars. So, the reactions seemed to be similar, as far as cheering good and booing bad, but quieter--probably because it was an era of aging veterans and unknown youngsters, leading to less-than-thrilling angles and matchups.

Then we got to the Attitude Era. Now, those unknown youngsters were major players and changing the game. Cheering good and booing bad was not a foregone conclusion anymore. Stone Cold and others changed all of that. Plus, as mentioned above, the wrestling took a back seat to more risqué angles. This is when it really went from wrestling to wrestling-themed drama.

Once the Attitude Era fully morphed into the PG era and whatever today's era is called, the product returned more to wrestling (and WAY too much talking), but less risqué segments. However, the crowd was now made up of all of these different fans from different eras. Those who are there with kids, ready to cheer good and boo bad. Those who are open to cheer for whoever entertains them the most, regardless of face or heel. ...and then the other group of fans. The ones who, in my opinion, take away from the show. The "smart" fans, or so they are called.

Granted, the lines between good and evil, as far as characters go, are far more muddied than they were in previous eras. But, there are still faces and heels. These fans, far too often, boo the faces and cheer the heels for the sake of booing faces and cheering heels. Their reactions seem as pre-determined as the matches they're yelling through. Roman Reigns is a good example. People loved Reigns in the SHIELD and were going crazy for him at the 2014 Rumble. Then, they were TOLD to like Reigns and instantly hated the guy. The same guy, mainly because he was "shoved down their throats". Maybe he was a bit...but these are the fans who shall not be told what to do! They are there to rock the boat because they think what they say steers the ship. The unsilent minority. They're going to events solely to takeover shows and then run home to see what the internet thought about them. When I read that SummerSlam '89 was a hot crowd, my mind did not go anywhere near "I was part of that". But these guys KNOW (in their minds) they were the voice being heard on TV.

It used to be people went to a show to be entertained by the performers. Now, a lot of people go to the show to be part of the show...and they're not. Not in a good way anyway.

 

[sikkbones]

I'm going to base this on being 4th row at smackdown in sept of 11, but the lack of crowd response can be attributed to security dealing with hecklers and confiscating signs.

The fact you aren't allowed to be vocal like the old days has a lot of people sitting on there hands.

That being said I was heard on TV calling mark henry the worlds fattest man twice.

 

[ComeOnVince]

I think there are two other large factors at play.

1. Overexposure. Maybe it's not OVERexposure, but it's a lot of exposure to the product today that we didn't have back then. You could either watch it on Monday night or attend a live event if one happened to come near enough to you to attend. Today with the network, YouTube, torrents, etc not to mention 58 TV hours a week (slight exaggeration)... the product is everywhere.

2. Desensitization to big spots. I am not the only person that thinks this of course, but I remember watching Hogan, or HBK, or Stone Cold... waiting for that Leg Drop or that Sweet Chin Music or that Stunner. Half of the excitement of a finisher was in the wait. And it was so rare for a finisher not to finish a match that it was mind-boggling and added to the excitement. When that element got ****ed out in every single match at every level of the product, it became a contest to see who could provide the biggest, craziest spots. As the more that went on, the more kick-outs and multi-finisher endings we started to see as well as the crazy s*** we started to see from the Hardys, Dudleys, Edge/Chritisan, Shane, Mankind, etc... everything got over-sensationalized to the point of desensitization and now even quality matches get disregarded because they are "boring"

 

[Psykohurricane55]

I'm going to be old school with my comment and compare this to the Hogan era. Back in the late 80's all the way through the new generation era, you had the same type of crowd that you have today, but the difference was 2 thing, first back then you didn'T have that many tv shows and big events. You had superstars and if you live in the u.s you had a couple of other shows on usa, that'S about it. As far as big events, you had the big 4 ppv, and until 92, you had saturday night'S main event a couple of time a year. So the product wasn't to overexposed.

The second thing was that keyfabe still excited and everybody had a character that the crowd could get into. You liked tag team wrestling, You had the bushwhackers, demolition, the hart foundation. On the single side you had hogan, warrior, jake the snake just to name a few and the heel we'Re believable heel and we'Re really trying to get the fans to hate them.

Now compare that to today we're they're alot more fans that are smart to the product or think they are because they read stuff that somebody like dave meltzer has written as fact so they are going to get wild even if it hurts the product in the long run, because if you're a casual fans and you watch raw or smackdown and you see kevin owens or a.j. styles comes to the ring and act like heel but get cheer for being cocky heel, you sending a mix signal to that fan so when he'S gonna go to that live event, he'S not going to care about the character because he doesn'T know what that character is suppose to be.

The other problem today is quite simple, creative suck. Plain and simple. Back in the 80's and 90'S you had gimmick that fans would get into more easily, that because the creative team was 3 or 4 person tops. You had vince, bruce prichard, pat patterson and sometimes they would had a fourth guy to get his perspective. The talent we're more free to do what they wanted to get themselves over. Promo's we're freestyle basically, they would give them bullet point and the talent would get the point over. Now a day, everything is micromanage to the last second, the matches are rehearse ahead of time, the promo sounds phony because they hire hollywood actors to write promos for pro wrestlers. So nobody is connecting and in town that are less of a smart crowd and more of a casual crowd they don'T care as much because the characters are going through the motion and are not themselves anymore.

What'S the point of cheering for a apollo crews or a neville or pretty much anybody in the cruiserweight division if you know nothing about them and they didn'T give you a reason to care? Really nothing. They really need to go back to letting them be themselves instead of what the writers think they are. If they would have let them be themselves, right now, Roman reigns would be the biggest name in the company and smart fans would have giving him a chance because when he'S being himself and not a John Cena Clone, he's probably the most entertaining guy they have on the roster.

I know it might be hard to read but i have to write this anyway, for casual WWE fans, having a great wrestling match is not enough. You can be the best wrestler in the world but if you can cut a promo or you don't have charisma to hook them in, you might has well leave the company because you will get the silence treatment every time. That'S why most of the mega legends like hogan,flair,sting, warrior,rock,taker just to name a few where so over, it wasn'T because they we're great technical wrestlers because they weren't, and before i get the flair was a great wrestler argument just watch any flair match on the network he did pretty much the same 5 or 6 spot in every match but the rest was all his opponent, it's because they we'Re able to hook the audience with they're charisma and with promo's they knew what the character was and they could got a great promo with just bullet point. In my opinion that'S why you get so many dead crowd right now, because the art of pro wrestling as died and the era of scripted sport entertainment took his place.

 

[ComeOnVince]

They really need to go back to letting them be themselves instead of what the writers think they are. If they would have let them be themselves, right now, Roman reigns would be the biggest name in the company and smart fans would have giving him a chance because when he'S being himself and not a John Cena Clone, he's probably the most entertaining guy they have on the roster.

Man, I couldn't agree with this more. When are they going to learn this lesson.

The best characters extend from the personalities of the persons portraying them. Warrior, Hogan, HBK, Mankind, Rock, Austin, Mr. McMahon, Punk... and these are obviously just a very few of the names that could be listed here.

I want to see more of who these guys are. Think about how much better guys like Ziggler, Cody Rhodes, Roman Reigns, and countless others could be if they could just go out there and be their own characters.

 

[Navi]

I want to see more of who these guys are. Think about how much better guys like Ziggler, Cody Rhodes, Roman Reigns, and countless others could be if they could just go out there and be their own characters.

But you miss the point here, they aren't supposed to play themselves, they are supposed to play characters in a scripted sport. It up to the writers to give them a gimmick that goes along with the person their writing for.

Take Daniel Bryan, he played the underdog to perfection. A small guy who was brilliant in the ring and never gave up. It didn't matter what or who they threw at him, he gritted his teeth and got the job done. In real life he's pretty much the down to earth type guy you've seen on the street a dozen times. He not flamboyant. doesn't use hocus pocus, he's just himself. And you can see that he's the same time of person out of the ring as he is inside it. I just picked his name off the top of my head, and I just used it in another post, so that's why two Daniel Bryan references tonight.

Look at Apollo Crews, lot's of charisma, always smiling, but no gimmick to speak off. Great in ring wrestler but there is nothing to write home about. Compare him to someone like Jericho who gets the most ridiculous sayings over. The fans get behind that because it entertains them, gives them something get involved with. I would rather have a crowd chanting 'Put him on the list" than "CM Punk" any day of the week.

If the gimmick mirrors the person themselves you have a winner on your hands. More often than not they miss the mark slightly. Someone like Jericho would know how to tweak the gimmick to make it fit him. Someone like an Apollo Crews suffers.

 

[ComeOnVince]

But you miss the point here, they aren't supposed to play themselves, they are supposed to play characters in a scripted sport. It up to the writers to give them a gimmick that goes along with the person their writing for.

Take Daniel Bryan, he played the underdog to perfection. A small guy who was brilliant in the ring and never gave up. It didn't matter what or who they threw at him, he gritted his teeth and got the job done. In real life he's pretty much the down to earth type guy you've seen on the street a dozen times. He not flamboyant. doesn't use hocus pocus, he's just himself. And you can see that he's the same time of person out of the ring as he is inside it. I just picked his name off the top of my head, and I just used it in another post, so that's why two Daniel Bryan references tonight.

Look at Apollo Crews, lot's of charisma, always smiling, but no gimmick to speak off. Great in ring wrestler but there is nothing to write home about. Compare him to someone like Jericho who gets the most ridiculous sayings over. The fans get behind that because it entertains them, gives them something get involved with. I would rather have a crowd chanting 'Put him on the list" than "CM Punk" any day of the week.

If the gimmick mirrors the person themselves you have a winner on your hands. More often than not they miss the mark slightly. Someone like Jericho would know how to tweak the gimmick to make it fit him. Someone like an Apollo Crews suffers.

These are good statements.

I'm not missing the point, though. They need to be able to put their own personalities into the gimmicks/characters.

Jericho makes it work because Jericho is doing what Jericho has always done. And he's great at it. Jericho is an anomaly in today's landscape because he's a holdover from the days when the superstars were allowed to make the gimmick their own. He did and does it well, so he is still allowed to.

Same with Stone Cold. He didn't take off until he was allowed to make that character his own by being what he calls "an exaggerated version of himself."

Same with Rock. They tried to make him a "white-meat babyface" and that fell flat on its face because they were trying to do exactly what they are doing today - script someone's personality. That rarely or never works. Rock didn't take off until he was allowed to be himself inside that gimmick. Also see Diesel/Nash, though he's not at all on the same level.

I'm not saying they need to be their everyday selves, but a version of their own personality. Not a forced personality which we seem to see a lot of these days.

I am glad this is starting to trend a different direction, with Jericho still around, Cena gets to do his own thing, Styles and KO came in and are allowed to continue being themselves for the most part and so on.

But back to the OP, what do you see as the main reason the crowds are so dead?

 

[Noshowers]

People need to stop using the term "smart" fans as some sort of boogeyman. Smart fans ruin a show because of reading a website article and then what? Infiltrate the live crowd and cause them to boo a "face"?

The reality is those fans were always out there. I would go to events and go along with it (as I still do today) because I wanted to be entertained, but if Hulk Hogan punched a guy once unprotected in the jaw the fight is over. People in the crowd aren't stupid.

Also this idea that fans boo who they think the WWE wants to win...who cares who the company wants to win. The fans want what they want. This is a consumer driven sport. The NFL changes rules to make it easier on receivers to catch the football because the fans like seeing the forward pass and higher scores, the NBA introduces a 3 point line and a shot clock because watching basketball where one team held the ball for 5 minutes before passing to the center for a dunk wasn't compelling.

The job of a company (league) in any sport is to provide an entertaining product and sell tickets / merchandise.

If I tried my damndest to get Braun Strauman to be a bad guy and it isn't working then I need to adjust. If I tried to get Charlotte over as a face and the fans don't buy it, you turn her heel (which they did.). If you try to bring Roman along as a face and he elicits such a negative reaction you turn him heel and go with it, your work here is done let's adjust the book. If you wanted someone to be hated but the fans love him, then move him up the card against a big bad and see what happens.

 

[Navi]

I am glad this is starting to trend a different direction, with Jericho still around, Cena gets to do his own thing, Styles and KO came in and are allowed to continue being themselves for the most part and so on.

But back to the OP, what do you see as the main reason the crowds are so dead?

I'll give you an honest answer as to why I think this is happening. It's as simple as this, too much repetition. The same match over and over again. Hard to get excited for it.

For example take a Roman Reigns fight. He gets beat down and beat down some more, there is a few rest holds, he hulks up, does a drive by a Samoan drop, couple of superman punches and then spears the opponent and wins the match. The crowd and the viewers know the drill as soon as he walks down the ramp to the ring. You can insert anyone's name in place of his if you want, just change the moveset up a little.

As soon as you see who's on the card it's pretty much you know the outcome of every match. The wrestler's who do manage to elicit a response from the crowd and get them going are the ones who do something original every once in awhile. Kevin Owens is great for that kind of stuff like the night he was imitating Enzo on the apron. It was unexpected and got a huge response.

That's what crowds want, they want something to happen that they don't expect to happen. I was at SS this year here in Toronto. Now Toronto is a bad example as the crowds are always good. At the end when Goldberg beat Lesnar in about a minute, there was a hushed silence none of us could believe it was over so quickly. Then we all went nuts. It was something out of the blue totally didn't expect it to happen that way and sometimes you have to do crap like that. It's like taking a cattle prod and poking everyone with it.

I agree that the WWE has to start letting some of these guys be themselves, like the Owens example. When you cookie cutter them and send them out there, after you see it once you've seen it all, it gets boring rather quickly. Change is sometimes a good thing.

 

[therockiswwf]

This isn't a new thing. Crowds have always varied. I remember a bunch of 98-99 PPVs with mostly dead crowds. Rose colored glasses. Russo was horrible at PPVs and booked incredibly uninteresting crap for most of the undercard. This produced a lot of dead crowds.

Raw has the problem of being too long. It wears out the crowd. PPVs avoid this by mostly having big matches/stars on for most of the event. Raw cannot do that on TV and have to use lesser stars in drawn out segments. The Raw roster isn't big enough to feature unique matches every week. That 3rd hour just kills them. It is hard to keep up momentum with that long of a show.

Smackdown is chugging along nicely with good crowds. They still run into problems with lack of depth leading to lesser crowds sometimes. Otherwise I don't remember SD having dead crowds in large bunches.

The crowd will react if they have something to react to. Same as they always have. There are crowds that are dead and crowds that react to everything. It depends on the product (not always) and place (not always). A lot of people just remember the pops of yesteryear and not the full show.

 

[Psykohurricane55]

i wanted to start a thread on this but since their already one about this subject might as well post it here.

I was listening to the jim cornette experience this week and one of the subject that he was talking about is if today'S wrestlers takes the wrestling business seriously. And after listening to his argument about the subject, i got me thinking that he does have a point and that technicly, you can'T really blame the fans for reacting or not reacting because the wrestlers don't take what they are doing seriously so why would the fans give a damn.

Today's wrestlers would rather play video games backstage and let the creative teams do all the work for them and then just recite the scripted promo they receive and then go out and do highspot to try and get over with a crowd that really doesn't give a shit about their safety.

When i look at the WWE roster, i can see only a handful of guys that actually cares about what they are doing and most of them are in the main event picture. I look at somebody like The Miz a guy that takes alot of times preparing to make sure that he gets the reaction he wants every night. The guy might be a safe worker but he hasn'T been injured once since he started and that'S a smart wrestler. When i think of other guys that seem to give a damn about the business, i think of kevin owens, sami zayn, seth rollins, john cena, randy orton, roman reigns,dolph ziggler. aj styles, cesaro, sheamus and the new day, that'S about it in my opinion.

If guys would stop going through the motion and would just take it seriously and do anything in their power to make the fans react like their suppose to instead of just costing like most of them do, you would get less dead crowd.

 

[ComeOnVince]

A lot of people just remember the pops of yesteryear and not the full show.

I do agree with this, to a large extent.

BUT not even counting the big pops for the top guys, there was an ENERGY to the crowd during matches between guys that people didn't give two craps about (Severn & Blackman, and the match wasn't even good, but you could still hear the crowd being into it).

And sure, crowds are sometimes quiet. Can't win 'em all, no doubt.

 

[ComeOnVince]

i wanted to start a thread on this but since their already one about this subject might as well post it here.

I was listening to the jim cornette experience this week and one of the subject that he was talking about is if today'S wrestlers takes the wrestling business seriously. And after listening to his argument about the subject, i got me thinking that he does have a point and that technicly, you can'T really blame the fans for reacting or not reacting because the wrestlers don't take what they are doing seriously so why would the fans give a damn.

Today's wrestlers would rather play video games backstage and let the creative teams do all the work for them and then just recite the scripted promo they receive and then go out and do highspot to try and get over with a crowd that really doesn't give a shit about their safety.

When i look at the WWE roster, i can see only a handful of guys that actually cares about what they are doing and most of them are in the main event picture. I look at somebody like The Miz a guy that takes alot of times preparing to make sure that he gets the reaction he wants every night. The guy might be a safe worker but he hasn'T been injured once since he started and that'S a smart wrestler. When i think of other guys that seem to give a damn about the business, i think of kevin owens, sami zayn, seth rollins, john cena, randy orton, roman reigns,dolph ziggler. aj styles, cesaro, sheamus and the new day, that'S about it in my opinion.

If guys would stop going through the motion and would just take it seriously and do anything in their power to make the fans react like their suppose to instead of just costing like most of them do, you would get less dead crowd.

I completely hear you.

I think this is an awful catch-22 with a lot of the performers who are kept on too short a leash.

If they're never allowed to do anything except exactly what is on the script, then they aren't going to look like they're into it. Your observation is not wrong, but what do they do? Buck the system and hope not to get fired? Hell, maybe.

 

[Bruno's Sanctimony]

If you want to see wild crowds, check out those MSG crowds in the 70s on WWE Network. Or, if you can find it on YouTube, there's a Sammartino/Kowalski match from '74 where the roof nearly came off the place after Bruno was busted open (blatant, obvious, on camera blading, but I digress...) and did his slow-burn 'comeback'.
When people still thought the ring action was 'real', the crowds were maniacal.

 

[ComeOnVince]

If you want to see wild crowds, check out those MSG crowds in the 70s on WWE Network. Or, if you can find it on YouTube, there's a Sammartino/Kowalski match from '74 where the roof nearly came off the place after Bruno was busted open (blatant, obvious, on camera blading, but I digress...) and did his slow-burn 'comeback'.
When people still thought the ring action was 'real', the crowds were maniacal.

NO DOUBT - kayfabe was awesome in its day. I always preferred a good mix of kayfabe and reality. Made for good TV.

 

[ShinChan]

I don't know if it's right or wrong.

But still, I have seen at various places where crowds gather to watch a programming, such as wrestling, cricket etc, I do notice many people totally indulged with their mobiles. I don't get what they're doing there. You have come here to watch that particular programming, so just sit there and enjoy it. Leave the mobile for that time, atleast. You can do the mobile stuff at your home too. There's no need to come if you're just going to more indulged in mobile than the actual programming.

This does affect the participation of live crowds badly.