Let me get this straight, If you're going to retire you're gonna lose?

[raptorsfan4life]

Ok, this is seriously starting to piss me off.... The wrestlers who are retiring are getting shafted like crazy... Ric Flair. Arguably the greatest in ring performer of all time. An absolute legend ends his immaculate career by LOSING to Shawn Michaels. I know the ceremony on raw the next day was great and all but seriously a 16 time champion should not lose in what is to be his last match... Now JBL, if it is his last match, a wrestlemania title match record or something, can a guy go out on top with a win and not what is the most embarrassing match in terms of storyline in his career... If you say that they're putting a guy over, then i say that Shawn and Rey don't need putting over... i dunno, it may just be me, but if that were the case with me, i'd kinda be insulted... I mean, what will Big Show retire by losing to Hornswaggle? I'm not saying that wwe should give them a title, but let them beat somebody to end their career and appreciate their contributions...
Ric's a guy that has made an unparallel contribution to wrestling and they ended his career with a loss albeit to a great superstar but it is simply my humble opinion that this epic phenomenon called the nature boy deserved to go out in blaze of glory rather than simply a great loss and a quote "Better Man"...
JBL has been a good guy.... He's been there for a while and i mean they gave him IC but then the loss just kinda pissed me off...
I dunno, what do you guys think?

 

[The Dewbliners]

This is due to an old addage that says "It's better to go out on your back". Simply put, if you are knowingly retiring, or leaving a promotion, it's best for business that your opponent goes over on ya. It's called giving the rub, and it's very important. It shows that you realize you're done, and wanna pass the torch.Ric Flair gave Michaels the rub, and JBL did Rey. I personally agree with the process, because you don't want an older guy, or whatever the case maybe, going out on top as the world champ. Nobody would buy it, and any promoter knows it.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

It's a time-honored tradition to put over the guy you are fighting in your last match as a way of showing respect to the business on your way out. This is why Flair lost last year...this is why Austin lost to the Rock at Mania XIX.

 

[The Dewbliners]

It's a time-honored tradition to put over the guy you are fighting in your last match as a way of showing respect to the business on your way out. This is why Flair lost last year...this is why Austin lost to the Rock at Mania XIX.

It even goes back to the days of Frank Gotch and Hackenschmidt. Perhaps the last surviving principle of the business from that era, as the kayfabe doesn't exist anymore.

 

[JuviJuiceIsLoose]

What sense what it make for them to win their matches?

If Flair beat Shawn Michaels, it would still be Wrestling because Flair career was on the line in that match.

If JBL retired as I-C champ, it would leave the title vacant.

Plus if he did beat Rey Mysterio he wouldn't have "quit" after being so embarassed.

It makes perfect sense for those two to lose their matches from a storyline standpoint.

 

[JGalaxtic]

I can understand the Ric Flair and JBL situation but whats with Victoria giving the win to lame McCool - I mean it wasnt like it was for anything - just a regular smackdown without hyping a great workers retirement - Victoria was one of the best at what she did - and I believe she deserved alot more for her talent - and about people giving the rub - what about Trish Stratus winning the womens title for the last time before retiring - how come she gets such a victory and leaves? Terrible booking. Though Trish was also a damn hard worker so I suppose they did one thing right ha

 

[Ruc_A_Buc]

It's the way it goes. Always has been. You put someone over on your way out.

Although she's no Ric Flair or even JBL, Victoria was one of the best female wrestlers (which admittedly, isn't saying much). But she lost to Michelle McCool in her last match, which was earlier this year.

Lita lost her final match (and the Women's Championship) to Mickie James in 2006.

Bobby Lashley lost to Mr. Kennedy in his last match (2007).

Even The Rock lost in his final match, a tag match that saw him teaming with Mick Foley against Randy Orton, Batista and Ric Flair (in 2004).

 

[Ronin]

JBL posted a blog where he said something along the lines "If I could have gone out against Eddie Guerrero it would have been awesome, but to go out against a great friend in Rey, was just as good."

Someone correct me if I am wrong there.

So this is something HE wanted? How can you bag the decision?

Flair wanted the same thing? How can you say anything against that?

Like what has been said, its an old tradition to go out on your back. JBL is very old school, he'd love it.

 

[kenvin100]

The only person I think that's exception to this rule is Trish Stratus, who won the Women title in her last match...I guess its good ole tradition! If you're gonna retire, you gotta lose lol, thas the way it is..

 

[d_henderson1810]

Does anyone here think that if the Undertaker has his farewell match at Wrestlemania one year, it will be when he finally loses the winning streak?

I think that if there are plans to have Taker finally lose at Wrestlemania, it should be in Taker's final match, and it should be to someone like Ted DiBiase or Cody Rhodes, as it would push them to the moon.

 

[BIGJUICYNIPPLES]

having taker lose to cody rhodes or ted dibiase would be dum at wrestlemania for his last match, think about it, what if they beet undertaker and fail as a superstar? it would hurt undertakers reputation so bad, + undertakers streak is one of the best records in the sport of profesional wrestling why brake it for a push?

 

[tfs706]

For me it seems like it comes down to one of two things...either you care about your legacy or you care about the business. Its no good for someone that says i cant hack it anymore i'm gonna hang um up to be able to beat someone who is gonna have to wrestle the next night. now i love the Von Erichs but Fritz not only won the Texas Heavyweight Championship in his retirement match but he said for the David Von Erich Memorial Show he would wrestle one more match and he won The Six Man Tag Title that day. and while it makes the fans feel good it makes there opponents look worthless well not worthless but worth less than they were worth before.

 

[raptorsfan4life]

well why do the wrestlers have to show respect, can't the wrestling business show respect for the contributions... I would understand if they lost to young stars like cody or ted or kofi etc in a way of putting them over for the future but my problem was that Rey Mysterio is established, Shawn Michaels is a legend, Michelle Mccool was a champ. If this is a wrestling tradition well then it sucks..... They should let their final moments be grand in their memories like all the fans were cheering for me or for a heel all those fans hated me but i won my match.... Dunno just my opinion

 

[LokiCobain]

Does anyone here think that if the Undertaker has his farewell match at Wrestlemania one year, it will be when he finally loses the winning streak?

I think that if there are plans to have Taker finally lose at Wrestlemania, it should be in Taker's final match, and it should be to someone like Ted DiBiase or Cody Rhodes, as it would push them to the moon.

I don't think they're going to end the streak only because they've made it this far. However I do think that if they choose to end the streak, it shouldn't be to a Shawn Michaels or HHH, maybe an Orton. I've said it on a lot of threads, but if Kozlov is worked up right, he gave Taker a run for his money on Smackdown, and defeating the Undertaker at 'Mania would be a huge boost for him. I wanted Taker vs Kozlov this year, even though Michaels and Taker stole the show, simply because it would've made more sense. Michaels was kinda just thrown in and the storyline part was rushed.

As someone mentioned earlier, it's often the wrestler who opts to lose. It says a lot about the business I suppose, that the guys care more about the future of the business they dedicated their lives to as opposed to their arbitrary win/loss records or appearance. To tie in with Undertaker, I think it's better for the history of WWE to have Undertaker undefeated, as their can always be attempts made, even getting people to 6 - 0 at 'mania and then losing. DiBiase could very well be that guy, but it's a long term idea that could help the industry.

 

[Slyfox696]

You don't have to lose your last match. Whether you win or lose is completely dependent upon what the promotion thinks they can get out of your when you're finished.

For someone like Trish, it was better for her to go out on top because, well...who else was left? Lita was getting ready to leave, Beth Phoenix was injured, and Mickie James has recently concluded a feud with Stratus. So, instead of ruining Trish's reputation by having her lay down for someone completely unworthy, the WWE decided they could get more mileage out of Trish by having her win, and then coming back to make sporadic appearances, like the one in Canada where she teamed with Cena.

But, for someone like Ric Flair, especially at the point of his career, losing wasn't going to hurt him. He was used for years as putting people over, his reputation was (undeservedly) pristine, and losing the last match to HBK would only help HBK and the company, and wouldn't damage Flair at all.


So, it's not that you always have to go out with a loss, you have to go out doing what's best for the promotion. And it just so happens that USUALLY the best thing for the promotion is putting over someone else who will be in the promotion for a long time to come.

 

[ChrisKessaris]

Typically in wrestling, especially back in the territorial systems, if you were leaving you went out on your back. The reason for this is because you weren't there anymore and business needed to keep going. It can't go if the guy who's on top whether good or bad leaves by beating one of the staying guys. It makes the promotion look weak. So since the 30's or 40's I believe there has been a code where when you left town you went out by putting over one of the guys who had been putting you over to make you what you were.

And if you don't want to put over the staying guys, they'll screw you. Bret Hart can tell you about that.

 

[TakeAdooKie]

Just like when Hogan left for WCW. In his last match he lost the World Title to Yokozuna at King of the Ring which was the right thing to do, especially considering that Yokozuna headlined Wrestlemania about 9 monthes later.

 

[mrstlouis]

well why do the wrestlers have to show respect, can't the wrestling business show respect for the contributions... I would understand if they lost to young stars like cody or ted or kofi etc in a way of putting them over for the future but my problem was that Rey Mysterio is established, Shawn Michaels is a legend, Michelle Mccool was a champ. If this is a wrestling tradition well then it sucks..... They should let their final moments be grand in their memories like all the fans were cheering for me or for a heel all those fans hated me but i won my match.... Dunno just my opinion

see this shows you don't respect wrestling or it traditions .this does not suck . this is how a wrestling gives back for last time . this code of going out on your back has been around since the begin of wrestling & every wrestler agrees it is right except hogan. when you retire or leave a promotion you go out losing . that is right thing for the business . what do ric flair or JBL have to gain for winning ? nothing at all. wrestling is all about respect & showing respect . you need to learn your wrestling rules & history . then you will understand. see the wrestlers never made business in first plale . it was the promoters & fans who made the business. no wrestler is more important then the business ever.SEE IN WRESTLING YOU START ON YOUR BACK & LEAVE ON YOUR BACK.. that is how it is .

 

[Big Daddy Fool]

The traditional wrestling rule is if you're leaving the company you put the person you are feuding with over. This rule was one of the focal points in the Montreal Screwjob as Bret didn't want to put shawn over in Montreal and they were scared he would leave with the belt. A little different but really the same. What sense does it make to push or put over someone who is about to leave especially with JBL who was a champion and about to leave putting the title influx.

If Flair didn't get to leave with his hand up what argument can you make for anyone else to.

 

[bulldog76]

Does anyone here think that if the Undertaker has his farewell match at Wrestlemania one year, it will be when he finally loses the winning streak?

I think that if there are plans to have Taker finally lose at Wrestlemania, it should be in Taker's final match, and it should be to someone like Ted DiBiase or Cody Rhodes, as it would push them to the moon.

I doubt Taker will want to give up the streak to someone who could easily screw it up. He will probably want to give it to someone who has proven loyalty, dedication, and is worthy of his respect. Funny thing is I wondered if he were to give it to Kane. Someone who could use the rub but has been around long enough to show his dedication.

He put over Lesnar huge and look at Brock now. Many other people have failed to capitalize on getting a rub from the Deadman.

The biggest name to refuse to lose his last match that I can think of is Hogan. He refused to put Michaels or Orton over. That kind of got me because that would have been another notch in the legend killer's belt.

 

[LokiCobain]

The biggest name to refuse to lose his last match that I can think of is Hogan. He refused to put Michaels or Orton over. That kind of got me because that would have been another notch in the legend killer's belt.

Hogan was originally supposed to have his last match against The Rock, who he did let win at Wrestlemania 18. He wasn't supposed to keep going back. The first time he left WWE to go to WCW, he lost the title on his final PPV to Yokozuna. The appearances he made later in his career weren't to put people over, it was just to sell. Shawn Michaels by then didn't need to be put over, nor do I think he should've been the one to have the final match against Flair. That should've been a young guy (Orton), not someone already with a Hall of Fame career. Orton did give Hulk Hogan an RKO on Saturday Night's Main Event, but that was pretty much the extent. Hogan wasn't part of the business anymore then, so, like Ricky Steamboat, he's just there for the fans, not for the other superstars.

 

[Dave]

Ok, this is seriously starting to piss me off.... The wrestlers who are retiring are getting shafted like crazy... Ric Flair. Arguably the greatest in ring performer of all time. An absolute legend ends his immaculate career by LOSING to Shawn Michaels. I know the ceremony on raw the next day was great and all but seriously a 16 time champion should not lose in what is to be his last match... Now JBL, if it is his last match, a wrestlemania title match record or something, can a guy go out on top with a win and not what is the most embarrassing match in terms of storyline in his career... If you say that they're putting a guy over, then i say that Shawn and Rey don't need putting over... i dunno, it may just be me, but if that were the case with me, i'd kinda be insulted... I mean, what will Big Show retire by losing to Hornswaggle? I'm not saying that wwe should give them a title, but let them beat somebody to end their career and appreciate their contributions...
Ric's a guy that has made an unparallel contribution to wrestling and they ended his career with a loss albeit to a great superstar but it is simply my humble opinion that this epic phenomenon called the nature boy deserved to go out in blaze of glory rather than simply a great loss and a quote "Better Man"...
JBL has been a good guy.... He's been there for a while and i mean they gave him IC but then the loss just kinda pissed me off...
I dunno, what do you guys think?

The thing about the guys you mention is that they can be explained very easily. Flair for one. Flair only lost when he was retiring because he had too, that was the angle. Flair had to lose in order for him to leave the WWE. That is why he lost. He may have won and retired anyway but what would that have done for anyone really? After Micheals beat Flair, it set up the Micheal's/Batista angle, this wouldn't have been possible if he had won. JBL is the same, Mysterio can now go on as the IC champion. Remember, no one really knew that this was gonna be his last match. We speculated but we didn't know. Losing in those circumstances pushed JBL to retire and they would have been hard pressed to explain why the IC champion was leaving the company.

I do agree with you that if it's known that it's gonna be someones last match, then they should win. This is the case with Victoria. Everyone knew she was leaving and she still lost.

 

[bulldog76]

Hogan was originally supposed to have his last match against The Rock, who he did let win at Wrestlemania 18. He wasn't supposed to keep going back. The first time he left WWE to go to WCW, he lost the title on his final PPV to Yokozuna. The appearances he made later in his career weren't to put people over, it was just to sell. Shawn Michaels by then didn't need to be put over, nor do I think he should've been the one to have the final match against Flair. That should've been a young guy (Orton), not someone already with a Hall of Fame career. Orton did give Hulk Hogan an RKO on Saturday Night's Main Event, but that was pretty much the extent. Hogan wasn't part of the business anymore then, so, like Ricky Steamboat, he's just there for the fans, not for the other superstars.

Why did Hogan get the title a month later if his last match was supposed to be at Mania 18? I commend him on putting over Yoko. I commend him for for his selling Lesnar. I understand he came back to sell so he could cash in. Hogan is smart. Very smart; especially when it comes to his character. Micheals didn't need to be put over but the guy leaving should always get the guy who is staying over. Age-old wrestling that makes perfect sense.

How credible does your talent look when they are getting buried by has-beens? Near 60 year-old Flair beating Michaels? That would make Michaels look real credible wouldn't it. While Michaels didn't need the wins over either, it makes him look significantly weaker if he loses. Did you notice that in all of Flair's wins leading up to Mania, that he either had help or won in unorthodox ways (count-out against Umaga). Flair wanted it.

Foley comes back to get guys to a new level and does really well. He does enough to make you believe he is dangerous but being far past his prime, he just couldn't hang with the Triple Hs, Ortons, or Edges anymore. Credibility is important. It is why McMahons don't go over cleanly. Funk, Foley, Flair, Rock..., they understand that when you leave, make the other guy look great.

 

[raptorsfan4life]

The thing about the guys you mention is that they can be explained very easily. Flair for one. Flair only lost when he was retiring because he had too, that was the angle. Flair had to lose in order for him to leave the WWE. That is why he lost. He may have won and retired anyway but what would that have done for anyone really? After Micheals beat Flair, it set up the Micheal's/Batista angle, this wouldn't have been possible if he had won. JBL is the same, Mysterio can now go on as the IC champion. Remember, no one really knew that this was gonna be his last match. We speculated but we didn't know. Losing in those circumstances pushed JBL to retire and they would have been hard pressed to explain why the IC champion was leaving the company.

I can see what you're saying and i appreciate your point. But then i think that with Flair losing it did lead to another storyline which was ok... the batista angle dissolved but they worked it with jericho and i guess they're still working it till now in a way with the legends... but i mean the wwe can create angles and any sort of storylines at any point in time... I guess what my real issue is that let's face it, wrestling doesn't treat its wrestlers that great... I mean these guys are in daily pain, they're away from their families 300 days a year and they really put their well being on the line every time they step in the ring and the pay they receive really doesn't compensate them as well as it could or should... Therefore, as a token of appreciation of hard work, why not let a wrestlers last in ring memory be one where the crowd was cheering for them or let them get the last laugh... I mean from an outsiders standpoint JBL's thing there is a load of bullshit... I just watched wrestlemania and i felt so bad for him... He like wanted to cry and let his feelings out but he had to hold onto his stupid angle and say I Quit... Why can it not be like, i've really appreciated what you given me but there's it's time for me to move on or anything really..... Its awful really cause King and JR were making fun of him too.... i mean i know its storyline but when he's like 60 and showing his grandkids this is my last match, he's gonna feel like a dumbass...

Traditions are traditions but when we've broken and changed so many more important ones, why is this one so relevant?

 

[Dave]

I mean these guys are in daily pain, they're away from their families 300 days a year and they really put their well being on the line every time they step in the ring and the pay they receive really doesn't compensate them as well as it could or should...

no, I completely see the point you are raising and agree but when you look at the salaries of top earning guys like Flair and Triple H, I wouldn't care if I won or lost. For example Triple H is on $2million a yeah and gets to use the company jet, First class flight tickets, hotel accommodations, and ground transportation paid for every week. Flair gets around half a million dollars a year when he was coming to an end. So from that respect, it's unfair to say they don't compensate them enough.